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Author
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Topic: What must I do to be saved?
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Zeena
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Member # 7223
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
So when we do what Jesus is not doing, and does not do, we sin. But if we are doing what Jesus is doing, we are therefore "One" with Him, which is paramount. Otherwise we sin when we are not doing what He is doing, as "One" with Him, by being 'double' which is 'evil', which is being separate from, or not one with, Him. Therefore not to be one with Him is to do what HE doesn't do, or have what is not ours, which sins against our neighbor, therefore against God.
Shall you now works the works of God Michael?
John 6:28-40
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
But by His death, and resurrection, and by faith, our baptism into His death, and resurrection from the dead, we are one with Him as we accept His whole will.
Not as, but once for all by faith in His Name.
1 Corinthians 6:15-20
Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I then take away the members of Christ, and make them members of a harlot? God forbid. Or know ye not that he that is joined to a harlot is one body? for, The twain, saith he, shall become one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own; for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.
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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
quote:
Of Carol: quote:
The sinfulness of sin lies in the fact that it is against God, even when the wrong we do is to others or ourselves (Genesis 39:9; Psalm 51:4).
So when we do what Jesus is not doing, and does not do, we sin. But if we are doing what Jesus is doing, we are therefore "One" with Him, which is paramount. Otherwise we sin when we are not doing what He is doing, as "One" with Him, by being 'double' which is 'evil', which is being separate from, or not one with, Him. Therefore not to be one with Him is to do what HE doesn't do, or have what is not ours, which sins against our neighbor, therefore against God.
But by His death, and resurrection, and by faith, our baptism into His death, and resurrection from the dead, we are one with Him as we accept His whole will.
Galatians 5:19 - 26 (NLT)
19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
22 But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control . There is no law against these things! 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25 Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives. 26 Let us not become conceited, or provoke one another, or be jealous of one another.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
Of Carol: quote:
The sinfulness of sin lies in the fact that it is against God, even when the wrong we do is to others or ourselves (Genesis 39:9; Psalm 51:4).
So when we do what Jesus is not doing, and does not do, we sin. But if we are doing what Jesus is doing, we are therefore "One" with Him, which is paramount. Otherwise we sin when we are not doing what He is doing, as "One" with Him, by being 'double' which is 'evil', which is being separate from, or not one with, Him. Therefore not to be one with Him is to do what HE doesn't do, or have what is not ours, which sins against our neighbor, therefore against God.
But by His death, and resurrection, and by faith, our baptism into His death, and resurrection from the dead, we are one with Him as we accept His whole will.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
BE GOOD
Sin
(Heb. ḥaṭṭa’â ; Gk. hamartia , a falling away from or missing the right path). The underlying idea of sin is that of law and of a lawgiver. The lawgiver is God. Hence sin is everything in the disposition and purpose and conduct of God’s moral creatures that is contrary to the expressed will of God (Romans 3:20; 4:15; 7:7; James 4:12, 17).
The sinfulness of sin lies in the fact that it is against God, even when the wrong we do is to others or ourselves (Genesis 39:9; Psalm 51:4).
The being and law of God are perfectly harmonious, for “God is love.” The sum of all the commandments likewise is love; sin in its nature is egotism and selfishness . Self is put in the place of God (Romans 15:3; 1 Corinthians 13:5; 2 Timothy 3:2, 4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).
The distinction between sins of commission and those of omission is only on the surface. In both cases sin is actual disobedience (see Matthew 23:23).
Repentance
(Gk. metanoia , a “change” of mind). In the theological and ethical sense a fundamental and thorough change in the hearts of men from sin and toward God. Although faith alone is the condition for salvation (Ephesians 2:8-10; Acts 16:31), repentance is bound up with faith and inseparable from it , since without some measure of faith no one can truly repent , and repentance never attains to its deepest character till the sinner realizes through saving faith how great is the grace of God against whom he has sinned. On the other hand, there can be no saving faith without true repentance . Repentance contains as essential elements (1) a genuine sorrow toward God on account of sin (2 Corinthians 7:9-10; Matthew 5:3-4; Psalm 51); (2) an inward repugnance to sin necessarily followed by the actual forsaking of it (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20; Hebrews 6:1); and (3) humble self-surrender to the will and service of God (see Acts 9:6, as well as Scriptures above referred to).
Repentance, it is thus to be seen, is the gift of God (Acts 5:31; 11:18; Romans 2:4). It is so because God has given His word with its revelations concerning sin and salvation; also the Holy Spirit to impress the truth and awaken the consciences of men and lead them to repentance. But as with faith so with repentance—it is left with men to make for themselves the great decision
(The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary)
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
johnz
IN context, he is not telling them to repent from their sins (plural), but to repent of not believing in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, the Son of God, the Savior.
Is the unrepentant man forgiven?
2 Corinthians 5
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Yes, his sins are forgiven, they are not being counted against him because they were counted against Christ. quote:
Yes. HE is telling them to repent of unbelief. But all sin is of unbelief. So to repent of unbelief, is to turn from sin, and believe on JEsus. Both are effected in the same motion, or nothing has happened in the soul of the dead individual.
Is the unrepentant man forgiven? It means nothing if he 'rejects' Christ. He does not benefit. The benefit is in the surrender to His will, without which he opposes Christ. No one who opposes Christ is in heaven. 1Cor6:9 Gal5:21
I mean, this is just more, "I'm ok, you're ok, because of Jesus lets say." But one has to meet Jesus on Jesus' terms. They have to meet HIM. They cannot go their own way and expect the benefit of His death on the Cross for them.
It'll never happen just because it is a historical fact. Just because one agrees that Jesus died for them doesn't make them the beneficiary.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
johnz. I corrected my post to reflect that.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Zeena
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posted
Who are you quoting Michael?
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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
johnz quote:
John also verifies that there is a part of you that cannot sin just as there is a part of you that can sin
That is not what John means, not nearly. If you sin, all of you sinned. You are a unit (or do you not watch science fiction movies, unit one?). Did you not say that you did not divide up your spirit, soul and body? Oh unit! If it is not divided up, how then does one part sin and the other not? Sin is in your heart, and it affects the entire being. For it happens outside of Christ. For Christ doesn't sin. And if you do, you did so separate from Him. Therefore, by the act of it, you placed yourself outside of Him.
Here is where repentance comes in. Get back inside of Him. "For in Him is no sin." Without repentance, you crucify Him again.
- Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Notice the numbering of the passage, 'the number of man - 6.) How does one crucify Him again? By sinning!
Sealed?
quote:
2 Corinthians 1:22
who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Number one, I disagree with that translation in 2 Cor 2:22. Guarantee is too strong a word. The KJV says we have received the 'earnest' of our inheritance. That is a down payment.
Think of it like buying a house. If you want to purchase the house, you negotiate with a realitor. If you agree to buy the house, you sign a contract. At that time you put in a down payment in good faith! It is in good faith.
Now, if you happen to run upon troubled times and cannot buy the house, guess what! You lose your down payment.
In the case of the house it is different, because the house didn't change its mind. But in our case, we would be like a house which changed its mind, even though the purchaser never would. In our case, if the house changes its mind, it would 'lose' the deposit. The earnest of our inheritance would be lost.
So sealed simply means that we got the down payment, not the whole package.
- 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
We are purchased. We received the 'down payment'. We are not our own. But we can 'lose' the down payment. Here it is further:
- Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
The redemption of the purchased possesion? I mean, are we not already redeemed? Ah! Final redemption of the purchased possession. We are looking to run the race and experience the 'final redemption' of the purchased possession.
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Betty Louise
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posted
I agree only the person and God knows what goes on in the heart.
Acts 10:43 About him all the prophets testify, that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.
Colossians 2:13 And even though you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he nevertheless made you alive with him, having forgiven all your transgressions.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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kjw47
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posted
Hi Friend, the bottom line of being saved is this according to Gods word-- Those who endure till the end will be saved. So if one goes by that as the real basis of being saved, there isnt a mortal alive that can tell another that he is saved, so i ask why have over 2 billion humans or more been told they were saved? Can a mortal man read anothers true heart? NO. Can a mortal man see the names written in the book of life which is in Gods posession? no. Can a mortal man know for sure that this one or that one can endure till the end? no. It is an impossibility for a mortal man to tell another that they are saved.
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Zeena
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by chosenone:
So you believe that "All is of God" is an incorrect scripture? (1Cor.8:5-7, 1Cor.11:12, 2Cor.5:18, Ro.11:36)
Also. Eph.1:11 ..."in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will", is this also incorrect?
What is your opinion?
Blessings, Jerry.
What is your opinion Jerry, when it comes to evil deeds committed by evil men.. Are the deeds 'of' God too?
Job 34:10b
Far be it from God, that he should do wickedness, And from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
Matthew 5:11
Blessed are ye when men shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Matthew 15:18
But the things which proceed out of the mouth come forth out of the heart; and they defile the man.
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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
But if you see in verse 11: ...In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
If we have been "predestined" according to to His purpose... how do you think that it is conditional if we believe? If we are "predestined" how can it not come about?
Again, "All is of God"
Oh brother! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
There is a proper order. One doesn't start at the finish as you have by taking to heart these verses. Predestined still doesn't mean that you are 'elected' without your will playing a part in it. Your will does. Your heart does. If you do not believe, predestined is meaningless. Yet you take it to mean something as though you have no part in it except to rejoice! Good and well if that equals surrender. But there you go. Without that surrender, presestination is meaningless. Therefore, if that equals surrender, then you participated.
When we find out more of what you believe, we may know if you are changed into the glorious light.
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi again JohnZ,
These are the following definition that I find on the word repentance from 3 different bible dictionaries.
The Laymans Bible Dictionary
REPENTANCE. The act of turning from sin and changing one's orientation from rebellion against God to acceptance of God's will and Lordship. A patient God commands all persons to repent (Acts 17:30). Christ came to call sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32), and He also counsels believers to forgive a brother who repents (Luke 17:3).
Vines Concise Dictionary Of The Bible
REPENTANCE. In the NT the subject chiefly has reference to "repentance" from sin, and this change of mind involves both a turning from sin and a turning to God. The parable of the prodigal son is an outstanding illustration of this. Christ began His ministry with a call to repentance, Matt. 4:17, but the call is adressed, not as in the OT to the nation, but to the individual. In the gospel of John, as distinct from the Synoptic Gospels, referred to above, "repentance" is not mentioned, even in connection with John the Baptist's preaching; in Johns gospel and 1st epistle the effects are stressed, e.g., in the new birth, and, generally, in the active turning from sin to God by the exercise of faith(John 3:3; 9:38; 1John 1:9), as in the NT in general.
Wycliffe Bible Dictionary
REPENTANCE. Can be said to denote that inward change of mind, affections, convictions, and commitment, rooted in the fear of God and sorrow for offenses committed against Him, which, when accompanied by faith in Jesus Christ, results in an outward turning from sin to God and His service in all of life. END.
You have stated that repentance involves a change of mind and I would agree with that, but I do not believe that is a very full picture of repentance. If we were to take all three definitions from the above and combine them to create a so called "consensus" definition it may appear something like this..........
A change of mind about God and sin which results in a turning from sin/rebellion to God and a turning to God and His Will.
If you do not believe that the above would accurately reflect the meaning of repentance then you and I will have difficulty on seeing eye to eye on its importance in relation to salvation.
If your position is that repentance is not necessary for forgiveness I would have to disagree.
It is not faith + repentance for salvation....... it is a repentant faith for salvation.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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johnz
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi JohnZ,
It’s nice to meet you. I wanted to ask you a question about your post.
Are you implying that men are forgiven even before they repent?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Hi Daniel,
I hope you're having a blessed day!
I guess I would answer yes, but I'd also like to talk a little about repentance.
I could be mistaken but I thought that the word "repent" means to change your mind. And it doesn't necessarily refer to sin, it can be used in any context.
In Acts 2 when Peter stood up to preach after the 120 where all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues he said to them...
38
..."Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
IN context, he is not telling them to repent from their sins (plural), but to repent of not believing in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, the Son of God, the Savior.
Is the unrepentant man forgiven?
2 Corinthians 5
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Yes, his sins are forgiven, they are not being counted against him because they were counted against Christ.
Is he saved? No. He has been reconciled, but he needs to receive that reconciliation. He needs to receive Christ.
Again, the Gospel, the Good news is not that if you ask Jesus to be your Savior and ask him to forgive you sins you will be saved. It's that your sins are forgiven now receive Jesus as your Savior and have eternal life.
I like how this picture explains it...
Before Jesus
God
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Sin
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Man
We couldn't be with God because sin was in the way and God couldn't be with us because sin was in the way.
But when Jesus came...
"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."
It became...
God
-
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Man
How much sin was left? Is there any sin that Jesus didn’t die for?
If we left it here we would get off and say, "Well I guess everyone is saved." But that’s not the case either.
The picture we have now is...
God
-
Jesus
-
Man
Jesus is the only thing separating man from God and He is the only one that can bring the two together.
Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one can come to the Father except by me."
In Christ,
Johnz
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God is not counting your sins against you and your sins can't send you to Hell.(2 Cor 5:19) Only one thing can...
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johnz
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I don't know how you can divide it up like that. If you were to say that Jesus is perfect, doesn't sin, and therefore is righteous, and say that that is our constant, well and good. But if your mind, will, or emotions sin, then you pollute your spirit. (Grieve, the Spirit.) Jesus remains constant, and we can find our way back into His grace by repenting. We are outside His grace while we don't repent.
I didn’t divide up Spirit, Soul, and Body. God did.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 7 Talks about the difference between the inward man and the outward man
Our Spirit is the part of us that is born again. I didn’t lose 60 pounds or grow 2 feet when I got saved. My body didn’t change. It wasn’t born again. My mind and thinking weren’t immediately transformed either; they need to be renewed by the word of God.
It was in my spirit where old things passed away and all things became new. Where I became a new creation, where I was born again.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2 Corinthians 5:21 says that we are the Righteousness of God in Him (Christ). Well how is that possible? I certainly don’t live righteous and act righteous all the time. Is God a Liar? No, in our spirit we are perfected, holy, righteous.
It’s what’s called a positional truth. It’s true only because of our position = In Christ.
Throughout the NT we see those words over and over again, “In Him, In Whom, In Christ, In the Beloved.” These are things that apply to us regardless of how we are living our lives. They apply because we are In Christ.
John also verifies that there is a part of you that cannot sin just as there is a part of you that can sin
1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God
The word says here that if you are Born of God, Born again, that you can’t sin. If this where true and you just left it at that, then no one would go to heaven, we’d all be lost.
But John seems to be contradicting something he wrote just 2 chapters earlier…
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
SO… Ch 1, if you say you don’t sin you’re a Lair and Ch 3, if you Sin you’re not saved!
How are both of these scripture true unless in the Born Again Believer, there is a Part of Him that CAN sin and a Part that CANNOT.
There is not room for confusion here, he “cannot sin”.
What you do on the outside, in the Flesh, in the Soul, cannot change the inside.
That’s why good works can’t save you… Because no matter how much good you do it can’t change what’s on the inside. It can’t change a spirit from unrighteous to righteous.
Praise God for the Holy Spirit who is a seal on our heart, our spirit., keeping us and guarding us until the day of redemption.
You talked about grieving the Spirit. But the fact that you can grieve the Holy Spirit does not negate the fact that we are sealed by Him.
2 Corinthians 1:22
who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Just one other thing that I want to touch on… There is only one way that we could ever leave God’s Grace and it’s not through sin.
Galatians 5:4 says
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
It all goes back to Jesus Christ and faith in Him. You don’t fall from grace through sin, you fall from grace through trying to be justified by your own works.
In Christ,
Johnz
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God is not counting your sins against you and your sins can't send you to Hell.(2 Cor 5:19) Only one thing can...
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oneinchrist
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posted
I have heard several who have spoken on the subject of predestination with all confidence.....but I have noticed that they usually dont make mention of God's foreknowledge .
Is that perhaps because many of them do not believe that man has been given a free-will by God?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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chosenone
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posted
Hi Michael.
You say..
No! I do not believe that 'all' encompasses what you are assigning to it.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
It is conditional. That condition is to believe. In Eph 1:13 we also see the word trust. That is a form of belief. Notice the cause and effect: "in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of Promise."
That is followed with obedience, which, really, is another 'form' of faith. It is a receiving faith, by which one is enabled to please God.
But if you see in verse 11: ...In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
If we have been "predestined" according to to His purpose... how do you think that it is conditional if we believe? If we are "predestined" how can it not come about?
Again, "All is of God"
Blessings, Jerry.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Chosenone,
Its nice to meet you. I can prove to you that according to the scriptures repentance is necessary. I would like for you to prove that repentance is not necessary according to the scriptures.
Because people disagree over what is necessary does not mean that nothing is necessary.
Because God is the author of our salvation does not mean that He has not layed out conditions for us to have to follow.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif) quote:
When we take text out of context, we are left with "con".
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) 2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
No! I do not believe that 'all' encompasses what you are assigning to it.
- Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
- Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
- Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
It is conditional. That condition is to believe. In Eph 1:13 we also see the word trust. That is a form of belief. Notice the cause and effect: "in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of Promise."
That is followed with obedience, which, really, is another 'form' of faith. It is a receiving faith, by which one is enabled to please God.
- Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
How is one rewarded?
- Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
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Carol Swenson
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When we take text out of context, we are left with "con".
Ephesians 1:3 - 14 (NLT)
3 All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ. 4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. 5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. 6 So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son. 7 He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins. 8 He has showered his kindness on us, along with all wisdom and understanding. 9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth. 11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan. 12 God’s purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. 13 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. 14 The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.
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chosenone
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
When one leans to his own understanding, he does not lean to the Spirit's understanding. Anyone can come to conclusions based on their reading of the word. Will their conclusion qualify them? Will it be acceptable? After all, the world is full of cults and denominations that have come to some conclusion based on their reading of the word - Even Charles Manson! But they came to in on their own, separate from God.
What we must seek to come to is HIS understanding, not our own. How do we know when it is His? That is why we are given to seek. How will we know? One thing is for sure, we don't give up seeking until we have the 'witness' within us, no matter what we think we have figured out. The cost for being wrong is eternal, even if one does not believe so.
Hi Michael.
So you believe that "All is of God" is an incorrect scripture? (1Cor.8:5-7, 1Cor.11:12, 2Cor.5:18, Ro.11:36)
Also. Eph.1:11 ..."in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will", is this also incorrect?
What is your opinion?
Blessings, Jerry.
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Michael Harrison
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When one leans to his own understanding, he does not lean to the Spirit's understanding. Anyone can come to conclusions based on their reading of the word. Will their conclusion qualify them? Will it be acceptable? After all, the world is full of cults and denominations that have come to some conclusion based on their reading of the word - Even Charles Manson! But they came to in on their own, separate from God.
What we must seek to come to is HIS understanding, not our own. How do we know when it is His? That is why we are given to seek. How will we know? One thing is for sure, we don't give up seeking until we have the 'witness' within us, no matter what we think we have figured out. The cost for being wrong is eternal, even if one does not believe so.
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chosenone
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Hi johnz.
I enjoyed your original post, and agree with most of it. We have no part in our salvation. It has all been done for us!
All is of God, see 1Cor.8:5-7 "5 For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords,
6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.
7 But not in all is there this knowledge. Now some, used hitherto to the idol, are eating of it as an idol sacrifice, and their conscience, being weak, is being polluted."
See also Eph.1:11-12. "11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
12 that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ."
Of course many do not believe these scriptures, they assume that we still have to somehow 'qualify' for this salvation by doing 'something', be it repentance, choosing, be baptised, ask forgiveness, allow God, or develop a relationship with Jesus. All have many disagreements of what is neccessary, so how do we really know?
Why not just believe scripture? "All is of God". (many believe only "some" is of God, the rest is of "us".)
Blessings, Jerry.
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oneinchrist
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Hi JohnZ,
Its nice to meet you. I wanted to ask you a question about your post.
Are you implying that men are forgiven even before they repent?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Carol Swenson
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“Be filled with the Spirit” is God’s command, and He expects us to obey . The command is plural, so it applies to all Christians and not just to a select few. The verb is in the present tense —“keep on being filled”— so it is an experience we should enjoy constantly and not just on special occasions. And the verb is passive. We do not fill ourselves but permit the Spirit to fill us. The verb “fill” has nothing to do with contents or quantity, as though we are empty vessels that need a required amount of spiritual fuel to keep going. In the Bible, filled means “controlled by.” “They … were filled with wrath” (Luke 4:28) means “they were controlled by wrath” and for that reason tried to kill Jesus. “The Jews were filled with envy” (Acts 13:45) means that the Jews were controlled by envy and opposed the ministry of Paul and Barnabas. To be “filled with the Spirit” means to be constantly controlled by the Spirit in our mind, emotions, and will.
Ephesians 5:17 - 20 (NLT)
17 Don’t act thoughtlessly, but understand what the Lord wants you to do. 18 Don’t be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, be filled with the Holy Spirit , 19 singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs among yourselves, and making music to the Lord in your hearts. 20 And give thanks for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:9 - 11 (NLT)
9 I pray that your love will overflow more and more, and that you will keep on growing in knowledge and understanding. 10 For I want you to understand what really matters, so that you may live pure and blameless lives until the day of Christ’s return. 11 May you always be filled with the fruit of your salvation—the righteous character produced in your life by Jesus Christ—for this will bring much glory and praise to God.
But how can a person tell whether or not he is filled with the Spirit? Paul stated that there are three evidences of the fullness of the Spirit in the life of the believer: he is joyful (Eph. 5:19), thankful (Eph. 5:20), and submissive (Eph. 5:21-33).
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
We still sin on the outside, in our flesh and in our soul (mind, will, and emotions), but in the inner man, in our spirit we are born again: perfected, sealed, righteous.
???
Mar 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
I don't know how you can divide it up like that. If you were to say that Jesus is perfect, doesn't sin, and therefore is righteous, and say that that is our constant, well and good. But if your mind, will, or emotions sin, then you pollute your spirit. (Grieve, the Spirit.) Jesus remains constant, and we can find our way back into His grace by repenting. We are outside His grace while we don't repent.
To repent of course means 'not to be guilty', by way of turning to His delivering power. That is very different from justifying the 'soul's' sinning.
Did you lose your salvation when you sinned? You abide in darkness when you sin. That doesn't condemn you to hell, but it could if it keeps bearing fruit unto death.
- Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
- Rom 6:23 For the wages
of sin
is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
We must 'abide' in Eternal Life - the Ark!
- 1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
Why? If the penalty of sin is death, well, think of sin as not watering the house plant. Will it not show signs of dying? Will it not wilt? What will happen if it continues to lack water?
Water is symbolic of the Spirit of God, which is grieved away by sin. In other words, sinning is to the Spirit as witholding water is to a house plant. So if one continues in it....
Jesus is the inner man. We are born again by Him. It is the very meaning of being "Born Again." HE is the constant. We can abide in the constant. We remove ourselves from the constant willingly by refusint to trust in the constant. If we prefer to sin, we therefore deny the constant. That denial is death to us. It worketh death.
- 1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
In that he keepeth himself, the devil finds nothing in him.
Do we struggle with sin? Need we feel like we are condemned? What we should concentrate on is that His love longs to free us, not condemn us. We should be looking in that direction and not get too discouraged. For that is what the devil wants, is to discourage us. That is where condemnation comes in. But it is a tool in the Masters hand to guide us to repent.
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Zeena
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posted
SAVE ME JESUS!
Would do just fine! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
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Carol Swenson
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Galatians 5:19 - 26 (NLT)
19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
22 But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control . There is no law against these things! 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25 Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives. 26 Let us not become conceited, or provoke one another, or be jealous of one another.
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Carol Swenson
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Hebrews 12:5 - 11 (NLT)
5 And have you forgotten the encouraging words God spoke to you as his children? He said,
“My child, don’t make light of the LORD’s discipline, and don’t give up when he corrects you.
6 For the LORD disciplines those he loves , and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.”
7 As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by its father? 8 If God doesn’t discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children at all. 9 Since we respected our earthly fathers who disciplined us, shouldn’t we submit even more to the discipline of the Father of our spirits, and live forever? 10 For our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God’s discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness. 11 No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening—it’s painful! But afterward there will be a peaceful harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way.
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by johnz:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Hi WildB
What does he mean, "Do not grieve the holy Spirit?"
I think He defines it in vs. 31 "Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice."
Praise God for his forgivness, vs. 32!
In Christ,
Johnz
I Don't.......
[17] This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
[18] Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
[19] Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
[20] But ye have not so learned Christ;
[21] If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[22] That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
[23] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
[24] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
[25] Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
[26] Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
[27] Neither give place to the devil.
[28] Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
[29] Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
and anything that is contrary to the law and the Prophets......
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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Amen WildB!
Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
The sin of grieving the Holy Spirit.
This sin involves doing that which the Holy Spirit would not have us do.
To illustrate: A believer boards a plane in Chicago for Los Angeles and finds himself seated next to an unsaved man. In flight the Holy Spirit attempts to witness to the unsaved man through the testimony of the Christian, but he remains silent and fails to witness. At this point, the believer has quenched the Holy Spirit. He has not done that which the Spirit of God wanted him to do.
As the flight continues, however, the two men introduce themselves and begin talking, but not about spiritual things. In fact, to the shame of the Christian, several off-color stories are passed between the two men. Now the saved man has gone the second step and grieved the Holy Spirit—he has done that which the Holy Spirit did not want him to do.
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005760
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johnz
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Hi WildB
What does he mean, "Do not grieve the holy Spirit?"
I think He defines it in vs. 31 "Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice."
Praise God for his forgivness, vs. 32!
In Christ,
Johnz
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God is not counting your sins against you and your sins can't send you to Hell.(2 Cor 5:19) Only one thing can...
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WildB
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posted
Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
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That is all.....
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johnz
Community Member
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Romans 6:1 - 4 (NLT)
1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? 3 Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death? 4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.
Wow. I was expecting more of an argument against than for.
Romans 5:20 says
"Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,"
The very fact that God's grace has allready abounded more, much more, than our sin, gives us freedom, boldness, and confidence in our daily walk.
It's because God's grace had abounded beyond our sin that we are able to overcome it in our daily lives.
I like that you brought up where Paul said, "In me, that is in my flesh, nothing good dwells." it shows that we still have the sin nature in our flesh. But we know from 2 Cor 5 that in our spirit we are new creations. Old things have passed away and all things have become new.
We still sin on the outside, in our flesh and in our soul (mind, will, and emotions), but in the inner man, in our spirit we are born again: perfected, sealed, righteous.
Totally contrary to the wisdom of man, the Lord said through Paul in Galatians 5:16...
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
People today are so concerned with external holiness. Whether they say it our not they think, "Don't fulfill the lust of the flesh!Don't fulfill the lust of the flesh! Don't fulfill the lust of the flesh! THEN you can walk in the spirit."
But it's only by walking in the spirit that we are able not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, not the other way around.
1 Corinthains 15:34 says
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not;"
It's only when we awake unto righteousness, wake up to the fact that we are righteous in Christ (2 Cor 5:20) that we will be able to obey the command "sin not."
It all goes back to the foundation, the gospel.
If I was taught that my sins are being counted against me then every time I sin after salvation I am left condemned and in fear of losing it.
Condemnation is always counter productive. It will lead you away from God, not toward Him.
But if I am taught that my sins are allready forgiven because of what Jesus did on the cross and I sin after salvation, I'm not condemned, because this sin, though it may be only minutes old, was judged and forgiven 2000 yrs ago. And now God's grace and mercy draws me closer to Him.
Thank God for Grace!
In Christ,
Johnz
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God is not counting your sins against you and your sins can't send you to Hell.(2 Cor 5:19) Only one thing can...
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Your sins, whether you're saved or unsaved, have no part to play in your salvation .
Agreed.
Ephesians 2:8 - 10 (NLT)
8 God saved you by his grace when you believed . And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done , so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
But...
Romans 6:1 - 4 (NLT)
1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? 3 Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death? 4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.
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Carol Swenson
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How To Accept Christ
http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006682#000001
He should not serve sin (Romans 6:6-10)
Sin is a terrible master, and it finds a willing servant in the human body. The body is not sinful; the body is neutral. It can be controlled either by sin or by God. But man’s fallen nature, which is not changed at conversion, gives sin a beachhead from which it can attack and then control. Paul expressed the problem: “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not” (Rom. 7:18).
A tremendous fact is introduced here: the old man (the old ego, self) was crucified with Christ so that the body need not be controlled by sin. The word “destroyed” in Romans 6:6 does not mean annihilated; it means “rendered inactive, made of no effect.” The same Greek word is translated “loosed” in Romans 7:2. If a woman’s husband dies, she is “loosed” from the law of her husband and is free to marry again. There is a change in relationship. The law is still there, but it has no authority over the woman because her husband is dead.
Sin wants to be our master. It finds a foothold in the old nature, and through the old nature seeks to control the members of the body. But in Jesus Christ, we died to sin; and the old nature was crucified so that the old life is rendered inoperative. Paul was not describing an experience; he was stating a fact. The practical experience was to come later. It is a fact of history that Jesus Christ died on the cross. It is also a fact of history that the believer died with Him; and “he that is dead is freed from sin” (Rom. 6:7). Not “free to sin” as Paul’s accusers falsely stated; but “freed from sin.”
Sin and death have no dominion over Christ. We are “in Christ”; therefore, sin and death have no dominion over us. Jesus Christ not only died “for sin,” but He also died “unto sin.” That is, He not only paid the penalty for sin, but He broke the power of sin. This idea of dominion takes us back to Romans 5:12-21 where Paul dealt with the “reigns” of sin, death, and grace. Through Christ we “reign in life” (Rom. 5:17) so that sin no longer controls our lives.
(Wiersbe)
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johnz
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posted
If you were to ask most Christians this question they would probably respond with something like this...
"You need to confess that you're a sinner, ask God to forgive you sins, come into your heart, and be your Lord and Savior."
I disagree with this statement.
I believe that the reason why people respond this way is because the don't have revelation / understanding of the gospel, of what the gospel is.
The Gospel is not the good news that you can have your sins forgiven if you ask God for forgiveness.
The Gospel is the Good News that God has already forgiven your sins and all you need to do is put your faith in Jesus Christ to receive that forgiveness.
2 Corinthians 5:19 says,
...that is, that God was in Christ reconciling (to make peace) the world to Himself, not imputing (counting) their trespasses (sins) to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation (peace).
Sin is no longer standing in our way, keeping us from God. Unbelief in Jesus Christ is.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The bible says that the Holy Spirit is only convicting the unbeliever of 1 sin, the ONLY sin that will keep someone from heaven and send them to hell.
John 16: 8-9
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
We do a disservice to people when we tell them that their sins are separating them from God. We lay a foundation of condemnation in their life.
What we should be doing is laying a foundation of justification. That you are, or can be, totally and completely justified in the sight of God by faith in Jesus Christ. Your sins, whether you're saved or unsaved, have no part to play in your salvation.
Romans 5:1
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
So many Christians don't know peace because they don't know that they have been totally and completely justified by faith in Jesus Christ.
The bible teaches that we have even more grace after salvation than before. Which is pretty amazing considering that "while we where still sinners, Christ died for us."
If unbelief is the only thing that God is counting against you, and you believe, what's left?
In Christ,
Johnz
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God is not counting your sins against you and your sins can't send you to Hell.(2 Cor 5:19) Only one thing can...
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