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Topic: "TWO IN THE FIELD"
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
Then WildB said to Michael Harrison, "you ain't right in your head, son".
If I may, I'm sure that Michael Harrison meant "two humans" by using the generic "two men", WildB.
love, Eden
Then why, love eden, does it say:
Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [fn6] hour your Lord is coming.
I suppose it means that two humans will be grinding at the mill? (Why does no one read the word the way it is written?)
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jrlaw
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Of course it is necessary to explain away these clear references to the Rapture if you are to insist it must take place before the 7-year period begins rather than before God's wrath begins thus excluding three to three and a half years of possibility.
V/r
jrlaw
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Betty Louise
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posted
Jesus is my Savior and Lord. There is nothing wrong with having a human mentor. Timothy had Paul.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Michael Harrison
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I suggest you let Jesus be your mentor!
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Betty Louise
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posted
Thanks but I will allow my Pastor to be my mentor.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Michael Harrison
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![[Confused]](confused.gif) Betty Louise:
- (Luk 17:34) I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. KJV
This is a prime example of the falacy of the rapture. This group of passages do not refer to one. The people who are taken, will be taken to the grave.
- Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Do not apply these verses to the Rapture of the church when believers are caught up in the air to meet the
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MY PASTOR SAYS I CAN!!! I trust him, better than I trust you.
betty
Betty Louise, you misunderstand.
quote:
The verb “taken” in Matthew 24:39-41 means “taken away in judgment.” Do not apply these verses to the Rapture of the church when believers are caught up in the air to meet the Lord.
This says do not apply Matthew 24 to the Rapture of the church. The Rapture of the church is:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NLT)
Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
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Eden
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Dear Michael Harrison, you said quote:
And for emphasis, why are two men in 'one' bed? One of them is taken. Neither of these are Christian, that I am willing to accept!
Then WildB said to Michael Harrison, "you ain't right in your head, son".
If I may, I'm sure that Michael Harrison meant "two humans" by using the generic "two men", WildB.
love, Eden ![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
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Betty Louise
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Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [fn6] hour your Lord is coming.
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there is no two men in bed
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Michael Harrison
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And for emphasis, why are two men in 'one' bed? One of them is taken. Neither of these are Christian, that I am willing to accept!
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Michael Harrison
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Concerning those who are taken away, if they are 'caught up' to the judgment, why then does it say:
- Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
It simply sounds like these will be killed.
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Betty Louise
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Do not apply these verses to the Rapture of the church when believers are caught up in the air to meet the
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MY PASTOR SAYS I CAN!!! I trust him, better than I trust you.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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Matthew 24 Is The Olivet Discourse
This great prophetic pronouncement of our Lord extends from Matthew 24:1 to 25:46, cf. Luke 21:5-38.
In this prophetic statement concerning Israel, no mention is made of the church, her beginning, her course, her destiny, or her sojourn in the world, (because these things happen after the Rapture of the church).
Christ spoke of Israel’s cataclysmic time of trouble at the end of the age and warned concerning it (vv. 9-28). The glorious appearing of the Messiah to Israel is described in 24:29–25:30, exhortations to watch in 24:36–25:13, and judgments upon Israel in 24:45–25:30. The prophecy concludes with the judgment of the nations in regard to their treatment of Israel (25:31-46). Thus the Olivet discourse in Matthew and Luke gives us the eschatological future of the nation Israel and, except for the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, deals with the fate of Israel in Daniel’s Seventieth Week after the glorification of the church.
Matthew 24:1-44
The Olivet Discourse grew out of some questions the disciples asked when Jesus told them that the temple would one day be destroyed. First, they wanted to know when. This answer is not recorded in Matthew but is given in Luke 21:20-24. Second, they asked about the sign of Christ’s return. This is answered in Matthew 24:29-44. In their final question, they asked about the sign of the end of the age. Christ’s reply is in Matthew 24:4-8.
We must keep in mind that the “atmosphere” of this discourse is Jewish. Jesus talked about Judea (Matt. 24:16), the Sabbath (Matt. 24:20), and the prophecies of Daniel concerning the Jewish people (Matt. 24:15). The full truth about the Rapture of the church (1 Cor. 15:51ff; 1 Thes. 4:13-18) had not yet been revealed, for it was a mystery (Eph. 3:1-12).
Matthew 24:1-44 indicates that our Lord was discussing events that will take place on earth during the time of Tribulation. (See Matt. 24:8, where “birth-pangs” are a symbol of the Tribulation; and see also Matt. 24:21, 29).
After the church has been suddenly taken out of the world, there will be a period of “peace and safety” (1 Thes. 5:1-4) followed by a time of terrible suffering. Many Bible scholars believe this period will last seven years (Dan. 9:24-27).
It is this period of “Tribulation” that Jesus described in the Olivet Discourse. At the end of that period, Jesus will return to the earth, defeat His foes, and establish the promised kingdom.
The days of Noah (vv. 36-42).
Here the emphasis is on the fact that the people did not know the day when judgment would strike. Noah and his family in the ark are a picture of God’s miraculous preservation of Israel during the awful time of the Tribulation. (Enoch is a picture of the church which is raptured before the Tribulation —Gen. 5:21-24; Heb. 11:5; 1 Thes. 1:10; 5:1-10.)
The verb “taken” in Matthew 24:39-41 means “taken away in judgment.” Do not apply these verses to the Rapture of the church when believers are caught up in the air to meet the Lord. During the Tribulation, a division will take place: Some people will perish in judgment (be taken away), while others will remain to enter into the kingdom. The use of “took them all away” in Matthew 24:39 makes this clear.
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Betty Louise
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I believe the Rapture and the Second Coming are two different events. Our Pastor was telling us just the Wednesday before the hurricane that when he was a new Pastor a few of his board members got that verse mixed up and thought if two people were together only one would be taken, even if were both saved, so they would not golf with the Pastor in case the rapture happend. Of course those of us who believe in the rapture realize that if a 100 people are saved in the same room and the rapture happens all 100 people will be taken. But sadly there are families were only one mate is saved and around the table are unsaved grown children. One of these days there will be a funeral were the one in the coffin will disappear in front of the grieving folks.
Paul teaches us that the rapture is our blessed hope and we can take joy that whether we die before or live to the rapture we will be with Jesus on the other side.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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oneinchrist
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Good morning Eden,
I thought about the prospect of the "believer" being the one who remains and the "unbeliever being the one who it taken............but I dont see how that lines up with Revelation.In the time that God pours out His wrath, (and we know that we are not appointed to wrath) it appears that God uses the earths elements to cause suffering on the "unbelieving". Like as in the story of Moses this would be a time where God further hardens the hearts of those who have rejected His truth....???
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Eden
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Hi, Carol Swenson, so you are "taken" at the rapture and the unbelievers are "left behind", but you do not think that "two women are in the field, one is taken, the other left", refers to the rapture.
To me, since the rapture and the second coming happen simultaneously, the ones who are "taken" are the unbelievers, and the ones who are "left behind" are the believers.
Then you will say, but where is the rapture in this? The rapture occurs when those who are "left" are caught up to meet the Lord in the air and then we apantesis (we turn around) and continue with the Lord to the earth where we walk on the ashes of the wicked (Malachi 4:1-3).
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
If I may ask, would you agree that a majority of pre-trib believers think that they are the ones "taken" in the rapture, and that the rest are "left behind" as Tim LaHaye teaches?
We believe that all true Christians will be removed from the world at the Rapture. What we are saying here is that Matthew 24 is not about the Rapture. It is about the Tribulation. There are other verses about the Rapture, but Matthew 24 is about judgment.
Tim LaHaye is only one of many Bible scholars who teach a pre-tribulation Rapture.
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Eden
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Kindgo wrote quote:
Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture.
There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will.
Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture.
But who is to say how God will resurrect the dead and catch them up into the air and how God will change the still living in the twinkling of an eye to be caught up in the air as well? If God says that He will send the angels, why can angels not be the agents of this sudden change and catching up.
And as for us being "as the angels", we will be like the angels in that we will not marry nor be given in marriage, but we are sons and daughters of God the King, so in all those respects we will not be like the angels. But we will be able to fly about like the angels.
In addition, the Bible says that "angels are ministering spirits unto the heirs of salvation":
Hebrews 1:14
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
So to repeat what you saidKindgo wrote quote:
Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture.
There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will.
Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture.
See above.
love, Eden
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Kindgo
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Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture.
There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will.
Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture.
No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.
Both the wicked and the righteous can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind.
This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.
Jesus returns from the wedding.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36).
At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church.
After the wedding, He will return to earth.
Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself.
Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there?
At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also."
If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Eden
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Okay, Kindgo, thanks for your answer. If I may ask, would you agree that a majority of pre-trib believers think that they are the ones "taken" in the rapture, and that the rest are "left behind" as Tim LaHaye teaches? I'm not saying you, WildB and Carol Swenson believe that, but would you say that the 3 of you (and others with you) are in the minority...or what?
Because this is the first time that I'm hearing about a "division" within the ranks of the pre-tribs?
So according to your version of the rapture, it is completely quiet, nobody knows, no light, no noise, no nothing, what about those cars with Christians driving on the freeway, and is your version of the rapture still at the start of a presumed 7-year period?
thanks and love, Eden
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Kindgo
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Then there shall be two men in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left." (Matt 24:40-41).
Many mistakenly think this verse is proof of the rapture.
However, the ones "taken" in these verses are lost people-those who are not Christians.
In the preceding verses, those taken away in Noah's flood were lost people.
"They did not understand until the flood came and took them all away" (v.39).
In the parallel passage (Luke 17:34-37), the disciples asked where they would be taken. Jesus replied, "Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered." These are unbelievers, not Christians.
The rapture is not found in Matthew 24. Nor is it found in Revelation 19 or Zechariah 14, the other chapters describing the Second Coming. The rapture will come at a time only known by God, but it won't be at the Second Coming.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Kindgo
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quote:
I see. But isn't it true that most pre-trib rapture proponents maintain that the "taken" were the believers "taken" to heaven in the rapture, and those "left" were the unbelievers who then had to go thru the tribulation?
Isn't that what people like Tim LaHaye of the "Left Behind" book and film maintain? But you and WildB do NOT believe that?
So as to YOUR and WildB's version of the pre-trib rapture, neither you nor WildB would consider it a "taking" and/or a "left behind" anymore? And if not, what do you consider YOUR rapture to now be then? Neither "taken" nor "left behind"? I'm confused.
No thats not what we believe. ![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Eden
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Carol Swenson wrote quote:
WildB and I both just said, in this thread, that Matthew 24 is about people taken away in judgment, not the Rapture.
I see. But isn't it true that most pre-trib rapture proponents maintain that the "taken" were the believers "taken" to heaven in the rapture, and those "left" were the unbelievers who then had to go thru the tribulation?
Isn't that what people like Tim LaHaye of the "Left Behind" book and film maintain? But you and WildB do NOT believe that?
So as to YOUR and WildB's version of the pre-trib rapture, neither you nor WildB would consider it a "taking" and/or a "left behind" anymore? And if not, what do you consider YOUR rapture to now be then? Neither "taken" nor "left behind"? I'm confused.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
I agree. But the pre-trib rapture proponents teach that the one who is "taken" is taken up in the Rapture, while those who is "left" go through the tribulation, isn't that what they teach?
WildB and I both just said, in this thread, that Matthew 24 is about people taken away in judgment, not the Rapture.
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Eden
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WildB wrote quote:
Jesus says, "Two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, the other left." In the context of Matthew 24 we must affirm that the one who is taken is taken to judgment. The one who remains, remains to enter the Millennial Kingdom.
I agree. But the pre-trib rapture proponents teach that the one who is "taken" is taken up in the Rapture, while those who is "left" go through the tribulation, isn't that what they teach?
But the truth is that the one who is "taken" is the one taken in judgment, while that one who is left is the one entering eternal life and is the one who walks on the ashes of the wicked:
Malachi 4
1 For, behold, the day comes that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that comes shall burn them up, says the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and you shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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Good post WildB
Noah and his family in the ark are a picture of God’s miraculous preservation of Israel during the awful time of the Tribulation. (Enoch is a picture of the church which is raptured before the Tribulation—Gen. 5:21-24; Heb. 11:5; 1 Thes. 1:10; 5:1-10.)
What kept the people from listening to Noah’s message and obeying? The common interests of life—eating, drinking, marrying, giving in marriage. They lost the best by living for the good. It is a dangerous thing to get so absorbed in the pursuits of life that we forget Jesus is coming.
The verb “taken” in Matthew 24:39-41 means “taken away in judgment.” Do not apply these verses to the Rapture of the church when believers are caught up in the air to meet the Lord. During the Tribulation, a division will take place: Some people will perish in judgment (be taken away), while others will remain to enter into the kingdom. The use of “took them all away” in Matthew 24:39 makes this clear.
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yahsway
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I agree! Good post
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WildB
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Question: I have been taught that the rapture is not in Matthew 24 because Matthew 24 presents God's program for Israel, not for the church. But if that's true, what about verses 40 and 41 where Jesus says: "Then two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left"?
Answer: You are correct. Matthew 24 does not present the rapture, nor does it deal with God's program for the church. In the rapture the "taking" is a "taking away to heaven." But that's not the "taking" that is described in Matthew 24. Verse 39 states: "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away." This "taking" was a "taking away" to their doom. It came upon the unbelievers of Noah's day and must not be equated with the rapture of believers of the Church Age.
At this point in Matthew 24 Israel is in the Tribulation Period. Matthew 24:21 states: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Earlier in the chapter, in verse 15, our Lord speaks about "the abomination of desolation" and "stand in the holy place." In verse 20 He says: "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day." None of this is Church Age language.
These considerations help us to answer the question about "the taking away" in Matthew 24. If Jesus is not speaking about the rapture, of what, then, is He speaking?
Jesus says, "Two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, the other left." In the context of Matthew 24 we must affirm that the one who is taken is taken to judgment. The one who remains, remains to enter the Millennial Kingdom.
Believing Jews who are in Jerusalem at the end of the Tribulation are right where they need to be. "And it shall come to pass in the last days," we read in Isaiah 2 verse 2, "that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains. . .for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem" (Isaiah 2:3). This is referring to that future period of time in world history when the weapons of war shall be turned into implements of agriculture and "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more" (Isa. 2:4). Those Jews who remain and are not taken away in judgment will enjoy these wonderful blessings of the Kingdom Age.
The reference to Noah and the ark in Matthew 24 gives some indication as to the approximate time of the return of Christ in relation to the other events of the Tribulation. Those who watched Noah build the ark knew that the flood was impending, but they did not know its precise time. And yet one thing was sure for believers in Noah's day: they knew that the flood would not come until the ark was completed.
When the ark was finally completed and everyone had entered, those who were obedient to the Lord knew that the flood could come at any time, but even then they did not know the exact hour or day. In the same way the return of the Lord at the close of the Tribulation will not come until the "signs" of Matthew 24 have taken place, but even then no one will know the exact day or hour of Christ's return.
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That is all.....
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