Home / Christian Website Hosting / Christian Domain Names / Christian Search Engine

Christian Message Boards


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Bible Topics & Study   » The Rapture of the Church

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: The Rapture of the Church
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Kindgo,
Jesus speaks of a time of great tribulation that precedes His coming in Matthew 24. The rapture and the second coming, therefore, must be the same event otherwise we would be forced to reverse the order of Jesus' words and make the claim that Jesus is returning not once more, but twice..........totally unscriptural!

The day of the Lord is the day of resurrection as well as the day of wrath.

With love in Christ, Daniel

The reasoning behind this one I could never figure out. If rapture means "catching away", how could Jesus be be returning at the same time? Yes, Jesus' returning twice is unscriptural. This is true. During the Rapture he meets us in the air. His feet don't touch ground.

Try to explain Rev. 19. There is nothing about being 'caught away', just speaks about Jesus and his bride coming back. Doesn't mention anything about any u-turns.

Kindgo explains it like this -

quote:
When Jesus returns (Rev. 19:18), an army follows Him. The army’s members are riding on white horses, and they are clothed in fine linen that is white and clean.
In Revelation 19:8, we are told that the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. If the saints of God are returning with Christ to wage war on the Antichrist, then it is not possible to have a post-trib rapture without us running into ourselves as we are coming and going



--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Another consideration: the New Jerusalem will be made with living stones. We are those living stones. So when it appears He's describing a city He's really describing the dwelling place of God: the saints.

A clue is here: "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think, upon the death of our bodies, our spirits return to God who gave it.

Christ returns with the spirits of those who died in Him. The bodies of those saints are raised first and joined with their spirits in the air.

For those saints who remain, i.e. those who did not die prior to this event, they will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye. In a flash they will receive bodies suitable for eternity. Then, they will be caught up with Christ and the other saints in the air.

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Bloodbought said
quote:
The catching up is not the gathering into the barn. The gathering of the saints into the barn doesn’t come until after the wicked are burned.

When exactly does the gathering into the barn occur?

Good question, Bloodbought.

Kindgo raised an interesting point, namely that if the wicked are burned or destroyed at Jesus Second Coming and if that is also the time when the Christians receive their glorified bodies, who then will the Lord Jesus and the glorified Christians rule over for 1,000 years?

Kindgo therefore proposed that a rapture of the current believers occurs 7 years before the Second Coming and that then during this 7 year period many people on earth will believe in Jesus because of the sudden rapture and then at the Second Coming these "new believers" go into the millennial kingdom while whoever remained an unbeliever even at the end of the 7 years would be destroyed. (Is that about right, Kindgo?)

oneinchrist also reminded me that we had come up against this conumdrum before and that one possibility was that the Lord Jesus already reigns FROM HEAVEN over "the kingdom of God on earth" along with the glorified Christians who have DIED already and have gone to heaven already in their glorified bodies.

And that Jesus and the dead glorified Christians are NOW reigning/ruling with Christ from heaven over the kingdom of God on earth.

But the Bible says that will NOT reign over the kingdom of God on earth (the Christians) so much as that Jesus will rule OVER THE NATIONS WITH A ROD OF IRON.

So it probably not be said that Christ and the dead glorified Christians are ALREADY RULING over the NATIONS with a rod of iron from heaven during the church age.

So the idea notion that the "1,000 years" could a synonym for "the church age" probably does not work because during those 1,000 years the Lord must rule over the NATIONS "with a rod of iron", and I don't think that that has happened or is happening during the church age.

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them: and I saw the souls of them who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection: for on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

However, 1 Thessalonians 4 says the dead in Christ will rise when Jesus comes the Second Time:

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent {precede} them which are asleep {dead}.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So that seems to say that the dead in Christ are dead until the Second Coming of Jesus.

So the only scenario that seems to make any sense is that when the Lord Jesus comes the Second Time, the dead in Christ rise and the alive Christians rise and meet-apantesis Jesus and the angels in the air and we all go down to earth.

The Lord at first ONLY DESTROYS THE ARMIES of the nations of the earth, because the armies came against Jerusalem.

But that left the nations (the citizens) still in their lands but all are without an army now.

Satan is bound for 1,000 years and the Lord now rules these people in the nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years and teaches them the way of God.

And at the end of the 1,000 years, Satan is loosed for a short time to see who would still go with Satan after 1,000 years of instruction, and whoever goes with Satan is then destroyed.

But then what of the people who became righteous during this 1,000 years through the benevolent rule of Jesus? What happens to them at the end of 1,000 years? Rev. 21 is interesting in that regard because Rev. 21's content happens AFTER the new heaven and the new earth was installed:

Revelatin 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Eden here: So this new Jerusalem came down in the NEW earth, not in the current earth.

Revelation 21
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Eden here: Who are these men in th new earth with whom the tabernacle of God now is?

Rev. 21
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said to me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Eden here: He who overcomes on the first earth?

Rev. 21
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs and sorcerers and whoremongers and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

Where are these "without", in the lake of fire?

Rev. 21
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Eden here: "He who overcomes", where, here on the first earth?

Rev. 21
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

What is the second death??? Does someone who experiences the second death stay conscious forever after going into the second death, or is this person burned to ashes?

Malachi 1
1 For, behold, the day comes that shall burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, shall become stubble: and the day that comes shall burn them up, says the LORD of hosts, and shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But to you who fear My name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and you shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the LORD of hosts.

eden
(sorry this is so long)

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bloodbought     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
From Eden.
quote:
Malachi 4
1 For, look, the day comes that shall burn like as an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that comes shall burn them up, says the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But to you who fear My name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and you shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

The acceptable year of the Lord is the church age, but the day of vengeance will occur on the same day that we ascend in the rapture and the wicked are burned on earth:

I agree with what you say, Eden.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares, which are those who will not be caught up at the second coming will be gathered and burned, before the wheat, which is those who are caught up, are gathered into the barn.

The catching up is not the gathering into the barn. The gathering of the saints into the barn doesn’t come until after the wicked are burned.

When exactly does the gathering into the barn occur?

Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi, Kindgo, greetings and Christian peace to you.
Eden had written
quote:
There is nothing to prevent the church from receiving their glorified bodies when meeting Jesus in the air above the earth at Jesus's Second Coming, and then to descend with Jesus to the earth, with all His angels and with all His Christians, we descend together with Jesus to the earth, in our glorified bodies, just like Jesus's body
Then Kindgo answered:
quote:
There’s no indication that once Christ returns and we meet Him in the air, He will make a U-turn and return to heaven.
Yes, it is as you say, Kindgo, that there is indeed no indication that Christ will make a U-turn at His Second Coming in the scriptures, because DOES NOT MAKE A U-TURN at His Second Coming.

Instead, at His Second Coming, we Christians who are alive on the earth meet Jesus in the air and we continue with Jesus down to the earth to which Jesus was going. When we meet Jesus in the air at His Second Coming, He will NOT make a U-turn and go back to heaven with us for 7 years but instead we will CONTINUE WITH JESUS in our glorified bodies from meeting Him in the air TO THE EARTH.

And this scenario is substantiated as follows from the Scriptures:

1 Thessalonians 4
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet {Greek, apantesis} the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Dr. James McKeever, for one, has pointed out that the Greek word for meet in 1Thes.4:17 above is the word apantesis.

This word apantesis occurs only 4 times in the NT (see Strong's 529), and means to go out to meet an important arriving person, and then TO TURN AROUND and ACCOMPANY THAT IMPORTANT PERSON BACK TO WHERE HE IS GOING which is WHERE WE CAME FROM, not where HE came from.

A good example of how apantesis works is found in Acts 28:15, where the Christian brethren of Rome heard that Paul was coming toward Rome, and so the brethren left Rome and came as far as Appii Forum to meet {Greek, apantesis} the oncoming Paul:

Acts 28
14 Where we {the oncoming Paul} found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we {the oncoming Paul} went toward Rome.

15 And from there, when the brethren {of Rome} heard of us, they came to MEET us as far as Appii forum, at The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.

16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.

So we see the brethren went from Rome to Appii Forum, where they met or apantesis with Paul, and then the brethren turned around and accompanied Paul back to Rome.

Let me now apply this use of apantesis to 1 Thes.4:17:

1 Thessalonians 4
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet {Greek, apantesis} the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That is, when the Lord comes toward the earth at the Second Coming, we are caught up from the earth to meet or apantesis the Lord in the air, and then we turn around and accompany the Lord back to the earth where the Lord is headed.

When that catching up occurs, we therefore do not go to heaven, but we accompany the Lord back to the earth in our glorified bodies.

The other two instances in the NT where this word apantesis occurs are Matthew 25:1 and 25:6:

Matthew 25
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet {Greek, apantesis} the bridegroom.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom comes; go out to meet {Greek, apantesis} him.

These two verses from Matthew 25 refer to the same event as that described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 at the top of this Topic.


So, Kindgo, there IS evidence in the Scriptures that when the Lord Jesus comes at His Second Coming, we will MEET APANTESIS with Him in the air IN OUR GLORIFIED BODIES, and then we will go WITH HIM WHERE HE AS THE IMPORTANT PERSON IS GOING, namely to the earth, along with Him in our glorified bodies:

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV)

51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must yet put on immortality.

Psalm 47:5
For God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

17 Then we who are alive and remain {on earth} shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to MEET APANTESIS the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then the LORD is not the one who turns around back to heaven with us for 7 years, but WE are the ones who turn around WITH HIM TO EARTH after having been caught up IN OUR GLORIFIED BODIES to MEET APANTESIS HIM in the air and WE accompany Him were HE is going, namely to the earth.

So there is plenty of evidence that the Lord DOES NOT make a U-turn at His Second Coming, but instead that We make a U-turn after apantesis meeting Him in the air and accompany Him in our glorified bodies to earth.

with love, eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
1 Thessalonians 4:16 - 17 (NLT) 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Corinthians 15:51 - 52 (NLT) 51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.

Revelation 3:10 (NLT) 10 “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (NKJV) 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Posts: 6771 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Michael Harrison     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Revelation provides one of the best ever opportunities to 'lean to our own understanding' to figure it out, which is how scripture is coped with in general. If there is a rapture, there is absolutely no need to think about it. One would be thinking about the wrong thing, clearly. For if one was thinking about the rapture, and Jesus came, he or she would miss it for not seeing HIm. It is good not to be distracted from Jesus, ever (not even by this)!

NO! I think that the reason that they will be saying "Where is His promised return, for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were," is because all were looking for a rapture - which didn't happen.

People who think that they are going to escapt the terrible time are going to be sorely dissapointed. This is why there will be a great falling away.

The biggest crux of the rapture is the notion that He will 'keep them' from that terrible time (I don't remember how it is stated). This it the foundation of the rapture theory. But the misunderstanding is that when it says that he will spare us from that time, it does not mean that He will take us out of the world. He even says, in a prayer to the Father in the gospels that He does not pray that the Father takes them out of the world. That should be a huge clue that there may not be a rapture.

There is a hiding place in Him. There is a place of overcoming. If one does not find it out (because of misreading scripture perhaps) he will suffer. There is something good going on about the church concerning this terrible time.

But the church is the woman towards whom there will be cast a flood. That would put the church in the world after the time that the pretribbers would expect the church to have been taken out.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kindgo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
John 14:1-3 states:


1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

What this passage means to me is the place that Christ will prepare for us will be ours for eternity, and not a place to be vacated after a few short years!

There’s no indication that once Christ returns and we meet Him in the air, He will make a U-turn and return to heaven.


Rather, Christ will return to earth with His saints where He’ll defeat the Antichrist and reign for a thousand years (Rev. 19-20).

It is at the end of His Millennial reign that the New Jerusalem will descend (Rev. 21:2), and this is where all who are saved will spend eternity with Christ. This is the “place” Christ speaks of in John 14:2-3.

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kindgo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, the Rapture teaching in Scripture is very important for the Christian Believer.

I rest assured, the Rapture will take place!

I like the words of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 as follows...

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul says comfort each other with these words above. So, Be ye comforted, Bloodbought, You have a mansion waiting for you.


John 14:1-3--Jesus says...

1. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

I believe and I am comforted.

God Bless You!

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bloodbought     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
Throughout scripture there are types and signs of the Rapture -- Noah's salvation from the flood, Lot's salvation from the destruction of Sodom, the Jewish tradition of a bridegroom preparing a place for his bride and coming suddenly for her, after which they spend seven days together, and on and on.

Genesis 7:11-13 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. 13In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Luke 17:29-30 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

In the same day that Christ returns, believers will be saved and the wicked destroyed. It all happens on the same day.

quote:
Think about this, too. If Jesus Christ won't be coming back for us until the end of the tribulation, at which point the millennial kingdom will begin, why is He building mansions for us in Heaven right now?

The mansions are coming down.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917

Icon 1 posted      Profile for WildB   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Bible, King James Version


2Thes.2

[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

NOW PRAYERFULLY READ [8]

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 7983 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kindgo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
One more thing..

It is the difference between living in expectation of having to endure God's wrath during the tribulation, which would tend to focus Christians on preparing themselves for persecution and death, and living in expectation of a sudden, joyous reunion with our Saviour, which would tend to focus our efforts on evangelization.

Throughout scripture there are types and signs of the Rapture -- Noah's salvation from the flood, Lot's salvation from the destruction of Sodom, the Jewish tradition of a bridegroom preparing a place for his bride and coming suddenly for her, after which they spend seven days together, and on and on.

Think about this, too. If Jesus Christ won't be coming back for us until the end of the tribulation, at which point the millennial kingdom will begin, why is He building mansions for us in Heaven right now?

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kindgo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Luke 4

14 Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and news of Him went out through all the surrounding region.
15 And He taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all.
Jesus Rejected at Nazareth

16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.
17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:
18 “ The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD.”

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
22 So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth. And they said, “Is this not Joseph’s son?”

Had Jesus finished the prophecy, He would have read these words...

Isaiah 61

1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”

2 comings are given in this passage...Jesus came the first time to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD...He rightly stopped there, otherwise He would have had to fulfill the line after that (the day of vengeance) and thus fulfill the judgment of the wicked and the complete restoration of the nation of Israel that day.

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kindgo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Bloodbought,

You miss the difference between the prophecies about His coming in blessing for His own, and the prophecies about His coming in judgment on the world.

This coming in judgment is called “the day of the Lord.” Isaiah 13:9 describes “the day of the Lord” as “Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger.” Amos 5:20 says,“Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?

Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” Jeremiah 46:10 calls it

“A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries.” Joel 2:11 says that “the day of the Lord is great and very terrible;” adding, “Who can endure it?”


“But who can endure the day of His coming?

And who can stand when He appears?

For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap.” (Malachi 3:2)


And “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!

For what good is the day of the Lord to you?

It will be darkness, and not light. It will be as though a man fled from a lion, And a bear met him!

Or as though he went into the house, Leaned his hand on the wall, And a serpent bit him!” (Amos 5:18-19)

Even though Amos 5:18 pronounces this “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord,” 2 Timothy 4:8 tells us that the Lord will give “the crown of righteousness” to all who “have loved His appearing.” Titus 2:13 exhorts us to be “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

And Hebrews 9:28 says that “To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.” And after describing His coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, verse 18 says “Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

Even as the prophecies about “the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow” (1Peter 1:11) spoke of different times, the prophecies about out Lord’s coming in blessing and in judgment speak of different times. This is not just an opinion. It can be plainly seen by a careful examination of the two following scriptures:

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

“Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” (Jude 14-15)

In the first of these, “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven” and “we shall be caught up... to meet the Lord in the air.”


In the second one “the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints.”


In the first one He comes to gather His own to Himself, for “we.. shall be caught up... to meet the Lord in the air.”

In the second one He comes with them, for He “comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all.”

If He is going to come for His own and He is also going to come with them, He has to come for them before He can come with them.

This is a simple matter of the meaning of words. No other interpretation is possible.

These two scriptures, in and by themselves, do not indicate how long the delay between these two incidents might be, but they clearly indicate a delay.

Other scriptures give an indication of how long this delay will be. The most significant of these is “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Revelation 3:10)


So, in the light of such strong evidence , what do we learn from this promise?

There is a time “of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”


But these who “have kept” our Lord’s “command to persevere”will be kept “from,” that is, out of, that time.

Can any reasonable person deny that this time of testing is the time commonly called “the tribulation”?

But the faithful are promised that they will be kept out of this time. We know that this time will end at the time of which we read, “Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.” (Revelation 19:20)


But that is just after Revelation 19:11-16, where we see the Lord coming in power and great glory to judge the earth.

So His coming for His own is before the time of testing, the tribulation, and His coming in vengeance is after that time.

Now many produce various arguments to prove that this conclusion is incorrect.

But essentially every argument they produce is one that fails to take into account the difference between the scriptures about our Lord’s coming in blessing to receive His own to Himself, and those about His coming in vengeance to judge the world. They typically insist that there is no such distinction.


But the distinctions in the purpose of these two comings, in our proper attitudes about these two comings, and in their timing are not their only differences.

I Thessalonians 4:17, which was quoted above, plainly states that we “shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”

But when he comes in judgment “in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” (Zechariah 14:4)


In the first case, He meets His own “in the air.”

There is no word of Him actually touching the earth, but rather the opposite is implied. In the second case we are expressly told that He “will stand on the Mount of Olives.”

Again, Revelation 1:7 says,“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.” But 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says, “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” There is no way that “every eye” could even possibly see something that will take place “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bloodbought     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:

In a post-trib rapture, we would rise in the air to meet the Lord, then do a 180-degree U-turn and come back down to earth. Revelation 1:7 states that Christ will appear out of the clouds and come down to earth. Zechariah 14:4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If He's already headed our way, why would we need to be caught up to meet Him?

I’m looking forward to going out to greet Him and welcome Him with open arms.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bloodbought     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
FALSE VIEWS OF THE RAPTURE

quote:
4. That the rapture will not occur until the end of the tribulation. This is known as post-tribulationism, and is refuted by 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and Revelation 3:10.
Jesus praying for His elect said,
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

The elect will remain in the world and experience tribulation and may be martyred for the faith, but they are not appointed to wrath, which is spiritual evil.

At the second coming there will be a harvest in which both the wheat and the tares are harvester together. The wheat is saved and the tares are burned.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kindgo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"When the Israelites were in the land of Goshen in Egypt, the plagues were occurring in the rest of Egypt but the plagues did not touch the Israelites in the land of Misr.

When, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were in the fiery furnace of Nebuchadnezzar, there was a Fourth Person in the fiery furnace with them and "not a hair on their head or their clothes was singed".

And also, I believe in Isaiah, "a thousand shall fall on your left side and ten thousand on your right, but it shall not come near you".

Indeed we are not appointed unto wrath, but the Lord will leave the Christians on earth during the "tribulation" to show that God "does put a difference between the profane and holy", as He did with the Israelites in the land of Goshen, the wrath of God passed over them.

So shall it be done with us Christians too in the latter days. We will not be taken out of the earth but will be left in the earth as a witness to God's power until the Second Coming of Jesus.

We are nt appointed unto wrath, but unto salvation, and as with Israel in the land of Goshen the plague shall not come near us.

Which is also why the believers are "sealed unto the day of redemption", meaning, those who are sealed will be passed over by the destroying angel.

with love, eden "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Eden, Born Again.. [happyhappy]


God Hath Not Appointed Us to Wrath..
In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath. This wrath is plainly God's anger that will be poured out during the tribulation. Pre-trib believers interpret this as meaning that Christians will be removed from the earth.

Post-trib believers tell a different story. They describe this as meaning that God will protect Christians during the tribulation and pour this wrath out on the unbelievers only. This idea runs against the statement made in Revelation 13:7, in which the Antichrist is given power to make war with the saints and to overcome them. A post-trib view would make God's promise of protection from wrath into a lie.

In years past, it was possible to think of being protected from the guns and swords of that day. Today, when any major war would involve nuclear and chemical weapons, it's impossible to expect that same kind of protection. When Nagasaki, Japan was bombed during World War II, the bomb exploded over a Catholic church.

Everyone who was in the center of the explosion died--both Christians and non-Christians. The only way to validly interpret God's promise of protection from wrath is by viewing 1 Thessalonians 5:9 as the bodily removal of the Church from this world.

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kindgo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"There is nothing to prevent the church from meeting Jesus in the air above the earth at Jesus's Second Coming, and then we all descend with Jesus, with His angels and with all Christians, we descend with Jesus to the earth, in our glorified bodies just like Jesus's body.

Both can easily happen on the same day.

eden "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In the pre-trib scenario, after we rise to meet the Lord in the air, we will go to heaven and abide there seven years. At the end of that period, Christ will come down to earth, defeat the Antichrist, and cleanse the temple.


In a post-trib rapture, we would rise in the air to meet the Lord, then do a 180-degree U-turn and come back down to earth. Revelation 1:7 states that Christ will appear out of the clouds and come down to earth. Zechariah 14:4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If He's already headed our way, why would we need to be caught up to meet Him?

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi, Carol Swenson, regarding your article's Item 3 and Item 4:
quote:

3. That the rapture will not occur until the middle of the tribulation, thus forcing the entire church to go through the first three and a half years of God’s wrath. This theory is called mid-tribulationism, and is refuted by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, where he says, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath.…”

4. That the rapture will not occur until the end of the tribulation. This is known as post-tribulationism, and is refuted by 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and Revelation 3:10.

When the Israelites were in the land of Goshen in Egypt, the plagues were occurring in the rest of Egypt but the plagues did not touch the Israelites in the land of Misr.

When, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were in the fiery furnace of Nebuchadnezzar, there was a Fourth Person in the fiery furnace with them and "not a hair on their head or their clothes was singed".

And also, I believe in Isaiah, "a thousand shall fall on your left side and ten thousand on your right, but it shall not come near you".

Indeed we are not appointed unto wrath, but the Lord will leave the Christians on earth during the "tribulation" to show that God "does put a difference between the profane and holy", as He did with the Israelites in the land of Goshen, the wrath of God passed over them.

So shall it be done with us Christians too in the latter days. We will not be taken out of the earth but will be left in the earth as a witness to God's power until the Second Coming of Jesus.

We are nt appointed unto wrath, but unto salvation, and as with Israel in the land of Goshen the plague shall not come near us.

Which is also why the believers are "sealed unto the day of redemption", meaning, those who are sealed will be passed over by the destroying angel.

with love, eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi, Carol Swenson, I'll just address your article's Item 1:
quote:
1. That the rapture is the same as the Second Coming of Christ. False. At the rapture Jesus comes for his church in the air, while at the Second Coming he comes with his people to the earth. See Jude 14, 15; Revelation 19:11-16.
There is nothing to prevent the church from meeting Jesus in the air above the earth at Jesus's Second Coming, and then we all descend with Jesus, with His angels and with all Christians, we descend with Jesus to the earth, in our glorified bodies just like Jesus's body.

Both can easily happen on the same day.

eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
FALSE VIEWS OF THE RAPTURE


1. That the rapture is the same as the Second Coming of Christ. False. At the rapture Jesus comes for his church in the air, while at the Second Coming he comes with his people to the earth. See Jude 14, 15; Revelation 19:11-16.

2. That the rapture will include only some Christians, and that most Christians will be left behind to endure the tribulation. This theory is refuted by one little word in 1 Corinthians 15:51, where Paul says that “we shall all be changed.” This false view is often called the “partial rapture” theory.

3. That the rapture will not occur until the middle of the tribulation, thus forcing the entire church to go through the first three and a half years of God’s wrath. This theory is called mid-tribulationism, and is refuted by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, where he says, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath.…”

4. That the rapture will not occur until the end of the tribulation. This is known as post-tribulationism, and is refuted by 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and Revelation 3:10.

The New Testament pictures the Church as the body and bride of Christ. If the mid-tribulation or post-tribulation view were correct, then a part of this body would suffer amputation, and a section of the bride would be left behind. In addition to this, one would be forced to conclude that all bodies of carnal departed Christians would likewise be left in the grave. This simply is not the clear teaching of the Word of God.

The Bible teaches that the rapture is pre-tribulational in nature and includes all believers . See Romans 5:9 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10. Perhaps the strongest proof of this statement is the fact that up to chapter 6 of Revelation the church is mentioned many times, but from chapter 6 to chapter 19 (the period of the tribulation) there is no mention whatsoever of the church on earth. In fact, the only godly group which Satan can find to persecute is the nation Israel! See Revelation chapter 12.

In Revelation 4:1 John declares, “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither.…“We are told that Christians are God’s ambassadors on earth (2 Cor. 5:20) and that he will someday declare war on this earth. The first thing a king or president does after he declares war on another country is to call his ambassadors home! Thus we conclude that the church will escape the tribulation.

(Willmington's)

Posts: 6771 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kindgo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Before the Antichrist can be revealed, Paul said a certain "He" must be taken out of the way.

According to 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the "He" that must be removed is widely thought to be the Holy Spirit.

It has been promised that the Holy Spirit would never leave the Church, and without the working of the Holy Spirit remaining on earth, no one could be saved during the tribulation.

The removal of the Church, which is indwelt by the Holy Ghost, would seem the best explanation for this dilemma. The working of the Holy Spirit could go on during the tribulation, but His influence would be diminished because of the missing Church.

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kindgo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
When Jesus returns (Rev. 19:18), an army follows Him. The army’s members are riding on white horses, and they are clothed in fine linen that is white and clean.

In Revelation 19:8, we are told that the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. If the saints of God are returning with Christ to wage war on the Antichrist, then it is not possible to have a post-trib rapture without us running into ourselves as we are coming and going

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kindgo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and slay all the ungodly, who would be left to populate the earth during the millennium?

The Church is raptured before the tribulation, a vast number of souls are saved during this seven-year time frame, and those who make it through the tribulation go into the millennium while the unsaved are cast into hell.

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Good morning Eden,
I think we stumbled over that 1,000 yr. question before. If my memory serves me right we considered the possiblility that Jesus' reign may be in effect now as we speak and that the 1000 years language possibly holds more of a symbolic significance as to a time period appointed by God. It appears that much of Revelation uses numbers to offer us a God perspective......but not the numbers themselves as important as the what they may stand for. For example: When Jesus says we are to forgive up to 70x7 He is not telling us to keep a tally and stop at number 490......but what He is doing is using numbers to express something that is ongoing and or perfect. I believe that the Lord does much of the same thing in Revelation. Now please dont get me wrong. I do not believe that all numbers in scripture are symbolic, but I do believe that some are and some aren't.

With love in Christ.

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree with oneinchrist that the rapture of the church and the day of vengeance of the LORD upon the unbelievers will occur "on the same day". Look for instance at these parables that the Lord gave us to figure it out:

Mark 13:27
And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

In the above, the elect are still on earth.

And consider this parable told by Jesus:

Matthew 13
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind.

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and they sat down, and they gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just.

In the above verse, the good fish are still with the bad fish in the net, and then Jesus interpreted the parable for us by saying that the bad fish represented the wicked people (the unbelievers) and the good fish represented the just (the believers).

So note that the just are still together with wicked when the angels come to sever the wicked from the just and the wicked are thrown away at that time.

Or consider the Israelites in Egypt in the land of Goshen. On the same day that there was punishment in Egypt, the plague was not in the land of Goshen.

And on the same day that Lot escaped to Zoar and was saved, the LORD rained fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah.

There are only 2 events spoken of in the Bible, and the first event has been completed:

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Luke 4
16 And he {Jesus} came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up to read.

17 And there was delivered to him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them who are bruised,

19 And to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And then he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21And he said to them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

When Jesus came the first time, He came to be the acceptable year of the Lord (he healed the sick, mend the brokenhearted, and so on).

But then Jesus sat down after saying v.19: "And to preach the acceptable year of the Lord..

But then he sat down. But Isaiah said there would be 2 events:

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, AND to proclaim the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn.

Jesus completed the first, acceptable year, part of His two-fold ministry, when Jesus came the first time. Only the second part of His ministry still needs to be done: "the day of vengeance".

Notice also the loviness of it being an "acceptable year", but only a "day of vengeance".

And likewise consider the parable of the wheat and the tares:

Matthew 13
29 But Jesus said, No; lest while you gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Both tares and wheat are still together when the tares are bound first to be burned, and the wheat is gathered into the barn at that time.

So also in Noah's day: Noah's families were saved in the ark on the same day that the others drowned next to the ark.

To be sure, there will be a rapture. On the day of vengenace when this happens, we who are still alive and are believers, will be caught up in the air with the Lord who is coming with His angels toward earth, and the dead in Christ are also coming up to join us in the air, all at that same time.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them who are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We all then together go down to the earth with the Lord and His angels and with the mulitude of saints in their glorified bodies and we land together on the earth on that same day when the wicked are punished and when the Lord sets down on the mount of Olives.

Zechariah 14:4
And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives which is on the east side of Jerusalem, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Then the wicked will be severed from the just and then Malachi 4 will be completed:

Malachi 4
1 For, look, the day comes that shall burn like as an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that comes shall burn them up, says the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But to you who fear My name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and you shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

The acceptable year of the Lord is the church age, but the day of vengeance will occur on the same day that we ascend in the rapture and the wicked are burned on earth:

Malachi 4
3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the LORD of hosts.

Now, a good question is, if all the wicked are punished and burned on that day, who will the glorified Christians and the Lord Jesus be ruling over for 1,000 years? [1zhelp] [Bible] [roll on floor]

with love, eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor shall ever be.

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of the trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bloodbought     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The book of Revelation is divided into three main revelations relating to the enthronement of Christ.
First there is the enthronement of Christ in heaven chapters 1-5.
Second there is the enthronement of Christ on earth chapters 6-20.
Third there is the enthronement of Christ in the new creation chapters 21-22.

In chapters 1-3 we see Christ in heaven communicating with the church on earth by the Spirit and the church on earth functioning for Christ in heaven. In chapters 4-5 we see Christ in supreme authority.

In chapter 6:2 we see a “white horse” indicating the beginning of the enthronement of Christ on earth and in chapter 19:11 again we see a “white horse” indicating the beginning of the enthronement of Christ in the new creation. In between these two “white horses” there is what is described as the great tribulation and the wrath of God.
Believers will experience great tribulation while those who are unrepentant will experience the wrath of God.

Chapters 6-20 are divided into two groups showing the same thing from two different standpoints. Chapters 6-11 are showing events from an earthly viewpoint, while chapters 12-20 are showing events from a heavenly viewpoint. These are two parallel accounts with very similar terminology.

The seven vials in chapters 15-16 are a parallel of the seven trumpets in chapters 8-9

To see the return of Christ from the earthly viewpoint account, we need to go to chapter 11 verses 15 to the end, which is after the last trumpet, or, go to chapter 19, which is the parallel account, to see the return of Christ from the heavenly viewpoint.

Pre tribulation rapture is not taught in scripture.

Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kindgo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh one thing tho...

Jesus did say, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44).

The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation.

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kindgo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Daniel, Sorry but I don't understand what you are saying. [Confused]

Could you post scriptures to help explain it better?

Thanks... [thumbsup2]

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Kindgo,
Jesus speaks of a time of great tribulation that precedes His coming in Matthew 24. The rapture and the second coming, therefore, must be the same event otherwise we would be forced to reverse the order of Jesus' words and make the claim that Jesus is returning not once more, but twice..........totally unscriptural!

The day of the Lord is the day of resurrection as well as the day of wrath.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kindgo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

The word "rapture", though not mentioned in the Bible, is the term used to describe the events in the scriptures above. It is derived from the Latin word "raptus", which means "caught away", and is equivalent to the Greek word "harpazo". It is this Greek word that is translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, and refers to the catching away of the faithful Christians from the earth to meet the Lord in the air. "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye", millions of believers will instantly disappear from the earth as they go to be with Christ, along with all faithful believers who have died throughout the New Testament age. No doubt, this will leave the inhabitants of the earth in a time of great chaos and confusion. It will open the door for the Antichrist to come in and establish a temporary world peace, and bring a semblance of order back to this chaotic world as it prepares to enter the period of Great Tribulation.

While there are many scriptures which speak of events which must occur before Christ's Second Coming at the end of the seven-year tribulation period, there are no events which must happen before the Rapture, and it could happen at any moment. It is this possibility of His return at an unknown time which, the Bible teaches, should influence our daily lives and behavior. It also gives us assurance that our labors for Christ, no matter how seemingly insignificant, are not in vain. The apostle John writes, "It doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." (1 John 3:2-3; see also 2 Peter 3:11-13; Titus 2:12-14; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58).

When the Rapture occurs, several events will occur at the trumpet's sound:

(1) The "dead in Christ" will be resurrected.

(2) Believers who are alive upon the earth will be changed, and their bodies will put on immortality, and "we shall be like Him."

(3) Then the changed believers will be caught up together with the resurrected believers "in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

It will no doubt be a great time of joy and celebration as we are united with our loved ones. We will finally see our Savior face to face, and our bodies of sin will be changed in His glorious likeness!

Therefore, we see the five-fold purpose for the Rapture of the Church: (1) to unite all Christians, living and dead, with Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17); (2) to change our bodies like unto His glorious body (1 Corinthians 15:51-57; Philippians 3:20-21); (3) to reward and judge believers at Christ's judgment seat (1 Corinthians 3:13-15; Romans 14:10-12; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Timothy 4:1,7-8); (4) to remove us from the earth that we may escape the wrath of God during the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:1-10); (5) and to remove the hinderer of lawlessness (or the Church), and pave the way for the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-10).


Redeemed, be ready today, clothed in white robes, being holy and prepared for the day of our departure. All inhabitants of Earth must keep in mind that the day when we will give an account for the good or the evil we've done is almost upon us. Jesus is calling upon us today to keep our garments clean. As we run the race, let us be on guard, that we may be counted worthy of the grace of God, and the salvation that is a freely given gift from God..."

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator


 
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Christian Visual Media | Privacy Statement



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0