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Author
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Topic: Oh No, I Think I Just Lost My Salvation!
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
It is a cop out to say that the backslider was never saved. It is denial. It is convenient! It makes it easy for one to embrace osas. (And so many supportive scriptures are so out of context.) But trying to convince the osas crowd of it is harder even than convincing one that there is no rapture.
So let's talk rapture for one brief momemt. If there is a rapture, one will not have to worry about it at all, if they are where they are supposed to be in Him. So there is no point in focusing on it. One who is in good stead will not have to expend any energy expounding on it. But if there is not a rapture, some little faiths are going to take a beating. They are going to fail to trust. They are going to faint. If they are cornered in the near future and given a choice to deny Christ or die, what of them if they deny Christ? Were they not saved to begin with if they fail the courage to stand? Or was their faith shallow, like the roots on a plant, grown from a seed that fell on the stony ground?
You who are so sure of yourselves should take a second look now, before that day takes everyone by surprise. And confidence in osas is truly doubtful. One should seek to be sure of their faith, rather than place confidence in a supposed fact that sounds irrefutible.
In this passage below, the admonishment that preceeded it spoke of the consequences that befell those who murmured, fornicated, or lusted, who fell in the wilderness. The admonishment is that these things are writen for our admonishment, so that we would not take anything for granted, such as osas, and, if you will, "Be of an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the Living God."
"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." (1Co 10:12)
Here are more undeniable verses, though, the osas crowd will find a way around them, they think:
Let's start with this one and take them one at a time, for they are profound in their individuality:
"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." (Rom 11:21)
Some, looking at this passage will rationalize it by saying that Jesus was talking about those who do not repent, will therefore not be spared. But consider this next verse, which preceeds the one we just read:
"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" (Rom 11:20 )
And what about it if we analyze it? "Thou standest by, what, faith? It is clear, and literal, implying that without faith, one is not standing, but these were, so says He! Therefore His message to those who are standing is - compromising with the world is literally lack of faith.
Then, it says that because of unbelief these were broken off, reinforcing the idea that they were "IN," not out. And where does it go from there? If I could only say this loudly enough for it to echo around the world: It says next: "Be not highminded, but fear." We can stop here. This shouldn't be skimmed over lightly. It should snap one to attention!!!
But why did He say all of this, including the next verses?
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
As I just stated above, how that scripture says not to be highminded, but fear. In other words, do not be self confident, or assured. Do not take anything for granted, but fear, and search. You are grafted in, but the message is loud, you can be grafted out.
And for the final admonishment from this group of verses:
"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Rom 11:22)
Take it personally! What does it say? "If thou CONTINUE in His goodness," otherwise thou shalt be CUT off!!!
WAKE UP PEOPLE~
For He further says:
"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again." (Rom 11:23)
See the conditions here? "If they abide not STILL in unbelief..."
What says He may happen under those conditions? There are results.
"For God is able to graft them in again."
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Aaron
unregistered
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posted
I'm not a "once saved always saved" believer in the literal sense of the phrase. Firstly, because I believe the scriptures talk about many different salvations. Some salvations you MAY lose. Some you cannot.
However, in the case where salvation = counted among God's children, no, I do not believe THAT kind of salvation can be lost.
And contrary to this condemnation written here:
quote:
According to all you who support the “Once Saved Always Saved” damnable doctrine there is no reason to live a separate and holy life after being born again.
..quite the opposite is true. After coming out from the doctrine of "God is lurking about ready to catch you unawares so He can smite you" (as an aside: notice the similarity here, between their understanding of God and the enemy described in 1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.)as I was saying; after coming out of the above doctrine I have grown and matured beyond what I thought possible. Certainly, it was never possible to grow and mature under the "God as enemy" doctrine, for anyone who suggested that God is NOT simply waiting to nail us would be branded a heretic and expelled from the group (either officially or unofficially). They would be accused of promoting a sinful life (see the above quote).
So, I wonder, "Why do people endeavor to wrap their fellow saints in shrouds of legalism? In denim jumpers, long beards, and certain "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle" practices that have an appearance of wisdom but are empty of any value for the children of God?"
Truthfully, I'm not sure. But I think it has something to do with knowing the scriptures very well but not knowing (very well) the One of Whom the scriptures are written. For this there is only one remedy: revelation. And that is the work of the Holy Spirit. For the most part, I must be content for Him to do His work without any "help" from me.
Bless you,
Aaron
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
quote:
According to all you who support the “Once Saved Always Saved” damnable doctrine there is no reason to live a separate and holy life after being born again.
Even though a holy and separate life is what Yahshua died that those who receive His “Grace” could live?
According to the perverted antichrist doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” all any believer can lose is their rewards!
Matthew 7:15 - 20 (NLT)
15 “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves . 16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. 19 So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. 20 Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.
becauseHElives is throwing rocks!
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
25 REASONS YOU CANNOT LOSE YOUR SALVATION
ETERNAL LIFE IS ETERNAL. It is NOT “life until you sin again.” Jesus promised us “eternal life” and it is ridiculous to think that He didn’t mean by that, that He was giving us a life that would never end. Eternal life begins when we believe (John 5:24).
SALVATION IS A “BY BIRTH” SITUATION. A birth cannot be undone or reversed. “Once born, always born.” Jesus did not teach a man must be born again and again and perhaps even yet again. We don’t have a second opportunity to be born again physically, nor do we have or even need a second opportunity to be born again spiritually once we have received our spiritual birth.
SALVATION (ETERNAL LIFE) IS A FREE GIFT. It is not something that is earned or can be deserved. Works earn “rewards,” not salvation. Romans 6:23.
SALVATION IS BASED UPON HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT OURS. Philippians 3:9 and 2 Corinthians 5:21 teach that it is Christ’s righteousness that is imputed to our account. If our salvation is based upon Christ’s righteousness and not our own, how could our own unrighteousness ever make His righteousness insufficient? When God declares us righteous, it is settled.
WE ARE KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD. 1 Peter 1:4,5 teaches this. If it is God’s power that keeps us, who is stronger or more powerful than God?
JESUS IS HOLDING US IN HIS HAND. John 10:28. We are not holding onto God; He is holding onto us! We could let go; He cannot and will not.
WE SHALL NEVER COME INTO CONDEMNATION OR JUDGEMENT. John 5:24 teaches us this. As in John 3:16 and John 10:28 wherein we are told we will NEVER PERISH, and in John 11:25 wherein Jesus said the believer will “NEVER DIE,” here we are told the believer will “NEVER COME INTO CONDEMNATION.” If a person could lose salvation, this would not be true.
WE HAVE ALREADY PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE. Now get this. According to John 5:24, the believer has already passed (past tense) from death into life. This cannot be speaking of physical life but must be speaking of spiritual death and life. We have never yet been dead physically but we were dead spiritually.
THE BELIEVER SHALL NEVER DIE. In John 11:25. Jesus said to Martha that “whoever lives and believes in me shall NEVER die.” He surely was not speaking of physical death so He must have been speaking of a spiritual death.
JESUS SAID HE WOULD NOT CAST US OUT. As in Hebrews 13:5 wherein Jesus said He would never leave us nor forsake us, in John 6:37, He tells us He will never cast us out.
JESUS WILL LOSE NOTHING (THAT INCLUDES US). John 6:39 tells us that Jesus will lose nothing but “raise it up at the last day.” Whatever we are, we are something! This answers those who say He will not cast us out but we could choose to walk out on our own.
WE ARE “JUSTIFIED” (DECLARED RIGHTEOUS) BY FAITH. When it is God who does the justifying, that is all we need. Romans 5:1 teaches us that it is because we are justified by faith that we have “peace with God.”
WE ARE SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. When it is God who does the sealing, man cannot break the seal. The Holy Spirit is given to every believer to be with him and in him forever. 1 Corinthians 6:19, 20 teaches us that we are “bought with a price,” the blood of Christ.
THE HOLY SPIRIT IS OUR “EARNEST” (GUARANTEE) OF OUR INHERITANCE. Ephesians 1:13, 14 tells us this. An “earnest” is a sort of down payment and is forfeited if the grantor backs out.
GOD CANNOT LIE AND HE HAS PROMISED. Titus 1:2 teaches us that God cannot lie and He has promised us eternal life. God said it; that settles it!
GOD SAYS WE CAN KNOW WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. We are taught in 1 John 5:13 that the believer can “KNOW” that he "HAS" eternal life. How could he possibly know it if he could still wind up in hell?
EVEN IF WE ARE FAITHLESS, GOD REMAINS FAITHFUL FOR HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF. (2 Timothy 2:13) We are “in Christ” once we have believed.
OUR SINS (ALL OF THEM) HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN. If all sins are forgiven, how could any sin send a believer to hell? Acts 13:38, 39 says that “all who believe are justified from all things.” To be justified is to be declared righteous. When Christ died for sin, it was for all sin (past, present, and future).
NOBODY (INCLUDING SATAN) CAN LAY ANYTHING TO OUR CHARGE. Satan may accuse us for what we have done but it was God who sent His Son to pay the penalty for our sins and it is He who declares us righteous. If God declares us righteous, who is Satan to say otherwise? Romans 8:33.
NOTHING CAN SEPARATE US FROM GOD’S LOVE. Romans 8:37-39 teaches this clearly. “Nothing” certainly includes our sin.
THE BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THAT SALVATION CAN BE LOST. While there are numerous verses that some use to teach that salvation can be lost, there is no clear verse that says such a thing. There are verses that teach subjects like “falling from grace,” “working out your own salvation,” enduring to the end,” and “overcoming” which people try to use to teach the possibility of losing one’s salvation but this is not the case.
THE GIFTS AND CALLINGS OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE. Irrevocable means incapable of being recalled or revoked, irreversible (Romans 11:29). Nobody can argue that salvation is not a gift. See Romans 5 and notice how many times the word “gift” is used in describing salvation, even the term “free gift.”
BELIEVERS ARE A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST It seems inconceivable that part of the Body of Christ would ever be sent to Hell.
SALVATION IS NEVER BASED ON WORKS SO HOW COULD ONE LOSE IT BY BAD WORKS? You didn't get saved by works, so how can you keep yourself saved by works? Make any sense? Verses like Ephesians 2:8,9, Titus 3:5, Romans 3:28, 4:5 and 11:6, and Galatians 2:16 all clearly teach the receiving of salvation apart from works. (Note especially Romans 4:5 “to him that does not work.”)
THE BELIEVER WILL NEVER PERISH. If this does not shout eternal security, then one must be determined to believe otherwise. John 3:16 is perhaps the most quoted and least understood verse in the Bible. Many would rather quote it this way: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes and continues to please God might not perish but have eternal life.”
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
We cannot lose our salvation, once it is obtained. Jesus tells us that no one can snatch us out of His hand; I would have to include ourselves in that "no one."
But more than that, Philippians 1:6 says, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
This places the burden of carrying through our sanctification directly on God, and it states that He will complete it.
We know God never goes back on His word and He always completes what He begins.
A Christian (one that has truly given their life to Christ) that walks into sin will find no peace or rest until they once again find it in God.
This is from 1 Cor. 3. "If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:14-15).
Isn't it just amazing we would receive rewards at all after the price He had to pay? It makes me want to cry. So, not only does God continue to cleanse us as we confess (1 John 1:9), He rewards us for the good works He has given us the privilege to walk in.
I did a little study on rewards.
Rewards From Our KING
Those who enter the kingdom will have won “stephanos crowns” at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The crowns are earned rewards and do not add to nor take away from one’s spiritual salvation. Salvation of a person’s spirit through faith in Jesus Christ can never be lost. However, crowns can be lost and the Scriptures attest to this fact.
The Crown of Life
James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
The crown of life is awarded at the Judgment Seat of Christ to those Christians who are tried with temptation and remain “faithful” because of their love for Him. They must “hold fast” to what they have.
The Incorruptible Crown
1 Cor 9:24-27 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
The incorruptible crown is awarded on the basis of winning a spiritual race that is marked out by God for each believer. It is a race in which we discipline our bodies daily in order to bring it into subjection to the Holy Spirit.
The Crown of Righteousness
2 Tim 4:7-8 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
The crown of righteousness is awarded to those who keep the faith through a “fight” until the end of their race and this crown is also for those who love His appearing.
The Crown of Rejoicing
1 Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
Phil 4:1-3 Therefore, my brethren, dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.
The crown of rejoicing is awarded to those who have other souls to present to the Lord at His coming.
The Crown of Glory
1 Pet 5:1-4 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
The crown of glory is awarded to those who feed the flock and are examples to the flock.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
According to all you who support the “Once Saved Always Saved” damnable doctrine there is no reason to live a separate and holy life after being born again.
Even though a holy and separate life is what Yahshua died that those who receive His “Grace” could live?
According to the perverted antichrist doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” all any believer can lose is their rewards!
That is a sick mentality to start with…
The view of “Once Saved Always Saved” is all that is done for the Kingdom is for the individuals benefit.
Them getting to heaven
Them getting rewards
Salvation was brought into existence so Yahweh could have a people that He could use to judge the World by and so that Yahshua could have a Bride.
Salvation is all about Yahweh and His Kingdom …
Not a “fire insurance policy” for individual who don’t want to go to Hell.
Not an award ceremony for the saved…
For all you who think on the lines of loss of reward, instead of loss of eternal life, one day you are going to be severely shocked…
Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Escape what?
Hebrews 5:9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
Who obey Him!
Who obey Him?
Hebrews 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
You “once saved always saved” believers had better start listening to the Spirit of Yahweh as you read the scriptures…
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
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posted
Michael, I like what you posted. Let me ask a question.
In Rev 3, reading about the dead church, we read that there are a "few names" that have not defiled their garments and Yeshua says they are "worthy". Then He goes on to say that those who overcome "shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT out his name from the Book of Life;"
My question is this. Can Yeshua Blot someones name out of that Book of Life?
Then I read Luke 13:22
And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there FEW who ARE Saved?"
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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GrandmaPeg
New Member
Member # 6950
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posted
I may have posted this on a previous "osas" topic many months ago. But thought it could still prove useful now. Below is the text from a brochure in our church. Take from it what you will.
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The New Testament was written in the common Greek language of the day, used by everyday people. One of the more interesting aspects of the language is the perfect-tense verb, describing an act that was brought to completion and has abiding, permanent results. The following verses, used in biblical context, emphasize security of the believer's salvation based on this perfect-tense verb.
(1) EPHESIANS 2:5, 8: “... by grace you have been SAVED.”
The verb "sozo" means “to keep safe and sound; to rescue from danger.” Believers have been saved in time past, with the abiding result that their salvation persists through the present time. Due to God’s free gift of grace, at the moment you believed in Christ, your salvation from sin and eternal death is permanent.
(2) ACTS 26:18, “... those who have been SANCTIFIED by faith in Me …”
The verb "hagiadzo" is translated as “sanctify,” with the adjective and noun being “holy” and “saint.” It means “to be set apart to God.” Believers have been cleansed of sin, separated from the world, with the abiding result that they always belong to God. You became a saint at the moment of salvation, and your position with God is permanent.
(3) 1 PETER 1:23, “You have been BORN AGAIN ... through the living and enduring word of God.”
The verb "anagennao" means “to produce again; to be born again, anew.” Believers are born again with the abiding result that they are continually new persons in Christ. At the moment of salvation, your new life is eternal because it was given by the eternal God through His eternal word. Your position as a born-again believer is permanent.
(4) JOHN 5:24, “... has PASSED out of death into life.”
The verb "metabaino" means “to change one’s dwelling; to move from one place to another.” Believers were transferred from death to life, with the abiding result that they will always have eternal life. This transition is made upon your belief in the Lord Jesus. Your eternal life is permanent.
(5) LUKE 10:20, “Rejoice that your names are RECORDED in heaven.”
The verb "grapho" means “to write; to register in a book.” Believers’ names are written in heaven with the abiding result that they are on permanent record. Believers are enrolled as citizens of heaven even while on earth. Your name is written in the Lamb’s book of life, and it will never be erased. It is permanent.
(6) ROMANS 6:7, “... he who has died is FREED from sin.”
The verb "dikaioo" means “to declare a person just or righteous; acquitted.” The sinners who died were made free with the abiding result that they stand in the position of permanent freedom from the sinful nature. Sin no longer has the legal right to force its mastery and control on a believer. Your justification, freedom from sin, is permanent.
(7) ROMANS 5:2, “... through Whom we also have OBTAINED our introduction by faith into this grace in which we STAND.”
The verb "exo" means “to possess or hold”; the verb "histemi" means “to place; make firm.” At salvation, believers obtained access to God and a firm footing through Jesus Christ to full salvation of God, with the abiding result that they will always have this access and firm footing. Your access to God, and your firm standing in His grace, are permanent.
(8) HEBREWS 10:14, “For by one offering, He has PERFECTED for all time those who are sanctified.”
The verb "teleioo" means “to make perfect; accomplish.” At salvation, believers were perfected with the abiding result that they are perfected forever. They are new creations whom God sees as holy. Christ’s sacrifice secured your complete and final salvation. Because of His sacrifice, your salvation is permanent.
(9) HEBREWS 3:14, “We have BECOME partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.”
The verb "ginomai" means “to become; to come into existence.” Believers became partakers of Christ, with the abiding result that they will always be in a permanent relationship with Him. The possession of your salvation is evidenced by your continuation of faith. Your union with Christ is permanent.
(10) JUDE 1:1, “To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and KEPT for Jesus Christ.”
The verb "tereo" means “to take care of; to guard.” Believers of Jesus Christ, from the moment of salvation, have been guarded with the abiding result that they are in a permanent state of being carefully watched. God is keeping the saints so that they might continue to be forever the possession of the Lord Jesus. Your eternal life, secured by God for Jesus Christ, is permanent.
(11) 1 JOHN 4:13, “By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has GIVEN us of His Spirit.”
The verb "didomi" means “to give, distribute, supply, or bestow.” At the moment of salvation, the Holy Spirit was given to the saints, with the abiding result that He is a permanent gift. This is proof of our fellowship with God. It is one of the clearest evidences that we are the children of God. He has lodged the image and fruit of His Spirit in our hearts. Your salvation is secure because the gift of the Spirit is permanent.
(12) 2 THESSALONIANS 2:13, “... brethren, BELOVED of the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit.”
The verb "agapao" means “to love.” It is a love of preciousness, esteem, and of prizing. Believers have been loved with an absolute love with the abiding result that it is a permanent attitude on His part. Christ is the Beloved of the Father. Because God the Father has always loved God the Son, believers are accepted in Christ, and are also beloved of God. The divine order is this: God the Father elects the sinner to salvation, God the Spirit brings him to the act of faith, and God the Son cleanses him from sin. Your place as a beloved child of God is permanent.
(13) JOHN 10:29, “My Father, who has GIVEN them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”
The verb "didomi" means “to give, distribute, supply, or bestow.” The elect were given to Christ by God, with the result that they remain eternally in His care. They were given to the Son as a trust to be managed by Him, and therefore, God will still look after them. Jesus had experienced the power of His Father upholding and strengthening Him, and there-fore puts all His sheep into His hand too. Your salvation is secure because God's power to keep you is permanent.
Posts: 6 | From: Midwest | Registered: Dec 2007
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
None of the scriptures used for oasas say what they are interpreted to say. They say that as long as one trusts, everything will be ok to that end. Trust implies faith. It is not works. But even God cannot help the one who fails to trust Him. It is a key ingredient necessary for salvation to work.
Ever met anybody who was saved who said that they didn't trust Him to save them? For example, imagine someone saying, "I prayed the sinners prayer, and I got saved. However, I don't trust God to take me all the way." Well! In fact, this would be the confession of a 'works' salvation type of individual. Somebody saying this would likely feel that their input (effort, not faith) would have something to do with the final result. But it illustrates the point. This type person would trust in himself, which we all know would be futile. For without trusting God, we cannot reach that other shore (and I suppose that that is what those people think osas is). But clearly, this person is not trusting in God, but himself. therefore we conclude that God will not alter this man's will by coercion, and therefore, he will not be saved. His will is not submitted to the Saver, and the Saver will not alter it, but give him the opportunity to repent, He will, rather!
So, you say to me, "Ahah! He wasn't saved in the first place," your finger pointing in my face. Well, if Jesus came into this person’s heart by faith, he is saved. If he dies right then, it will be absent from body, and present in heaven for this one.
So then you say, "Well then, he is saved no matter what!" I say, no! If he trusts in himself from there on out, he might not be. If he supposes that he can live like the devil, it would be wrong for him to take it for granted that he would be met with a warm welcome on the judgment day. If you don't believe this, do you want to try it? Live like the devil and tell yourself that it is ok, you are saved. But don't say that others didn't warn ya! For if it is ok, then you can get away with it.
But none of the passages that people use for oasas mean what they seem to mean to those who claim them for; once done, always done. Free will, and the ability to fail to trust God removes that possibility from what they are interpreted to mean. They only work if one trusts, and believes. It’s a participation thing.
Keep in mind, going back to the virgins and their oil lamps, that, the oil has a double meaning. It represents the Holy Spirit - that we know. but we don't take into account that it also means LIGHT! Without the oil, they had no light! So when we say "Grieve not the Holy Spirit whereby ye are sealed," do we think that when we do grieve Him, that that He sticks around and fills us to full measure? No! We shut out the light when we grieve Him. We put a bushel over the candle. We snuff out the light. We hide in the dark.
He will not quinch a smoking flax, but it also says that He will not stive with man forever. There is a point where He will not hold out His hand any longer if one resists His will. His offer is there, but it can become distant.
We get to participate. We do not initiate! We do have something to do with our salvation. We perform the repentance of believing! Literally! That means to turn around. That means to accept. That is a positive action, without which, we cannot be saved. Yet some act like salvation is something that He accomplished for us 2009 years ago, and now we have it automatically and without revocation!?!?! It is not so. You do participate in order for this to become effective, or it doesn't even happen. There is a point of decision for every man in coming to the Lord. Therefore, you participate also in order for salvation to become final, not as though this is works. It is the same participation that involved you with His grace in the first place. Therefore HE says, whoever overcomes, or makes it to the end will He give to abide with Him for eternity, because they participated to the end.
So, if one does not participate, the light goes out. It may just be a loss of reward up to a point, but if they wax cold, it is the loss of The Reward.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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becauseHElives
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Can A Christian Loose Salvation?
Can A Christian Loose Salvation? Many Mainstream fundamentalist say No!
They say its impossible. A person can no more “work” his way OUT of Salvation, they say, then he can “work” his way into Salvation. But what does the Bible say?
This doctrine of “eternal security” (commonly known as “once saved always saved”) is believed by most fundamentalist, even though a small minority of them do not. But this doctrine seems to be one of the essentials of Protestant Christianity.
They claim that all you have to do is accept Jesus and you are saved. That’s it! No matter what you do from that time on, it does not matter what you do, there is no way you can lose salvation. Easier than buying a pair of shoes or going to college, salvation is the easiest thing to obtain. Salvation then, using this kind of thinking is no longer a MATTER OF CHOICE! But a choice we do have. God has said, “…I have set before
you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:” (Deut 30:19).
We are free moral agents. If we are once saved, yet then change our minds and do not want to obey God anymore, and go back into the world, does that mean I am still saved? By my own choice I reject God, want nothing to do with him, then at the resurrection when I stand before the judgment seat of Christ, will God accept me anyways? Is that the way it works? Why does the Bible stress then righteousness, and good deeds?
Why did Jesus say, “If thou are to enter into life, KEEP THE
COMMANDMENTS” (Matthew 19:17)?
And Paul as well, said, “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision
is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God” (1 Corinthians 7:19)?
Is this doctrine of eternal security valid when put to the test in the scriptures?
We will examine that later, but let me first quote what
Wilson Ewin says about this doctrine which is believed by Millions, “…the person who places his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his blood shed at Calvary is eternally secure. He can never lose His salvation. Nor breaking God’s or man’s Laws or commandments can nullify that status” (There is Therefore Now No Commandment, emphasis added).
Mr. Ewin did not, when he made this statement take into account the scripture, “the wages of Sin is DEATH” (Romans 6:23).
And don’t these fire and brimstone preachers preach that all sinners go to hell? “Ah” they say, “Those scriptures are for the unconverted, not the Christian?”
Really! Is that what your Bible says
about the converted?
God Has Given Man a Choice
Does God force people to love him? Of course he does not! God will not force you or me to obey him.
If he wanted robots to love him he would of created them. God put into man a human spirit, with free will. God gave us the choice to love and obey, or to hate and disobey.
Yes it’s God’s will to call people. And its God’s will to save people, but it’s your will to accept his will or reject his will.
When God called Israel out of Egypt, as God said, “Out of Egypt I called my son” (Hosea 12:1). Moses went up into the mountain and God gave him the 10 Commandments to give to Israel. Moses presented the will of God to them, and to make a covenant, with Israel. A Covenant is an agreement between to parties.
Holman’s Bible Dictionary writes under “Covenant,” “A pact, treaty, alliance, or agreement between two parties of equal or of unequal authority. The covenant or testament is a central, unifying theme in Scripture, God’s covenants with individuals and the nation Israel finding final fulfillment in the new covenant in Christ Jesus. God’s covenants can be understood by humans because they are modeled on human
covenants or treaties” (emphasis added) God offered and Israel HAD TO ACCEPT IT OR REJECT IT!
Israel accepted as it says in Exodus 24:3, “And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.”
In the New Testament it’s the same thing. God calls us out of the world by his grace, for it is the “goodness [“gracious” Gk. “chrestos” Strong’s #5543-44] of God that leads us to repentance” (Rom 2:14). He presents to us his covenant, the Renewed and everlasting Covenant, the same Covenant he presented to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Israel, and we have to ACCEPT IT, OR REJECT IT!
If we accept the Covenant, we become “chosen” of God, his people.
God says that he would write the law in our hearts. In Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8 God says, “I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people” (v.33).
How is that done? By the Holy Spirit of God. Romans 8:4 says, “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit…But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” (vv.4, 9). When do we receive the Holy Spirit? At Baptism, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:38).
At baptism, when we are washed of our sins, and bury the old man, and live in newness of life, we, when the minister lay’s on hands and we receive the Holy Spirit, enter and
accept the Covenant that God offers us. We say, like what Israel said, “All that the lord has said we will do.”
The New Covenant when we accept it, is sprinkled with the blood of Jesus Christ. In the Old Testament, Moses said in Exodus 24, “Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.” (v.8). Jesus says the same thing in the gospels, but this time it was his blood that was shed for the remission of sins.
Matthew 26, “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (v.28).
Now, if we willfully by our own choice accept the covenant and are saved by the grace of God when he calls us and presents to us his covenant.
Can we willfully fall from grace and lose Salvation?
Lose Salvation through Willful Sin
The writer of the book of Hebrews said, “For if we sin willfully, after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries”(Hebrews 10:26).
Now first of all, this does not mean people who are trying to overcome and struggle with sins and temptations. That is an overcoming sinner. And those that do sin, because they cannot overcome, 1 John says, “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we
have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin…If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1:7, 9). John was speaking of himself and fellow Christians.
He included himself in those statements saying “us” and “we.”
Now the context in Hebrews is “if we sin willfully.” Meaning, not overcoming, but willfully going back into the world and partaking in the world, going back to the old life, willfully in UNBELIEF! Without repentance! If the sinner continues in this path, and does not repent, then when Christ comes, after the sinner dies, (or is still alive when he comes), and is resurrected, then he is subject to the lake of Fire!
The Apostle Paul clearly told the church of God that sins need to be repented of. 2 Corinthians 12:20-21 says, “For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
“And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.” Sin must be repented of. But if the person does not have belief anymore will he repent? Indeed he will not, but all hope is not lost. God promises the sinner that he will saved the sinner. God promised he would not forsake us, nor leave us, the only way to lose it, is, if the sinner forsakes God.
Yes the Bible says that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, but that is God’s will, the Christian must be willing to subject themselves to God’s will as well. IT’S A COVENANT RELATIONSHIP! God will help, but the Bible warns, “Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near” (Isaiah 55:6).
This shows that there will be a time when God will not be found-a time when there will be no opportunity to repent. How does that happen? By the hardening of the heart of the Christian. Notice what Jeremiah wrote, “Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. “And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. “And I will be found of you, saith the LORD:” (29:12-14).
When we seek God with an open and repentant heart, he will be found. But if we do not, and reject, and do not believe in our hearts anymore, God will not be found because our hearts are not seeking him!
We must remember God searches the hearts of men. “I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts:” (Rev 2:23). When the heart is hard, and there is no more room to repent, God judges. Like Saul in the book of Samuel. Because his heart was hardened after he received the Holy Spirit, God spoke no more to him, and took the Kingdom of Israel away from him, and gave it to a man after his own heart, David. God was not
found when Saul looked for him. “…Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not,” (1 Samuel 28:6). He did not answer because Saul’s heart was hardened. He was just looking for a way out of his troubles; he had no intention of repenting.
Now fundamentalists try to explain the passage above in Hebrews, which Paul was not speaking of truly converted Christians. But, after receiving the knowledge of the truth, they still do not accept the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But the context to whom Paul was speaking is very clear. The “we” in chapter 10 verse 26 includes both the writer and the readers of the epistle.
Notice the preceding verses: “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) “And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: “ Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.”(Heb 10:22-25).
The writer clearly does not have unconverted people in view! He is speaking to people who have already experienced baptism and spiritual cleansing. He speaking to the people of faith to hold on to the faith tenaciously that was once delivered. To God’s New Testament Church!
Notice the author’s use of “us” and related terms: “Let Us draw near…Let us hold fast…let us consider one another…Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves [Sabbath assembly]. Then after all this he says, “For if we [God’s Church] sin willfully…there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” Can there be any doubt that the writer is speaking to truly converted Christians? None whatsoever! The context will allow for no other
conclusion.
Now some however say, that the writer said, “if” we sin willfully. They reason that it’s a mere hypothesis, and that it would never really happen to the Christian. Nonsense!
What’s the point of saying it, if it was a
mere hypothesis?
There are more scriptures that show a Christian can lose salvation.
“He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
“Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:28, 29)
. Notice it’s the “sanctified” person he is speaking to. The one set apart forgiven. The one in the COVENANT with God, with the Holy Spirit. Clearly a member of God’s church.
To “trodden down” the Son of God means “that people tread on what they despise and contemn.” (Barnes Notes). God gives us a choice, to love or hate him. These are people who willfully turn from God in unbelief and hate God, these are the ones subject to death for all eternity in the lake of fire unless they repent.
In Hebrews 3 we see the author using the experience of Israel in the Exodus and using it as an example of our pilgrimage here are earth. The “rest” is likened unto the rest we will have with Jesus in the Kingdom of God. The Promise land is a type of the Kingdom, our inheritance. The wilderness is a type of this life in the wilderness of this world.
Notice what he says, “Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day
of temptation in the wilderness: “When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. “Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. “So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. “But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
“For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; “While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. “For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. “But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? “And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
“So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief” (Hebrews 3:8-19).
Their choice to reject God, and sin in his sight, by the hardening of their hearts through sin caused them not to inherit the Promise land. They departed from God. The author warned that what happen to them can happen to us if we do the same thing they did during the time of Moses. The time of the Exodus are “ensamples: and they are written
for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.” (1 Corinthians 10:11).
Hebrews 6 shows again willing apostasy from the faith and back into the world, rejecting God, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, “And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, “If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. “For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: “But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.” (Hebrews 6:4-8).
The apostle Paul is saying here that those who have the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in
them, “if they fall away,” they must “repent” and “renew” them again. This does not mean that they should go through the baptismal waters again, and receive the Holy Spirit.
No, they are already in the Covenant with God. Like Israel of Old, God sent prophets to them to repent, and return to him. God was not going to write the 10 Commandments on stone once again. What it means is for “ a renewing of the exercise of the grace of repentance and to be renewed ‘again’’’ (John Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible). To Go Back into the grace that God has giving you, the imputing of the righteousness that God gave you through his Holy Spirit.
Another example given by The Apostle Paul is in Romans. He was speaking of the Olive Tree, as a symbol of Israel. He spoke of the branches being “cut off” and warned the church that the same can happen to believers if they go into “unbelief,” “Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear:
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
“Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:20-23).
We must continue in the “goodness” of God. Continue in the law of God, which is righteousness. God’s law is Faith, and breaking it willingly shows that you do not have faith, your unbelief will cause you to lose salvation.
Again, Jesus uses the example of the vine in the Gospel of John. Jesus said, “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. “Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
“Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned” (John 15:1-6).
The Christian must abide in Jesus Christ. “Christ in You.” We must have faith in Jesus Christ with the “Righteousness” he “imputed” to us by the Holy Spirit. That first Commandment in God’s righteousness is, “I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” (Exodus 20:2-3).
What is God saying here?
He is basically saying to have faith, believe in your Savior Yahweh. And Jesus Christ is the YAHWEH of the OLD TESTAMENT! Notice other scriptures that is tied with the first commandment. “Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.” (Hosea 13;4).
God himself quotes the first commandment and says he is the Saviour. The first commandment basically says to believe on your saviour and not ON ANY OTHER GOD’S!
In Deuteronomy 32, God shows that the first two commandments are commandments of faith! In this chapter he speaks of Israel going into idolatry, and calls them “children in whom is no faith” (v.20). The first two commandments are commandments of faith, in which which we must have faith in our saviour Jesus Christ.
If we do not, and break these two commands willingly going back into the world, we are then not “abiding” in Jesus Christ our saviour, and therefore if we do not repent, Jesus says we are cast into the “fire” and are “burned.” Why? Because we did not produce “fruits.” These fruits are the fruits of “righteousness” (see Philippians 1:11). And what is righteousness? “all thy commandments are righteousness” (Psalm 119:172).
In the book of Revelation, the church of Ephesus was on the verge of doing just that, they have “left thy first love” (Rev 2:4), and Jesus told them to “repent, and do the first works;” (v.5)
The Love of God is to keep his commandments, 1 John 5:3. They were breaking the first Commandment in the Law, to love God with all your heart. Jesus told them to do the “first works,” which was to keep that first commandment in the law of God.
The book of James shows the same theme throughout the Bible, that the Christian must stay in the faith or, without repentance suffer the death penalty, for the “wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).
He writes, “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
“Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins” (James 5:19-20). The repentance of the sinner saved him from suffering the death of Gahenna fire! Repentance is needed, of coming back into the faith and obedience of God, with your whole heart and mind, and being, God through his grace will forgive and cleanse you through the blood of Jesus Christ.
Now, one last scripture out of the letter of Peter that makes very clear, what happens to the believers if he goes back into the world and does not repent of his sins. Peter writes, “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. “For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. “But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire” (2 Peter 2:20-22)
This scripture speaks volumes! Peter says, after escaping the pollutions of this world, meaning after God has saved you from your sins, and you become “entangled” therein once again, meaning, “the pollutions of the world, in worldly lusts, which are as gins, pits and snares:” (Gill’s). Again, not an overcoming sinner, but
going right back into the pit, into which God saved you out of without repentance!
Now we are “escaped” “through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” Peter says. The word “Knowledge” in the Greek is “epignosis” and it means, “From G1921; recognition, that is, (by implication) full discernment, acknowledgement: - (ac-) knowledge (-ing, -ment).” (Strong’s # 1922).
This word comes from the Strong’s 1921 number word, “epiginosko” which means, “From G1909 and G1097; to know upon some mark, that is, recognise; by implication to become fully acquainted with, to acknowledge: - (ac-, have, take) know (-ledge, well), perceive.” (Strong’s # 1921). The Strong’s number 1097 “ginosko” “to know” is used, in 1 John 2:3 that tells us how we know, acknowledge, and recognize God, “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” To Know Jesus
Christ is to keep his Commandments. This is the faith that we must have. Keeping the Commandments of God is showing and demonstrating our faith in God. As James says,
“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2;18-20).
The devils believes in God BUT TREMBLES because he does not obey, so his FAITH IS DEAD! Keeping the law of God shows your faith is alive and you believe in God by obeying what he says, anything less is a dead faith!
So the apostle Peter is saying in that scripture that we escaped out of the world through the knowledge of God, by obeying him, because he gave us the Holy Spirit, see Romans 8:4, then “entangle” ourselves once again, and “overcome” by them meaning “conquered” (Good News Bible), by sin, the “latter end is worse
with them than the beginning.” Or, “their last condition is worse than their former one” (International Standard Version). The first condition was subject to the wrath of God, being under the law, but God was willing to give them grace, just like the Christian now.
But those who have received the grace, and have rejected it, going back into the world and sinning in their old state, the latter end is worse, because they will be burnt up, and there is NO MORE RESURRECTION! THEIR CHANCE IS OVER!
Notice what Peter says in the next verse, “”For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.”
Now “all thy commandments are righteousness” (Psalm 119:172). And the “the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:4). So it was better not to receive the way of God, his law, then to have known it, and then turn back to sin, for “sin is the transgression of the law.” (1 John 3:4). This is what Peter is saying when he said, that they have “turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” It is when we receive the Holy Spirit, that God
“imputes” to us HIS righteousness, the faith in our Saviour Jesus Christ. We turn from that, we have no faith.
This Holy Commandment is the first commandment in the Law of God to believe on your Saviour, Yahweh, who is Jesus Christ! Welsley writes, “The commandment - The whole law of God, once not only delivered to their ears, but written in their hearts.” (Explanatory Notes on Whole Bible).
Clarkes Commentary says, “The whole religion of Christ is contained in this one commandment, ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy mind, and with all thy strength; [Deuteronomy 6:5] and thy neighbor as thyself. [Leviticus 19:18]’ He who obeys this great commandment, and this by the grace of Christ is possible to every man, is saved from sinning either against his God or
against his neighbor. Nothing less than this does the religion of Christ require.”
Thayers Definition of Commandment writes which Commandment it actually is:
“1) an order, command, charge, precept, injunction
1a) that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office
2) a commandment
2a) a prescribed rule in accordance with which a thing is done
2a1) a precept relating to lineage, of the Mosaic precept concerning the priesthood
2a2) ethically used of the commandments in the Mosaic law or Jewish tradition” (emphasis added).
The Apostle Peter Makes clear how one can lose one’s salvation, by as Jesus said, by leaving, “thy first love.” (Revelation 2:4). The Love of God, which is keeping his Commandments. The Love of God must be in us, and if we “leave” that first love, Jesus says, “Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of
his place, except thou repent.” (Rev 2:5). Jesus tells us to repent and do the first works, the works of God, that work that is working in us, by the Holy Spirit, of faith in our Saviour by keeping the Commandments of God.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
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posted
Okay Daniel now are you going to answer my questions?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Kindgo,
I am a bit surprised that you answered my question so definitively. I have to admit that I did not expect that. Though I do not agree with you, I do not wish to begin a huge debate over this issue. You answered my question and that is all I was really looking for.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Kindgo
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posted
quote:
Do you believe that we can ignore these warnings and still expect to be saved in the day of the Lord?
Yes
“Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.”
John 3:7
Daniel,
Have you ever known anyone who was physically born twice?
Have you ever known someone who was spiritually born twice?
Nowhere in the Bible will you find a passage that describes anyone being saved twice.
Once you come into the family, you’re in the family.
Now there were times when I disappointed my parents. There were times when my father had to chastise me, but I am a Lancaster. I will be a Lancaster for all eternity. It’s the same way with your spiritual life. Once a born again Christian, always and foeever a born again Christian.
When you are born into the family of God, your name is written in the Lamb’s book of life. It is fixed. It is done.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi again Kindgo,
I notice that you neither confirm nor deny that the scriptures do speak of "falling away" or "departing from the faith". It appears that perhaps you just dont believe that it is a possibility for you yourself.
Your assurance I see comes from a confidence in Jesus as the "intercessor to God". Jesus( as our intercessor) did not come without bringing warnings to us all. (Ignorance aside) Do you believe that we can ignore these warnings and still expect to be saved in the day of the Lord?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Carol Swenson
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becauseHElives
quote:
(And Carol where do you stand , are you for , against or in the middle)
Christ bought us for a price, His own precious blood. We are made new creations, turned from slaves of sin to slaves of righteousness. In short, salvation means He owns us. The sealing of the Holy Spirit is proof of His ownership. So no, we can't "lose our salvation".
Kindgo ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
The concept of sealing includes the ideas of ownership, authority, responsibility, and, above all, security. Sealing assures us of the security of God’s promises to us, especially our salvation. We can be certain (a) that He possesses us, (b) that we have a secure salvation sealed by and with the Spirit, and (c) that He purposes to keep us to the day of our full redemption.
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005531
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Kindgo
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Member # 2
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posted
Daniel, ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
The living gift of eternal life that you get from God , (right here, right now in this life), for believing in Jesus Christ through faith....is the Holy Spirit. That is what makes us saved...that is specifically 'how' HE saves us. Titus 3:5
HE promises us that His Holy Spirit (our salvation) will never leave our bodies.
Hebrews 7:25
Therefore he is able to save completely[ 7:25 Or forever] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them
John 14:16-17
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever–
John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit,
Romans 11:29
for God's gifts are irrevocable
Romans 6:23
….. the gift of God is eternal life
John 14:27
I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
Esp 2:8-9: Ye are saved by grace alone and not of your works. it is a gift of God lest any man should boost of his works.
if we had to work to keep our salvation it wouldn't be a gift like this verse tells us it is. instead it would be a wager
couple more:
Phillipians 1:6
...being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ...
Romans 8:39
...not height nor depth nor any other created thing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 10:27-30
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one."
"And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world . . . Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." - 1 John 5:3-5
"He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life . . ." - Revelation 3:5
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
WildB , I never jest or be silly concerning the eternal souls of men and women...
and as long as Yahweh gives me breath, I will expose the damnable teachings of "Once Saved Always Saved"...
There is "Security For The Believer"....
the person who is abiding in Yahshua....
there is no Surety of Salvation for the unrepentant backslider ... the backslider only has the hope of forgiveness if he repents before his last breath...
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
There is that word if again...
I pray more people pay attention to that little word, it is all through the scriptures.
Man! where did that come from. I said your Twisting of scripture is sillyness.
And any that can RIGHTFULLY divided the word knows that Once Sealed Always Sealed untill the day of redemtion.
Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Again~ Stop your sillyness.
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
WildB , I never jest or be silly concerning the eternal souls of men and women...
and as long as Yahweh gives me breath, I will expose the damnable teachings of "Once Saved Always Saved"...
There is "Security For The Believer"....
the person who is abiding in Yahshua....
there is no Surety of Salvation for the unrepentant backslider ... the backslider only has the hope of forgiveness if he repents before his last breath...
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
There is that word if again...
I pray more people pay attention to that little word, it is all through the scriptures.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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oneinchrist
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posted
So Kingdo, please be honest with me. You do not believe that it is possible for a believer to fall away or to depart from the faith even with all the biblical references to such possibilities?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Kindgo
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posted
1 Peter 1:2-4
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
From the foundation of the world, God foreknew His children and began to sanctify them through the precious blood of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
By the stripes of our Lord, we are given the gift of eternal life with all the joy and peace it could possibly present.
By His infinite love and mercy, we are promised an inheritance that will never be lost or destroyed.
For those who believe , we have been set apart by this remarkable hope of everlasting life with Christ.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
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posted
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=Rom&chapter=8&verse=35&Comm=Comm%2Fdavid_guzik%2Fsg%2FRom_8.html%230%26*David+Guzik%26&Select.x=19&Select.y=1
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
3. (33-39) The security of the believer in God’s love.
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written: “For Your sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
a. Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? We are secure from every charge against us. If we are declared “not guilty” by the highest Judge, who can bring an additional charge?
b. Who is he who condemns? We are secure from all condemnation. If Jesus Himself is our advocate, promoting our benefit, then who can condemn us?
c. In fact, none of the sufferings of this present time can separate us from the love of God. No matter what the circumstance, we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
i. Newell on loved us: “It is this past tense gospel the devil hates . . . Let a preacher be continually saying, ‘God loves you, Christ loves you,’ and he and his congregation will by and by be losing sight of both their sinnerhood and of the substitutionary atonement of the cross, where the love of God and of Christ was once for all and supremely set forth.”
ii. Earle on nakedness: “This term today suggests indecency on parade. Then it meant a lack of clothes simply because one had no ways or means of getting any.”
iii. Sword: This word implies execution. It is the only item on the list that Paul had not yet personally experienced in the course of living for Jesus and preaching the gospel (1 Corinthians 4:11 and 15:30).
d. More than conquerors: How is the Christian more than a conqueror?
He overcomes with a greater power, the power of Jesus
He overcomes with a greater motive, the glory of Jesus
He overcomes with a greater victory, losing nothing even in the battle
He overcomes with a greater love, conquering enemies with love and converting persecutors with patience
e. Nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord: Nothing which appears to be good or nothing which appears to be evil can separate us from the love of God.
i. Spurgeon speaks of the confidence great men and women of God had in God’s love in ages past: “They did not speak of Christ’s love as though it were a myth to be respected, a tradition to be reverenced; they viewed it as a blessed reality, and they cast their whole confidence upon it, being persuaded that it would bear them up as upon eagles’ wings, and carry them all their days; resting assured that it would be to them a foundation of rock, against which the waves might beat, and the winds blow, but their soul’s habitation would stand securely if founded upon it.”
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Yes, what a shame Jesus was so vague...
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:28)
"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." (Mat 11:12)
|I've heard it preached again and again that the Christian lays hold of the Kingdom by taking it by force. It is fingernails on the chalkboard, or a fork pulled between the teeth to hear this! (Shudder!) The keyword one is looking for here in order to determine the intent is the word violent. Violence is not an attribute of the King or the Kingdom, or the saint who would lay hold. The passage relates to those who scatter the saints. It relates to the communists and dictators who would crush the faith, were it possible. It is these to whom the verse about plucking them out of His hand refers.
No man may pluck them out of His hand, no communist, no butcher, but they can bring pressure to bear, and the free will, in the absence of faith, can be problematic for the tempted, or the persecuted. (Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.)
|Herein is the importance of the pep talk in scripture on 'overcoming'. For overcoming faith is what is needed by the believer, wherein according to the theory of oasas, overcoming faith is not necessary. For one believes that salvation is something accomplished 2000 years ago, and once one believes, they have 'it'. But salvation is not a thing. Salvation is in a relationship, without which, one will not even know the resurrection. Therefore if one will not 'abide' in Him (relationship), there may indeed be a cost.
|But! Let's let it be said that I do believe in oasas! ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) He will not change! His offer stands. Herein however, is the importance of the verses referring to enduring to the end. We are to 'put our hand to the plow', and to 'finish the race'. We are to endure to the end, not as though we are meriting something, but rather - not forfeiting. For the believer will be tried. And in coming days, it will be more and more so. But our God will not retract salvation. Yet the believer can. (Herein is the verse wherein John the Baptist said that He will baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire, fire representing tribulation and persecution.)
|Man has a free will. It does not go away as long as he lives in the body. Neither will God overrule it. The beauty of our relationship with Him is, He will not overpower the believer and dominate them with His will. This is what relationship with Him is about, and it stands in stark contrast to other faiths, such as the Muslim faith. (Although there are so called Christians who would take it upon themselves to dominate you, claiming to do so in His name. This is of the evil one, so aviod any such pressure. Unfortunately, because God is so kind, countless numbers take advantage by not submitting to Him. But who does He want? He wants those who will. Blessed are they I tell you! Blessed are they.)
|He who hath ears to hear, let him. In the coming years this is going to become more and more important. You will remember that you read this.
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quote:
If we sin after salvation, we lose our fellowship with God for a time, but not our relationship.
|A plant without water dies. If one persist in sin, and is overcome, they can die. One can embrace sin until they no longer can reach out to Him for His provision. Salvation is not guaranteed to someone who turns their back, but always to one who prays, "Be merciful to me, a sinner."
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
"If you are ashamed 'when He shall appear at His coming', are you sure that you will still have made the grade?" endquote:
That statement is the epitome of works salvation. You'll never make the grade Michael...NEVER. You're not good enough (Romans 3:23).
We are saved by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus (Ephesians 2:8-9) Michael, not by whether you think you 'made the grade'.
|You do not make the grade by 'trying to do' His part. You do have a role in participating with what He is doing. It is called believe. Belief, if it is true faith, involves submission by allowing His will to overrule their own. Together these effect the manifestation of His will in one's life to the good of the believer. (Thy will be done, on earth, as in Heaven.) By this manner, you 'do' make the grade, or you fail!!! Belief is not works. Enduring to the end, or not being ashamed at His coming is not works. It is faith. So let it be said, "Show me your faith by your works."
|Need it be said again, that the net result of faith (belief), is the fruit of salvation, which means also, the victory. This encompases overcoming sin as a way of daily life (mind you, we are a troublesome lot, if you get worried about this, who find instinctive ways to commit sins, however we are talking about the failed 'condition' of sin here). I do not mean that we are denying that we are in sin. Claiming to be seen without sin while we are still in sin is perhaps a well intended interpretation of the scriptures, but it is not the reality that He offers us.
|Sin is separation. Separation is a deadly dangerous place for the 'believer' to be. Yet it is the reality of the Christian, across the board, and everyone deals with it cleverly, but cleverly to their disadvantage. Separation is dangerous. It is like a Siberian Winter without an overcoat. It is like being in the water without a boat, when you are miles from shore. Not to put anyone under condemnation here: It is just that the bottom line is that sin separates. Whoever is comfortable with any separation from Him is a brave soul indeed, however - foolish! And His love provides. One is not to be without the warmth of His provision. Moreover, it is not only abundant, it is tangible. It is His gift. It is His love. It is in the 'having', of what you cannot 'do'.
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
creation is part of precept upon precept ...
Well it certainly couldnt be line upon line being invisible.
Stop your sillyness,
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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posted
creation is part of precept upon precept ...
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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WildB
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posted
"
line upon line, precept on precept is the only way to understand Yahweh's heart.... "
Not so. Creation is another way.
Rom.1
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
And your use of Heb.2 half of verse 3 is very deceptive. Lets shed a little more light by adding verse 2.
[2] For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
[3] How shall we escape,
Now read~
Heb.4
[1] Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[2] For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[3] For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[4] For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
[5] And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
[6] Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7] Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8] For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9] There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
[10] For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
and
1Thes.5
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
Michael , Eden , Keith , oneinchrist , yahsway let us pray for those that can not see the whole Truth...
line upon line, precept on precept is the only way to understand Yahweh's heart....
(And Carol where do you stand , are you for , against or in the middle)
How Shall We Escape? Escape WHAT?
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation? (Hebrews 2:3)
This question floods the mind with other important questions. Who is being referred to by the pronoun we? How shall we escape what? What is in view in the expression so great salvation? What does it mean to neglect this great salvation?
The so great salvation that is proclaimed is the person and work of Jesus Christ. The great salvation is about the great Savior (Lk. 2:30; Jn. 4:22, 42; 14:6; Acts 4:12). Salvation is synonymous with the Savior. The context is speaking of the preaching of Jesus who is greater than the prophets and the angels who spoke with authority before His incarnation. God is speaking to us in His Son. Because He is the greater witness of the Father we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard (Heb. 2:11). Since the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? (vv. 2-3a). Moreover, after the Lord spoke it was confirmed by those who heard it, and by God bearing witnesses with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will (v. 4).
Jesus Christ revealed God’s great plan of salvation. In Christ we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished upon us (Eph. 1:7-8; cf. 2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 3:21-26; 5:6-8; 10:9-10; Eph. 2:8-9).
The gospel of your salvation is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes (Acts 3:26; 16:31; Rom. 1:16). The Excellency in this so great salvation is in the person who saves the lost sinner. Jesus, the Son of God, is the salvation of Yahweh.
What is it from which we are saved? It is the wrath of God that every sinner deserves. The most frightful conception comes infinitely short of the most dreadful reality, observes A. W. Pink.
What are the benefits of so great salvation? It is the blessed fact of a full, free, and everlasting forgiveness of our sins, a perfect purity, and perfect relationship forever in the eternal presence of the LORD God (1 John 1:9).
How were these blessings obtained for us? It was through the vicarious suffering of our substitution sacrifice on the cross at Calvary. The only begotten Son of God was also the Lamb of God that takes away our sins (John 1:29). This so great salvation is free to all who will receive the Savior, and His finished work of salvation by faith (John 1:12-13; 3:16, 36).
How can a person neglect so great salvation that God has provided in His grace and mercy? The writer of Hebrews is stressing the personal responsibility to hear and respond to the word of salvation (Matt. 10:32-33). The sinner must accept this great message of salvation. It deserves our full acceptance that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners (1 Tim. 1:15). To neglect the great salvation is nothing short of despising God Himself. The good news of Jesus Christ is a divine mandate, and to disregard it is to put the sinner in imminent danger of eternal suffering. God pleads for every person to repent of their sins and unbelief, and trust in Christ as their Savior today. To fail to do so will only lead to eternal punishment (John 3:18; 1 Peter 4:17-18; 2 Thess. 1:8-9; Heb. 10:26-31).
Why would anyone want to make light of this wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ? To neglect is to remain inattentive and unbelieving? Neglecting will render escape impossible. What do you have to do to be lost? Nothing. Absolutely nothing!
How then shall we escape eternal damnation? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved (Acts 16:31).
The greatness of this great salvation is in the offer of the LORD God who comes to us. The Lord Jesus preached, the Father bore witness, and the Holy Spirit came as the power of God to do His work in us. How great a salvation!
In one sense they had been saved (from the penalty of sin), in another sense they were still being saved (from the power of sin), in still another sense they were yet to be saved (from the presence of sin). But God ever deals with His people as accountable creatures. As moral beings . . . He addresses their responsibility, writes Pink (An Exposition of Hebrews, p. 89). And so it is with us today.
Selah!
I just fell asleep at the key board, definitely time to sleep,,,,,
love you all
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. (NKJV)
Let us first consider the subject of these verses. The writer described certain people with four phrases: (1) once enlightened, (2) tasted the heavenly gift, (3) partakers of the Holy Spirit, and (4) tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. The writer was saying that it is impossible for such people, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance. There are four main interpretations of this passage.
1. One interpretation states that this passage means Christians can lose their salvation. According to this interpretation, the four phrases describe believers. Those who are in Christ are “enlightened”; that is, Christ has opened their eyes, making them children of light (Ephesians 1:18; 3:9; 5:8). This salvation allows them to “taste the heavenly gift”; that is, they have come to know Christ, the one who came from heaven, so they experience salvation and the gifts that the Spirit gives. Through this taste, Christians become “partakers of the Holy Spirit”; that is, these people have truly been brought into union with Christ and they have been given the gifts (discussed in 2:4). This Holy Spirit also allows them to taste “the good word of God and the powers of the age to come”; that is, they have seen Christ work supernaturally in their lives, changing them from an old creation to a new. While we can agree that the phrases may describe believers, we cannot accept this interpretation that Christians can lose their salvation. This idea is dismissed by other portions of Scripture (for example, see John 10:27-29; Romans 8:38-39).
2. Some interpret this passage as hypothetical: “if it were possible.” This interpretation, however, is unnatural and does not fit into the greater context of 6:7-8. If this passage were only hypothetical, then the warning would be unnecessary. Because the warning is urgent and real, we dismiss this interpretation.
3. Another interpretation is that the writer may have intended to illustrate someone who seemed to be a Christian but really never was a true follower of Christ. All of the descriptive phrases could describe someone who is not really in the faith. That person could be “enlightened,” for the word was used by the early church to describe Christians who had been baptized and had professed Christ. The person could have “tasted the heavenly gift,” if this phrase refers to the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper. The person could have been a “partaker of the Holy Spirit,” if that phrase means that they fellowshipped alongside true believers and witnessed the Spirit’s work. Nonbelievers (even Judas Iscariot) saw the Holy Spirit work, heard the “good word of God,” and saw the “powers of the age to come.” Yet Judas was not a true disciple of Christ. This interpretation is acceptable when considered in the greater context . Hebrews 3:16-19 reviews how each Jew living in the wilderness had seen God’s great power, had eaten manna, had accompanied God, and had looked like God’s people, yet they never entered the Promised Land. The writer did not want the Christians to fall into the same category and experience the same fate.
4. Another reasonable interpretation arises by linking this portion of Scripture with 10:25-31 (another severe warning). The writer of Hebrews was warning against a specific kind of apostasy: forsaking Jesus as the perfect sacrifice for sins and returning to animal sacrifices as a means of atoning for sins. Thus, the severe warning is for those Jewish Christians who had originally accepted Christ’s redemption through his shed blood and then reverted to offering up the blood of bulls and goats as a means of cleansing their sins.
In the first century, a pagan who investigated Christianity and then went back to paganism would make a clean break with the church. But for Jewish Christians who decided to return to Judaism, the break was less obvious. Their lifestyle remained relatively unchanged. But by deliberately turning away from Christ, they were cutting themselves off from God’s forgiveness. Those who truly believe are glorious saints; those who reject Christ are unbelievers, no matter how well they behave —thus, this warning not to “fall away” (2:1; 3:12).
It is impossible for people who have professed to be Christians and have experienced all of the beautiful gifts described in these verses, then have turned away from Christ to turn around and repent again since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. It is impossible because these people show contempt for Christ through their deliberate actions. It would be like personally crucifying Christ again. Many have argued whether someone who turns away from Christ can be restored to Christ. Some point to this passage to prove that a backslider cannot be restored. But “backsliders” are not the subject here. This passage refers to people who walk with Christ for a while and then deliberately turn around and walk the other direction, rejecting Christ. Hebrews 10:26 says, “For if we willfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” (NRSV). These people can never be restored because they will not want to be restored. They have chosen to harden their hearts against Christ. It is not impossible for God to forgive them; rather, it is impossible for them to be forgiven because they won’t repent of their sins.
In the final analysis, having a debate about the meaning of these verses should not be a priority for churches today. What matters most is the warning against apostasy, and the warning must be taken seriously. The passage describes people in our churches who act like and seem to be Christians, but who have not truly believed . When those assumed to be believers turn away, the debate may take place afterward, “Were they originally believers or not?” But people reading these words must heed the warning, not just debate the issue.
To the Hebrew Christians, these verses revealed the danger of returning to Judaism and thus committing apostasy. Some apply this verse today to superficial believers who renounce their Christianity, or to unbelievers who come close to salvation and then turn away. Either way, those who reject Christ will not be saved . Christ died once for all who believe. He will not be crucified again. Apart from his cross, there is no other possible way of salvation.
(Life Application Bible Commentary: Hebrews)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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WildB
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posted
Being SEALED untill the day of REDEMPTION is not a doctrine of demons.
Somebody needs to start RIGHTLY dividing the Word and stop trying to teach its ok to handle snakes or drink poision during this Age of Grace.
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That is all.....
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yahsway
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What is Apostasy? It is described as a "falling away from the faith" or the determined, willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian believer (Heb 10:26-29, John 15:22) This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance.
We read in 2 Thess 2:3 that the day of Christ will not come unless the Apostacy comes first.
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to decieving spirits and doctrines of demons.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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yahsway
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posted
The context of Hebrews chapter 6 is about those who renounce Christ.
verse 6 "denotes a a complete disowning of Christ, a deliberate and decisive abandonment of the Christian faith."
But one must continue to read the rest of the chapter.
verse 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, recieving blessing from God;
verse 8 BUT if it bears thorns and briers, IT IS REJECTED and near to being cursed, whose END is to be Burned.
This illustration depicts the condemnation of those who turn away from Jesus Christ.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Keifer
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Member # 643
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
keifer. you can not be saved twice....no argument
Glad you agree...
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
but that does not make "Once Saved Always Saved" true...
It has to. Think about it: If you can't be saved twice, then all those who lose their salvation are eternally damned, which contradicts the Lord not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9).
The reason many believe salvation can be lost is due to misunderstanding a verse, taking it out of context or not rightly dividing the Word. For example, the Scripture you quoted, (Hebrews 6:4-6), proves once saved always saved, but everyone reads it wrong and misunderstands it. I'll explain:
These folks are saved and indwealt by the Holy Spirit (v.4). If they were to "fall away" and get saved again, or as the text says "renew them again", that would be like crucifying Christ a second time, and how shameful that would be to Him.
Saved and lost people both sin (1 John 1:8), but Jesus doesn't have to die every time a person sins! Why? Because:
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Hebrews 10:10)
I'm going to leave this topic now. I pray you guys really understand what I've offered. It breaks my heart that you wouldn't, because how sad it must be for you if you're saved and are going through life believing you might so something to lose your salvation, when people who have Jesus are supposed to have a peace that passes all understanding (Philippians 4:7).
God bless you...
Posts: 3241 | From: Missouri USA | Registered: Nov 2002
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
For those who believe salvation can be lost: Please provide chapter and verse in the Bible of anyone who was saved more than once.
No kidding! Where do they get it from? I heard Hank WhoEgraph (mind you, i like much of his teaching but I can't spell his name) make that point about getting saved more than once, once! I couldn't believe that 'ol Hank made that arguement. He's pretty sharp otherwise. Really! You will not find out that you blew it until the judgment (one of them). FeAr Him who hath power after that He hate killed, to throw into hell. "O". There is a lot of scripture to ponder, which I assure you will come to mind on that day, should one not get it now.
For example: The parable of the virgins is about some virgins who did not have any oil when they needed oil. First) The fact that the parable uses virgins for metaphor is because they represent those who are clean. In other words, they represent the cleansed believers. They represent the 'saved'. The problem with them is that they ran out of oil, which we already stated. The fact is that they ran out at a critical time. The groom was coming. Nope! He was there, and they were out of oil. What of it? Oil represents the Holy Spirit. They ran low. They ran low because they were playing around in the world while they were waiting on Him to come. And take note; it says that they had oil, only not enough. And what happened when He came? They got locked out: That is, eternally (which is what is implied).
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
keifer. you can not be saved twice....no argument
but that does not make "Once Saved Always Saved" true...
Hebrews 6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Keifer
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posted
For those who believe salvation can be lost: Please provide chapter and verse in the Bible of anyone who was saved more than once.
Posts: 3241 | From: Missouri USA | Registered: Nov 2002
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yahsway
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posted
Just this week a man from Respitory therapy visited my husband who is Lab director at our hospital here.
On the wall of my hubbys office is a picture i gave him with this verse from 1Peter 1:24-
"All flesh is as grass. and all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls away, But the word of the Lord endures forever."
The guy from Respitory therapy looked at it and told my husband " I used to believe in that stuff, but i dont anymore. I was even a Sunday school teacher for many years in the Methodist church."
Then he went on to expound that there are all these "different religons" and no one really knows "the truth" and he basically said he is not a believer in Yeshua anymore.
My question is this. Since this guy did claim to once be a believer in Yeshua, teaching others also from the Holy Scriptures for years and now has turned away from the faith, does he qualify for salvation because he was once enlightened if you will to whom Yeshua was or should I say Is?
My footnote in my bible says of such referring to Hebrews 6:4-6-
"The language of vv4 and 5 clearly describes those who have experienced the saving grace of God, and the language of v6 denotes a complete disowning of Christ, a deliberate and decisive abandonment of the Christian faith. The people described are not backdlidders but Apostates. They have not merely fallen into sin but have denounced Christ. They have become as those who crucified Jesus."
I do not believe in the OSAS doctrine. For there are too many scriptures for me that refutes it. For one can "draw back" as Hebrews 10:38 proclaims.
I did meet a man years ago who became a believer in Yeshua but continued to live in sin by his actions. I wont go into it here but just to say that he was confronted by another believer in love about his lifestyle and the man said that "i can do whatever I want, the preacher said so, and I will not be plucked out of His hands, i am saved by grace and nothing i do, and all i have to do is ask for forgiveness and thats all."
And i know lots of people who believe that way and i dont see any real change in their lives other than they say that they do believe that Jesus is the Christ and they asked him into their hearts at the alter ect... but they continue to live just like they did before they came to the knowledge of Him.
And of course I do not judge their salvation as this is left up to Yahweh, but i do question it because i see no real fruit if you will.
Scripture does say that in the latter days there will be a "falling away from the faith" and i guess you do have to be there first before you can fall from it.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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oneinchrist
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posted
The truth is that no matter what theology any of us hold to we are all going to be tested. Gods eyes watch over us seeing into all the thoughts and motives of our hearts. There is not one of us who can "fake it" to God. If Jesus is not first and foremost in our lives, God knows. Do we respond to Gods Word like one who trusts in His provisions? That is what faith is all about my friends. That is what God is looking for.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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posted
Dear Kindgo, I'm so sorry to hear that you have lost your salvation. I will pray for you that you will again come to see that Jesus died for your sins so that you do not have to die for your sins.
love, eden
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Keith
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1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
How can anyone depart from the faith, lest they were once in it?
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Apparently there will be many who thought they were Christians, but find out only to late, that they were not. They even prophesied in Christ’s name, cast out demons in Christ’s name, and did many wonderful works in Christ’s name, but they were none of His. This being the case, don’t you think it is a little dangerous to tell people that if they accepted Christ at one time in their life, they are home free from there. Once saved always saved may be popular, even feel good, but that does not make it biblical. Sinners are lazy, the last thing that we need to believe, is that salvation is easily secured, and maintained. It was not easily secured, it required the infinite sacrifice of the Son of God. It is not easily maintained, it requires the sacrifice of self. The very thing that the devil is extremely busy trying to prevent us from doing.
1 Cor 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
CHAPTER 10
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Paul includes himself among those who could possibly lose their goal, salvation. There is a choice to be made. Far be it from God to force Himself upon anyone. He did not give us the power of choice in the beginning, knowing that it would cost Him the life of His Son, just to take away that choice once His Son had died to procure it.
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Salvation was brought to us at an infinite cost. It is not something to be trifled with. Those who believe that they have obtained, and can maintain it with little or no effort, seemingly indifferent on their part, are seriously deceived.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Y. b. in c. Keith
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Carol Swenson
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posted
WildB is right - death has no victory over us. We live to love God and other people, and to do the good works God gives us to do through the Holy Spirit. We live to please God because we love Him, not because we are afraid every second that we might not measure up. Compared to God, we are children and we make mistakes. But our Father helps us to keep learning. ( Sometimes , not always, through chastisement).
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! (Romans 5:15, NIV)
We die because Adam brought death into the world. We were all born into Adam’s physical family—the family line that leads to certain death. All of us have reaped the results of Adam’s sin. We have inherited his guilt, a sinful nature (the tendency to sin), and God’s punishment. Because of Jesus, however, we can trade judgment for forgiveness. We can trade our sin for Jesus’ goodness. Christ offers us the opportunity to be born into his spiritual family—the family line that begins with forgiveness and leads to eternal life. If we do nothing, we have death through Adam; but if we come to God by faith, we have life through Christ.
(The Handbook of Bible Application)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
Dog gonit Michael~ I don't know why you and your people whan't to put the STING back into death?
Your long drawn out post are very confuseing to the average baseball fan except for the parts where you and yours wan't to give death its sting back.
1Cor.15
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
[56] The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Keith
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posted
2 Cor 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you. 13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. 16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Doesn’t sound like a one time experience to me.
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? 26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
Sounds pretty much like a daily experience to me.
1 Cor 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
How about that, Paul died daily.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Why speak of departing from the Lord, if the thing is not possible? According to you, this guy who wrote Hebrews sure doesn’t know what he is talking about. Saying we are only “made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end.”
Matt 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Even Jesus is contradicting you. Maybe you need to have a word with Him, straighten Him out on this issue.
Mark 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
Here are people who received the word, but then became offended by it.
Matt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
There goes Jesus again, contradicting you.
James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. 19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: 20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
What is all this talk of endurance anyway? What need is there to endure, if it is not possible to turn, or slip away? These people obviously have some serious theology issues if you are correct.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22: 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Get a load of this guy, he actually thinks that the saints keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony, and or faith, of Jesus Christ. Even to the extent of saying that it is those who do God’s commandments that have a right to the tree of life, and can enter into the city of God. He’s obviously all hung up about performance. Perhaps you could straighten Him out to. Forgive my sarcasm, just trying to emphasize a point.
Y. b. in C. Keith
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Keifer
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Saved? Don't take it for granted.
Yes, what a shame Jesus was so vague... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:28)
Even John, through inspiration, wrote that saved men would still sin and that their Savior would cover that sin:
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" (1 John 2:1)
If we sin after salvation, we lose our fellowship with God for a time, but not our relationship.
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
If you are ashamed 'when He shall appear at His coming', are you sure that you will still have made the grade?
That statement is the epitome of works salvation. You'll never make the grade Michael...NEVER. You're not good enough (Romans 3:23).
We are saved by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus (Ephesians 2:8-9) Michael, not by whether you think you 'made the grade'.
Posts: 3241 | From: Missouri USA | Registered: Nov 2002
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
It is through the Apostle Paul that the glorified Lord Jesus Christ revealed the gospel of grace through faith alone, and how we are eternally secure under grace. Romans clearly lays this out, particularly in chapters 6-8.
DEAD TO SIN
When we were saved, through the workmanship of the cross, we were made dead to sin. In the eyes of God, we sin no more. When he sees us, he sees us through Christ.
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
To reckon means to count on it. If we are not reckoning ourselves to be dead to sin, we are not living as who we are in Christ. If we are reckoning ourselves alive unto sin, that is our righteousness, not His.
FREE FROM SIN
When we were saved, through the workmanship of the cross, we were made free from sin. In the eyes of God, just like Christ, He sees us through Christ as free from sin.
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
DEAD TO THE LAW
When we were saved, through the workmanship of the cross, we were made dead to the law. In the eyes of God, just like Christ, He sees us through Christ as dead to the law. We've fulfilled the law through Christ.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
All of these things are PAST tense. They've already happened. We are in Christ and his work (workmanship). No one can be "ressurrected" to sin, to the law, etc.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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Jeremiah 10
21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
24 O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in Your anger, lest You bring me to nothing.
Zechariah 4:6
Then he answered and spoke to me, saying, This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might nor by power, but by My spirit, says the LORD of hosts.
Psalm 51
11 Cast me not away from Your presence; and take not Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation; and uphold me with Your free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors Your ways; and sinners shall be converted unto You.
Jeremiah 10
23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
Set my spirit free, that I may worship Thee.
Set my spirit free, that I may praise Your Name.
Jeremiah 9
13 And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein;
14 But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them:
15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink.
16 I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them.
23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24 But let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, says the LORD.
Jeremiah 7:19
Do they provoke Me to anger? says the LORD. Do they not rather provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Jeremiah 7:24
But they did not listen, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and they went backward, and not forward.
with love, eden
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Michael Harrison
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posted
|Well isn't it debatable? It depends upon what one looks at in a verse, and from what perspective as to how they interpret it! In that verse, was the evil servant not called 'servant'? Was he a servant or no? How can one assume that he was not saved because the Lord referred to him as an evil servant. He did call Him servant. Does calling him evil disqualify him as a servant, or de-legitimize him? Or is it a warning to him not to be evil, lest it cost him much?
|Saved? Don't take it for granted. It is dangerous. Moreover, it is presumptuous. (Ever heard of a book titled "Faith, Foolishness, or Presumption?") The parable of the virgins illustrates what happens to those who are presumptuous. Those virgins presumed to have enough oil, but in the critical moment, they understood that they didn't. They didn't get into the feast either (a representation of salvation). But were they not together with the others all along? They were part of the group invited to the feast, were they not? Yet what were they called in the parable? They were called foolish. How is that different from being called evil? For they were potentially in the graces of the groom, but took somewhat for granted, and then they were locked out.
|There is no humility in osas. You have a free will. God will not bang it down, overrule, or go past it. Your will must cooperate with His in order to benefit. Therefore those who cry Lord, Lord, who don't make it, do not so for calling Him Lord, but without submission to His will. That is not to say that they didn't know Him per se. This is why those who say Lord, Lord do not necessarily make it. It is not entirely because they are not saved.
|It depends on what you 'want to see' when you read the scriptures. For that - you will see, whether according to carnal interpretation, or according to the eternal one. But is there any submission in seeing what you want to see? Or is it in being shown what He wants one to see? That is where debate will go on and on until He comes, with argument. But the self assured will not heed sound doctrine. Will they be responsible for those in whom they instilled false confidence? How will it feel to be eternally locked up with some who took your word for something, and they ended up in the same condition as you?
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
|According to my Bible, we are evil, born in sin, though we do not have to live evil. So what these passages are saying is not to be evil based on the fact of His grace, because we do not have to be. Simple! It is calling for obedience. The passages are saying to repent; fear and reverence the Lord, keeping a watchful eye on Him. They are saying to all of us, that we not become complacent, or slowthful, not rather that we might not actually be saved even though they can apply in that way. (Although if it could double for both, are you willing to take a chance on slothfulness based on what you know of scripture?)
|If osas were true, then Israel would be saved even this hour in spite of themselves. The penalty for not accepting Christ as savior would be null if osas held true. (This'll just open a can of worms.) The argument will be made that Jesus is the beginning of the New Covenant. But Does scripture not say, "The same yesterday, today, and forever?" Israel is the apple of His eye. How will HE let them perish because they don't recognize what He has done for them? If osas is true, He will not let them perish, for He chose them! He called them out. HE made a nation out of them. If osas were true....
|The parable of the virgins describes someone who is on the inside, who nevertheless played around in the world and lost a grip on what had a grip on them: the hope of salvation (Even as Israel). Similar passages, or parables, taken in context are talking about the second coming, and being ready for it, yet, are they not about meeting the Lord. Whether we pass away and meet Him, or He comes in the air, it is about meeting Him. Therefore these verses speak plainly about being prepared in spirit and in truth, to meet Him without shame, so that we will sit with Him and not with the hypocrites.
|This passage:
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
...indicates someone who was in the grace of God, who took for granted what God was providing Him. Therefore he was considered the same as a hypocrite, and he suffered the ultimate rejection that he had no doubt that he would not. He was considered a hypocrite, even though potentially, he was not.
|One will believe what one will, however, there is no problem with the humility of thinking, "God be merciful to me, a sinner," as opposed to exalting ones self saying, "I got it!"
|You got what? Salvation is not something. Salvation is a person. If salvation were a thing, where would be the relationship. Yet if salvation is a person, relationship is paramount, and one could fail to confide in the person, and drop out of relationship. That is the notion in the passages that say to watch for Him and be ready. And that is exactly why He said to 'abide in Him'.
1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
If you are ashamed 'when He shall appear at His coming', are you sure that you will still have made the grade? The evil servant was found evil for thinking in his heart that his lord 'delayeth' His coming. He wanted to play in the dark, probably because somebody told him about osas.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Kindgo
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posted
Oh No, I Think I Just Lost My Salvation!
By Ron Graham
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out…” And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing… Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:37, 39, & 47.
As we read and study our Bibles, there should be a voice speaking to us, reminding us to take in the full council of God. Too many Bible teachers will take one verse out of Scripture and build a doctrine on it. Even though that scripture is qualified by other scriptures and the teacher has drawn an erroneous conclusion, the wrong interpretation is still taught as truth. The controversy over “once saved, always saved” is one of those doctrines.
Can we, once we’re born again, lose our salvation? Jesus says, “All that the Father gives Me I will not lose or cast out”. Jesus reconfirms verse 37 using verse 39. Then He puts a cap on it with verse 47. Christ is sending a clear message to all who have turned their lives over to Him, that once justified the born again believer cannot lose their salvation. God the Father draws us to God the Son, and God the Son tells us we are in His hands. Nothing can separate us from Him. Nothing. The following verse is used often by some Bible teachers to establish doubt about the notion of once saved always saved. “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,” Philippians 2:12. Paul is not advising the Philippians to save themselves that would be works. All he’s saying is don’t be satisfied with just being saved, there is much more to do now that we’re saved.
As born again believers, we are in Christ. “[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus…” Romans 8:1. Condemnation is Satan’s tool, and he wields it mercilessly. Do Christians continually mess up? Yes. John the Apostle has a response to messing up. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness,” 1 John 1:9. There’s a battle raging between our spirit and our flesh. Sometimes we win the battle and sometimes we lose, but we cannot lose the war. That’s a different matter altogether. There’s a spiritual war going on all around us, Satan and his minions of evil vs. God and His army of angels. God’s the winner and Satan’s always the loser.
Taking scripture out of context can lead to flawed interpretations. If we are endeavoring to teach others through discipleship, we certainly don’t want to teach erroneously. I’ve heard it said by some that we don’t necessarily lose our salvation but we can leave it behind. That statement makes no sense to me; we are either saved or we are not. There is no middle ground here. These verses from the book of Matthew seem to add credence to those who teach the doctrine of leaving ones salvation behind. “But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 24:48-51. The term evil servant says a lot about this individual. The fact that this evil servant, on occasion, refers to his master as “lord” says nothing of a profession of faith. The servant’s evil actions alone condemn him. The word hypocrite, (hypokritēs in the Greek) has more than one definition. One of which is pretender. A person can pretend to be something they are not, in this case the evil servant was pretending to be a loyal servant when all along he was only an evil doer. As I read the verse above I see no sign that points to this evil servant as ever having been saved. He didn’t leave his salvation behind, he never had it.
Calling Jesus Lord doesn’t cement anyone’s salvation. Jesus said: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven,” Matthew 7:20-21. Clearly the servant spoken of above, even though referring to his master as Lord was not doing his masters will.
In his letter to the Romans, Paul the Apostle gives us a huge nugget to chew on “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation,” Romans 10:9 & 10. This is a 2 part requirement….those who confess and believe are saved. You can say it all you want, but unless you believe it you’re lost.
This servant spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24 was not saved. Remember, Judas Iscariot was with Jesus for His entire earthly ministry, and yet Judas betrayed Him. Was Judas a born again believer just because he spent three years walking the shores of Galilee with Jesus? Certainly not, he was pretending.
We are called by a Holy Calling. Once called, and once we’ve asked Jesus to come into our lives to be our Lord and Savior, we are justified. We are a new creation in Christ, born again, and according to God Himself, we can never leave our salvation behind. Falter now and then, absolutely. Does it change our status as born again? Not hardly, but here’s the rub. When we become born again, that begins our journey with Christ. We have an obligation to Christ to be a witness for Him. We aren’t accomplishing anything by keeping silent. We must witness to the lost. Many Christians falter in this area. When it comes to witnessing, I believe Christians by their blatant refusal to witness begin to experience a sense of condemnation. Then they begin to feel they’ve lost their salvation. It isn’t that they’ve lost it. It’s that they are hiding it. Share your faith, be His disciple, spread His Gospel to all that will listen. Remember, condemnation is of the Devil.
If you’re feeling a sense of failure as a Christian, or if you’ve experienced what you believe is condemnation, in actuality it may not be condemnation at all. It might just be that the Holy Spirit is doing in you what He does in all of us. It’s called conviction. “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved,” Romans 10:13. To call upon is better translated from the Greek as “appeal to”. We appeal to our Lord, and we shall be saved.
One more thing, if we make the claim of being born again, we should keep it in mind that our lifestyle is a Tattletale.
God bless you all,
Ron Graham
Email: twotug@embarqmail.com
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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