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Topic: The Gift of Holy Hatred
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
T7
Psalms 40
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
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That is all.....
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Thunderz7
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Member # 31
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posted
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
T7
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Oh! Uh, right Thunderz! That is a good example of a 'bitter' Old Covenant; but the point is well taken. So to put it in perspective as in the New Covenant, to 'hate' is to 'love', and to love someone while you smiultaneously 'hate' them is not to compromise Jesus to serve their will (doubt, unbelief), while not hating them personally, the idea being that they are free to follow you, "even as you also are of Christ." Under the Old Covenant they just got the axe!
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Thunderz7
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posted
Ps. 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
T7
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Holy hatred is not a phrase coined in the Bible, as such. But nevertheless it is, in the sense that we are to 'hate sin'. Sin is anything for which Jesus is not the source. This could include ceremony, perhaps! It goes back to the pasture thing which I was talking about. Ceremony without God in it (I know, it is well intended, but...) is like the scrubby pasture where only little clumps of grass grow. God wants us to feast on Him, in a great, green, grassy field. It is not wrong to say that. But it is offensive to quite a few to point this out! I have found out. You become to them a 'know it all', or a 'name caller'. They just want to be left alone to do their thing. It's pretty rugged. In the Old (and bitter) Covenant, it might be referred to as "Turning your arss, rather than your face to Him."
But satan fools us with our own sincerity. Sincerity is potentially a sin. It is potentially 'works', if you get down to it, because it is one's wanting to 'contribute' to God, but unfortunately, it is done in the flesh, in the ignorance of Cain. Real sincerity would be to find out what He wants, so that it may well up within you. He will provide!
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Michael Harrison
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posted
I can just hear Mary Murphy sitting on the judges panel and excitedly shouting, "Why, that's just good-news-for-all. Wooooo! You're on the Hot Tamale Train. That's what I mean!"
Wanna dance? I'm sorry you dissagree gnews! Is it to my undoing, or your's? It is pretty rough when nobody, can say anything, without someone being critical about someone being critical, not recognizing that they are being what they accuse another of (if you really want to weigh this out in the balance). It is almost like a recovering Pharisee thing! And just to be funny, I wasn't saying anything bad about Chip, or any of his detractors (such as you) that I am aware. (I know, I miss the point, huh? I know what you meant. Are you cluing us into something that could open the doors of 'naming'? Shhhhhh! Don't get me started.)
Somehow though, I don't expect this kind of fallout of you. I don't know why you are hearing it this way in this case? Otherwise I might agree with you, at least, some of what you said.
But:
quote:
we, as believers, should celebrate the fact that we are not under the old covenant of constant bitterness, but are under the new covenant of love.
I'm not quite the Old Covenant was a covenant of bitterness. But I am going to skip over that.
So:
quote:
"If any man come to Me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple" (Luke 14:26).
The above quote doesn't mean that we should actually hate our family, but rather love them less than Jesus himself. We must put him above everyone else.
Chip actually says we should hate our brothers and sisters.
Chip doesn't say that. Besides, when that word 'hate' is used, it doesn't mean 'murder', as though in your heart you thought evil (which makes you guilty already in God's eyes). It means not to acknowledge, or to choose them over Jesus. We know that such compromise is a daily thing for some, and easily performed. And you cannot 'know Him' when you compromise. Want scripture?
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
He will 'hold' to the mammon, and 'despise' God. The mammon means 'riches'. Riches would include anything in this world. That would include family. You cannot serve their wishes and God's at the same time. So you actually come to a point of sacrificing them as an act of 'choosing' God, and letting the chips fall where they may.
In Muslim and communist countries, this becomes even more pronounced. The distinction is clear cut; follow Christ, or renounce Him for family, or something else you fear. This is what He means by 'hate'. Choose Jesus even if 'they' hate you for doing so. It is a clean break, or it is compromise, and it comes down to that choice, even here in America.
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Good NewsforAll
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I have to stand with Chip Brodgen. When someone tried to communicate something, they are limited to words that do not exactly communicate the meaning they are trying to convey. It is lika a game of ??? (what is that game where someone gestures, and you try to guess what they are hinting at?)
We are supposed to pray for wisdom to express what we mean. Anyway, before I get you more upset and you have to resort to further name-calling I better just let it be.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
"WildB your scripture was taken from Old Testament when God ruled with the law of wrath. We are under the new covenant of love."
No its taken from Proverbs which is part of the Bible which is the Mind and Will of God.
Psalms 40
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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posted
I have to stand with Chip Brodgen. When someone tries to communicate something, they are limited to words that do not exactly communicate the meaning they are trying to convey. It is lika a game of ??? (what is that game where someone gestures, and you try to guess what they are hinting at?) Anyway, it is a pearl situation. To find a pearl you have to go deeper. What happens is, rather than trying to find the meaning in what someone is saying, invariably people read 'at' what is written, and that in a reactionary way, which, I might add, is according to the one's own (probably limited) experience, or understanding. In otherwords, rather than considering whether there is something being communicated which brings one closer to Jesus, into a deeper relationship, they, stonewall the attempt at communication, refuting, according to their own experience, what the communicator is trying to say.
In other words they are self defeating. I like to say it like this. God's sheep have a pasture. They have a special pasture, spiritually. But there are other pastures around. What Chip is saying is, "Hey! I've found the pasture. I've found the one we are supposed to be in. It's over here, and you can get out of that scrubby one and come on over. The dining is fine."
And I am going to be just a little bit mean. There will always be a gathering of know-it-all's who, instead of humbling themselves to consider, would, rather proudly, interject their input to show that they are approved. They mean well but miss out. In doing so, rather than humbly considering whether the bleating sheep is, after all, well informed, these say their piece, then hunker on down to some good old scrubby, rather than the green from the rich pasture they are being hearkened to.
So let me say, Chip is not trying to put down anyonne's worship service, but indicating that it has become more or less dead, and that you are still 'clinging' to it, for it is all you know; the point being, that if you are complacent, you are not searching. If you are not searching, you are not discovering. And no more can any man say, though he tries. Yet some will listen. An occasional one will hearken.
The Apostle Paul was doing the same thing in trying to describe the pasture, and do you see how many things people make of it? There are so many interpretations, mostly of 'what to do'. It makes sense to us to ask what to 'do' to have 'this', or accomplish this or that. We all want to be in relationship. We all want to bear fruit, so we want to know what to 'do' to affect it.
Well, God has sent people to point the way. But there are so many claiming to point the way. Pick one at random and that person is just another one in the mix. So who is right? One has to consult Jesus. No other way can it be said. Otherwise they ignore HIM and pursue other rightful avenues which nevertheless do not give the whole picture they are supposed to get, because they go down that path without the Light! Jesus is the light, and the word makes sense 'in the light'. People who try to go it without the light, however well meaning, do not discover what they are supposed to. So they settle for less, trying to conjure up what they thirst for in relationship. That is all Chip is saying.
I will tell you, it is such that the carnal mind convinces people that they are assimilating and appropriating the word (correctly dividing) when they are really not reaching the goal. They are on a hampster wheel and teaching others. They moreover, and thereby, settle for less, not really knowing what they are missing though someone is trying to tell them. I Stand with Chip. I know what he is saying. Let those who dissagree do so. There is a greener pasture for the "called according to His purpose." And it is right across from the hampster wheel.
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Good NewsforAll
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"If any man come to Me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple" (Luke 14:26).
The above quote doesn't mean that we should actually hate our family, but rather love them less than Jesus himself. We must put him above everyone else.
Chip actually says we should hate our brothers and sisters.
quote:
Imagine Jesus standing at the altar of a church on Sunday morning as people come forward to "make a decision" for Christ. Jesus looks at them and says, "I'm sorry, you cannot be my disciple." They would be shocked. The church staff would be horrified. The congregation would be aghast. But that is exactly what Luke 14:26 describes. Someone comes to Jesus. Hallelujah! Do we have a disciple? Maybe we do, or maybe we do not. Because in addition to coming to Jesus, that person must hate their parents, spouse, brothers and sisters.. They must hate their own life, and they must take up their Cross and die so they can live. Do you want to know the real problem
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
I don't like that term "Holy Hatred." God hates sin, but not the sinner. There is nothing holy about sin.
I'll try again. Chip is not talking about hating the sinner. He is simply trying to convince the child of God to step into the palm of Jesus to be lifted up, rather than to withold one's self and worship from afar.
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Good NewsforAll
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
The article said: "The Gift of Holy Hatred by Chip Brogden"
This is no such gift listed of the Holy Spirit:
I don't like that term "Holy Hatred." God hates sin, but not the sinner. There is nothing holy about sin.
WildB your scripture was taken from Old Testament when God ruled with the law of wrath. We are under the new covenant of love.
In the words of Jesus -
Matthew 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Carol Swenson
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Very true barrykind. In times of peace, people tend to become too complacent.
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
Proverbs 6
[16] These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
[17] A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
[18] An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
[19] A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
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That is all.....
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Eden
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posted
The article said: "The Gift of Holy Hatred by Chip Brogden"
This is no such gift listed of the Holy Spirit:
Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Chip Brogden's article also said: "We know how to put together a music program (three praise songs, three worship songs)."
In every church there are spiritual Christians and carnal Christians. It perhaps makes for "good" writing, but there is no such thing as a "99% dead church". God will accept praise from anyone in the church building who sincerely praises Him for His wonderful works and there are usually at least 10 persons who sincerely love God:
Genesis 18:32
And he {Abram} said, Oh let not the LORD be angry and I will speak yet but once more: Perhaps only ten shall be found there. And He said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
love, eden
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Good NewsforAll
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Behold, God is mighty, but despises no one; He is mighty in strength of understanding."
Job 36:5
When Jesus healed the ten lepers, he didn't show any holy hatred, especially since at least one was a Samaritan, who were despised by the Jews.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Jesus wants to take you - and make you! Don't be a fake you!
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Michael Harrison
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It is all HIS work!
Really! The term Holy Hatred is intended as a simple scorn for religious practice in place of real fellowship. What happens is we desire fellowship so much, that in the absence of it we 'work it up' in an effort to experience the manifestation. That is, when it is dry, we can't take it. We try our best. It is rampant. It actually replaces what we are supposed to 'do' to be in fellowship, so that we, again, make an effort to work it up. Simple redirection will cause one to find what they are looking for, if we will pay the price. Just pray, "Jesus, I want to pay the price. Be near me." Amen. He loves you, and such trust is precious to Him. He blesses it.
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Good NewsforAll
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"I would like to suggest that the reason we are not familiar with holy hatred, the good hatred, is because our love is not strong enough." There is no such thing as good hatred. You can't find the term "holy hatred" in the Bible. There are certain doctrines that are deceived into thinking that their main mission in life is root out the 'bad guys.'
Somehow giving the devil front and centre, making I us think that we have to be constantly overcoming his evil ways gives him too much attention and makes him feel that, if we don't watch out, he can be the overcomer.
His curse was defeated at the cross and we, as believers, should celebrate the fact that we are not under the old covenant of constant bitterness, but are under the new covenant of love. We should be victorious over his hate tactics.
We should hate sin, but it is not necessary going around condemning at every turn. It is up to God to convict.
We are seated far above the influence of the devil and shouldn’t be terrified of him -.
Eph 2:5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus
Sometimes I think we don't give enough credit to the Holy Spirit. We think all of the work is left up to us. We should show our love and compasson and the lord will do the rest.
In Jesus' sermon on the mount he he taught us the new covenant of love, instead of clinging to the old covenant of death and destruction.
Matthew 4:Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matthew 5:P 38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
We shouldn't be afraid if the devil and his deceitful hate tactics.
John 4:18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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KnowHim
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Very,very true. We must know Him not religion.
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barrykind
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posted
Good morning Friend!
Today's meditation is taken from:
The Gift of Holy Hatred by Chip Brogden
http://www.theschoolofchrist.org/articles/hate.html
"But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matthew 15:9).
Are we offering acceptable sacrifices to the Lord? Sacrifices of humility? Brokenness? Spirit and truth worship? Or are we just going through the motions of Churchianity every week? We know how to put together a music program (three praise songs, three worship songs). We know how to take up offerings. We know how to preach and give an altar call. We know how to do all these things: but are we giving God what He wants?
It is a sad, but real fact: if God removed His presence from our church services, 99% of the activity would continue on as before, without interruption. We do not need God's Spirit to worship in the flesh: we can do that all by ourselves. But God will not accept this "worship." He looks the other way.
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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