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Author Topic: Forgiveness of Sin
becauseHElives
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Carmela that is so like the Savior,
quote:
If I see someone turn from the Lord, my heart hurts for them and I will try help them see the error of their ways
Yahshua's heart is always breaking over sin, whether it the lost or the saved...because the Lord knows sin separates mankind from His Father because Yahweh can not look upon sin... when He hung on the Cross for the first time in His existence from the beginning of time His Father had to look away... oh the heartache sin brings....

yet there are those that persist in trying to say the person that is saved can refuse to forgive and never repent and still remain saved....

they call it Amazing Grace, I call it Amazingly Blind of the Truth....

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Carmela
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Thanks Carol. I missed that scripture. Sorry it took me a while to get back to you. Been busy with 4-H and homework in my class.

I wonder when a person has the spirit and how we can tell them apart. I mean, I know that we can tell a true christian by their actions, so maybe that's how we tell.

My thoughts go back to the tree of life. If a person is deeply rooted by the river of life and drinking from it daily, then they won't fall away as quickly. Maybe not at all.

Becausehelives, I agree with your post, but to answer your question, no, I don't look for the antichrist or apostacy. If I see someone turn from the Lord, my heart hurts for them and I will try help them see the error of their ways. I am aware that the antichrist is coming, but I don't sit and wait and watch. If I did that, then I think my focus would be in the wrong place.

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becauseHElives
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2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

there are non so blind as those that chose not to see!

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G646&t=kjv

except there come a falling away

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FALL FROM A POSITION YOU ARE NOT IN....

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come the apostasy first,

Apostasy means to fall away from the truth. Therefore, an apostate is someone who has once believed and then rejected the truth of God. Apostasy is a rebellion against God because it is a rebellion against truth. In the Old Testament God warned the Jewish people about their idolatry and their lack of trust in Him. In the New Testament the epistles warn us about not falling away from the truth. Apostasy is a very real and dangerous threat.

The verse at the top of the page tells us that there will be an apostasy that is associated with the appearance of the Antichrist. Most Christians are looking for the arrival of the Antichrist, but very few are looking for "the apostasy" that must come first. the arrival of the Antichrist cannot occur until sufficient apostasy has happened in the world. The Antichrist, who is the ultimate of liars, cannot abide in a world where the truth of God's word is taught. This is why the Bible says that the apostasy will come first and then the Antichrist will be revealed.

Therefore, we must, as Christians, ask this question, "Is there an apostasy occurring in the Christian church today?" Some would say no and others yes. But, as we look for the arrival of the Antichrist, should we not also be looking for the arrival of apostasy? And where else should we first look but in our own house for the Bible tells us that judgment will begin in the house of the Lord (1 Peter 4:17).

If there is indeed an apostasy occurring in the Christian Church, we would not know it unless we first examined the Bible closely and then compared the Church to the Word of God. It is only after truth is established that we would then have a measuring rod by which apostasy can be detected.

Have you been looking for the coming of the anti-Christ? Are you waiting for him to pop up on the world scene? If you are, are you also looking for the related apostasy? Most Christians are looking for the anti-Christ but are not looking for signs of apostasy.

The Bible is God's word and it tells us what is right and wrong. To the degree that anyone disagrees with the truths of God's word, to that same degree they are falling away from it.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Carol Swenson
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Carmela
quote:
So, when did Jesus actually receive the spirit? Did He already have it, or did it first appear upon His baptism? Although we can't answer for sure, if the spirit imparted into Jesus when He was baptized, then the spirit and salvation may not initially go hand in hand until after baptism.
Our Lord Jesus Christ has always been Holy

John 1:1-4 (NKJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us , and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.


The Holy Spirit coming to Him as a dove was to identify Jesus to John the Baptist.


John 1:29 - 34 (NLT)
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 He is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘A man is coming after me who is far greater than I am, for he existed long before me.’

31 I did not recognize him as the Messiah, but I have been baptizing with water so that he might be revealed to Israel .” 32 Then John testified, “I saw the Holy Spirit descending like a dove from heaven and resting upon him.

33 I didn’t know he was the one, but when God sent me to baptize with water, he told me, ‘The one on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I saw this happen to Jesus, so I testify that he is the Chosen One of God.”

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Carol Swenson
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Carmela

quote:
When I read scriptures like this, I don't see anything that says they have to have the spirit.
Romans 8:9 (NLT)
But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)

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Eden
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Numbers 33:56
Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do to them.

Mark 4:24
And He said to them, Take heed what you hear: with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again: and to you who hear shall more be given.

Ah, the favor of God...to you who hear, the more shall be given.

John 10:10
The thief comes not, but to steal and to kill and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have life more abundantly.

With God in my spirit and God in the Word of God, I am living life more abundantly, bless His precious Name.

love, Eden

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becauseHElives
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The Equal Measure Maxim is a regulating principle of the kingdom of Yahweh.

Some applications in scripture pop out without being specified as such.

The Fifth Beatitude, for example, has this maxim as its regulating principle, yet does not specify the equal measure, which it implies.

Matt.5

[7] Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

We should also note that this maxim has obvious implications for salvation doctrine.

If you would be forgiven of your sins, forgive!

If you would be given treasure in heaven, give!

If you would not be judged or condemned at the Last Day, then do not judge or condemn!

If you wish to receive mercy on that day, then be merciful!

THE MEASURE YOU GIVE WILL BE THE MEASURE YOU GET!

The love of the Truth is a must!

forget everything religious institution have ever taught you or one day you may be horribly awakened that you are knocking on the gates only to be told "depart from me you evil teachers"...

Matthew 18:24

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

There is no doubt to what Yahshua is teaching here ...

The certain King is Yahshua's Father Yahweh...

The person that owes the great debt is anyone that has seen the reality of the debt of sin they owe to the King of the Universe and plead with the King for forgiveness and Yahweh the King gave complete pardon because of the Blood of His Son.

But wait let us keep reading....

But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

And his fellow servant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

So when his fellow servants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee?

And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


now I am not going to explain what Yahshua said because if the Holy Spirit can't reveal it to you you are to set in your religious way for me anyway....

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Michael Harrison
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Standing: The 'act of faith' in the finished work of Christ as it applies to the believer’s salvation.

The reason this should be so apparent is because it is not by ‘works’ which we do. Therefore, for those who do not become confused about standing, as though it was a work of some kind, and defeat coming to a knowledge of the truth by wresting the scripture to their own destruction (sorry I had to say all that), ’standing’ is the method of participation in being saved. We are saved as we ’stand’, which is to say that we, ’receive’ the benefit of our reward, of our faith. This is in contrast to ’doing’ as though our doing can accomplish anything in our behalf. Stand! (Have)

We are not standing however, when we are not standing. What is this? Babble talk? Not at all. We are not standing when we entertain the world. And when we entertain the world, we potentially get the preverbal hook in the jaw, which leads us away from ’faith’, without which we cannot please God. We therefore are ‘overcome’. Therefore we are not ‘standing’. [I might add, we are dead in our sins as we entertain the world. And to die in them, well, I wouldn't want to take that chance!]


quote:
oneinhrist did say,
quote:
One side of the fence says that it is impossible to fall away because that would mean that Jesus would have to go to the cross again, but the other side of the fence says that it is possible to fall away and that it would not take from what Jesus accomplished on the cross........ it is my hope that through a collective study we all can come to a clearer understanding of what the bible has to say on this matter.

When we do not ‘stand’ we put Jesus back upon the Cross. He doesn’t have to go to be ‘re-crucified’. There only is one sacrifice:

  • Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

We crucify Jesus by not acknowledging and allowing to be applied, the sacrifice which HE made. We do it! We crucify the Christ by our unbelief which entertaining the world amounts to.

[list]Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [/b]

[Cross] Why? Because we put Jesus back on the historical Cross, and therefore do not bear our Cross. And as we live, He is on the cross. But if we repent, He lives, and we are on the cross. Simple, Simone.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

[Cross] We stand in the finished work.


Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand [wherein ye stand, not rather, 'work'.];

1Co 16:13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

[Cross] Be strong! We are strong by 'standing' fast in the faith. Standing is 'accepting' the benefit. It requires repentence that we may know the power of it.

2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

[Cross] Stand in liberty! Not to stand is to be overcome by the world, with the 'yoke of bondage'.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.


[Prayer] Notice that it does not say to “go out and conquer!” It says to stand. That means to ‘have’ by belief in the finished work as it applies to the hopeful.

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Carmela
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Carol I'm not sure I totally agree with this:
quote:
Apostates are not saved persons, because they do not have the Spirit , Jude 19; Rom. 8:9. They are “rocky ground” hearers who receive the Word with joy, Luke 8:13; but afterward fall away, which is literally “apostatize.” The “good ground” hearers receive the Word into their hearts , a much stronger word for receiving it, Mark 4:20, Gr.
Rom 10:9-11
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(KJV)

When I read scriptures like this, I don't see anything that says they have to have the spirit.


Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(KJV)

Jesus spoke of great faith and of those with little faith. I believe that the people who left Christianity were because they lacked enough faith to keep them going. When times get hard we can either turn to Jesus or turn away from Him.

Matt 8:10
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
(KJV)

Matt 8:26
26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
(KJV)

Matt 9:29
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
(KJV)

The bible says that when Jesus was baptized, the spirit came up on Him.

Matt 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(KJV)

So, when did Jesus actually receive the spirit? Did He already have it, or did it first appear upon His baptism? Although we can't answer for sure, if the spirit imparted into Jesus when He was baptized, then the spirit and salvation may not initially go hand in hand until after baptism.

It's a lack of faith, reading the scripture, attending church, and prayer that is often the culprit that draws people away from God. Sometimes it's even selfishness or pride. In other words, it's a choice. I don't believe that it has anything to do with the spirit.

I use to think that it wasn't important to go to church until I quit going for about a year. The longer I didn't go to church, the less often I got into the word and although I was still praying and worshipping, I began to fall my faith weaken. During that time, I had thoughts of leaving Christianity.

When the spirit of God left Saul, it was because Saul was choosing the world and his women over God. Saul was given many chances before the spirit of God left him and when spirit did leave him, he was tormented for the rest of his life. When I read this story, I wonder, wouldn't it be the same or similar for other people that leave God. There are many people in this world that are tormented. I tend to think it's a spiritual tormenting. Those people don't have the spirit of God. I'm not saying all people that don't have the spirit of God are tormented or that all tormented people are unsaved. It isn't for me to make those decisions.

This is getting long so I'll end there for now. Have to run.

Daniel, I don't agree with people if I don't agree with what they said. No worries there. I have heard many talk of once saved, always saved. I don't see that as being the case.


(Side Note) Please keep me in prayer. I'm starting up a 4-H group for cavies, rabbits, crafts and cooking, but I would like to incorporate God into it. Pray I don't receive too much opposition please.

Thanks.

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becauseHElives
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Amen oneinchrist , yahsway , Carmela , Michael, Eden

The love of the Truth is a must!

forget everything religious institution have ever taught you or one day you may be horribly awakened that you are knocking on the gates only to be told "depart from me you evil teachers"...

Matthew 18:24

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

There is no doubt to what Yahshua is teaching here ...

The certain King is Yahshua's Father Yahweh...

The person that owes the great debt is anyone that has seen the reality of the debt of sin they owe to the King of the Universe and plead with the King for forgiveness and Yahweh the King gave complete pardon because of the Blood of His Son.

But wait let us keep reading....

But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

And his fellow servant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

So when his fellow servants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee?

And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


now I am not going to explain what Yahshua said because if the Holy Spirit can't reveal it to you you are to set in your religious way for me anyway....

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Carol Swenson
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The Lord knows all things. He knows who will receive the Word with joy but then fall away.

I think I just said what an apostate is. I can't say why they are, or when they come to know they are, or how do we recognize them.

I find apostasy offensive too.

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oneinchrist
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Hi Carol,
So am I to assume based on what it states about apostates in your post that apostates(who even received the word with joy) were never given the spirit because God chose not to give it to them for thier lack of sincerity in the heart(interesting perspective)........because an opposite explanation whereby God just decided not to give them the spirit because He didnt really desire to save them would not settle well with me. I believe that God desires to save all men.

What do you think Carol?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Eden
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Carol Swenson writes
quote:
Apostates are not saved persons, because they do not have the Spirit, Jude 19; Rom. 8:9. They are “rocky ground” hearers who receive the Word with joy, Luke 8:13; but afterward fall away, which is literally “apostatize.”
Jude 1
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Romans 8:9
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So, Carol Swenson, you said
quote:
They are “rocky ground” hearers who receive the Word with joy, Luke 8:13; but afterward fall away...
Most of us have been taught that when we believe in Christ with joy, that at that moment we receive the Holy Spirit. So regarding the phrase, "they receive the Word with joy" and the phrase, "but afterward they fall away", is there a probationary period BEFORE a believer receives the Spirit?

Or did the person receive immediate access to the Spirit, but "afterwards" their access was "denied" when the person stopped believing?

So how much time has to elapse after a person receives the "word with joy" before they know they "have the Spirit"?

If you don't know, that's okay, but what say ye?

love, Eden

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Carol Swenson
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Apostasy

This difficult doctrine must be distinguished from heresy, which is simply a belief in false doctrine. Apostasy is a deliberate turning away from revealed truth after it has been tentatively received. There are a number of Bible descriptions of it. It is a claim that men know God which is denied by their actions, Tit. 1:16; abiding not in the doctrine of Christ, 2 John 9; a departure from the faith, 1 Tim. 4:1; an unwillingness to endure sound doctrine, 2 Tim. 4:3; a forsaking of the right way; 2 Pet. 2:15; a turning from the holy commandment, 2 Pet. 2:21.

Apostates are not saved persons, because they do not have the Spirit , Jude 19; Rom. 8:9. They are “rocky ground” hearers who receive the Word with joy, Luke 8:13; but afterward fall away, which is literally “apostatize.” The “good ground” hearers receive the Word into their hearts , a much stronger word for receiving it, Mark 4:20, Gr.

Individual apostasy has occurred throughout history. Jude 11 cites three examples from the OT. Judas is the outstanding example in the NT. Corporate apostasy will overtake Christendom in the last days, 2 Thess. 2:3; Rev. 3:14-20. Christ foretold this, Luke 18:8. Jude describes apostates as ungodly men who pervert God’s grace and deny our Lord, Jude 8, 16, 19.

(Great Doctrines Of The Bible)

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oneinchrist
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Hi Carol,
It is true that I am concerned about myself and others in regards to "backsliding". But my main focus here in this topic is to hopefully obtain a better understanding of scriptural truth as it speaks of "falling away", "apostacy", and "departing from the faith"

One side of the fence says that it is impossible to fall away because that would mean that Jesus would have to go to the cross again, but the other side of the fence says that it is possible to fall away and that it would not take from what Jesus accomplished on the cross........ it is my hope that through a collective study we all can come to a clearer understanding of what the bible has to say on this matter.

Thanks for asking.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carol Swenson
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oneinChrist

I guess I'm missing the point of your topic.

Is your concern for the backsliding of others , and what we should do about it if another sins?

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oneinchrist
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Hi Carol,
Thank you for the post. I do trust scripture in that it mentions "backsliding". I guess the more that I ponder on this topic of "falling away" the more that I think to myself.........the most important thing is that if we sense that someone else is losing sight of our purpose in Christ, that we need to be a source encouragement to them. It would make no sense to me that God would want me to just sit back and be this guy who just makes good assessments on other peoples relationship to God. He desires that I be picking up the shield and using the sword of the spirit all in love and hope for good things to come.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carol Swenson
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Hi oneinChrist
quote:
If a Christian can fall away, then the initial forgiveneness of sin(where one is put on a clean slate with God) is not a guarantee of salvation.
There is a difference between our state and our standing.

Backsliding

In the NT backsliding is set forth as involving a change of the believer’s state before God but not of his standing .

State is variable and depends upon daily contact with Christ, “if we walk in the light” (1 John 1:7) and many other factors of the spiritual life. State describes the changing and imperfect condition of the believer’s soul from moment to moment as affected by backsliding on the one hand or spiritual progress on the other.

Standing, by contrast, refers to the believer’s position “in Christ,” which is grounded in the unchangeable and perfect work of Christ for the believer.

Faith in Christ secures standing (John 1:12; Romans 5:1-2; 8:17; Ephesians 1:3, 6; Colossians 2:10; Hebrews 10:19; etc.), but observance of all the laws of the spiritual life alone assures protection against backsliding.

Compare 1 Corinthians 1:2-9 (standing) with 1 Corinthians 1:11; 3:1-4; 4:18; 5:2 (state).

Backsliding not only results in a changed state or experience but involves corrective chastening (Hebrews 12:6; 1 Corinthians 11:31), loss of rewards and fellowship (2 Corinthians 5:10; 1 John 3:10), curtailment of usefulness , and in extreme cases physical death (1 Corinthians 5:5; 1 John 5:16) that the “spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”

(The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary)

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oneinchrist
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Hello again Wild B,
As far as Michaels interchanging the words "obedience" and "belief". I do believe that there is biblical support for that......not only what I provided from the book of Exodus, but also in 1st Peter.....

1Peter 2:7 Until you therefore which BELIEVE He is precious: but unto them which be DISOBEDIENT, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is the head of the corner,......

Just in these passages alone already from Moses and from the book of Peter I am lead
to believe that there can be a real thin line/almost indistinguishable between what it means to "believe in Jesus" and what it means to "obey the gospel" ......where one is simply just the expression of the other.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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oneinchrist
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Hi Wild B,
It appears that you highlighted a statement of mine in the above post. I believe that the bible does show us an illustration of obedience in relation to sanctification........in the life of Moses........

Numbers 20:12 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, because ye BELIEVED ME NOT, TO SANCTIFY ME in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Numbers 27:14 For ye REBELLED AGAINST MY COMMANDMENT in the desert of Zin, in the strife of the congregation, TO SANCTIFY ME at the water before their eyes: that is the water of Meribah in Kadesh in the wilderness of Zin.

It appears to me, at least in the two verses above that mans' obedience to God certainly plays a role in the "sanctifying" of the Lords Name.

Would the concept be any different if we plug in "obey the gospel" instead of "speak ye unto the rock before their eyes"? I dont think so

Now Moses was only not allowed to enter the Promised Land........how much more punishment for one who rebels against the gospel of Jesus Christ? I personally would not want to know.

P.S. I wasnt sure if you were asking me to provide biblical support or if you were asking Michael....sorry about that.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
My friend in the Lord. You wont get an argument from me. I see that your explanation is not without biblical support.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Eden
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This Topic will probably open up another barrel of OSAS and non-OSAS, but oneinchrist wrote
quote:
If a Christian can fall away, then the initial forgiveneness of sin(where one is put on a clean slate with God) is not a guarantee of salvation.
The initial forgiveness of sin IS a guarantee of salvation, IF one continues to have faith until death that Jesus died in my place.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to CONTINUE in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Colossians 1:23
IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

To repeat what you said, oneinchrist
quote:
If a Christian can fall away, then the initial forgiveneness of sin (where one is put on a clean slate with God) is not a guarantee of salvation.
Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over His own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

love, Eden

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`Seek, and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be opened to you.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
I dont imply that the obedience sanctifies, but that the truth sanctifies when one obeys it.
And what is obedience? It is 'believing'. Believing 'receives'. Reception 'moves', but it does not 'cause' anything.
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Michael,
I do believe that I understand more clearly about what you mean by "having". It is , if I understand you correctly, what someone is given as a result of surrendering their life to God/Jesus and His service for life. Others may call this "born-again" or filled with the spirit or "Jesus in me".

I woke up a little earlier this morning and I thought I might be able to describe to you the perspective that I come from when I try to understand your words about "having".

It seems to me that I may see more moving parts in the process of "sanctification". Let me try and illustrate what I mean by that. I believe that men are sanctified through their obedience (application of)to the word of God as well as by the "workings" of the Holy Spirit. Please dont get me wrong Michael on the word obedience. I dont imply that the obedience sanctifies, but that the truth sanctifies when one obeys it. In my personal life and testimony these mechanics are real to me in the sense that I believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding me and pointing in the direction to go, but is leaving me with choices to make (which I believe are part of the growing process in the faith). I do not imply in any way that you are wrong about what you describe Michael, I am just telling you,once again, that I visualize more moving parts in sanctification. Thank you for the fellowship.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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oneinchrist
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Hi Carmela,
I want you to know, as well as others, that I am open to anyone elses views on what I am thinking about. I just made what some may call a "deductive reasoning" analysis on the premise that it is possible to fall away.......

If a person can fall away, then it would make sense(in a logical conclusion) that forgiveness of sin ( in initial conversion) is not a guarantee of salvation.

Please dont agree with me just for the sake of agreeing. I still have questions in my mind related to this matter. I am afraid to be careless with Gods word, that is why I am always open for more learning. Thank you for the fellowship and testimony Carmela.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
My friend in the Lord.I would agree in the sense that Gods Word is active and alive......but I would not agree if you were to suggest that "working" of God does away with "word" of God.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carmela
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Daniel, I agree with your post. I don't think the forgiveness of sins guarantees salvation. I should have said that before but got interrupted and lost my train of thought of earlier. The bible says repent and your sins will be forgiven. The old testament required a blood offering and the new testament is the blood of Jesus. However, I don't remember any of those verses being followed by salvation, just forgiveness of sins.

Yahsways post told of that man. Deep down, he may not have really turned on God. I know that when I was struggling before, I told my husband that I didn't know if I even wanted to be a Christian anymore. Yet in my heart, I couldn't have turned away.

I wonder if salvation goes hand in hand with a person's maturity? Many people accept Jesus at revivals, yet they go home and they are excited for a while but don't get plugged into a church and eventually many fall away. The seeds sown and where they landed applies here. Hmmm, when I read about the seeds sown I used to related it only to the condition of the heart and if a person received proper nourishment to grow after they received Christ. However, it could also be a person's maturity level. They are both the similar, yet different in a way.

A person can be forgiven of their sins and not receive true salvation as far as I can tell.

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Michael Harrison
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So then, could I?

quote:
Michael,thank you for your response. I sincerely believe that we are overcomers by trusting in the full councel of Gods revealed word and allowing the Holy Spirit to direct all aspects of our lives.

With love in Christ, Daniel

May we change the above to read "that we are overcomers by trusting in the full council of God's revealed 'working'? For HIS 'revealed word' is His revealed working.

When we start talking about the part, 'directing all aspects of our lives', we become distracted from the 'working' in that, we are thinking of having something to 'do' with it, to accomplish it, other than to follow after, as though 'directing all aspects' entails our response to an external instruction, in which our 'acting' on 'completes' the instruction, and something happens, cause and effect, in response to our action.

His word accomplishes all that HE sends it to. All we do can be stated as a though HE planted the trees, and HE nurtured them to fruitfulness, and all we do is pick the fruit. We get the fruit! For this we must needs 'move' our body (or if the orchard is in a cow pasture, we would moove our body), or extend our hand, but we didn't plant, we didn't grow, we are beneficiaries of the "fruit," which all we have to do is accept. This is the concept of 'done', not as though our acting 'completes' (as in 'performs') the instruction, but 'reaps'. I believe in past posts I have called it 'having'?

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oneinchrist
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Hello to my friends in Christ,

Yahsway, thank you for your response. When I hear the words "endure to the end" (which Jesus does repeat several times in the gospels) I see it as a faith that withstands resistance/adversity and remains fixed on Jesus, "The hope of our resurrection". The particular individual that you spoke of that said that they do not believe in the Jesus stuff anymore certainly would be an example of faith that has not endured....I agree.

Carmela, thank you for your response. I am not God so I cannot judge whether or not someone else has actually "fallen away" from the faith (though I can only speculate, unless of course they confess they have renounced belief in Jesus--like in Yahsways example). I believe that it is important for us to examine the word of God to see what we are warned about so as to err on the side of caution. Here is a list of what I believe are some of the things we are warned about......
--pride--
--unforgiveness--
--lack of compassion,mercy--
--judgementalism(not to be confused with discernment)--
--idleness,laziness with our talents/gifts
--willfull sin--
--quenching, resisting the Holy Ghost--
--unrepentance--
--fornication--
--lying to the Holy Ghost--

Michael,thank you for your response. I sincerely believe that we are overcomers by trusting in the full councel of Gods revealed word and allowing the Holy Spirit to direct all aspects of our lives.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Michael Harrison
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Brother KnowHim says that such an one didn't really know HIM. It is hard to say. Perhaps one never did if they are able to turn his or her back. I mean, can one 'believe' without conversion. Surely! But can one be used of God without conversion. I believe this is also true. However, I still suspect there are those who were converted who fell away. That is why we have the message of 'overcoming'. It would be meaningless to overcome is one was not 'converted'. But no doubt that any scripture that addresses one's turning away is for their edification, that they may endure, or at least fear in hope rather than surrender to the darkness.

I backslid once. But I feared. And I always knew that HE was in my heart, only covered up. Could I have gone all the way? I believe that there is a point where the Spirit will not strive with man any longer. It is a verse somewhere in the Bible.

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Carmela
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This is one of the questions we may not be able to answer until after we die.

Myself, I believe that if a person can turn their back on God (and we know they can), then why can't they lose salvation? I have gone through times in my life when I wanted to turn my back on God. I was so frustrated, but mostly impatient, because I wanted to see some kind of sign from God and I didn't. I wanted it in my timing, I didn't want to wait for God's. So, I thought that maybe God wasn't real after all.

Thankfully during that time I never turned my back on God though. I did come close. Now that I have grown as a Christian, I don't think I could ever turn my back on God completely and give up Christianity. As I look back at those times, I realize that it was my own lack of patience and my selfishness that caused me to want to turn away. Like a spoiled rotten daughter, I wanted things my way but I didn't get it so I learned the lesson I'm trying to teach my daughter right now. You don't always get what YOU want!

Through this lesson, I also learned how easy it can be to turn away from God. I wonder, also, if God would really have let me go if I had chosen to walk away from Him myself. My prayer has always been, "God when my grasp starts to slip from Yours, please don't ever let me go." He hasn't. I do believe however, that a person can lose their salvation. Sometimes I think the people that turned away from God have allowed their hearts to get so hard that they are the hardest ones to witness to. Others still have God in their heart, they just don't want to let go of what they want but when a person starts to minister to them, they quickly (or sometimes slowly) realize that God really is the center of their life still. They were just in denial.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think we can lump everyone in one category as "once saved always saved." That's why Jesus says He looks at the heart. Only God knows what is truly in the heart of a person, no matter what we are seeing on the outside.

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yahsway
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We know that salvation is a "Gift" from God, it is Free for the asking/and living

Nothing we do can "Earn" our salvation.

So I was also thinking, can someone Give the Gift back? Can one who claimed salvation for a time just give it all up?

My husband works with a man who used to teach in a Protestant church, was an elder, ect..

Now this man says "I used to believe in all that stuff, but i dont anymore."

Is this man "NOT enduring till the end"

If one is Once Saved, is he Always saved even if one says "I dont believe in that stuff anymore?"

Has this person "Fallen away", or better asked, Given away that gift given to him? He accepted that gift at one time. He was a believer at one time, maybe even produced fruit at one time.

I dont know, its puzzeling to me.

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oneinchrist
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Good Morning,
A thought just popped into my mind this morning and I would like to share it with you.

--If a Christian can fall away, then the initial forgiveneness of sin(where one is put on a clean slate with God) is not a guarantee of salvation.

-- Though this could not take away from the truth that forgiveness of sins is essential towards salvation.

All in all, I really do believe this is where the controversy exists.........but, if the bible does explicitly without a doubt reveal to us that Christians can fall away there must be truth to my thoughts........

What do you think?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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