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Topic: Was Judas ever saved?
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Caretaker
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posted
Good stuff David!!!!
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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The reference to Judas as a son of perdition comes from the prayer of Jesus in John 17, and Jesus declares that Judas is the only one lost.
Scriptures in reference to Judas:
He made a conscience choice to betray Jesus - Luke 22:48.
He was a thief with greed in his heart - John 12:6.
Jesus knew Judas' heart was set on evil and that he would not repent - John 6:70, John 17:12.
Judas' act of betrayal was part of God's sovereign plan - Psalm 41:9, Zechariah 11:12-13, Matthew 20:18 and 26:20-25, Acts 1:16,20.
John 12:
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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noble
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One other point is, we really don't know what God's disposition of Judas was or is. We can speculate based on his actions both before and after the betrayal, but because God KNEW before the universe began what Judas's role would be, did He condemn him already, or was the condemnation issued at the betrayal?
Now Drew brought up a point I never heard of before about some condemned angel. Drew where was this noted?
Also as Judas was from the selection of the twelve a Disciple, one of the inner circle, he was as solid a believer as the rest of the disciples, he did minister in the Power of the Holy Spirit, that I believe he did have the respect of the others, regardless of what some other scripture says. It's like I have a company and in that company I have a treasurer and that treasurer watches the nickles and dimes, and others in the company may be a bit chagrinned and say unkind things but Jesus must have respected him, to allow him to keep that job.
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WildB
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one has to have faith in a dollar for it to be worth something.
My Christ has worth no man can know.
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That is all.....
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Robby
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Let us not forget that demons acknowledge Jesus is the Son of God.
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble.
James 2:19
Remember, salvation is only for humanity, not fallen angels or demons (who are not human beings).
Hebrews 2:16 tells us, "For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants."
So, there is no Redeemer for angels. Their fallen leader seeks "only to steal and kill and destroy" (John 10:10).
Satan's plan was never to save anything. He cannot even save himself (Matt. 25:41).
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Caretaker
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I think that Jesus stated that Judas was lost, in His prayer in John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John Gill
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world
This does not imply that Christ was not in the world now, for he was; but signifies that he was just going out of it; and that his continuance in it was very short: nor that he was, and would be no longer with his disciples; for this is to be understood of his bodily, not of his spiritual presence; in which respect Christ is with his people whilst they are on earth, and they are with him when he is in heaven:
I kept them in thy name;
by his Father's authority and power, in his doctrine:
those that thou gavest me I have kept;
that is, those that were given him to be his apostles;
and none of them is lost;
these he kept close to himself, and from the evil of the world, and from temporal and eternal ruin:
but the son of perdition;
Judas, a child of Satan, whose name is Apollyon the destroyer, who was now about to betray his Lord and master; and was one that was appointed to eternal ruin and destruction, of which he was justly deserving; and which is no instance of the apostasy of saints, since though he was given to Christ as an apostle, yet not in eternal election, to be saved by him:
that the Scripture might be fulfilled;
this respects either Christ's keeping of his people, and their final perseverance, whereby the Scriptures that speak of it are fulfilled; or rather the destruction of Judas, whereby such passages as speak of that, have their accomplishment, particularly ( Psalms 109:8 ) ; Some have thought that this only refers to the general sense of the Scriptures, both the law and prophets; that some are chosen to everlasting life, and others are appointed to wrath; that some are saved, and others lost; some sons of God, and others sons of perdition; but it rather seems to regard some particular passage or passages of Scripture relating to Judas, his character, condition and end, and which are very manifestly pointed at, in the psalm referred to;
``As for the servants whom I have given thee, there shall not one of them perish; for I will require them from among thy number.'' (2 Esdras 2:26)
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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KnowHim
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Judas had faith, but it was not a true saving faith. Judas was never “saved,” but for a time he was a follower of Christ. I believe we all betray Jesus at times in our life. Example: Peter, King David, etc...
The difference I believe is they repented because they knew what they had done and was devastated by their actions.
I have not seen where Judas repented?
"Even after his dreadful deed, Judas could have fallen on his knees to beg God’s forgiveness. But he did not. He may have felt some remorse born of fear, which caused him to return the money to the Pharisees, but he never repented, preferring instead to commit suicide, the ultimate act of selfishness"
Quote from:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-saved.html#ixzz2kdKpYq7E
Was Judas saved or not?
Well unless we were there with him the entire time before he hung himself we will not know until we have met our maker and answer for what we have done.
He could have repented. But my thoughts are he did not. But I hope he did.
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noble
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I agree Drew, no argument from me there.
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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by noble:
Thank you Drew, I have been in study in Ecclesiastes in my Thursday morning class I teach, and did miss that.I have been away from certain areas as I teach in others. I just finished an 8 week course I taught on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and the building up of the Church,and between these two groups It's been busy.
I read that study you posted, found it interesting. One thing I note with all these studies from Adam Clark, to McGee, to the old commentaries of Matthew Henry, a difference in how folks and scholars look at particular passages. I then look at the historical background and meld information together as it seems to fit.
Your initial point that the Disciples were just that [learners] and not saved in the sense we understand it was spot on. One thing I do note is there were two occasions where the seventy and the fifty went out in the Power of the Holy Spirit, Judas was there both times and there being approximately 120 + disciples [learners] alongside the INNER twelve, this tells me Judas was specially selected, as they all were. Jesus, being God in the Flesh,I am sure knew from the beginning who Judas was and what he was supposed to do. As the tightwad treasurer of the group, I am sure Judas was aware of the expenses needed for certain functions,taxes etc, and he said so on occasion.
God bless you Joel. In many cases the Holy Spirit would come upon the one/ones chosen and they would prophesy as the Spirit gave them utterance or operate in great power as directed,but not until the resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit did He ever indwell the individual. It was faith which was counted the ones prior to Calvary for their righteousness, as in Hebrews 11's Hall of faith.
One mark of the Apostles was that they had actually seen the resurrected Christ, and Saul's experience on the Damascus road qualified.
Judas killed himself prior to the resurrection and so he was never an Apostle.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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noble
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Thank you Drew, I have been in study in Ecclesiastes in my Thursday morning class I teach, and did miss that.I have been away from certain areas as I teach in others. I just finished an 8 week course I taught on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and the building up of the Church,and between these two groups It's been busy.
I read that study you posted, found it interesting. One thing I note with all these studies from Adam Clark, to McGee, to the old commentaries of Matthew Henry, a difference in how folks and scholars look at particular passages. I then look at the historical background and meld information together as it seems to fit.
Your initial point that the Disciples were just that [learners] and not saved in the sense we understand it was spot on. One thing I do note is there were two occasions where the seventy and the fifty went out in the Power of the Holy Spirit, Judas was there both times and there being approximately 120 + disciples [learners] alongside the INNER twelve, this tells me Judas was specially selected, as they all were. Jesus, being God in the Flesh,I am sure knew from the beginning who Judas was and what he was supposed to do. As the tightwad treasurer of the group, I am sure Judas was aware of the expenses needed for certain functions,taxes etc, and he said so on occasion.
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Caretaker
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An excellent article:
http://www.letusreason.org/doct48.htm
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Judas is also reflective of the ones in the pews who put in their time, but the Lord is not within their hearts.
So true!
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Caretaker
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Bless your hearts. Joel is an old friend from many years ago on Bro. David's BBS and on Bro Gary's Forum He is a gentle caring brother in Christ Jesus our Lord.
In regards to Judas I do not believe he was saved, nor were any of the disciples saved until after the Cross of Christ, for until Jesus died as the Passover Lamb of God, each of the disciples was still under the old covenant of the Law of Moses.
There were NO Apostles until the Church was indwelt by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Judas is also reflective of the ones in the pews who put in their time, but the Lord is not within their hearts.
Judas as a disciple also went forth with the power as did the others, but in Matt. 7 we see a reference to doing signs in the Name but not being known:
Matt. 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Caretaker is here! Yea!
I went and fetched him lol.
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That is all.....
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noble
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Kindgo, Caretaker, yes, these were and are friends. I'll have to get in touch with them both.
But Wildb I expected a valid response to my comments, Do I get one?
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Carol Swenson
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I'd love to see Kindgo come back!!! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
noble introduced himself in New Members Intro.
Yes, the boards were quiet for awhile, so I bumped up some old threads. It's nice to remember our friends, and sometimes add some new thoughts to an old post. And, like WildB said, see how we have grown since then.
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by noble:
I see, superior intellect?
Not at all.
You open up with, "Dearest friends, I see the rapport here is about the same as when I left. Hello Kindgo!![ by the way] "
Who were you friend?
Carol has been re-posting for effect Post from the past for fine tuning and remembrance.
Its very interesting, for the old timers, to remember where one was at Spiritually then and see the growth or lack thereof concerning the topic.
Kindgo got bizzy in her personal life. Perhaps if you private message her she may answer you by way of her E-mail.
![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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Even our modern laws recognize a difference between a crime of passion, and one that is premeditated. What Judas did was cold and calculated; he sold his Master for money.
I know we all have moments of weakness and commit sin. But could a man who had faith in God, and especially one who had faith in the Son of God, do something this wicked in such a cold, premeditated way?
Matthew 26:14-16 (NASB)
14 Then one of the twelve, named Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, "What are you willing to give me to betray Him to you?" And they weighed out thirty pieces of silver to him. 16 From then on he began looking for a good opportunity to betray Jesus.
Matthew 26:24-25 (NASB)
24 "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." 25 And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself."
… we have here an example…of that fixed determination to do evil which is unshaken by the clearest knowledge that it is evil.
Judas heard his crime described in its own ugly reality. He heard his fate proclaimed by lips of absolute love and truth; and notwithstanding both, he comes unmoved and unshaken with his question. The dogged determination in his heart, that dares to see his evil stripped naked and is 'not ashamed,' is even more dreadful than the hypocrisy and sleek simulation of friendship in his face.
Now most men turn away with horror from even the sins that they are willing to do, when they are put plainly and bluntly before them. As an old mediaeval preacher once said, 'There is nothing that is weaker than the devil stripped naked.' By which he meant exactly this—that we have to dress wrong in some fantastic costume or other, so as to hide its native ugliness, in order to tempt men to do it. So we have two sets of names for wrong things, one of which we apply to our brethren's sins, and the other to the same sins in ourselves. What I do is 'prudence,' what you do of the same sort is 'covetousness'; what I do is 'sowing my wild oats,' what you do is 'immorality' and 'dissipation'; what I do is 'generous living,' what you do is 'drunkenness' and 'gluttony'; what I do is 'righteous indignation,' what you do is 'passionate anger.' And so you may go the whole round of evil.
Very bad are the men who can look at their deed, described in its own inherent deformity, and yet say, 'Yes; that is it, and I am going to do it.' 'One of you shall betray Me.' 'Yes; I will betray you!' It must have taken something to look into the Master's face, and keep the fixed purpose steady.
(Expositions of Holy Scripture - St. Matthew 18-28.)
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noble
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I see, superior intellect?
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by noble:
OOOHHHH GOOODY!!! my first reply!!!
Dearest friends, I see the rapport here is about the same as when I left. Hello Kindgo!![ by the way]
Judas was a real member of the inner twelve. A full Disciple. He went out on the missions with the full power of the Holy Spirit as the others were. But as peter had his weak moments so did Judas, but at the wrong time. Remember Jesus came to Earth for one reason and one reason only, to die. God knew this and God used Judas for this purpose. Was Judas saved? although God knew what Judas would do I am sure Judas did not know the decisions he would make. He condemned himself. But he did the job he was supposed to do.
Right.
NEXT!
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
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That is all.....
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noble
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OOOHHHH GOOODY!!! my first reply!!!
Dearest friends, I see the rapport here is about the same as when I left. Hello Kindgo!![ by the way]
Judas was a real member of the inner twelve. A full Disciple. He went out on the missions with the full power of the Holy Spirit as the others were. But as peter had his weak moments so did Judas, but at the wrong time. Remember Jesus came to Earth for one reason and one reason only, to die. God knew this and God used Judas for this purpose. Was Judas saved? although God knew what Judas would do I am sure Judas did not know the decisions he would make. He condemned himself. But he did the job he was supposed to do.
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Carol Swenson
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Judas did not believe.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Ephesians 2:8
Whatever work Judas did does not prove he was empowered by the Holy Spirit. Our Lord Jesus Christ said:
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Matthew 7
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CHEWY
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I tend to see the evidence leaning more toward the fact that Judas was never saved. Being named one of the Apostles didn't save Judas anymore than carrying the title of pastor, elder or deacon does. The fact that Judas may have worked/performed miracles doesn't show me evidence that he was saved. If this were the case the sorceress that God allowed to bring Samuel back to speak to Saul was saved. What about Sampson, was he saved? He lived a wretched rebellious life, even committed suicide [depending on how you interpret suicide] yet his name is listed in the "Hall of Faith." [Hebrews ch.11]
The information seeker-
Chewy-
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Thanks Aaron, very good answer and one I agree with.
I guess it all boils down to the heart and only God knows each persons true heart and motives and only God knows who is saved and who is not.
Only God knows who is "Once saved always saved", it is impossible for us to know but we can only look at the fruits but maybe even then that could be a deception because many say they believe in Yeshua but we cant possibly know their relationship with Him, only He knows.
The only problem i have with the OSAS doctrine is that I feel like it tends to make some people feel like they can do any wicked thing and it doesn't matter to them for they believe that they are saved and can go on lving the same or sometimes even worse than before they believed on Yeshua.
I know this firsthand as I have some friends who claim that the pastor has told them at the alter they are now saved and nothing they do will cause them to lose their salvation.
Instead of telling them to go and sin no more (habitual sin) he simply tells them that from now on it doesnt matter what they do they are saved. And I fear some people take that as their rightousness is as filthy rags so they continue to stay filty instead of letting Yeshua clean them.
I worry that this does more damage to the church body.
I hear ya.
My concern is that there is such a lack of righteous leadership in church that people are more likely to get thrown to the curb than attended to as a child of God is supposed to be attended to.
An analogy I can think of: I would never tell a toddler that if they were rebellious and wicked they would be in danger of being thrown out of the house. The child would not understand. She would be filled with fear having no comprehension of life apart from her father. What an evil thing that would be! However, if a young adult were wicked and rebellious I would warn them of their impending "prodigal experience" if they did not change their ways.
The church is filled with spiritual infants and toddlers because of the lack of righteous leaders; righteous fathers who know how to raise sons. It seems to me that those who preach "peril at every turn" are more willing to cut their losses and distance themselves from the unstable and childish. If the "peril preachers" are so mature then they should "pick up" a child and help them mature. Instead, the rant against the children.
It's not a perfect analogy but it helps to illustrate the my perception of the issue.
Aaron
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Carol Swenson
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Something in human nature makes us want to go to extremes, a weakness from which Christians are not wholly free. “Since we are saved by grace,” some argue, “we are free to live as we please,” which is the extreme of license.
“But we cannot ignore God’s Law,” others argue. “We are saved by grace, to be sure; but we must live under Law if we are to please God.” This is the extreme expression of legalism.
Romans 8:4
He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
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yahsway
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Thanks Aaron, very good answer and one I agree with.
I guess it all boils down to the heart and only God knows each persons true heart and motives and only God knows who is saved and who is not.
Only God knows who is "Once saved always saved", it is impossible for us to know but we can only look at the fruits but maybe even then that could be a deception because many say they believe in Yeshua but we cant possibly know their relationship with Him, only He knows.
The only problem i have with the OSAS doctrine is that I feel like it tends to make some people feel like they can do any wicked thing and it doesnt matter to them for they believe that they are saved and can go on lving the same or sometimes even worse than before they believed on Yeshua.
I know this firsthand as I have some friends who claim that the pastor has told them at the alter they are now saved and nothing they do will cause them to lose their salvation.
Instead of telling them to go and sin no more (habitual sin) he simply tells them that from now on it doesnt matter what they do they are saved. And I fear some people take that as their rightousness is as filthy rags so they continue to stay filty instead of letting Yeshua clean them.
I worry that this does more damage to the church body.
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Thanks for that.
My question would be then were any of the disciples "saved" before Yeshua went to the cross?
To add seasoning to the stew: Consider that the Lamb was slain "from the foundation of the world". That is: before He made man, God already provided for man's salvation.
I know the obvious question: Well, was Jesus crucified about 2000 years ago or was He crucified from the foundation of the world?
The answer is "Yes; on both accounts". ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Aaron
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Kindgo
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Well that is a good question. They were not indwelt, like us, untill pentecost.
I will dig in to my Bible and study this out, before I say more.
for now good nite. ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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yahsway
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Thanks for that.
My question would be then were any of the disciples "saved" before Yeshua went to the cross?
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Kindgo
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Judas was never a believer and therefore never saved. Jesus addressed a group that was following Him and said, "'But there are some of you who do not believe.' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him." (John 6:64).
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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yahsway
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Judas Betrayed Yeshua
Peter Denied Yeshua
The other disciples fled and hid in fear except for the beloved disciple who is mentioned at the cross with Yeshuas mother.
The question is was Judas ever saved? Salvation as I know it could not have occurred until after Yeshua paid the ultimate price for the sins of the world, for sins past, present and future.
Matt 27:3-
verse 4 Judas says "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood"
verse 5 The he (Judas) threw down the pieces of silver in the temple departed and went and hanged himself.
Judas took his own life, but could have asked forgiveness from Yeshua later and would have recieved it. But it was impossible for him because he took his life before Yeshua paid the price for sin.
Peter on the other hand did Deny Yeshua, but later repented and we know the rest of the story.
To Betray the Lord or to Deny the Lord are both sins. But once a person is dead, then its too late to ask for forgiveness, because after death is the judgement. Somewhere down the road in Judas walk with Yeshua, he lost Faith. And without faith it is impossible to please God.
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Eden
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Hi, Aaron. You wrote to Eden quote:
You highlighted the wrong words in the quote of me.
Next time I'll be sure to check with you first. No more bolding without your permission first being granted. ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif)
love, eden
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Good NewsforAll
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It is hard to say if Judas was ever saved.
Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders.
But then it says -
Acts 1:23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they all prayed, “O Lord, you know every heart. Show us which of these men you have chosen 25 as an apostle to replace Judas in this ministry, for he has deserted us and gone where he belongs.”
Where was that??
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Aaron
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You highlighted the wrong words in the quote of me. Again, you're focusing on power and the works thereof. Even Balaam's donkey possessed miraculous power.
The issue is about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Aaron
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Eden
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Hi, Aaron. You wrote quote:
And, since He did not abide in men until after the Spirit was given (after His crucifixion) He did not abide in Judas and, consequently, neither did Judas abide in Him.
Okay, but the power which the 12 apostles received is the same poweer that the apostles received at Pentecost:
Luke 9:1
Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them who believe on His name.
Strong's Concordance
Luke 9:1 Then 1161 he called 4779 0 his 846 twelve 1427 disciples 3101 together 4779 , and 2532 gave 1325 them 846 power 1411 and authority 1849 over 1909 all 3956 devils 1140, and 2532 to cure 2323 diseases 3554.
Act 1:8 But 235 ye shall receive 2983 power 1411, after that the Holy 40 Spirit 4151 is come 1904 upon 1909 you 5209: and 2532 ye shall be 2071 witnesses 3144 unto me 3427 both 5037 in 1722 Jerusalem 2419, and 2532 in 1722 all 3956 Judaea 2449, and 2532 in Samaria 4540, and 2532 unto 2193 the uttermost part 2078 of the earth 1093.
1411. dunamis force (literally or figuratively); specially, miraculous power (usually by implication, a miracle itself):--ability, abundance, meaning, might(-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle(-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.
So the 12 apostles, including Judas, were given 1411 dunamis power by Jesus, the same 1411 dunamis power that the believers received at Pentecost.
Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power 1411: who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with Him.
It would thus seem that in order for a person to receive this power 1411, the Holy Spirit had to be put on someone first, even if only, while Jesus was still alive and under the Law, in "Old Testament fashion".
So when I look at the 12 apostles, at first all 12 were believing Christians and since the other 11 apostles "continued in their faith that Jesus was the Messiah" until their death, they received salvation, but Judas did not receive salvation at his death because Judas stopped believing during his lifetime.
Indeed, we can only believe "while we yet live", and judging from Abraham's example ("who saws His day and believed") we can receive salvation both before Jesus's resurrection by looking toward resurrection and we can receive salvation by looking backward to Jesus's resurrection. And in that, Judas was no different.
The only difference between Judas and the other 11 apostles is that, of the 12, only Judas "stopped believing" and so Judas lost his salvation which can be received only by "continuous believing until and into death".
wih love, eden
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
So, was Judas ever saved? Yes he was. But Judas did not abide in Jesus and went back to his old ways and so lost his salvation.
Which is first: we abiding in Him or He in us?
Jhn 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
I say we have no idea how to abide in him unless He first abides in us.
"We love because He first loved us."
And, since He did not abide in men until after the Spirit was given (after his crucifixion) He did not abide in Judas and, consequently, neither did Judas abide in Him.
For Jesus spoke of the Spirit, in the future, abiding in men:
quote:
Jhn 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--
Jhn 14:17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
As for the displays of Jesus' power through the ones He sent... that alone is not evidence of one's salvation unto eternal life. Indeed one could argue (using the same logic) that Balaam's donkey was likewise "saved" because he spoke the word of the Lord.
No. The fact is this: you will go to Heaven if the Spirit of the Lord is in you. Period.
This part is interesting:
quote:
"..so that I would think that any reasonable person in the church would say that because Judas was an evangelist who preached the gospel, accompanied by miracles, any church person would say when meeting or hearing about such a person that that person is "definitely saved".
I have no doubt they would conclude such things. But a "church person" does not necessarily have the wisdom and revelation needed to properly discern this issue. Such inheritances are only for the sons of God, the people who possess the likeness and character of God in themselves, the people who have the Spirit of God in them.
Aaron
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ANM
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
wildb, calling me a fool does not change the scripture... anything can be taken out of context...
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Matthew 18... are you saying I can not forgive someone and still be "Eternally Saved"...
The sealing of the Holy Spirit does not void the war of the flesh and the spirit...
The New Creature still has a free will,,, the New Creature must chose every day to continue to take up the cross and follow the Holy Spirit...
if you think a Born Again soul can not follow the flesh you are all more illogical than I can conceive...
and the end conclusion of any soul following the flesh and not repenting is death...
that is what the scriptures teach!
Matthew 18... are you saying I can not forgive someone and still be "Eternally Saved"...
i WOULD AGREE WITH WBILL, Outer darkness and weeping and knashing of teeth does'nt mean hell to me, its a chastening in this life. And you folks sure don't take into account to often that Jesus was speaking pre-cross to jews under law most of the time, things have changed.
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whats up?
Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008
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WildB
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posted
A apostate and backslider are two different animals and you yoking them together is not going to plow a even feral .
Stop your sillyness.
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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posted
Apostle means one sent forth, while apostate means one going, or gone backward, as abandoning, forsaking one's profession of faith and practices.
Only a believer can ever rightly be labeled a backslider.
The world or unbeliever can't apostatize (fall away or go backwards), because an unbeliever has never believed unto salvation in Christ. They can't fall when they are already fallen. In order to fall you must have a position from which to fall.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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posted
John 6:70 - 71 (NLT)
70 Then Jesus said, “I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil .” 71 He was speaking of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, one of the Twelve, who would later betray him.
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Eden
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posted
Was Judas ever saved? Judas preached the gospel and Judas, along with the other 11 apostles, must have done miracles in the Name of Jesus, so that I would think that any reasonable person in the church would say that because Judas was an evangelist who preached the gospel, accompanied by miracles, any church person would say when meeting or hearing about such a person that that person is "definitely saved".
Matthew 10
1 And when He had called to Him his 12 disciples, He gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Luke 9
1 Then he called his 12 disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
I mean, if THAT is not a definition of what we call being saved, then what is?
The only thing is, that Judas, through the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches, Judas eventually LOST his salvation, just as the parable of the sower has taught us.
Matthew 13:22
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
Luke 8
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 13
9 And if it bears fruit, well: but if not, then after that you shall cut it down.
John 15:6
If a man abides not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:2
Every branch in Me that bears not fruit He takes away: but every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
So, was Judas ever saved? Yes he was. But Judas did not abide in Jesus and went back to his old ways and so lost his salvation.
love, eden
"keep on believing and you shall be saved"
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
The sealing of the Holy Spirit does not void the war of the flesh and the spirit...
The New Creature still has a free will,,, the New Creature must chose every day to continue to take up the cross and follow the Holy Spirit...
if you think a Born Again soul can not follow the flesh you are all more illogical than I can conceive...
and the end conclusion of any soul following the flesh and not repenting is death...
that is what the scriptures teach!
Sorry, I wasn't very clear: there is another thread about salvation. I hoped that this thread would stay on the topic "Was Judas saved for eternal life or not?"
On its current track this thread will simply merge with the other one. I had hoped it would not.
Aaron
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becauseHElives
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posted
quote:
*Sigh*
I thought we were discussing whether or not Judas was saved.
me too! let us continue I ask ?
Matthew 18... are you saying I can not forgive someone and still be "Eternally Saved"...
The sealing of the Holy Spirit does not void the war of the flesh and the spirit...
The New Creature still has a free will,,, the New Creature must chose every day to continue to take up the cross and follow the Holy Spirit...
if you think a Born Again soul can not follow the flesh you are all more illogical than I can conceive...
and the end conclusion of any soul following the flesh and not repenting is death...
that is what the scriptures teach!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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WildB
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posted
Only a fool would call his brother a fool.
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Aaron
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posted
*Sigh*
I thought we were discussing whether or not Judas was saved.
Aaron
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
wildb, calling me a fool does not change the scripture... anything can be taken out of context...
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Matthew 18... are you saying I can not forgive someone and still be "Eternally Saved"...
The sealing of the Holy Spirit does not void the war of the flesh and the spirit...
The New Creature still has a free will,,, the New Creature must chose every day to continue to take up the cross and follow the Holy Spirit...
if you think a Born Again soul can not follow the flesh you are all more illogical than I can conceive...
and the end conclusion of any soul following the flesh and not repenting is death...
that is what the scriptures teach!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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posted
Ecclesiastes 5:3
For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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