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Author
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Topic: Inward working of His good pleasure!
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
quote:
By abbasgirl4ever quote:
It's interesting to me that this verse could be seen from the perspective that has been cited. The book of Philippians was addressed to the saints in Christ Jesus in Philippi, not to unbelievers.
A friend of mine holds to the belief that God regenerates a person previous to their acceptance of Him by faith... that man will not choose Him otherwise.
For sure! The epistles were written to believers, about believing, and how to see. But interpretation of what the epistle writers are saying has for ages been in dispute. It is strange what conclusions people come to. However, I had some wrong conclustions early on. But this is why He says "Seek and ye shall find."
But on that note, threading its way through the past, perhaps, two weeks, there has been an assertion that parallels what your friend is insisting upon. Have you read the threads, "Universalism," by Carol Swenson, or "once saved always saved," by sweetdreams. There are others.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by abbasgirl4ever:
It's interesting to me that this verse could be seen from the perspective that has been cited. The book of Philippians was addressed to the saints in Christ Jesus in Philippi, not to unbelievers.
A friend of mine holds to the belief that God regenerates a person previous to their acceptance of Him by faith... that man will not choose Him otherwise. She cites Romans 3:11 and states that none seek God because no one will without a heart changed by the Holy Spirit. She believes that faith is a gift that comes out of rebirth. She's certainly not alone. The likes of R.C. Sproul and John Piper would claim the same. She would say that man cannot choose God (which is considered a work) without first being chosen by God and regenerated by the Holy Spirit. In this way, a person has now received grace and the faith to respond to God.
She and I have had many discussions (not arguments) about this subject because it bleeds into the way we view other areas of our faith like our daily sanctification. Though I disagree with her, I find it fascinating that people can hold so steadfastly on both ends of the discussion.
I appreciate your expression of this ageless question and agree with you.
Welcome to the board. I like your dispensation way of approach.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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abbasgirl4ever
Community Member
Member # 7336
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posted
It's interesting to me that this verse could be seen from the perspective that has been cited. The book of Philippians was addressed to the saints in Christ Jesus in Philippi, not to unbelievers.
A friend of mine holds to the belief that God regenerates a person previous to their acceptance of Him by faith... that man will not choose Him otherwise. She cites Romans 3:11 and states that none seek God because no one will without a heart changed by the Holy Spirit. She believes that faith is a gift that comes out of rebirth. She's certainly not alone. The likes of R.C. Sproul and John Piper would claim the same. She would say that man cannot choose God (which is considered a work) without first being chosen by God and regenerated by the Holy Spirit. In this way, a person has now received grace and the faith to respond to God.
She and I have had many discussions (not arguments) about this subject because it bleeds into the way we view other areas of our faith like our daily sanctification. Though I disagree with her, I find it fascinating that people can hold so steadfastly on both ends of the discussion.
I appreciate your expression of this ageless question and agree with you.
Posts: 7 | From: West Virginia | Registered: Aug 2008
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
Michael
quote:
In consideration of the question of man’s freewill, and whether he is able to ’choose’ God that he might be saved, I have pondered how that anyone could come to the conclusion that man cannot choose God on his own (notice that I didn't say 'serve' God), and therefore God must necessarily have perhaps ‘saved’ someone before they have even acknowledged Him. For it is most strange that any should believe this to be the case.
I agree with you on this. We aren't just plucked off a tree like a piece of mindless fruit. We are not fruit, we are human beings. The Almighty Creator gave us minds, emotions, will, and responsibility.
There were two trees in Eden, and a choice . He didn't have to put the tree of the Knowledge Of Good And Evil there where Adam and Eve could reach it, did He?
Love cannot be compelled. God wants people who freely choose to love Him and obey Him. People who enjoy serving Him.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
wow, nice, Michael H. quote:
Mosellanus who was moderator, proclaimed this statement before the opening volley:
Mosellanus ascended the pulpit to remind the theologians, by the duke’s order, in what manner they were to dispute. “If you fall to quarrelling,” said the speaker, “what difference will there be between a theologian in discussion and a shameless duelist? What is your object in gaining the victory, if it be not to recover a brother from the error of his ways? … It appears to me that each of you should desire less to conquer, than to be conquered!”[/quote]So do we here at this board believe that we are unique in our discussing the doctrine of the Bible? And notice how he summed it up! The discussion continued: quote:
The subject of discussion between Eck and Carlstadt was important. “Man’s will, before his conversion,” said Carlstadt, “can perform no good work: every good work comes entirely and exclusively from God, who gives man first the will to do, and then the power of accomplishing.” This truth proclaimed by Scripture, says: “It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure”; and by Saint Augustine, who in his dispute with the Pelagians, had enunciated it in nearly the same terms. Every work in which the love of god and obedience toward Him do not exist is deprived in the eyes of the Almighty of all that can render it good, even should it originate in the best of human motives. Now there is in man a natural opposition to God - an opposition that the unaided strength of man cannot surmount. He has neither the will or the power to overcome it. This must therefore be effected by the divine will.
Timely text. Last week I suddenly read that God "philein loves" the world, but that God "agape loves the church".
And it appears that God chooses some of the sinful rotting fruit on the tree, for no other reason than that God wants some sons and daughters.
But you have helped remind me that there is no love, there is no peace, there is no kindness, like the Kindness of the Lord, in sinful man. We really don't have ANYTHING GOOD to "be kind with".
So God does truly have to give us all of those traits, thru belief in Jesus, for we DO NOT HAVE any of it.
be blessed in Jesus,
Eden
"Jesus choosing me is the best thing that has ever happened to me"
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
In chapter 31 “Eck and Carlstadt on free will,” in the book, “The Life and Times of Martin Luther,” there was to be a discussion of those things concerning ‘doctrine’ which first took place between the defenders of the old, and the new. Mosellanus who was moderator, proclaimed this statement before the opening volley:
quote:
Mosellanus ascended the pulpit to remind the theologians, by the duke’s order, in what manner they were to dispute. “If you fall to quarrelling,” said the speaker, “what difference will there be between a theologian in discussion and a shameless duelist? What is your object in gaining the victory, if it be not to recover a brother from the error of his ways? … It appears to me that each of you should desire less to conquer, than to be conquered!”
So do we here at this board believe that we are unique in our discussing the doctrine of the Bible? And notice how he summed it up! The discussion continued:
quote:
The subject of discussion between Eck and Carlstadt was important. “Man’s will, before his conversion,” said Carlstadt, “can perform no good work: every good work comes entirely and exclusively from God, who gives man first the will to do, and then the power of accomplishing.” This truth proclaimed by Scripture, says: “It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure”; and by Saint Augustine, who in his dispute with the Pelagians, had enunciated it in nearly the same terms. Every work in which the love of god and obedience toward Him do not exist is deprived in the eyes of the Almighty of all that can render it good, even should it originate in the best of human motives. Now there is in man a natural opposition to God - an opposition that the unaided strength of man cannot surmount. He has neither the will or the power to overcome it. This must therefore be effected by the divine will.
In consideration of the question of man’s freewill, and whether he is able to ’choose’ God that he might be saved, I have pondered how that anyone could come to the conclusion that man cannot choose God on his own (notice that I didn't say 'serve' God), and therefore God must necessarily have perhaps ‘saved’ someone before they have even acknowledged Him. For it is most strange that any should believe this to be the case. Having revisited this biography on Martin Luther which I read many years ago, I believe perhaps I have found how one could come to such conclusion. It is in the reading of the passage of scripture, “It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure,” which I have found in this discussion between Eck and Carlstadt, in Luther’s day, which passage the interpreters thereof apply to someone ‘before’ they are saved. This they do intending that the believer, being already predestined, is ‘worked in’ by God, that God’s will is performed in that one to the end that they ‘choose’ Him.
But this is much too direct in my opinion, concerning God’s direct dealings with any man. I agree that it may be true if it were to be considered that from a distance, God coaches the individual that he may be able to ‘choose’ Him, including that by circumstance he is affected. However that God was in direct dealing with that one to effect the change is not so! That would be overriding of the will.
So! I believe that notion is flawed. The question therefore is whether that passage has meaning directly applicable to someone before someone is saved. For that is how it is used to come to the conclusion that some have. But I will assert that the passage is to be understood to be in effect only ’after’ one is born again! Therefore the reading of that passage would effectively be understood to say:
“It is God who is now ’in’ you, who worketh both His will and good pleasure to be done in you by Him.”
Therefore it cannot perhaps be indicitave that God pre-saved someone, and that this is the method by which He causes the one's awareness of Him. For it is about the visitation of God to the soul and spirit of the individual after that he or she has surrendered to Him by faith! Therefore know they Him, that they are able to live their lives in praise of Him, as HE works within them, to will and to do.
Amen!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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