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Author
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Topic: The Sign of Jonah
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jrlaw
Advanced Member
Member # 7285
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posted
TO ALL
The "Sign of Jonah" does not propose a pre, mid, or post Trib Rapture. It simply addresses whether or not it will be a sign confirming the credentials of Jesus to those left behind depending on whether the Rapture is pre-Trib or during the Trib up to the mid point. The "Manifestation of the Rapture" could be different depending upon when it occurs.
TO BETTY LOUISE
Yes the 144,000 are an exception. However, it would appear that they are converted from 'heaven-down' rather than from 'earth-up'. We can reasonably assume that their eyes are supernaturally opened not by a faith event or by the observation of a "Sign". Good comment.
This is a good time to bring up a point. I am exception to my own post. I was a militant atheist visited by an angel. In one moment of time, I hated all religious people and especially Christians and Jews; in the next moment, I was a Christian. I was saved from "heaven-down" by a private "sign". I was told I was wrong and the bible was right. Why? I don't understand why this happened to me but I am forever grateful. This did give me a unique perspective. I know what it is like to be militantly ignorant with regard to this Creation and God's plan. I know what it is to believe in evolution. I am also sad to say that know how the Nazi's felt. This all changed in a moment of time by a supernatural visit and a handful of words.
Yes, you are correct; God's wrath is not for the Church. However, this fact does not place the Rapture before the start of the 7-year period. It simply places the Rapture before His wrath begins and that is not at the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation.
You propose that the Rapture is a sign-less event. This is somewhat the subject of my post and so I agree. This places us at odds with Christian authors such as Tim LaHaye and Hal Lindsey who visualize it as a great public miracle that serves as a Sign to those left behind. I disagree however that the signs of the times are generally limited to the first 3.5 years of the Tribulation. I feel that the rebirth of Israel was the first sign of the times. Other signs include the current situation in Russia and the pervasive moral decay we have witnessed since the 60's.
Also, not all believers have persevered, (are persevering), as they should and Paul never says all believers. The only thing that can be gleaned from Paul's words is "all who persevere will be taken at the rapture" (my words). The whole point of what I'm trying state is for Christians not to make assumptions about their standing and to examine themselves constantly as requested to be sure they persevere and therefore have Jesus in them lest they be left behind.
TO MICHAEL HARRISON
I was very careful to distinguish the types of signs and we cannot assume that Jesus was only speaking to the Hebrews. If we make assumptions like this then how do we know which of the things Jesus stated were intended for future audience? It is clear that Jesus was speaking to all time and so I will rephrase. The Sign of Jonah was the last sign "any" generation will receive to confirm the His credentials as the Messiah.
You also make a number of incorrect assumptions about what I believe.
TO KEITH
Yes the Church has had, and will have trials, testing, and tribulation, but never wrath. We only need to look at History to see what the Church is capable of. The Church is a body of sinners – forgiven yet in need of Fatherly discipline. The Tribulation contains all elements I mentioned above, but the wrath comes later after all else fails and after the Rapture. We do not need a definition of Tribulation – we only need to understand the Hebrew and Greek words used.
The common problem is combining trials, testing, tribulation, and wrath into one indivisible 7-year period and thus forcing the Rapture to take place first. The clear solution to this issue for all sides is to accept the logic of scripture. I will avoid trigger words and restate some of the points from my post in soft but strong language.
• The Rapture occurs before God's wrath.
• The current Church may enter the 7-year period
• Some Christians because of a problem in their relationship with Jesus may be left behind for discipline and/or testing.
• Many will be converted during the 7-year period – are these not a growth of the Church or a new Church depending on the timing of the Rapture?
• I have not addressed the 144,000 in the Sign of Jonah.
• If the Rapture is manifested as a great public miracle, the purpose will not be a confirmation of His credentials – it will be shock & awe and therefore not prior to the 7-year period.
• If the Rapture is not shock & awe, it may happen before the 7-year period.
TO EDEN
I will stick to my use of the word "contemporaneously". The Rapture takes place in the general time frame of the Tribulation. Nothing more specific was intended.
SUMMARY
Many are saying the same thing here. Always examine assumptions and avoid absolutes except where absolutely stated.
V/r
JRLaw
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Keith
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1Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
CHAPTER 51 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
There is no indication in the above verses that anything more than one event is being discussed. The above verses clearly lay out the order in which this event will transpire. There is no secret about it. The Lord descends from heaven first, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God. Do you think that no one will here these things? We already have an example of the trump of God in the scriptures when God descended upon mount Sinai, it was anything but secret. Observe the following-
Exod 19: 13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount. 14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes. 15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives. 16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. 18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. 19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
Exod 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
The above is just a small scale of what will transpire the next time God descends to earth.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
This is the event that Paul is referring to in 1 Thess. 4:13- 5:3. First, before anyone is raised, or anyone meets the Lord in the air, the Lord will shout with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God. This is no secret event, though it will certainly be a surprise to those who did not believe in it.
After the Lord descends to earth with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God, then the dead in Christ rise first. The scripture clearly points out that before anyone is caught up in the air to be with the Lord, the dead in Christ will rise first. Again, what, will nobody notice this event transpiring? That is an absurd idea. These things will be witnessed by all on the day of the Lord when the saved will be delivered, and the world will be destroyed.
Paul’s reference to the day of the Lord in chapter five, is itself a reference to the things which he had just discussed in chapter four. They are the same event. The second coming, and the day of the Lord are the same event. It is at this time that the dead in Christ will be raised and together with the living in Christ, they will go to be with the Lord. The wicked though, will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming.
II Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Again, in the above verses the Apostle Paul clearly points out that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him, do not take place until the things mentioned in the verses above have already transpired. Your pre-trib theory simply cannot be true, if the above is also true. Paul here again is clearly teaching that the coming of the Lord, the resurrection and our gathering together unto Him, and the destruction of the wicked all transpire at the same time. The wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming, which is the salvation of the saints which are awaiting the same.
2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Here again Peter tells us that the day of the Lord will come as a surprise, and the world will be destroyed at that time. He says that as believers we should look for, and hasten the coming of the day of God in which the world will be destroyed, because we are looking for a new heaven, and new earth, wherein righteousness dwells. Why would he tell believers to look for this, when they should really be looking to be taken out of the world before it is ever destroyed? Are you not one of those above that twist the words of Paul out of their proper context to make them say what they wish?
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus Himself says that it is after the tribulation that He will appear. After the tribulation He will send forth His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, to gather all of His elect from around the world. This is the same event that Paul describes in 1Thess. 4:13-5:3. The trumpet sound being the signal for the delivorence of God’s people from death, via the resurrection, tribulation for those who are alive when He returns, and destruction for the wicked.
I Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Why would any believer be ashamed at Christ’s appearing, or coming, if they were already in heaven with Him before He came or appeared, as you suggest?
I Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
What, those who are taken as you suggest, before Christ appears, will not be like Him until He does appear?
1 Tim 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Why does he say in the above until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, if we are to be taken secretly out of this world to be with Christ before His appearing? It is simply because he, as well as the rest of the new testament writers, did not believe that we will be secretly taken out of this world before Christ appears. Thus, they all admonished us to look for the second coming of Christ as the time of our deliverance.
2 Tim 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Paul expects to receive his reward at Christ’s appearing, as well as the rest of us.
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Again, why doesn’t it say, looking for our blessed secret disappearance from this world, to be with Christ, before the tribulation?
1 Pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
More of the same.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
The above is a clear reference to the resurrection and the deliverance of God’s people during a great time of trouble, not before it. Those who cling to the secret rapture, and the futurist interpretation of biblical prophecy, are playing into the hands of the church of Rome, the MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. The futurist interpretation of biblical prophecy completely bypasses the history of the church of Rome, the largest and longest lasting apostate Christian persecuting power this world has ever seen. It was invented by the church of Rome to accomplish this very task. Come out of her my people, for why will you receive of her plagues.
Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Y. b. in C. Keith
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Eden
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According to WildB, this was originally posted by Betty Louise: quote:
4. The Rapture is a blessed hope:
"looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ
Jesus." Titus 2:13
Why does Paul call the rapture a blessed hope? Because in the doctrine of the rapture we find hope for the future.
I looked at Titus Chapter 2 and there is not a word about the Rapture in Titus 2. Here are a couple of verses preceding Titus 2:13:
Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious APPEARING of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
The word "appearing" occurs 6 times in the NT (5 times as "appearing" and 1 time as "brightness":
Strong's Concordance
1Ti 6:14 That thou 4571 keep 5083 [this] commandment 1785 without spot 784, unrebukeable 423, until 3360 the appearing 2015 of our 2257 Lord 2962 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547:
2Ti 1:10 But 1161 is 5319 0 now 3568 made manifest 5319 by 1223 the appearing 2015 of our 2257 Saviour 4990 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547, who 3303 hath abolished 2673 death 2288, and 1161 hath brought 5461 0 life 2222 and 2532 immortality 861 to light 5461 through 1223 the gospel 2098.
2Ti 4:1 I 1473 charge 1263 [thee] therefore 3767 before 1799 God 2316, and 2532 the Lord 2962 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547, who 3588 shall 3195 judge 2919 the quick 2198 and 2532 the dead 3498 at 2596 his 846 appearing 2015 and 2532 his 846 kingdom 932.
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth 3063 there is laid up 606 for me 3427 a crown 4735 of righteousness 1343, which 3739 the Lord 2962, the righteous 1342 judge 2923, shall give 591 me 3427 at 1722 that 1565 day 2250: and 1161 not 3756 to me 1698 only 3440, but 235 unto all them 3956 also 2532 that love 25 his 846 appearing 2015.
Titus 2:13 Looking for 4327 that blessed 3107 hope 1680, and 2532 the glorious 1391 appearing 2015 of the great 3173 God 2316 and 2532 our 2257 Saviour 4990 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547.
Strong's Concordance
2015. epiphaneia from 2016; a manifestation, i.e. (specially) the advent of Christ (past or future):--appearing, brightness.
Titus 2 and "epiphaneia" is about the second Coming of Christ, and since the rapture of the saints and the second Coming of Christ occur at the same time, they are BOTH part of the "blessed hope".
But it is presumptuous to say that Titus 2 is the "blessed hope of the pre-Trib rapture". Titus says NOTHING about the rapture at all, but it does meantion the glorious appearing of our God:
Titus 2:13
"looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."
Furthermore, here is the 6th occurrance of "epiphaneia", translated in the KJV as "brightness". Note that in this 6th occurrence, the Lord DESTROYS th Wicked One with His "brightness" (His epiphaneia), so this CANNOT BE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION:
2Thes 2:8
And 2532 then 5119 shall 601 0 that Wicked 459 be revealed 601 , whom 3739 the Lord 2962 shall consume 355 with the spirit 4151 of his 846 mouth 4750, and 2532 shall destroy 2673 with the brightness 2015 of his 846 coming 3952.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 (without the Concordance numbers):
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness (Greek, epiphaneia) of His coming.
So if this "epiphaneia" DESTROYS the Wicked One, then this "epiphaneia" CANNOT be BEFORE any tribulation, but has to be at the END of any tribulation.
be blessed, Eden
"you can ignore scripture if you want to, but..."
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Eden
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jrlaw wrote quote:
We know the Rapture occurs contemporaneously with the Tribulation.
Oh...do "we" know that? And from what part of scripture do "we" know that? Because "I" do not know that. Enlighten me.
love, Eden
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
There are seven truths about the rapture that I would like to explain in this post.
1. The Rapture is a sign-less event.
In Matthew 24 the Lord Jesus gives us many "signs of the times", yet those signs occur during the
first half of the tribulation (see Matt 24:4-14 and Rev 6). Those signs do not signal the coming
rapture, rather those signs signal Christ's second coming to earth to reign (Matt 24:32-35). The
rapture, on the other hand, has no signs listed for it. It could literally happen at any moment.
Consider what Paul said:
"Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a theif in the night"
1Thess 5:1-2
Notice that the "day of the Lord" will come like a "theif in the night", that is unexpected. A theif does
not call ahead and warn when they are coming, they come when you are not expecting. The same
way with the "day of the Lord", it will happen when nobody expects it.
Understand that the phrase "day of the Lord" does not refer to the rapture. While it is not in the
scope of this post to look at the phrase "the day of the Lord", it is always used as a time of
judgment. In the prophetic sense it refers to the seven year tribulation period. The rapture happens
before the seven year tribulation, but the rapture does not start the tribulation. The tribulation begans
sometime after the rapture when the antichrist signs a peace treaty for seven years (Dan 9:27). That
is technically when the "day of the Lord" starts. However what Paul is saying here is that the whole
thing will come with out warning. The rapture will happen without warning, and the world will be
plunged into darkness and the judgments of the day of the Lord.
So the rapture is a signless event.
2. The Rapture is a sudden event
Not only is the rapture a signless event, there will be no warnings that it is about to occur, the
rapture is also a sudden event. That is, the whole thing will happen without warning and be over with
just as suddenly. Paul said:
"Behold, I tell you a mystery...in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...the dead will be raised" 1Cor
15:51a,52in part
It will happen "in a moment" and in the "twinkling of an eye". What does that mean? It means that
the rapture will happen suddenly, and will only last as long as it takes you to blink your eye. Now
that is sudden and fast!
Sometimes I am asked if I believe in a secret rapture, my answer is this: No, I don't believe in a
"secret" rapture, but I do believe in a instant rapture. A rapture that comes with out warning, and is
over with before any lost person knows what happened. Thus it will appear as if Christians vanish,
but we want. We will just be "caught up" so fast that the world will miss it.
The bottom line is this: The rapture will happen without warnings or signs, and when it happens it
will be very quick. Thus there is no "getting ready", you either will be ready when the rapture
happens or you will be left behind to suffer through the wrath of God (the tribulation). That is why
today is the day of salvation, you don't know what tomorrow will bring. It may bring death, or
rapture. You just don't know.
3. The Rapture is a mystery
Back again to 1Cor 15 where Paul says:
"Behold, I tell you a mystery.." vs51a
The rapture is a "mystery", that is it is a truth that was unknown, or unrevealed, before the Lord
revealed it to Paul. And that is where Paul got this doctrine, from Jesus. Notice what he says:
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord.." 1Thess 4:15a (see also Gal 1:11-18).
The rapture is not to be found in the Old Testament, nor is to be found in the Gospels. Jesus does
mention it twice in the Gospels (Jn 14:3 and Lk 21:36), but He does not explain it or teach about it.
Paul was the first one to mention it in detail.
This is one major point that seperates the rapture from the Second Coming. The Second Coming is
no "mystery", it was known in the Old Testament. The rapture, however, is a mystery because it
was a new revelation from God to Paul the Apostle.
4. The Rapture is a blessed hope
"looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ
Jesus." Titus 2:13
Why does Paul call the rapture a blessed hope? Because in the doctrine of the rapture we find hope
for the future. Not only our future, but also the future of those who we know who die saved. Paul
explains this in 1Thess 4:13-15 when he says:
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will
not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even
so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you byt the
word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord wil not preced
those who have fallen asleep."
The rapture is a blessed hope, because we know that we and our saved loved ones will be raised to
be with Christ forever. It indeed gives a blessed hope for the future.
5. The Rapture is a pre-tribulational
Another reason the rapture is indeed is a blessed hope is because it promises us escape from the
wrath to come. The tribulation that will happen following the rapture is a time of wrath, when God
pours out His wrath on this earth (Rev 6:15-17, Zeph 1:14-18, Joel 2:1-2, Rev 15:1, 16:1). This
time, He has directly promised that, His church will escape:
"and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us
from the wrath to come" 1Thess 1:10
and
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverence, I also will keep you FROM the hour of test,
that hour which is about to come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth" Rev
3:10
The church will escape, be kept from, the future tribulation.
6. The Rapture is a transforming event
At the rapture we will be forever transformed. The Bible promises:
"Behold, I show you a mystery: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed..the dead will be
raised imperishable, and we will all be changed. For this perishable must put on imperishable, and
this mortal must put on immortality." 1Cor 15:51,52b-53
When the rapture happens all Christians, dead or alive, will be changed. Today we live in perishable
bodies, that is bodies that get sick and die. But at the rapture we will have our bodies raised and
changed into new imperishable bodies. If we are alive at the rapture, we will be instantly changed
into immortal bodies. Once the rapture happens, we will be changed forever. And death will have
totally lost its power:
"But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on
immorality, then will come about the saying that is written death is swallowed up in victory. O
Death, where is your victory? O Death, where is your sting?" 1Cor 15:54-55
7. The Rapture is a event for all believers
And lastly, all believers will be raptured. Look again at 1Cor 15 where Paul says clearly:
"we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed" 15:51b
All believers, living and dead, will be raptured. If you are a Christian you will not miss the rapture.
--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Well said.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
Betty Louise went: quote:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
((((NOTICE:He doesnt come to earth he shouts from heaven...so this cannot be his second coming...he will put feet on mount olives on second comeing)
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Well look! We which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord....
Did you see the 'remain' in that sentence? And that 'remain' indicates that we which are 'alive', remain, until those who are 'asleep' are raised. This is the second coming because those who are asleep do not rise at the rapture. They do not rise until the 'end'.
And you say, "He doesnt come to earth he shouts from heaven..." But the verse states that HE 'descends' from Heaven. That is not 'staying' in heaven and shouting.
And we could meet Him in passing, however, our best effort might not be able to clue us in; Because His wisdom is "wiser than men's." And as the post that the administrator of the board posted of a utube sermon, which summed up by saying that "we don't know:" We don't. Worse, we don't read scripture the way it is written and it is possible to build fantasies using verses that seem to reinforce each other. Therefore Christians even, are guilty of what they do in the cults! The 'rapture' may even be a cult notion! But no one needs to be offended. If it is true, how does one 'be ready'? It certainly is not by planning for a rapture. It is by cultivating relationship with the rapturer!
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Michael Harrison
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The Comfort of Christ's Coming
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [fn2] sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Reconcile that with absent from the body, present with the Lord. Who sleeps in Christ if absent from the body, present with the Lord? Either this refers to the physical body, or it refers to the redeemed who trusted in Christ before His Crucifixion. But is that not who HE preached to during the three days?
When I believed in the pre-trib, I always thought this meant that the bodies of believers who had gone on to be with the Lord would be raised first, and then those who were alive would meet Him in the air! Of course, this would be at the 'second coming'. And:
- 1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The dead will be raised incorruptible, and we who remain will be changed in a twinkle!
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Betty Louise
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Icon 1 posted 24 June, 2008 02:10 PM Profile for Kindgo Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote Distinctions between Second Comeing and The Rapture
From Hal Lindsey book Vanished ....and excellent book...a must read ...
1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
((((NOTICE:He doesnt come to earth he shouts from heaven...so this cannot be his second coming...he will put feet on mount olives on second comeing)
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The Rapture
1.Translation of believers into immortality
2.Saints go to heaven
3.Only believers judged for rewards
4.Earth not judged
5.Can occur at any moment without signs
6.Not predicted in Old Testament
7.Affects believers only
8.Before the day of wrath
9.No reference to satan
10.Christ comes for his own
11.He comes in the air
12.He claims his bride
13.Only the elect will see him
(((Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. )))
14.Tribulation begins
The Second Coming
1.Believers must remain mortals
2.saints remain on earth
3.Belivers and unbelivers judged on earth
4.Earth judged
5.Date can be calculated (2,520 days,days after AC treaty with Israel)
6.Predicted in Old Testament
7.Affects all men
8.Concludes the Day Of Wrath
9.Satan bound for 1,000 years
10.Christ comes with his own
11.His foot splits the Mount of Olives
12.He comes with his bride
13.Every eye shall see him (((Every eye shall see him Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds;
and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth
shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. )))
14.Millennial Kingdom begins
I just want to add one thing in here for those who think we will be raptured mid trib or even pos trib.....
Revelation 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear,
and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed:
and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying,
Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto
him to continue forty [and] two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle,
and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him
over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the
Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(((((NOTICE IN HERE IT SAYS ............ALL that dwell on earth shall worship him (satan) ...No saints
are here because the verse before that says those who refuse will be killed
They will be KILLED not Raptured ...not taken out of the way ....not caught up)))))))))If you are here
in Tribulation you will be killed .....
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
(((((THIS SAYS UNDERSTAND WHAT IT SAYETH))))))))))))
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the
sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
((((((((((trying to save your own lives is a no no ...))))))))))being armed and self defense wont work....
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake
as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which
dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do
in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand,
or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man;
and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.
Also read about the two witnesses.....when the Lord says come up hither...and no trumpet ....no dead in Christ rose first and no one was raptured but them alone..
So no mid trib here is there?
Please carefull consider all this...study it hard...read that word carefully......
That verse keeps going over and over in my mind.....Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and((((((( unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation)))))))).
IF we are not looking for that Rapture then we will be here to die for him then in the tribulation...............................
And you will have to watch all the wicked and chaotic things take place.................May even include some loved ones being hurt
Remember ..........he says ...if you love your family more than me you cannot be my deciples....They may put family under arrest and kill them to get your attention....
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God bless,
Kindgo
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Betty Louise
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There are seven truths about the rapture that I would like to explain in this post.
1. The Rapture is a sign-less event.
In Matthew 24 the Lord Jesus gives us many "signs of the times", yet those signs occur during the
first half of the tribulation (see Matt 24:4-14 and Rev 6). Those signs do not signal the coming
rapture, rather those signs signal Christ's second coming to earth to reign (Matt 24:32-35). The
rapture, on the other hand, has no signs listed for it. It could literally happen at any moment.
Consider what Paul said:
"Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a theif in the night"
1Thess 5:1-2
Notice that the "day of the Lord" will come like a "theif in the night", that is unexpected. A theif does
not call ahead and warn when they are coming, they come when you are not expecting. The same
way with the "day of the Lord", it will happen when nobody expects it.
Understand that the phrase "day of the Lord" does not refer to the rapture. While it is not in the
scope of this post to look at the phrase "the day of the Lord", it is always used as a time of
judgment. In the prophetic sense it refers to the seven year tribulation period. The rapture happens
before the seven year tribulation, but the rapture does not start the tribulation. The tribulation begans
sometime after the rapture when the antichrist signs a peace treaty for seven years (Dan 9:27). That
is technically when the "day of the Lord" starts. However what Paul is saying here is that the whole
thing will come with out warning. The rapture will happen without warning, and the world will be
plunged into darkness and the judgments of the day of the Lord.
So the rapture is a signless event.
2. The Rapture is a sudden event
Not only is the rapture a signless event, there will be no warnings that it is about to occur, the
rapture is also a sudden event. That is, the whole thing will happen without warning and be over with
just as suddenly. Paul said:
"Behold, I tell you a mystery...in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...the dead will be raised" 1Cor
15:51a,52in part
It will happen "in a moment" and in the "twinkling of an eye". What does that mean? It means that
the rapture will happen suddenly, and will only last as long as it takes you to blink your eye. Now
that is sudden and fast!
Sometimes I am asked if I believe in a secret rapture, my answer is this: No, I don't believe in a
"secret" rapture, but I do believe in a instant rapture. A rapture that comes with out warning, and is
over with before any lost person knows what happened. Thus it will appear as if Christians vanish,
but we want. We will just be "caught up" so fast that the world will miss it.
The bottom line is this: The rapture will happen without warnings or signs, and when it happens it
will be very quick. Thus there is no "getting ready", you either will be ready when the rapture
happens or you will be left behind to suffer through the wrath of God (the tribulation). That is why
today is the day of salvation, you don't know what tomorrow will bring. It may bring death, or
rapture. You just don't know.
3. The Rapture is a mystery
Back again to 1Cor 15 where Paul says:
"Behold, I tell you a mystery.." vs51a
The rapture is a "mystery", that is it is a truth that was unknown, or unrevealed, before the Lord
revealed it to Paul. And that is where Paul got this doctrine, from Jesus. Notice what he says:
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord.." 1Thess 4:15a (see also Gal 1:11-18).
The rapture is not to be found in the Old Testament, nor is to be found in the Gospels. Jesus does
mention it twice in the Gospels (Jn 14:3 and Lk 21:36), but He does not explain it or teach about it.
Paul was the first one to mention it in detail.
This is one major point that seperates the rapture from the Second Coming. The Second Coming is
no "mystery", it was known in the Old Testament. The rapture, however, is a mystery because it
was a new revelation from God to Paul the Apostle.
4. The Rapture is a blessed hope
"looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ
Jesus." Titus 2:13
Why does Paul call the rapture a blessed hope? Because in the doctrine of the rapture we find hope
for the future. Not only our future, but also the future of those who we know who die saved. Paul
explains this in 1Thess 4:13-15 when he says:
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will
not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even
so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you byt the
word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord wil not preced
those who have fallen asleep."
The rapture is a blessed hope, because we know that we and our saved loved ones will be raised to
be with Christ forever. It indeed gives a blessed hope for the future.
5. The Rapture is a pre-tribulational
Another reason the rapture is indeed is a blessed hope is because it promises us escape from the
wrath to come. The tribulation that will happen following the rapture is a time of wrath, when God
pours out His wrath on this earth (Rev 6:15-17, Zeph 1:14-18, Joel 2:1-2, Rev 15:1, 16:1). This
time, He has directly promised that, His church will escape:
"and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us
from the wrath to come" 1Thess 1:10
and
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverence, I also will keep you FROM the hour of test,
that hour which is about to come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth" Rev
3:10
The church will escape, be kept from, the future tribulation.
6. The Rapture is a transforming event
At the rapture we will be forever transformed. The Bible promises:
"Behold, I show you a mystery: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed..the dead will be
raised imperishable, and we will all be changed. For this perishable must put on imperishable, and
this mortal must put on immortality." 1Cor 15:51,52b-53
When the rapture happens all Christians, dead or alive, will be changed. Today we live in perishable
bodies, that is bodies that get sick and die. But at the rapture we will have our bodies raised and
changed into new imperishable bodies. If we are alive at the rapture, we will be instantly changed
into immortal bodies. Once the rapture happens, we will be changed forever. And death will have
totally lost its power:
"But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on
immorality, then will come about the saying that is written death is swallowed up in victory. O
Death, where is your victory? O Death, where is your sting?" 1Cor 15:54-55
7. The Rapture is a event for all believers
And lastly, all believers will be raptured. Look again at 1Cor 15 where Paul says clearly:
"we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed" 15:51b
All believers, living and dead, will be raptured. If you are a Christian you will not miss the rapture.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Betty Louise
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The Comfort of Christ's Coming
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [fn2] sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
God’s wrath is not for the Church
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/rapture.htm
Is pretribulation rapture theology a new Church doctrine?
Some say there is no rapture of the Church prior to the tribulation and point out that it was not even taught to the Church until the 1800's.
In Grant Jeffrey's book "Triumphant Return", he writes that about 373 AD Ephraem taught in a sermon that there was a pre-tribulation rapture. This writing can be found in Ephraem's sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.", Ephraem said in this sermon, "For the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins".
Ephraem also taught in this same sermon that the war of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38-39 would precede the tribulation and he taught the imminent return of Jesus.
The rapture of the faithful in contrast to the Revelation of Jesus at His coming*
Christ comes for His own 1Th 4:13-18 --------------------Christ returns with His own Rev 19:14
Believers taken to Father's House Joh 14:3 ----------------Believers come with Jesus to Earth Mat 24:30
He is seen only by believers 1Co 15:52 --------------------Every eye will see Him Mat 24:30
Earth not judged -----------------------------------------------Earth judged Rev 20:4-5
A Mystery - 1 Co 15:51 --------------------------------------Foretold in OT Zech 12:10
Christians taken first 1Th 4:13-18 3 Mat 13:28-30 -------Wicked are taken first Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1,
He comes to present the Church to Himself 2 Co 11:2 ---He comes with His Church for judgement and to set up his Kingdom Rev 19:6-9, Zec 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21
Casts Satan out of heaven to earth Rev 12 ------------------Binds Satan for a thousand years Rev 20
Occurs in the twinkling of an eye 1Co 15:52---------------Comes to earth to do battle at specific locations Isa 63:1-3, Rev 16:16, Zec 12:9-10
Jesus descends with a shout. 1Th 4:16 8 --------------------No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21
Jesus comes as a thief in the night 1Th 24:43---------------Jesus comes at the end of 7 years of tribulation Dan 9:24-27, 12:11-12; Rev 11:2, 12:6,14, 13:5
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Keith
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quote:
As far as pre-trib rapture. The tribulation is not about God pouring his wrath out on the Church, His Bride, but on unbelievers and those who have rejected him.
Where do you find this defenition of tribulation in the bible? Observe the following scriptures.
The word tribulation is most often used in scripture in relation to the church, and God's people, not the wicked.
Matt 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
It hardly seems fair that the above people will lose their salvation when faced with tribulation, but the end time church will not even have to face tribulation.
Matt 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
This hardly seems to fit into what you are saying. Believers are being told what to do during the time of great tribulation, which they will suffer, which will be so bad that no one would be saved if God didn’t shorten that period of time.
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This doesn’t work very well for you either, God’s elect are gathered together after the tribulation.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Same thing again.
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Why have Christians had to go through tribulation all through history, but Christians in the last days wont? Why didn’t Christ specify this when He said the above?
Acts 14:21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Again, why?
Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
I guess Christians in the last days don’t need to learn patience, experience, and hope.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Tribulation can not separate the true believer from the love of Christ. To the contrary, it draws them closer to God.
Rom 12:11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; 12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; 13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality. 14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. 15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Christians must learn patients in tribulation. How can they learn this, if they will not go through any tribulation?
2 Cor 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
Again, God did not remove them from tribulation, He comforted them in it. By their endurance of it, they proved their faith.
1Thes 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
We will suffer persecution.
II Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
Suffering persecution and tribulation for your faith is part of what makes one worthy of the kingdom of God. Not by way of earning salvation, but by way of being willing to follow our Lord and Savior in all things, including suffering persecution and tribulation for righteousness sake.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
What will Christians at the end of time not be companions in tribulation with the rest of Christians all throughout history?
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
More of the same.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Again a warning to Christians, that they will suffer persecution.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
How about that, it is those who go through great tribulation that will be before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple, and God that sits upon the throne will dwell among them. I guess none of the end time Christians will be among this group, since they will not go through great tribulation. I hope I’m not an end time Christian, I guess they’ll be somewhere in the back of the crowd in heaven.
The bible does not support your theory. It is a feel good theory. It is not based upon sound biblical interpretation, or historical experiential knowledge of the church of Christ.
Y. b. in C. Keith
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Betty Louise
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Michael,
I am not sure what you are saying but I believe in a pre-trib rapture. I have done 5 studies at 4 different Churches, and am in one that started this last Wednesday. The Bible does support a pre-trib rapture. I am not going to argue with you about.
You are entitled to your opinion just as I am.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Michael Harrison
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Your other post was pretty good!
quote:
It seems that many of us require miracles as signs to stay focused or even to believe. We are now in the End Times and Jesus stated no further Sign would be given to this wicked generation and indeed there are no signs and wonders occurring today as they did 2000 years ago.
You however are as confused about this as you are the rapture. This would play well into the discussion with the chosenfrozen. For this verse, and like verses:
- Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
Mat 12:40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
...this verse was spoken to the Hebrews, concerning the end of the dispensation, only! It was directed to Israel. How readest thou that this means, no signs will be given beyond that point? Is it your prejudices? Is it what 'you' personally want to believe? (How will you answer to Him?) But:
- Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.
Anything under this category would surly be considered 'signs'. And lest ye wish to dilute it, even 'answered prayer' would be in itself - a sign. But oh! There are some who feel that this verse has a self contained 'timer' which was set to expire days, weeks or months after Jesus ascended to the Father (ya hear that Billy?). Personally, I cannot find it.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Betty Louise
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Member # 7175
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posted
I have been taught the pre-trib rapture since I was a kid in two major denominations, but the thing that sealed the deal for me was so many other places are talking about a event that can only be the rapture.
Back in the 70's a popular physic predicted an event when the world will get off it's axils and millions of people will vanish in an instant. She was not a quack. She predicted JFK's death a couple of months before it happened. I am not saying she was a Christians, but I believe that those in that field who are successful are really talking to demons.
Today there are several religions that are teaching that one day the world will correct itself and millions of people who are holding the world back from becoming the "perfect" world will vanish.
Why is the devil putting these ideas in people's heads? Because he knows the rapture will happen and he is preparing people to believe it is not of God when it happens.
As far as pre-trib rapture. The tribulation is not about God pouring his wrath out on the Church, His Bride, but on unbelievers and those who have rejected him.
I do believe that the rapture happening will cause some to get saved. Remember the 144 thousand men that the Bible says God is preparing to preach during the tribulation?
They will have some converts. The question, is whether those who know the truth now and have rejected the truth will be part of those that God allows a great delusion to over take them.
As the Bible says, Today is the Day for salvation.
We need to seek God while we still can.
Have a blessed day.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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jrlaw
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Member # 7285
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posted
THE SIGN OF JONAH
When Jesus spoke, His words were not only directed to His immediate audience, but they were directed to all time. He knew His words were being recorded. One of the most profound statements Jesus made was to the Pharisees and Sadducees when they came to Him asking for a sign. Referring to His own upcoming resurrection, He told them they would get one last Sign – the 'sign of Jonah'. To illustrate the point regarding the duality of His intent, Jesus addressed this group standing before him as 'a wicked and adulterous generation'. [1]
Then, just as now, some are unwilling to accept the signs and miracles witnessed by others. Then, just as now, sinners would prefer not to give up their ways unless they have proof that they will be held accountable. Jesus had already provided them the proof and yet the religious leaders still asked Jesus to produce yet another sign just for them. Jesus told them then, (as He is telling this wicked and adulterous generation now), that no further sign would be given except the impending, (now historical), Sign of His resurrection; the 'sign of Jonah'. This is fundamental to the concept of salvation. Faith alone is our path to salvation. The Sign of His resurrection, by His own sacrifice, was the last Sign to be given for this purpose.
Simply stated, we have to accept His resurrection as the only Sign . . . until when? – until the last days – until the end times – until the 'signs of the times' leading up to the Tribulation. Why; because Jesus stated in clear terms that the 'sign of Jonah' would be the last Sign given for the purpose of proving His credentials and His way to salvation.
It is important to distinguish what is meant by a sign. It seems simple enough but the meaning is different depending upon the context and timing. This is often the case with the Bible, and it is often a point of contention and misinterpretation. For this reason and for the purposes of this paper, there are three types of signs that will be referenced.
First there is the Sign just referenced. It is the 'sign of Jonah' which is a direct reference to the resurrection of Jesus. It is the last in a group of miracles associated with the life of Jesus. These miracles were given as Signs. According to the words of Jesus, his resurrection was to be the only remaining Sign given to the skeptics standing in front of him and to the wicked unbelieving generations to come. This Sign was a miraculous event that cannot be explained as a natural occurrence. The sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus is the very basis of Christianity.
Another type would be a 'sign of the times'. These are warning signs for the expressed purpose of letting mankind know time is short. A 'sign of the times' can be a natural event such as an earthquake or perhaps climate change. Another example would be the deterioration of the moral fabric of society. The key to discerning the 'signs of the times' is the frequency, magnitude, or concurrence of these events.
Yet another type is 'signs and wonders'. These are miraculous events first performed by the Apostles for the obvious purpose of growing the Church, confirming the leadership of the Church, and spreading the gospel.
It seems that many of us require miracles as signs to stay focused or even to believe. We are now in the End Times and Jesus stated no further Sign would be given to this wicked generation and indeed there are no signs and wonders occurring today as they did 2000 years ago.
It is clear from the Gospel that God's plan for salvation separates those who are willing to accept the free gift of salvation on faith alone from those, like the Pharisees and Sadducees, who required more proof; more signs; more miracles. So, where does heaven's patience end and the separation of wheat from chaff begin?[2] We can't know the exact timing, but we know it is associated with the timing of the Tribulation.
It can be asserted that the cataclysmic events that will take place during the Tribulation are not miracles and are not intended to be signs for non-believers. It is war, supernatural war. When God removes His Spirit from the battlefield, Satan moves forward with his plan. Satan fully understands that Man needs signs and he will provide for that need through the Antichrist.
Accepting the resurrection of Jesus as that last Sign to be given, will the Rapture be a public miracle, a Sign?
Based on this clear teaching of Jesus, the Rapture will not be a Sign in the same sense and for the same purpose as those He performed during His ministry. This is contrary to popular perception on the subject, but it is in line with the clear statement by Jesus.
If the Rapture is not to be a Sign to those left behind, then it must somehow be manifested as a private event between Jesus and His own. Either way, (a spectacular miracle or a seemingly explainable event), a secular society and government, possibly controlled at that time by the Antichrist, will need a viable explanation.
The Rapture will hopefully 'take' millions. Those taken will all have just one thing in common apparent to those left behind – a Christian belief and ethic. It should be clear that if something spectacular happens to millions of people all over the world simultaneously who all hold a common belief, it would be considered nothing less than a miraculous Sign from Heaven.
How then can the Rapture be a Sign? Based on the words of Jesus, this 'wicked and adulterous generation' already received its last Sign 2000 years ago.
THE RAPTURE AS A SIGN
If the Rapture appears to be a miracle with no natural explanation, it would therefore be perceived as a 'sign from heaven'. If millions of Christians are suddenly 'taken' from all over the earth, the event will be so convincing a Sign that it would cause millions to convert and believe in God and His plan for salvation through Jesus Christ. Only the Judeo-Christian Bible predicts this event – this is the book people would turn to in the face of such a miracle. We know the Rapture occurs contemporaneously with the Tribulation. The Antichrist would therefore be faced with the daunting dilemma of discrediting the Bible after it had been supernaturally confirmed.
This is a common problem for Christian authors writing about the Rapture. These authors recognize that the Rapture is not a 'sign of the times' and they realize that they must rationalize the Rapture's impact on the antichrist society. How can it be explained away? How will the Antichrist and the End Times society explain away what has to be the most globally pervasive miracle in the History of mankind? The fact is; they can not. Books and articles written on this subject always stretch for the required explanation but fail to present a viable scenario.
The Rapture either has to be explainable in rational, believable terms, or it cannot take place during the signs of the times and before the Tribulation. The reason is simple. He performed all the miracles we should need in order for us to confirm His credentials and understand His plan for salvation – Jesus said it, I believe it, and this is my purpose here.
* If the Rapture is not intended to be a Sign, it may occur before the Tribulation. In order for the Rapture not to appear as a Sign, it would have to appear natural and explainable.[3]
* If the Rapture appears to be a Sign from heaven, then it will not happen before the Tribulation because this wicked and adulterous generation has already received its last sign; the “sign of Jonah”.
* If the Rapture is manifested as a Sign from heaven during the Tribulation, the intended earthly audience would be Satan and his followers and neither purpose would include their salvation.
These points are contrary to popular perception and yet the logic is based on scripture.
THE TIMING OF THE RAPTURE
All, excepting an uncompromising few, will tell you that we cannot know His timing for the Rapture. We can only know that the timing is associated with the 'season' of the End Times. However, there are many who will tell you in no uncertain terms that the Rapture will occur prior to the Tribulation. This is called a "pre-trib" view.
I will not tell you that the Rapture will or will not occur prior to the Tribulation. Matthew 16:4 came to me in a daily devotional this week. The significance of the 'sign of Jonah' with respect to the Rapture became clear. If the Rapture is manifested as a Sign, it would take place during the Tribulation and not before. If the Rapture is not manifested as a Sign, it must be a private event that can be rationally explained and could take place at any time including pre-Tribulation.
Nothing in this document is in conflict with pre or mid Tribulation beliefs.[4] This is simple logic based on scripture; important scripture quoting Jesus Himself.
THIS GENERATION
A popular series of books portrayed the Rapture as a pre-Tribulation Sign that converted many "left behind". In that fictional portrayal, those left behind who accepted God's plan also did it through faith, but they had the advantage of seeing God's hand at work in a spectacular miracle. Remember; some who reject God's plan want or need miracles. In this fictional case, their decision was made easy. Is it God's plan to make the decision easy for those who reject Him? In the End Times, God is separating wheat from chaff; He is not necessarily handing out free passes. This is not to say that many left behind would not put 2 and 2 together!
Although a pre-Tribulation Rapture is possible, it has been shown that a pre-Tribulation Sign is apparently not. Here is what we know or can assume:
* Many will be deceived.[5]
* The Rapture is the removal of Christians from the stage before God's wrath is poured out on mankind's last and most wicked generation. God always removes and protects His people before judgment. [6]
* The Rapture may be a Sign or it may be a private event between Jesus and His own. In the latter case, the manifestation must be secularly explainable.[7]
* The Rapture will not be a Sign if it occurs before the Tribulation. It will probably be a very public miracle if it occurs during the Tribulation.
* The Rapture can happen at any time from just before the Tribulation up through and until the mid point – the point in time where God's wrath is dispensed.
* If the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation, things will go downhill fast and the Tribulation is starting. If the Rapture occurs during the Tribulation, things are about to get much worse.
* The Antichrist, Satan, takes out his wrath on Christians throughout the 7-year Tribulation period.[8]
* Depending upon the timing and the manifestation of the Rapture, it could be possible that nothing but evil would remain and that evil will be shown no mercy. If this is the case, those few who choose Christ after the Rapture will be caught between the Rock of Ages and Satan's hard spot.
* The generation that sees the re-birth of Israel will not pass from the Earth before the Tribulation is finished and God's plan for dealing with a rebellious mankind is implemented. [9]
* Many will be deceived.
It is my firm belief that the generation that saw the rebirth of Israel as a nation will be the last full-term generation of the church age. All generations have been wicked and adulterous. Can there be any doubt that we live in possibly the most wicked and the most adulterous times ever?
The 'sign of Jonah' was the last sign we were given up until the fulfillment of prophesy regarding the rebirth of Israel. I believe that event in 1947-48 to be the first sign of the times and the clock is now ticking. The Rapture is clearly not intended to be a sign of the times, but will it be a Sign? Personally, I think not. I fear that many misinformed or lukewarm Christians will not recognize the Antichrist because they will firmly believe in a publicly miraculous, pre-Tribulation Rapture.
Let me voice my fears again. If you the reader are firm in your belief that the Rapture must occur before the Tribulation and it does not happen that way, you may find yourself in the Tribulation and not recognize the Antichrist. He will deceive many. The same is true for belief in a miraculous and public pre-trib Rapture – if it does not happen the way you expect and you insist it must, you may be living under the government of the Antichrist and not recognize it.
I simply state; keep an open mind. Accepting God's salvation during the Tribulation will be much more difficult than it is now. In those times, accepting Christ will be harder than rejecting Islam; both will carry the same penalty.
The Rapture can happen at any time – at any time! Nothing is required to change in government, in the European Union, in Russia, or anywhere else for that matter. There are no prerequisites for the Rapture except the rebirth of Israel. I was born into that generation and I’m getting old and so time is running out. Jesus told us that even He did not know the timing – He said only God knew. I am confident that Jesus now knows the timing because He will preside and the time is nigh. He is in preparation now – count on it.
I hope the Rapture occurs soon and before the Tribulation. I would like to think the Rapture will be a wake-up call to many of those left behind; however, that scenario simply does not appear scriptural. God’s love will always be there but don’t expect a loving God in the End Times. Jesus is preparing for war and this war will be carried through to completion just as prophesied.
The Rapture is the clearing of innocents from the battlefield – those left behind are not innocent.
Whether or not we see the events leading up to this war is simply not known to us now. Perhaps our desire not to see any portion of the Tribulation taints our perception of God’s plan and God's game face during these End Times.
It is His plan, and it is still a secret so don’t listen to anyone who gives you absolutes or tells you what you want to hear.[10] Be prepared with an open mind and edify yourself with scripture so that you can not be deceived.
Ω
[1] Matthew 12:38, Matthew 16:4, Luke 11:29
[2] The Christian Bible can be characterized as a documentary of God's patience with a creation given the ability to choose between right and wrong.
[3] There have been several references to the need for an acceptable explanation for the Rapture such that it would not be a Sign. In "The Manifestation of the Rapture", I offer a viable explanation of how the Rapture could occur and appear to be a natural "act of God", (in the secular vernacular).
[4] A post-Tribulation Rapture just does not appear scriptural.
[5] Matthew 24:5, Matthew 24:11, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 1 John 4:11
[6] God’s wrath occurs during the 2nd half of the Tribulation. This 2nd period of 3.5 years is called the Great Tribulation.
[7] See "The Manifestation of the Rapture" for a possible explanation.
[8] It may start slowly but when Antichrist’s religion is introduced – no other will be acceptable. However, it will encompass and accept false religions and possibly some Christian denominations.
[9] Paraphrased from Matthew 24:34
[10] Galatians 1:8-9
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