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Author Topic: Still future or in part completed?
Isaiah
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I see what you are saying -I do not in any way disagree that these alterations of the truth are "abominations of the earth". I was merely pointing out that the thing which will again cause people in Judea to flee is a military action yet future.

However, that institution which counterfeited the sabbath and holy days of God with observances from the BABYLONian MYSTERY religion -(Easter/Astarte/Ishtar) and others (Jeremiah 10) -is instrumental in building the empire which will be ruled by that political/military leader.

"3. From the European Union to Multipolar Diplomacy
For most of its history, Vatican diplomacy has operated on what might be called a "Great Power" theory, meaning that the church would attach itself to the great Catholic power of the day and look to it to protect its interests and advance its concerns. For most of the post-World War II period, a fundamental diplomatic project of the Holy See was to promote the emergence of the European Union as the next Catholic, or at least Catholic-influenced, power."

From..."The Vatican's changing relationship with Europe"

http://ncrcafe.org/node/1235

It goes on to say something to the effect that the secularization of Europe is making this difficult.

The Vatican and the EU are inseparable simply due to their existence (and that the Vatican -though a separate state and not an EU member -is within the borders of the EU). They will each seek from the other that which is advantageous to their interests -and will influence each other -but their relationship will be anything but smooth. They will also have conflicts of interest.

In the end, the ten kings under that political/military leader will be the undoing of that religious power.

Rev 17:16-18 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the ***** , and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

See also...
http://www.kc3.co.uk/~dt/eu_army.htm

"THE idea of a pan-European economic and political union with its own defence force was conceived by SS officers according to documents released today to the Public Record Office in Kew. Maj Gen Ellersiek and Brig Mueller, Hitler's chief of staff during the Battle of the Bulge, came up with the idea as a means of keeping Nazism alive following the expected Allied victory in the Second World War."

"The good which was in Nazism still lives in the German heart," Ellersiek said. His party offered "a new revolution for Germany which will set the pattern for Europe". This revolution is to be the work of the new elite, the German prototype of the future rulers of Europe . . . which has emerged purified from Nazism and the trials of war." (Daily Telegraph 15/2/01)

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Keith
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quote:
To what period is Jesus referring to here? If this kingdom of the gospel must first be preached in every nation, and then the abomination of desolation happens AFTER the gospel is preached to every nation, then WHAT could be THIS abomination of desolation which makes desolate that stands in a holy place...BE if it is still FUTURE to us?

Many of us see and hear about the world through , CNN and BBCNews and ABCNews and others. Looking ahead from now, what could such an abomination of desolation which makes desolate and stands in a holy place, such as Daniel spoke of look like or consist of, if this happens AFTER the gospel is preached to all the nations and is still FUTURE to us?

And who or what is this abomination which makes desolate that stands in the holy place, if this is still FUTURE to us?

I did not mean to convey the idea that the gospel of the kingdom is first preached to all the world, before the abomination of desolation is set up. Rather, that the mystery of Godliness, which is revealed through the gospel, and the mystery of iniquity, which is revealed through Babylon the great, develop at the same time. The under lying principals and manifestations of the two warring as it were, at all times on this earth. The wheat and the tares grow together, until the Lord returns and separates them. When the crops of this world, which are brought to fruition by either the gospel, that is the revelation of the mystery of Godliness, or the abominations of Rome, that is to say the revelation of the mystery of iniquity, then the crops will be reaped.

Matt 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.



Now, what is the abomination of desolation that will be set up at the end of time? We have already discussed what an abomination is in previous posts, mainly the establishment of pagan sun worshipping rites and ceremonies within the worship of those who claim to worship the true God. You cannot mix the truth with a lie, and still have any truth, the result is always, and only a lie. Therefore, any and all religious teachings, rites, and ceremonies brought into the church from paganism, or any other false religion, are an abomination to God. As previously stated, the church of Rome is the MOTHER of all such abominations within Christianity. Observe the following.


“Popery, then, we hold to be an after-growth of Paganism,……………………… Its oracles had been silenced, its shrines demolished, and its gods consigned to oblivion; but the deep corruption of the human race, not yet cured by the promised effusion of the Spirit upon all flesh, revived it anew, and, under a Christian mask, reared other temples in its honour, built it another Pantheon, and replenished it with other gods, which, in fact, were but the ancient divinities under new names. All idolatries, in whatever age or country they have existed, are to be viewed but as successive developments of the one grand apostacy. That apostacy was commenced in Eden, and consummated at Rome. It had its rise in the plucking of the forbidden fruit; and it attained its acme in the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome,--Christ's Vicar on earth. The hope that he would "be as God," led man to commit the first sin; and that sin was perfected when the Pope "exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Popery is but the natural development of this great original transgression. It is just the early idolatries ripened and perfected. It is manifestly an enormous expansion of the same intensely malignant and fearfully destructive principle which these idolatries contained. The ancient Chaldean worshipping the sun,--the Greek deifying the powers of nature,--and the Roman exalting the race of primeval men into gods, are but varied manifestations of the same evil principle, namely, the utter alienation of the heart from God,--its proneness to hide itself amid the darkness of its own corrupt imaginations, and to become a god unto itself. That principle received the most fearful development which appears possible on earth, in the Mystery of Iniquity which came to be seated on the Seven Hills; for therein man deified himself, became God, nay, arrogated powers which lifted him high above God. Popery is the last, the most matured, the most subtle, the most skilfully contriven, and the most essentially diabolical form of idolatry which the world ever saw, or which, there is reason to believe, it ever will see. It is the ne plus ultra of man's wickedness, and the chef d'oeuvre of Satan's cunning and malignity. It is the greatest calamity, next to the Fall, which ever befell the human family. Farther away from God the world could not exist at all. The cement that holds society together, already greatly weakened, would be altogether destroyed, and the social fabric would instantly fall in ruins.” ( History of the Papacy. By Rev. J.A. Wylie, LL.D. Chapter I. )


No sooner were the apostles removed from the stage of action, no sooner was their watchful attention gone and their apostolic authority removed, than this very thing appeared of which the apostle had spoken. Certain bishops, in order to make easier the conversion of the heathen, to multiply disciples, and by this increase their own influence and authority, began to adopt heathen customs and forms.

When the canon of Scripture was closed, and the last of the apostles was dead, the first century was gone; and within twenty years of that time the perversion of the truth of Christ had become wide-spread. In the history of this century and of this subject the record is, —
“It is certain that to religious worship, both public and private, many rites were added, without necessity, and to the offense of sober and good men.” ( Mosheim - “Ecclesiastical History,” Murdock’s translation, century 2, part 2, chap. iv, par. 1. )

And the reason of this is stated to be that —
“The Christians were pronounced atheists, because they were destitute of temples, altars, victims, priests, and all that pomp in which the vulgar suppose the essence of religion to consist. For unenlightened persons are prone to estimate religion by what meets their eyes. To silence this accusation, the Christian doctors thought it necessary to introduce some external rites, which would strike the senses of the people, so that they could maintain themselves really to possess all those things of which Christians were charged with being destitute, though under different forms.” ( Mosheim - Id., par. 3. )

This was at once to accommodate the Christian worship and its forms to that of the heathen, and was almost at one step to heathenize Christianity. No heathen element or form can be connected with Christianity or its worship, and Christianity remain pure.

Of all the ceremonies of the heathen, the mysteries were the most sacred and most universally practised. Some mysteries were in honor of Bacchus, some of Cybele, but the greatest of all, those considered the most sacred of all and the most widely practised, were the Eleusinian, so called because celebrated at Eleusis in Greece. But whatever was the mystery that was celebrated, there was always in it, as an essential part of it, the elements of abomination that characterized sun-worship everywhere, because the mysteries were simply forms of the wide-spread and multiform worship of the sun.



We will pause here for a brief moment to take note of the above statement. The vast majority of the pagan rites and ceremonies adopted by apostate Christianity, were elements of the many, and varied forms of Sun worship. This same fact holds true also, to the varied forms of worship adopted by apostate Israel during the old covenant. This issue we will address in greater detail later in this book.


Among the first of the perversions of the Christian worship was to give to its forms the title and air of the mysteries. For says the record: — “Among the Greeks and the people of the East, nothing was held more sacred than what were called the mysteries. This circumstance led the Christians, in order to impart dignity to their religion, to say that they also had similar mysteries, or certain holy rites concealed from the vulgar; and they not only applied the terms used in the pagan mysteries to Christian institutions, particularly baptism and the Lord’s Supper, but they gradually introduced also the rites which were designated by these terms.” ( Mosheim - Id., par. 5. )


It was to accommodate the Christian worship to the minds of a people who practised these things that the bishops gave to the Christian ordinances the name of mysteries. The Lord’s Supper was made the greater mystery, baptism the lesser and the initiatory rite to the celebration of the former. After the heathen manner also a white garment was used as the initiatory robe, and the candidate, having been baptized, and thus initiated into the lesser mysteries, was admitted into what was called in the church the order of catechumens, in which order they remained a certain length of time, as in the heathen celebration, before they were admitted to the celebration of the Lord’s Supper, the greater mystery.

“This practice originated in the Eastern provinces, and then after the time of Hadrian (who first introduced the pagan mysteries among the Latins) it spread among the Christians of the West.” The reign of Hadrian was from 117-138. Therefore, before the second century was half gone, before the last of the apostles had been dead forty years, this apostasy, this working of the mystery of iniquity, had so largely spread over both the East and the West, that it is literally true that “a large part, therefore, of the Christian observances and institutions, even in this century, had the aspect of the pagan mysteries.” ( Mosheim - “Ecclesiastical History,” century 2, part 2, chap. 4, par. 5. ) ( The Great Empires of Prophecy, A. T. Jones )


When Christianity conquered Rome the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church, the title and vestments of the pontifex maximus, the worship of the Great Mother and a multitude of comforting divinities, the sense of supersensible presences everywhere, the joy or solemnity of old festivals, and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony, passed like maternal blood into the new religion, and captive Rome captured her conqueror. The reins and skill of government were handed down by a dying empire to a virile papacy; the lost power of the broken sword was rewon by the magic of the consoling word; the armies of the state were replaced by the missionaries of the Church moving in all directions along the Roman roads; and the revolted provinces, accepting Christianity, again acknowledged the sovereignty of Rome. Through the long struggles of the Age of Faith the authority of the ancient capital persisted and grew, until in the Renaissance the classic culture seemed to rise from the grave, and the immortal city became once more the center of summit of the world's life and wealth and art. When, in 1936, Rome celebrated the 2689th anniversary of her foundation, she could look back upon the most impressive continuity of government and civilization in the history of mankind. May she rise again.(CAESAR AND CHRIST, A history of Roman Civilization and of Christianity from their beginnings to A.D.325. By Will Durant-1944)


“A law of the year 321 ordered tribunals, shops, and workshops to be closed on the day of the sun, and he [Constantine] sent to the legions, to be recited upon that day, a form of prayer which could have been employed by a worshiper of Mithra, of Serapis, or of Apollo, quite as well as by a Christian believer. This was the official sanction of the old custom of addressing a prayer to the rising sun. IN DETERMINING WHAT DAYS SHOULD BE REGARDED AS HOLY, and in the composition of a prayer for national use, CONSTANTINE EXERCISED ONE OF THE RIGHTS BELONGING TO HIM AS PONTIFEX MAXIMUS; and it caused no surprise that he should do this.” ( Duruy - “History of Rome,” chap. 102, part 1:par. 4 from end. )


The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :
"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884

Dr. A.Chr. Bang says regarding this Law :
"This Sunday law constituted no real favoratism to Christianity..... It is evident from all his statuatory provisions that the Emperor during the time 313-323 with full consciousness has sought the realisation of his religeous aim: the amalgamation of heathenism and Christianity." Kirken og Romerstaten (The Church and the Roman State) p.256. Christiania, 1879

J. Westbury-Jones, an English writer, speaks thus: “ How such a law would further the designs of Constantine it is not difficult to discover. It would confer a special honor upon the festival of the Christian church, and it would grant a slight boon to the pagans themselves. In fact there is nothing in this edict which might not have been written by a pagan. The law does honor to the pagan deity whom Constantine had adopted as his special patron god, Apollo or the sun [Constantine retained the motto “Soli Invicto” to the end of his life]. The very name of the day lent itself to this ambiguity. The term Sunday (dies Solis) was in use among Christians as well as heathen.” (Roman and Christian Imperialism, p. 210)

The retention of the old pagan name of “dies Solis” or “Sunday”, for the weekly Christian festival, is in great measure owing to the union of pagan and Christian sentiment with which the first day of the week was recommended by Constantine to his subjects, pagan and Christian alike, as the “venerable day of the sun”. His decree regulating it’s observance has been justly called a new era in the history of the Lord’s day. It was his mode of harmonizing the discordant religions of the empire under one common institution. (A. P. Stanely, History of the Eastern Church, p. 184)

In A.D. 321, to please the bishops of the Catholic Church, he issued an edict commanding judges, townspeople, and mechanics to rest on Sunday. Yet in this also his paganism was still manifest, as the edict required rest on "the venerable day of the sun," and "enjoined the observance, or rather forbade the public desecration, of Sunday, not under the name of Sabbatum, or Dies Domini, but under its old astrological and heathen title, Dies Solis , familiar to all his subjects, so that the law was as applicable to the worshipers of Hercules, Apollo, and Mithras, as to the Christians." (History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, sec. 75, par. 5.-Schaff.) ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 391 )

Then came Constantine, the best imperial representative of the new paganism, and the most devout worshiper of the sun as the supreme and universal deity, with the avowed purpose, as expressed in his own words, "First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." In Constantine the new paganism met its ideal, and the New Platonism - the apostate, paganized, sun-worshiping form of Christianity - met its long-wished-for instrument. In him the two streams met. In him the aspiration of Elagabalus, the hope of Ammonius Saccas and Clement, of Plotinus and Origen, and the ambition of the perverse-minded, self-exalted bishops, were all realized and accomplished - a new, imperial, and universal religion was created.
Therefore, "the reign of Constantine the Great forms one of the epochs in the history of the world. It is the era of the dissolution of the Roman Empire; the commencement, or rather consolidation, of a kind of Eastern despotism, with a new capital, a new patriciate, a new constitution, a new financial system, a new, though as yet imperfect, jurisprudence, and, finally, a new religion." ( Milman - History of Christianity, book 3, chap. 1, par. 1 )
The epoch thus formed was the epoch of the papacy; and the new religion thus created was the PAPAL RELIGION. ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 361 )


"Aurelian ... created a new cult of the 'Invincible Son.' Worshipped in a splendid temple, served by pontiffs who were raised to the level of the ancient pontiffs of Rome .... On establishing this new cult, Aurelian in reality proclaimed the dethronement of the old Roman idolatry and the accession of Semitic Sun-Worship." Franz Cumont, "Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans," p. 55, 56.

"The two opposed creeds [Christianity and Mithraism] moved in the same intellectual and moral sphere, and one could actually pass from one to the other without shock or interruption." Cumont, ibid. p. 210.


"Our observance of Sunday as the Lord's day is apparently derived from Mithraism. The argument that has sometimes been used against this claim, namely, that Sunday was chosen because of the resurrection on that day, is not well supported." Gordon J. Laing, "Survivals of Roman Religion," p. 148.


"As a solar festival, Sunday was the sacred day of Mithra; and it is interesting to notice that since Mithra was addressed as Dominus, 'Lord,' Sunday must have been the 'Lord's Day' long before the Christian times." A. Weigall, "The Paganism in Our Christianity," p. 145.



The church of Rome is filled with abominable practices, rites, and doctrines brought into her from sun worshipping paganism. These abominations were brought into the church via the adulteress relationships which the church of Rome had with the kings of the earth, in order to establish herself in a position of power. These kings themselves being pagan sun worshippers, they brought sun worshipping citizens into the church by the hundreds of thousands, and also many of the rites, ceremonies, and doctrines of paganism. Constantine being perhaps the most prominent of these. Sunday sacredness came to apostate Christianity directly from pagan sun worship. Although the decline and fall of the Roman empire was in conjunction with the rise of the church of Rome within the same, this particular abomination brought on desolation swiftly, when it was set up by law in place of God’s holy Sabbath day. It is the apex of the abominations of the church of Rome. Setting it up by law as the day of worship, in the place of God’s seventh day Sabbath, is the equivalent of what the Jews did in Ezekiel chap. 8&9 when they turned their backs on the temple of God, to bow down and worship the sun.

This greatest of the abominations listed in these chapters of Ezekiel brought the swift judgment of God upon Jerusalem and the temple by the hand of the king of the north, that is Babylon. So to did the setting up of Sunday sacredness by law within the Roman empire. The establishment of Sunday sacredness by law within the Roman empire, was concurrent to the devastating and destructive invasions from the barbarians of the north within the same. By the time that Sunday sacredness had almost completely replaced the seventh day Sabbath among Christians within the western Roman empire, the empire itself had fallen.

This same process is happening again. The church of Rome is gaining political power daily, on a global scale. So to is the entire world beginning a dive from which it will not recover. The church of Rome has the purpose of once again setting up her holy day by law in all the world. This of course will bring swift judgment from God. Devastation, destruction, desolation, and ruin of all kinds upon all the world, which is waxing old and preparing to pass away altogether at the coming of the Lord. What does the beast do, but make all the world worship a certain way that is contrary to the word of God. These things are addressed in the book of Revelation chap. 12 and on.

Observe the following-

Therefore, also in the particular circumstances of our own time, Christians will naturally strive to ensure that civil legislation respects their duty to keep Sunday holy. In any case, they are obliged in conscience to arrange their Sunday rest in a way which allows them to take part in the Eucharist, refraining from work and activities which are incompatible with the sanctification of the Lord's Day, with its characteristic joy and necessary rest for spirit and body. (112) (Pope John Paul II's APOSTOLIC LETTER DIES DOMINI)

The Lord never sanctified Sunday. It was the church of Rome that claimed authority to change the day which God sanctified, authority which she never had, nor has. It was her adulteress relations with the kings of the earth, and not God, that brought about this abomination. When the church of Rome finally realizes her goal, through her present adulteress relationships with the kings of the earth, then desolation will come upon the earth as a result.

Y. b. in C. Keith

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Keith
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quote:
And that is exactly what happened in 70 A.D. with General Titus and with the Jews. The Japhetic Italian Roman Gentiles stood with their royal standard in the holy place. They were the "abomination which makes desoate that stands in the holy place" (whoso reads, let him understand).
Yes the above is a literal fulfillment of the prophecy. However, the prophecy given by Christ was dual in nature, in that He was answering two questions from His disciples. One of which was, when will the temple be destroyed, and the second which was, what are the signs of your coming, and of the end of the world?

Matt 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Christ answered both of these questions with a prophecy that would be fulfilled at both of these times. Christ knew that His followers would consider the setting up of the Roman armies around Jerusalem to lay siege to the same, a fulfillment of this prophecy. Therefore God allowed the armies of Rome to begin this siege, only to desert it before accomplishing it‘s goal. They came a second time though, and destroyed the temple and Jerusalem. During this interval, the followers of Christ seeing this as a fulfillment of the prophecy, all fled from Jerusalem. It is said that no Christians died in that siege. The specifics of what the book of Luke says regarding this incident helped the Christians to know to leave Jerusalem After they saw the armies of Rome their the first time.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The destruction of the literal temple and Jerusalem was a literal fulfillment of the prophecy. Literal pagan Rome destroyed literal Israel because she had rejected her only Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The temple and people of Israel were void of the presence of God, this brought devastation, destruction, desolation, and ruin upon them. It was truly the end of the old covenant church and nation of God, which was replaced by the new covenant church and nation of God. A church and nation that broke all boundaries of race, religion, and nationality. Anyone who loins the new covenant church leaves all nations and kingdoms of this world, and becomes a citizen of the kingdom of God. This was always the intention of God, that through the seed of Abraham, Christ, all nations should be blessed.

Now the church is spiritual Israel, composed of all those who are born again in Christ Jesus. Thus all Israel shall be saved. Just as there is now a spiritual Israel, so to is there now a spiritual Rome. The greater part of biblical prophecy in the new covenant era is concerning the battle between these two entities in this world. That is, between the truth, the mystery of Godliness, which is revealed through Jesus Christ the Son of the living God, and the lie, the mystery of iniquity, which is revealed through the church of Rome. For she is MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. The abomination of desolation is to be found in the cup which she drinks from, and which she intends to make all the nations of the earth drink from. This cup is filled with her abominations, which are all of her abominable teachings, and doctrines, and practices. Thus God’s people must come out of her, before Christ returns. They must separate themselves from her abominations, which will bring the judgment of God upon this entire world.


Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The church of Rome is that institution which re-established the abominations of mixing pagan sun worshipping practices and doctrines with the new covenant church and nation, spiritual Israel. She is the one we must separate ourselves from, for she has, and does, pollute the sanctuary of God. Thus she is reaching out to all churches, and religions, and nations to bring them into her fold, forming a new world order in rebellion against the God of heaven. Come out of her my people is the call, do not join hands with the MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

I will address the specifics of the abomination of desolation in the next post.

Y. b. in c. Keith

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Isaiah
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We (hopefully) realize this is future....

Zec 14:2-5 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains....

That IS the final abomination of desolation... which should be made quite clear in...

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains...

and...

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let (him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains...

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Okay, fine. But to what period then does Jesus refer to here:
quote:
Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso reads, let him understand:)

To what period is Jesus referring to here? If this kingdom of the gospel must first be preached in every nation, and then the abomination of desolation happens AFTER the gospel is preached to every nation, then WHAT could be THIS abomination of desolation which makes desolate that stands in a holy place...BE if it is still FUTURE to us?

Many of us see and hear about the world through , CNN and BBCNews and ABCNews and others. Looking ahead from now, what could such an abomination of desolation which makes desolate and stands in a holy place, such as Daniel spoke of look like or consist of, if this happens AFTER the gospel is preached to all the nations and is still FUTURE to us?

And who or what is this abomination which makes desolate that stands in the holy place, if this is still FUTURE to us?

Psalm 48:2
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Isaiah 14:13
For you {Lucifer} have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will also sit upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.

with love, eden

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Eden
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Hi. Keith. You said to Eden
quote:
Apparently we have a misunderstanding. You gave the definition of the word used for desolate in the scriptures we are discussing, and said that the word always means uninhabited when used in the old testament. Here is the def.

Strong's Concordance
8074 shamem, a primitive root; to stun (or intransitively, grow numb), i.e. devastate or (figuratively) stupefy (both usually in a passive sense):--make amazed, be astonied, (be an) astonish(ment), (be, bring into, unto, lay, lie, make) desolate, places), be destitute, destroy (self), (lay, lie, make) waste, wonder.

The word uninhabited is not even in the above definition.

Your point is well-taken. It is not that desolate itself means without inhabitants, it is that when desolate occurs, the result if no inhabitants can live in that wasteland.

So what is "the abomination which makes desolate"? It is "an abomination", which is something non-Jewish as Daniel of Judah, right?

And this "abomination makes desolate" or makes a place waste, coupled with the natural result: without inhabitant. What kind of abomination would do that?

Matthew 24:15
When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso reads, let him understand).

So this "abomination which makes desolate" or "abomination of desolation", stands in the holy place.

It is my understanding that Roman General Titus stood and walked with his princes in the holy place of the temple of the LORD God of Israel at Jerusalem, and even in the holy of holies, so that by the Japethic Gentiles the holy place and the holy of holies was defiled.

So it is an "abomination which makes desolate which will stand in the holy place", was 100% fulfilled in Roman General Titus in 70 A.D., wasn't it?

The place was made desolate and without inhabitant, the temple complex was thrown down, and the Jews who were still alive were sold into the countries of the known world.

The Romans sold the rest of the Jews as slaves to the countries of the Roman empire, where the Jews "joined their brethren the house of Israel" who were already dispersed in the same countries.

So yes, Keith, you're right, that "without inhabitant" is NOT IN the definition for "desolate".

But what I meant was that the result of this abomination which makes "desolate" is that the place was now without inhabitants.

And that is exactly what happened in 70 A.D. with General Titus and with the Jews. The Japhetic Italian Roman Gentiles stood with their royal standard in the holy place. They were the "abomination which makes desoate that stands in the holy place" (whoso reads, let him understand).

with love, eden

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Keith
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Hello Eden.

Apparently we have a misunderstanding. You gave the definition of the word used for desolate in the scriptures we are discussing, and said that the word always means uninhabited when used in the old testament. Here is the def.

Strong's Concordance
8074 shamem, a primitive root; to stun (or intransitively, grow numb), i.e. devastate or (figuratively) stupefy (both usually in a passive sense):--make amazed, be astonied, (be an) astonish(ment), (be, bring into, unto, lay, lie, make) desolate, places), be destitute, destroy (self), (lay, lie, make) waste, wonder.

The word uninhabited is not even in the above definition. I see, to stun, devastate, stupefy, make amazed, be astonied, astonish, desolate, be destitute, destroy, waste, and wonder. I do not argue that it can mean uninhabited, just that it can also apparently mean some of the above also. As the definition clearly points out. The same word is translated into English 49 times as desolate, 20 times as astonished,7 times as desolation, 5 times as waste, 3 times as destroy, twice as wondered, once amazed, and once astonished, a grand total of 92 times.

The definition uninhabited is fine with me. The abomination of desolation causes something to be uninhabited, this would be void of God’s presence of course. What happens to all things that are void of God’s presence? They come to naught. Here is what Webster says about desolation.

1 : the action of desolating
2 a : GRIEF, SADNESS b : LONELINESS
3 : DEVASTATION, RUIN *a scene of utter desolation*
4 : barren wasteland

The abomination of desolation causes the removal of God’s presence, which results in the ruin of those involved. When Israel mixed abominations into their worship of the true God and His temple the first time, God removed His presence from them, and their temple, and sent His judgments upon them. The result was the ruin, devastation, desolation, and destruction of their temple, and nation.

When the leadership of Israel rejected and crucified their only Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the one whom all of their temple services and ceremonies pointed to, God’s presence left their temple. I brought this up in a previous post. After forty more years of continuing the abomination of rejected their only Lord and Savior through rejecting His gospel, the presence of God left them. The result was the ruin, devastation, desolation, and destruction of their temple, and nation for a second time.

When Christianity conquered pagan Rome, it became Christian Rome. Once again the people of God mixed the abominations of pagan Rome into the worship and temple of the true God. The temple on earth, which is the body of Christ, the church, was polluted with the abominations of paganism. Once again, the presence of God was removed from the temple. The result was the ruin, devastation, desolation, and destruction of the Roman empire. More specifically, the western Roman empire, that which was subject to the church of Rome, not the Byzantine Empire.

Eventually there was a reformation, by which many Christians separated themselves from the abominable teachings and practices of the church of Rome. The Protestant reformation advanced liberty in it’s quest for the same from the church of Rome. Freedom of thought, and freedom to have, and read the word of God radically changed the word for Christians. One of the end results of the reformers quest for liberty, which they were not so quick to grant to others, was the government of the United States of America. A government that guaranteed freedom to all of it’s citizens, in no small part, by maintaining a separation of church and state. This nation grew to be the most powerful in the world, built upon Protestant principals. Now though, many Protestant churches are turning back to Rome, and the government of this mighty nation is ever increasingly influenced by the church of Rome. Not this government only, but much of the world. As the members of the temple of God increasingly turn back to the church of Rome, and the leaders of the world also, they will once again become hopelessly entangled with the abominations of the same. God’s presence will be removed. The result will be the ruin, devastation, desolation, and destruction of the world. First by the judgments of God pointed out in Revelation 16, and then by the personal appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.


quote:
Keith, regarding your posts, your posts contain a lot of text paragraphs, but the paragraphs contain few, if any, links to scriptures, and that always concerns me.

Now, I don’t hear Papal Rome threatening to wipe Israel of the map and push Israel into the sea? But I have heard Ishmaelite Mecca Islam, through the Islamic Persian Ahmajinedad make those threats.

And in the 20th century and in our current 21st century, I have not heard Papal Rome threatening to kill those cross-loving Christians? But I have heard the Persian Islamic Ahmajinedad make those threats?

Papal Rome is not a threat to Israel to which the Prince must come soon. Ishmaelite Islam is a threat to Israel to which the Prince must soon come.

The things that I shared with you that were not scripture, were history. Biblical prophecy is not fulfilled by scripture. Biblical prophecy concerns events that will take place in this world, in relation to God’s people. History reveals the unfolding of these events, some of which I have shared with you. You seem to think that biblical prophecy has completely neglected to address the largest and longest lasting religio-political persecuting power this world has ever seen. You are mistaken.

I will tell you your mistake. You are looking to a people, who are no longer God’s people, for the fulfillment of biblical prophecy in relation to what will happen to God’s people in this world. Thus you await events that will never transpire. If they do, they will only be part of the satanic deception of the last days. There is no literal nation on earth today that can be considered God’s people, including Israel, and the Jews. This is the very thing that Christ came to abolish, that is any literal kingdom of God on earth prior to His coming to personally set it up. He came to establish His spiritual kingdom on earth, and now, only those who are born again are of the kingdom of God, and no longer of the kingdoms of this world.

Biblical prophecies fulfillment in the new covenant era no longer concerns literal Israel, but rather spiritual Israel. Spiritual Israel is composed of all the children of Abraham by faith, not the flesh. The prophecies of the bible in this new covenant era concern the church of Christ, not the literal nation of Israel whose fathers rejected the same, and have not yet accepted the truth concerning Christ themselves. Observe the following.

Matt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Matt 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Until you understand this biblical truth, you will not ever correctly understand biblical prophecy for these last days. I am sure that you are not aware that what you believe has it’s roots in the counter reformation of the church of Rome. She commissioned some of her Jesuits to come up with alternate interpretations of prophecy to combat what all the reformers were saying about her. The futurist interpretation which one of them came up with, centered around putting most of the prophecies in the future concerning the literal Jews. This interpretation was invented specifically to draw attention away from the fact that the church of Rome fulfilled much of the biblical prophecies of the new covenant era. Here you are today presenting their arguments, and denying that biblical prophecy addresses the largest and longest lasting religio-political persecuting power that the world has ever seen.

There is more to say concerning some of your comments, but I am out of time now. I will address them later.

Y. b. in c. Keith

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Isaiah
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First, I'm not sure what you mean by "the coming fight". THE FIGHT IS ON! It's happening -though not yet at full force. The fight before Christ returns includes everyone -but will not be as one might expect given current circumstances.

First -Islam/Ishmaelites.. and Israelites (not only Israel but the US, Australia, Britain) are already at odds -and will continue to fight -but this is only the beginning of "the fight" -otherwise called the great tribulation.

Israel -as a WHOLE -especially the HOUSE of ISRAEL (though the HOUSE of Judah will have trouble throughout) -are the first causualties(Isaiah 10)-though only partly due to radical Islam! THEN -the Islamic nations (king of the south) will fall to the EU when a "king of fierce countenance" gains control(king of the north). THEN Russia/China, et al, will all but destroy the EU -pursuing them to the holy land -they'll all be gathered to war with each other in Meggido -but will turn to fight the returning Christ -who will destroy them.

That's the rest of future history until Christ returns -rather condensed, and I know to some it would seem very unlikely, but I will post the explanation and extensive biblical references later -I'm going to get some munchies.

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Eden
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This is a satellite photo of The Hejaz which is the northwest shore of Arabia. It can be seen that at the northwest top of The Hejaz, the Arabian peninsula approaches closely to the south portion of the Sinai peninsula:

 -

The Abram-Hagar Ishmaelites lived in the wilderness of Paran, which was the south portion of the Sinai peninsula.

Genesis 21
20 And God was with the lad {Ishmael}; and he grew and dwelle in the wilderness, and became an archer.

21 And he {Ishmael}dwelled in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

As the population of the Ishmaelites grew in the Sinai peninsula, the Ishmaelites almost certainly sailed across from the wilderness of Paran to the north end of The Hejaz and they settled The Hejaz as far south as Medinah and Mecca by seaport Jiddah (Jeddah), as shown in the satellite photo.

That makes Islam an Abram Hagar Ishmaelite counter-religion, which was created for the sole purpose of becoming the Prince of Ezekiel 40-48 who is destined to rule over the nations of the earth in the millennium period.

The Catholic church, by comparison to Abram Hagar Ishmael Islam, is merely an offshoot from Biblical Christianity, like other sects of Christianity, howbeit a large one.

But the coming fight is NOT between the Japheth Italian Roman Pope and Abraham Sarah Isaac Jesus.

The current and coming fight is between Abram Hagar Ishmael Mohamet of Hejaz-Mecca and between Abraham Sarah Isaac Jesus of Nazareth, not the Japheth Pope.

with love, eden

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oneinchrist
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Hi again Scyth,
I think that my misunderstanding of your initial post was due to the fact that it seemed to me that you mixed messages of symbolism with messages of literalism. In your response to me it appeared much more clear to me the idea that you are conveying and the "vision" that you have in your mind of end-time events. I see that I share common views with you. I also agree that Pauls words "sitting as God in the temple of God" could be metaphor language for a counterfeit Christ(which is to be taken with literal application as to man errecting a false representation of the true).....but not that this man is actually sitting in the real temple of God which is "us"(the believers in Christ Jesus). Now I think I understand you. Thanks for the clarification. If I am amiss please let me know.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Eden
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Hi, Keith. Eden had said
quote:
In the Old Testament, the word "desolate" always meant "without inhabitant".
And then you said to Eden
quote:
How do you get that out of the definition which you yourself supplied?

Strong's Concordance
8074 shamem, a primitive root; to stun (or intransitively, grow numb), i.e. devastate or (figuratively) stupefy (both usually in a passive sense):--make amazed, be astonied, (be an) astonish(ment), (be, bring into, unto, lay, lie, make) desolate, places), be destitute, destroy (self), (lay, lie, make) waste, wonder.

Okay, note in the following verses how desolate is tied together with without inhabitant.

Isaiah 5:9
In mine ears said the LORD of hosts, Of a truth many houses shall be desolate, even great and fair, without inhabitant.

Isaiah 6:11
Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

Jeremiah 2:15
The young lions roared upon him, and yelled, and they made his land waste: his cities are burned without inhabitant.

Jeremiah 33:10
Thus saith the LORD; Again there shall be heard in this place, which ye say shall be desolate without man and without beast, even in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, that are desolate, without man and without inhabitant, and without beast.

So let’s look at Strong’s Concordance to see what word this “desolate” or “waste” is:

Isaiah 5:9 In mine ears 0241 [said] the LORD 03068 of hosts 06635, Of a truth 03808 many 07227 houses 01004 shall be desolate 8047 [even] great 01419 and fair 02896, without inhabitant 03427 .

There it is, desolate 8047, joined to “without inhabitant”.

Jer 33:10 Thus saith 0559 the LORD 03068; Again there shall be heard 08085 in this place 04725, which ye say 0559 [shall be] desolate 02720 without man 0120 and without beast 0929, [even] in the cities 05892 of Judah 03063, and in the streets 02351 of Jerusalem 03389, that are desolate 08074 , without man 0120, and without inhabitant 03427 , and without beast 0929,

There it is, desolate 8047, joined to “without inhabitant”.

Keith, regarding your posts, your posts contain a lot of text paragraphs, but the paragraphs contain few, if any, links to scriptures, and that always concerns me.

Now, I don’t hear Papal Rome threatening to wipe Israel of the map and push Israel into the sea? But I have heard Ishmaelite Mecca Islam, through the Islamic Persian Ahmajinedad make those threats.

And in the 20th century and in our current 21st century, I have not heard Papal Rome threatening to kill those cross-loving Christians? But I have heard the Persian Islamic Ahmajinedad make those threats?

Papal Rome is not a threat to Israel to which the Prince must come soon. Ishmaelite Islam is a threat to Israel to which the Prince must soon come.

And Keith, you said the following about a Pope who was killed in 1798 and how that was a “death blow” to the Papacy?
quote:
Without question then, the church of Rome received a deadly blow to the head in the year 1798. The Pope, the head of the church, was removed from his throne and died as a prisoner in exile. The government of the church of Rome was no more. These things are factual events in history, which fulfill this prophecy exactly.
Keith, the atrocities committed in the Papacy and the deaths and the intrigues have been going on for centuries, with the friends of European kings being appointed Pope eventhough the friend was not even a Christian, and the debauchery going on in the Papal Vatican, which, when Martyn Luther saw it, he protested and started the Prostestant movement.

A Pope dying in 1798 is minor compared to the historical atrocities of the Papacy. In the year 1798, Catholic France of Napoleon Bonapate invaded Egypt, and 3 years later in 1801 Christian England took Egypt away from the French. If there was anything WILD going on in 1798, it wasn’t the death of the Pope in 1798 but it was Napoleon taking Islamic Egypt in 1798.

Islam is the sworn enemy of Israel and of those cross-loving Christians. Roman Papal Catholicism has killed its Christians in its time, but in the 20th and 21st centuries, Papal Rome isn’t threatening Israel and isn’t threatening to kill Christians.

The Bible says that the fight is between Ishmael of the flesh and Isaac of the spirit. Eversince Ishmael was expelled from the family camp, it has been iabout who will be the Prince of Ezekiel 40-48.

Will it be Abram-Hagar Ishmael Mohamet with his ally Lucifer-Satan disguised as Allah, or will it be Abraham-Sarah Isaac-Jesus with his ally the LORD God of Israel? Which one of these two will be the Prince of Ezekiel 40-48?

But the Pope has nothing to do with this battle and is at best and is a mere sideshow at this point, just like Buddhism or Hinduism or like Mormonism.

Galatians 4
24 Which things are an allegory, because these are the two covenants; the one from mount Sinai, which engenders bondage, which is Hagar.

25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answeres to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

25 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Romans 9
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Mecca-Medina guarded the south end of The Hejaz, which is the Red Sea coast of northwest Arabia. That is Ishmaelite country. Islam was created by Ishmael around 630 A.D., with the help of Lucifer-Satan, and plagerized from the Old Testament of the God of Israel, and lied and said that Abram tried to sacrifice Ishmael on mount Moriah instead of Isaac.

Islam is the counter-religion created by Lucifer-Satan for the sole purpose of making the prophet Mahomet the Prince of Ezekiel 40-48:

Matthew 4
8 Again, the devil took him {Jesus} up into an exceeding high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them;

9 And he {the devil} said to him, All these things will I give you, if you wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then said Jesus to him, Get you hence, Satan: for it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.

Jesus didn’t make that deal with Lucifer-Satan; but someone else did, and it wasn’t the Pope.

with love, eden

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scythewieldor
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Dear friend,
Indeed, I should be glad.
I read the Bible from the point of view that the Holy Spirit delivered to men exactly as it was given to Him of the Father and the Son. I believe the Father and the Son never lost track of the words they were giving to the Spirit, and the Spirit never changed those words as He handed them to men.
I believe that the Father and the Son are intelligent enough to say exactly what they mean, that they have the integrity to mean exactly what they say, and they love us enough to make things as clear as possible. (We are but flesh. We could mess up a steel ball bearing with a rubber hammer.)
When Paul says that those who work together with Christ withhold/possess/let/keep down all things, it is the Holy Spirit telling us what the Father and the Son said about the authority of the ministers of God. All things means all things.
I believe Paul was reminding the Thessalonians that he had already told them who kept all things down. It was the same people that he told the Corinthians kept all things down- those who worked together with Christ.
The Bible teaches us that, even though the rest of the new believers left Jerusalem under persecution, the Apostles stayed there.
The secret of lawlessness was a good way to speak of the goings-on in the Jewish temple at that time.
The persecution would be a possible way to render "falling away". The Greek word, apostasia, is the feminine form for the word that means divorce. See Strong's <646>.
Remember that, in Romans 7:1-4, Jesus was recognized as the husband of the Jews before His crucifixion. After His resurrection the offer of betrothal was made to the Jews and they refused it.
A report that I can not verify by scripture says that James (not the brother of John) was in Jerusalem until the very last few years. He was called "Camel knees" because of the callouses that developed from his time in prayer. If the story of James is true, his murder by Ananus may have, actually, triggered the war that the Jews were about to have with Rome. It was at that time that John of Gischala, Simon bar Gorias (an Edomite like Herod the Great), and other wicked men rose to fight over and take control of the Jewish temple.
Thus, we have a possible pre-AD70 rendering for the falling away, those who kept down, and the man of sin/lawless one that was to be revealed.
My previous post alludes to a possible future rendering.
Today, we are the Temple of God, and there will never be another building made with hands to offer men a copy of us upon which to hope.
quote:
Heb 8:1 ¶ Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 ¶ The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

God, Himself, destroyed the thing that was made after the pattern of things in heaven which were shown to Moses. He ripped the veil.
If He were to build it, again, He would be undoing the teaching of the Holy Ghost.

quote:
Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
This is one of those places where I believe that the Father and the Son were giving the Holy Spirit their words for Paul to write. This settles the rebuilt Jewish temple issue for me. The Jews may (and, I believe will) build another temple. It will be the center of an idolatrous activity, and it will NOT be the Temple of God though it will be presented as such.
In other words, it will be a strong delusion. The real Christians, the Temple of God who refuse to take part in this idolatry, will be counted as sheep for the slaughter all the day.
Thus, we have a destruction of the True Temple which is, actually, not the wrath of God on us. This just puts us in heaven the same way Jesus, the two olive trees, James the brother of John, and Stephen got there: we die, first.
Then, with a trumpet sound, we are gathered from one end of heaven to the other. We get on our air-walking white horses and follow Jesus back for one interesting time.
Though we face the wrath of man, we are spared the wrath of the Lamb.
This is just a possible rendering of the things I have studied using the premise that men do not have the authority to change the meanings of words given by the Holy Ghost.
Would I like to fight over it? No, dear one. I know that God's ways are past finding out. Even if I was right on most of it, I'm still so far from figuring out God that I hope to be found very humble.
He gives grace to the humble.

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oneinchrist
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Hi Scyth,
I understand that Jesus' words had meaning beyond what the Pharisees and Scribes thought because the scriptures even say so. They had not known that Jesus was speaking of Himself.

Do you believe that we are to take Paul in 2 Thess.2 the same way? not literal, but with other meaning?

I was under the understanding that people were ascribing the "abomination of desolation" to AD 70. Do you believe that AD 70 is the fullfillment of 2Thess. 2? I am a little confused about the connections you are making.

Would you clarify your last sentence in your post regarding the rapture? How are some of us being misled into a false belief of the rapture/second coming?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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scythewieldor
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Dear friends,
I want you to read Young's Literal Translation for one of the passages in question.
quote:
2 Thes 2:1 ¶ And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him,
2 that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;
3 ¶ let not any one deceive you in any manner, because—if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed—the son of the destruction,
4 who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God—the day doth not come.
5 Do ye not remember that, being yet with you, these things I said to you?
6 and now, what is keeping down <2722> ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,
7 for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down <2722> now will hinder —till he may be out of the way,
8 and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence,
9 him, whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,
10 and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,
11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
12 that they may be judged—all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness.

First of all, the son of destruction must stand in the sanctuary of God. Upon the resurrection of Jesus, the Christians are the sanctuary of God. (I always remind people that the "ye" and "your" below are second person plural. Together, we are the "ye" there.)
quote:
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

1Co 3:16 ¶ have ye not known that ye are a sanctuary of God, and the Spirit of God doth dwell in you?
17 if any one the sanctuary of God doth waste, him shall God waste; for the sanctuary of God is holy, the which ye are.

1Co 6:19 Have ye not known that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own,

Therefore, the sanctuary of God must be, either, the temple that was destroyed in 70 AD or us. Verse 17 implies that it is possible for the "us" sanctuary to be destroyed. The guy who does that, God will destroy.

Next, you will notice that "keeping down" is rendered in verse 6 and verse 7. It replaces "withholdeth in one place and letteth in another.
This is literally correct.
Who could be the one that "keepeth down"?
quote:
2 Cor 6:1 ¶ We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing <2722> all things.

Unfortunately, not even Young's used the literal in this last passage. That is the reason I supplied the Strong's number.
Those who work together with Christ withhold/keep down/possess/letteth all things. If we are those who work together with Christ, we are the withholders, now.
If we are looking past AD 70 for a fulfillment of the 2 Thes 2 prophecy, we are the ones who will be taken out (not by the kind of "rapture" you've been taught) so that the one who destroys the "us" temple may be revealed and destroyed.
How do you like them apples?

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oneinchrist
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Hi Keith,
I have to admit that I share much of the same sentiment as you concerning the "little horn".

I believe that the "man of sin" that Paul speaks of is a man who has gained much credibility in the eyes of the world and becomes the most religious influence in the world. I do not believe that he seizes his power(as some end-time movies seem to suggest), but is given his power by others who highly regard him. On a final note it would not surprise me to see this man who exalts himself above all measure to be a product of the richest religion in the world.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Keith
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quote:
In the Old Testament, the word "desolate" always meant "without inhabitant".
How do you get that out of the definition which you yourself supplied?

Strong's Concordance
8074 shamem, a primitive root; to stun (or intransitively, grow numb), i.e. devastate or (figuratively) stupefy (both usually in a passive sense):--make amazed, be astonied, (be an) astonish(ment), (be, bring into, unto, lay, lie, make) desolate, places), be destitute, destroy (self), (lay, lie, make) waste, wonder.

I do not argue that what happened in 70 AD is no fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the abomination of desolation. I simply do not think it is the only fulfillment. Jesus connects it with the giving of the gospel to the entire world, and the end of the same.

The church of Rome took away the ministry of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary from countless millions by hiding this truth under her false doctrines and system of worship, which she forced upon all. She is still doing the same today to all those who accept the same. It is estimated that she is responsible for the persecution and death of countless millions of God’s people over the centuries.

In a side note, the nation of Israel, and there system of worship through the temple at Jerusalem, were desolate years before the Romans destroyed the same. Christ pronounced so, before He was crucified.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

After the Jews crucified Christ, their religion and temple were empty, desolate, without meaning or purpose, and void of the presence of God. This is why the curtain in the temple was tron from top to bottom revealing the holy place to the view of all, it was no longer holy, God was not their.

Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Perhaps the following quotes from various protestant reformers regarding the pope, and the church of Rome would be of interest to you.

CHAP. 13 TESTIMONY OF THE REFORMERS


Unless otherwise specified, all of the following quotes are taken from the four volume series THE PROPHETIC FAITH OF OUR FATHERS by Le Roy Edwin Froom.


HILARY OF POITIERS (300-368)

“ He [Hilary] begins by speaking the blessings of peace, which the Christians of that day could neither enjoy nor promote, beset as they were by the forerunners of Antichrist…….. They bear themselves not as bishops of Christ but as priests of Antichrist. This is not random abuse, but sober recognition of the fact, stated by St. John, that there are many Antichrists. For these men assume the cloak of piety, and pretend to preach the Gospel, with the one object of inducing others to deny Christ. It was the misery and folly of the day that men endeavoured to promote the cause of God by human means and the favor of the world. Hilary asks bishops, who believe in their office, wether the Apostles had secular support when by their preaching they converted the greater part of mankind……
“ The church seeks for secular support, and in so doing insults Christ by the implication that His support is insufficient. She in her turn holds out the threat of exile and prison. It was her endurance of these that drew men to her; now she imposes her faith by violence. She craves for favors at the hand of her communicants; once it was her consecration that she braved the threatening of persecutors. Bishops in exile spread the faith; now it is she that exiles bishops. She boasts that the world loves her; the worlds hatred was the evidence that she was Christ’s……. The time of Antichrist, disguised as an angel of light, has come. The true Christ is hidden from almost every mind and heart. Antichrist is now obscuring the truth that he may assert falsehood hereafter.” (E. W. Watson, Introduction to Hilary of Poitiers, in NPNF, 2d series, vol. 9, pp. lii, liii.) Vol. 1, p. 409.


ARNULF bishop of Orleans during the pontificate of John XV (985-996)

“What shall we say, revered fathers? To what blemish shall we attribute the fact that the first of the churches of God, once so lifted up and crowned with glory and honour, should be brought down so low and tarnished with shame and infamy? If we severely expect gravity of manners, purity of life, joined to sacred and profane learning, in every man who is ordained to the Episcopate; what ought not to be exacted in the case of him who aspires to be the teacher of all bishops. How, then, is it that those have been put in possession of that most high See, who were not worthy to fill any place whatsoever in the priesthood? What, in your eyes, reverend fathers, is that Pontiff, seated on a throne, and clad in purple and gold? If he hath not charity, and be puffed up with his learning only, he is Antichrist sitting in the temple of God, and demeaning himself as a god; he is like unto a statue in that temple, like a dumb idol, and to ask of him a reply, is to appeal to a figure of stone.” ( This English translation is from Villemain, op. cit., vol. 1 pp.175,176.) Vol. 1 chap. 22 p. 541&542

“ Let us imitate the great church of Africa, which, in reply to the pretensions of the Roman Pontiff, deemed it inconceivable that the Lord should have invested any one person with his own plenary prerogative of judicature, and yet have denied it to the great congregations of his priests assembled in council in different parts of the world.” ( Quoted in Schaff, History, vol. 4, p. 291.) Vol. 1 chap. 22 p. 542


EBERHARD II, archbishop of Salzburg (1200-1246)

“ Under the title of Pontifex Maximus, we discern, unless we are blind, a most savage wolf, with the garment of a shepherd; the Roman priests [flamines] have arms against all Christians; made great by daring, by deceiving, by bringing wars after wars, they slaughter the sheep, they cut them off, they drive away peace and harmony from the earth, they stir up internal wars, domestic insurrections fro below, day by day they weaken more and more the energies of all, so that they revile the heads of all, they devour all, they reduce all to slaveery.” (Translated from Ioannes Aventinus, Annales Boiorum Libri Septem, p. 683.) Vol. 1 chap. 32 p. 799


“ Both true and false concepts of the continuance of Rome powerfully influenced not only churchmen but statesmen, but the position taken by Eberhard in 1240-that the breakup of Rome gave rise to a group of smaller kingdoms, among whom afterward came up the relgio- political power of the historical Papacy as thye Little Horn-became the standard interpretation of fourteenth-century Wyclif in Britain, then of sixteenth-century Luther and most of his associates, and next of Cranmer, Knox, and the bulk of British Reformers. Practically all the post-Reformation writers on the Continent and in Britain and America declared the same. Even the Jewish expositer Don Isaac Abravanel of Spain, in 1496, made a like explanation.
This reformation view was the sort of belief which helped to nerve men to withstand the powerful forces under the command of the Papacy, and to go to the stake rather than yield to her spiritual despotism; for Protestant martyrs dared not obey her injunctions or follow her apostasies, and thus incur the displeasure of Heaven. Therefore they no longer feared her anathemas.” (THE PROPHETIC FAITH OF OUR FATHERS, by Froom, vol. 1, chap. 32, p. 806)


FRANCESCO PETRARCH, Poet (1304-1374) Concerning the church of Rome.

“ Vengeaunce must fall on thee, thow filthie *****
Of Babilon, thow breaker of Christ’s fold,
That from acorns, and from the water colde,
Art riche become with making many poore.
Thow treason’s neste that in thie harte dost holde
Of cankard malice, and of mischief more
Than pen can wryte, or may with tongue be tolde,
Slave to delights that chastity hath solde;
For wyne and ease which settith all thie store
Uppon whoredome and none other lore,
In thye pallais of strompetts yonge and olde
Theare walks Plentie, and Belzebub thye Lorde;
Guydes thee and them, and doth thye raigne uphold:
It is but late, as writing will recorde,
That poore thow weart without lande or goolde;
Yet how hathe golde and pryde, by one accorde,
In wickedness so spreadd thie lyf abrode,
That it dothe stinke before the face of God.”
( Francesco Petrarch, Sonnet CV, translated by Wyatt (?), in The Sonnets, Triumphs, and Other Poems of Petrarch, pp. 135, 136.)


“ Thou Babylon, seated on the wild banks of the Rhone, shall I call thee famous or infamous, O harlot, who hast committed harlotry with the kings of the earth? Truly thou art the same that the holy Evangelist saw in spirit, the same, I say, and not another, sitting upon many waters. Either literally, being surrounded by three rivers, or, in the profusion of this world’s goods, among which thou sittest wanton and secure, unmindful of eternal riches; or, in the sense laid down by him that beheld thee, that the waters on which you the harlot sit are peoples and nations and languages. Recognize thine own features. A women clothed in purple and scarlet, decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, full of abomination in the impurity of her fornication-Dost thou not know thyself, O Babylon? Unless perhaps what is written upon her forehead is wrong, Babylon the great, you indeed are Babylon the little.” ( Translated from Petrarch, Epistolarum Sine Titulo, Liber, letter headed Babylonem Gallicam Describit, in Opera, vol. 2, p. 807. )


WALTER BRUTE fourteenth-century British or Welsh layman and Lollard scholar.

“ Item, The said Walter hath oftentimes said, and commonly avouched, that the Pope is Antichrist, and a seducer of the people, and utterly against the Law and life of Christ,” (“Proceedings in the trial of Walter Brut for Heresy, Etc.,” original Latin in Registrum Johannis Trefnant, Episcopi Herefordensis, p. 279; translated in Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, p. 543.)

“ If the high Bishop of Rome calling himself the Servant of the Servants of God, and the Chief Vicar of Christ in this World, do make and maintain many laws contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ; then is he of those that have come in Christ’s name, saying, I am Christ, and have seduced many a one, by the Testimony of our Savior in Math. Chap. 24. And the Idol of desolation sitting in the Temple of God and taking away from him the continual sacrifice for a time, times, and half a time, which Idol must be revealed to the Christian people by the testimony of Daniel. Whereof Christ speaketh in the Gospel; When ye shall see the abomination of desolation that was told of by Daniel the Prophet, standing in the holy place; let him that readeth understand.” (Registrum, p.287; Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, p. 545.)

“ And sitting in the Temple of God, doth advance himself above all things that is called God, or whatsoever is worshipped, by the testimony of Paul to the Thess. 2 Epistle, Chap. 2. And in the defection or falling away shall the man of sin be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth….He is also besides, The Beast ascending up out of the earth, having two horns like unto a Lamb, but he speaketh like a Dragon, and as the cruel Beast ascending up out of the Sea, whose Power shall continue 42 months. He worketh the things that he hath given to the Image of the Beast. And he compelled Small and Great, Rich and Poor, Free-men and Bond-slaves, to worship the beast, and to take his mark in their Forehead or their Hands, Apoc. Chap. 13. And thus by the testimony of all these places is the chief Antichrist upon the Earth, and must be slain with the sword of God’s Word, and cast with the Dragon, the cruel Beast and the false prophet that hath seduced the Earth, into the lake of fire and brimstone to be tormented world without end.” (Registrum, p. 288; Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, pp. 545, 546.)

“ If the city of Rome do allow his Traditions, and do disallow Christ’s holy Commandments, and Christ’s Doctrine, that it may confirm his Traditions; then is she Babylon the Great, or the Daughter of Babylon, and the Great ***** sitting upon many waters, with whom the Kings of the Earth have committed Fornication, and the Inhabitants of the earth are become drunken with the Wine of her Harlotry lying open to Bawdry. With whose spiritual Whoredom, Enchantments, Witchcrafts, and Simon Magus Merchandises, the whole round world is infected and seduced; saying in her heart, I sit as a Queen, and Widow I am not, neither shall I see Sorrow and mourning. Yet is she ignorant that within a little while shall come the day of her destruction and ruine by the Testimony of the Apoc. Chap. 17. Because that from the time of the continual Sacrifice was taken away, and that abomination of Desolation placed, there be passed 1290 days, by the Testimony of Daniel [chap. Xii.], and the Chronicles added to agree to the same. And the holy City also hath been trodden under foot of the Heathen, for forty two months, and the Woman was nourished up in the Wilderness (unto which she fled for fear of the face of the Serpent) during 1260 days, or else for a time, times, and half a time, which is all one. All these things be manifest by the Testimony of the Apocalyps, and the Chronicles thereto agreeing.” (Registrum, p. 288; Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, p. 546.)


POPES ARE ANTICHRIST BECAUSE THEY ARE PRIEST-KINGS.-
“ Seeing then that the Bishops of Rome do say that they are the High Priests; they say also therein that they are Kings, because they say that they have the Scriptural Sword pertaining to their Priesthood, and the corporal Sword which agreeth for a Kings State. So is it plain, that really and in very deed, they say, That they are Christs, albeit that expressly they be not called Christs. Now that they come in the name of Christ it is manifest, because they say that they are his principal Vicars in this World, ordained of Christ specially for the Government of the Christian Church. Therefore, seeing they say, that really and in very deed they are Christs, and the chief friends of Christ: If they make and justifie many Laws contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then it is plain that they themselves in earth are the principal Antichrists, because there is no worse plague and pestilence, than a familiar enemy. And if in secret they be against Christ, and yet in open appearance they say that they are his friends, they are so much more the meet to seduce and deceive the Christian people.” (Registrum, pp. 300, 301; Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, p. 550.)


SIR JOHN OLDCASTLE 1360-1417

“But as touching the Pope and his spirituality, I owe them neither suit nor service, forsomuch as I know him by the scriptures to be the great Antichrist, the Son of Perdition, the open Adversary of God, and the Abomination standing in the holy place.” (Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, p. 636.)

“ My belief is (as I said afore) that all the scriptures of the sacred Bible are true. All this is grounded upon them I believe throughly. For I know it is God’s pleasure that I should do so. But in your lordly Laws and idle determinations have I no belief. For ye be no part of Christ’s holy Church, as your open deeds do shew: But ye are very Antichrists, obstinately set against His holy Law and Will….
“ And let all men consider well this, That Christ was meek, and merciful; the Pope is proud, and a tyrant; Christ was poor and forgave, the Pope is rich and a malitious Man-slayer, as his daily acts do prove him. Rome is the very nest of Antichrist, and out of that nest come all of the Disciples of him. Of whom, Prelates, Priests, and Monks, are the body, these pil’d Friers are the tail, which covereth his most filthy part.” (Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, pp.640, 641.)


JOHN HUSS, OR HUS ( 1369-1415) “I beseech you in Christ Jesus, with all your fellow members of the University, to be prepared for a battle; for the reconnoiters of Antichrist have already begun, and the fight will soon follow. The Goose also must needs flap his wings against the wings of Behemoth, and against his tail, which always conceals the abomination of the beast Antichrist……. The Lord shall destroy the head and the tail- that is, the Pope and his prophets, masters, doctors, priests, who under the false pretext of sanctity conceal the abomination of the beast. Pray, what greater abomination can their be than a harlot who should parade herself and offer herself publicly? Yes, there is still greater abomination of the beast sitting in a place of honour and offering himself for worship to all comers, as though he were God: ready to sell whatever a man may wish to buy in matters spiritual. Yea, he sells what he does not possess. Woe be to me, then, if I shall not preach, weep, and write against such an abomination!” (The Letters of John Hus, edited by Herbert B. Workman and R. Martin Pope, Letter XXVI, pp. 118, 119.)

“ Surely now the wickedness, iniquity, and baseness of Antichrist has been revealed in the Poope and his associates in the Council: now the faithful servants of God can understand the meaning of the Saviour’s words, When ye shall see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet,….he that readeth, let him understand. Verily ‘a great abomination’ is pride, avarice, and simony: ‘in a place apart’- that is,dignity which lacks modesty, love, and other virtues; and this is whatwe clearly mark in those who win office and dignity. Would that I were allowed to point out their wickedness, in order that the faithful servants od God might beware of them! Gladly would I do so; but I am trusting that God will raise up others after me, braver men than there are to-day, who shall better reveal the wickedness of Antichrist and lay down their lives for the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ, who will grant eternal joy both to you and to me. Amen. I write this letter in prison, on the day of St. John Baptist, as I lie bound in chains, remembering that St. John also was beheaded in prison for the sake of God’s truth.” (Ibid., p. 258.)

GIROLAMO SAVONAROLA (1452-1498) “The Roman church is full of simony and vileness…. I visualized a black cross over Babylon-Rome with the inscription: Wrath of the Lord. And it rained upon her swords and knives, lances and weapons of all kinds, as well as hailstones and brimstones in a terrible thunderstorm in deepest gloom. And I saw another cross of gold which reached from the sky over Jerusalem to the earth with the inscription: Mercy of God. And here was full sunshine. And on the strength of vision I declare again, that the Church must reform herself, and that very soon because God is angry.” (Savonarola, Auswahl, pp. 120, 121.)

“ Fly from Rome, for Babylon signifies confusion, and Rome hath confused all the Scriptures, confused all vices together, confused everything. Fly, then, from Rome, and come to repentance.” (Villari, op. cit., p.413, citing Lenten Sermon (1496), for Wednesday after fifth Sunday.)


“ ‘Come here thou ribald Church. The Lord saith: I gave thee beautiful vestments, but thou hast made idols of them. Thou hast dedicated the sacred vessels to vainglory, the sacraments to simony; thou hast become a shameless harlot in thy lusts; thou art lower than a beast, thou art a monster of Solomon, and soliciteth the world; he that hath gold is made welcome and may do as he will….. O prostitute Church…… thou hast multiplied thy fornications in Italy, in France, in Spain, and all other parts. Behold, I will put forth My hand, saith the Lord. I will smite thee, thou infamous wretch.” (Villari, op. cit., pp. 517, 518, citing Lenten Sermon XXII (1497), afterward suppressed by the Congregation of the Index.)

MARTIN LUTHER (1483-1546) “I will send you these compositions of mine, that you may judge whether I am right in my divination when I assert, that the true Antichrist mentioned by St. Paul reigns in the court of Rome and is, as I think I can prove, a greater pest than the Turks.” (Dr. Martin Luthers Sammtliche Schriften edited by Johann Georg Walch, vol. 15, col. 2430; translated in Waddington, History of the Reformation, vol. 1, p. 201. Hereafter Luther’s Schriften, without other specification, will mean this Walch edition.)

“I am sifting the pontifical decrials with a view to my disputation [at Leipsig]; and, to whisper to you the truth, I am not determined whether the Pope be Antichrist himself or only his apostle, so cruelly is Christ (which is the truth) corrupted and crucified by him in his decrials. I am in perfect torture when I consider that the people of Christ are thus mocked, under the pretence of the laws and name of Christ.” (Luther, Schriften, vol. 21a, col. 156; translated in Waddington, History of the Reformation, vol. 1, p. 201.)

“I am practically concerned, and can hardly doubt any more, that the Pope is really the Antichrist, whom the world expects according to a general belief, because everything so exactly corresponds to the way of his life, action, words, and commandments.” (Translated from Luther, Schriften, vol. 21a, col. 234. In all translation a faithful, literal rendering, rather than a free, literary translation, is followed.)

“ We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist, against whose deceit and vileness all is permitted for the salvation of souls. Personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist.” (Luther, Schriften, vol. 15, col. 1693.)

“ I cry aloud on behalf of liberty and conscience, and I proclaim with confidence that no kind of law can with any justice be imposed on Christians, whether by men or angels, except so far as they themselves will; for we are free from all. If such laws are imposed on us, we ought so to endure them as still to preserve the consciousness of our liberty. We ought to know and steadfastly to protest that a wrong is being done to that liberty, though we may bear and even glory in that wrong; taking care neither to justify the tyrant nor to murmur against the tyranny. ‘Who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? (1 Pet. 3:13.) All things work together for good to the elect of God. Since, however, there are but few who understand the glory of baptism and the happiness of Christian liberty, or who can understand them for the tyranny of the Pope- I for my part will set free my own mind and deliver my conscience, by declaring aloud to the Pope and all papists, that, unless they shall throw aside all their laws and traditions, and restore liberty to the churches of Christ, and cause that liberty to be taught, they are guilty of the death of all the souls which are perishing in this wretched bondage, and that the papacy is in truth nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist. For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the Church; while he yet sits in the Church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny. It has extinguished faith, darkened the sacraments, crushed the gospel; while it has enjoined and multiplied without end its own laws, which are not only wicked and sacrilegious, but also most unlearned and barbarous.” (Luther, First Principles, pp. 196, 197 (Schriften, vol. 19. Cols. 70, 71).

“ Neither is that which Matthew hath foretold, in ch. 24, touching that Horrible Abomination (to wit) Antichrist, a less certain Signs to me then [than] the former, namely that under his Kingdome, there should be and prevail, extream blindness, the most pernicious Errors, and the highest wickednesses. All which things do most wretchedly flourish in the kingdom of the Pope, and that in the greatest impudency and tyranny that can be.” (The signs of Christ’s coming and of the Last Day, the substance of a sermon of Martin Luther, p. 6.)


“ Oh, Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us thy day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan in Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the Apostle Paul wrote (2 Thess. 2:3,4) that he will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God,- that Man of Sin, that Son of perdition. What else is papal power but sin and corruption? It leads souls to destruction under thine own name, O Lord! …. I hope the day of judgment is soon to dawn. Things can and will not become worse than they are at this time. The papal see is practicing iniquity to its heights. He suppresses the Law of God and exalts his commandments above the commandments of God.” (Dr. Martin Luthers sammtliche Werke (Erlangen edition), vol. 21, p.339.)


PHILIPP MELANCHTHON (1497-1560) “ 18. Since it is certain that the pontiffs and the monks have forbidden marriage, it is most manifest, and true without any doubt, that the Roman Pontiff, with his whole order and kingdom, is very Antichrist.” (Translated from Melancthon, Disputationes, No. 56, “De Matrimonio,” in Opera (Corpus Reformation), vol. 12, col. 535.)

“19. Likewise in Thess. II, Paul clearly says that the man of sin will rule in the church exalting himself above the worship of God, etc.
“20. But it is certain that the popes do rule in the church, and under the title of the church in defending idols.
“21. Wherefore I affirm that no heresy hath arisen, nor indeed shall be, with which these descriptions of Paul can more truly and certainly accord and agree than with this pontifical kingdom….
“25. The prophet Daniel also attributes these two things to Antichrist; namely, that he shall place an idol in the temple, and worship [it] with gold and silver; and that he shall not honor women.
“26 That both of them belong to the Roman Pontiff, who does not clearly see? The idols are clearly the impious masses, the worship of saints, and the statues which are exhibited in gold and silver that they may be worshiped.” (Ibid., cols. 535, 536.)

NICOLAUS VON AMSDORF (1483-1565) He [the Antichrist] will be revealed and come to naught before the last day, so that every man shall comprehend and recognize that the pope is the real, true Antichrist and not the vicar of Christ…. Therefore those who consider the pope and his bishops as Christian shepherds and bishops are deeply in error, but even more are those who believe that the Turk is the Antichrist. Because the Turk rules outside the church and does not sit in the holy place, nor does he seek to bear the name of Christ but is an open antagonist of Christ and His church. This does not need to be revealed, but it is clear and evident because he persecutes Christians openly and not as the pope does, secretly under the form of godliness.” (Nicolaus von Amsdorf, Funff furnemliche und gewisse Zeichen, sig. A4v.)

‘ This beast we know is the Roman Empire, which carries and supports the red Babylonian ***** , which is the Papacy. The mark of the beast is the canons, the decrees and ceremonies of the Pope, and all ecclesiastical traditions concerning food, drink, and dress, singing, reading, and other childish things which have nothing to do with, nor belong to, the kingdom of God, which is true Christianity.” (Ibid., sig. D1r.-D2r.)


MATTHIAS FLAGIUS (Vlacich) (1520-1575) The sixth and last reason for our separation from the pope and his followers be this: By many writings of our church, by the Divinely Inspired Word, by prophecies concerning the future and by the special characteristics of the papacy, it has been profusely and thoroughly proved that the pope with his prelates and clergy is the real true great Antichrist, that his kingdom is the real Babylon, a never ceasing fountain and a mother of all abominable idolatry. (Flacius, Etliche Hochwichtige Ursachen und Grunde, warumb das sich alle Christen von dem Antichrist…..absondern sollen.)

ANDREAS MUSCULUS (1514-1581) ………And today we see and hear how the precious word has taken its course straight towards midnight and how it shall reach further and further till it comes to the very last hamlet of this world…..[On Matt. 24.9-they shall deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you] Whereas this was first fulfilled under the persecution of emperors….. Now since 800 years the pope of Rome from the beginning of his Antichristian kingdom has started to slay, to kill, and to destroy. Many a learned man, many pious Christians who have comprehended this abomination, protested against it, and refused to worship the Bride of Babylon, were put to death by him and exterminated.
(Translated from Andreas Musculus, Vom tungsten Tage.)

HULDREICH (ULRICH) ZWINGLI (1484-1531) …….Not because they do any injustice to the Papacy, for I know that in it works the might and power of the Devil, that is, of the Antichrist. (Huldreich Zwingli, Hauptschriften [Principal Works], vol. 7, p. 135.)

If we would live Christlike, everybody would fall away from Popedom, because they would recognize that nothing else than deceitful pomp stands behind it. [In this spirit] everything undertaken toward its fall will succeed. And I request that we break the might of the Papacy not by the power of hate, but by the power of love to God and to our neighbor. (Ibid., p. 137.)

You are protecting all this disorder, this most wicked profession, this antichristian Papacy, although you see the bright shining light and perceive that all nations rejoice that the wickedness of the harlot, who deceived everybody, has been revealed. (Ibid., p. 199.)

The Papacy has to be abolished or it conceals itself until it suppresses again the gospel. But by no other means can it be more thoroughly routed than by the word of God (2 Thess. 2), because as soon as the world receives this [the word of God] in the right way, it will turn away from the pope without compulsion. (Ibid., p. 205.)

HEINRICH BULLINGER (1504-1575) The scarlet woman of Revelation 17 is “the Romish church” and Rome the seat of the Beast. (Bullinger, A Hundred Sermons upon the Apocalips, preface; see also his Decades, decade 4, sermon 7, pp. 273 ff.)

The Pope is Antichrist because he usurps the keys of Christ and His kingly and priestly authority. (Ibid., sermon 6, p. 44.)

WILLIAM TYNDALE (1484-1536) And [they] have set up that great idol, the ***** of Babylon, antichrist of Rome, whom they call pope; and have conspired against all commonwealths, and have made them a several kingdom, wherein it is lawful, unpunished, to work all abomination. (Tyndale, The Obedience of a Christian Man, in Works, vol. 1, p. 191.)

The apostles were clear-eyed, and espied antichrist at once, and put him to flight, and weeded out his doctrine quickly. But when charity waxed cold, and the preachers began to seek themselves, and to admit glory and honour of riches, then antichrist disguised himself after the fashion of a true apostle, and preached Christ wilily, bringing in now this tradition, and now that, to darken the doctrine of Christ; and set up innumerable ceremonies, and sacraments, and imagery, giving them significations at the first; but at the last, the significations laid apart, preached the work as an holy deed, to justify and put away sin, and to save the soul, that men should put their trust in works, and in whatsoever was unto his glory and profit; and under the name of Christ ministered Christ out of all together, and became head of the congregation himself.

The bishop of Rome made a law of his own, to rule his church by, and put Christ’s out of the way. All the bishops swear unto the bishop of Rome, and all curates unto the bishops; but all forswear Christ and his doctrine.

But seeing John took a sign of the last day, that he saw antichrist begin, how nigh ought we to think that it is, which, after eight hundred years reigning in prosperity, see it decay again, and his falsehood to be disclosed, and him to be slain with the spirit of the mouth of Christ. (Tyndale, The Exposition of the First Epistle of St. John, in Works, vol. 2, pp. 179, 180.)

Now though the bishops of Rome and his sects give Christ these names, yet in that they rob him of the effect, and take the significations of his names unto themselves, and make of him but an hypocrite, as they themselves be, they be the right antichrists, and deny both the Father and Son. (Ibid., p. 183.)

NICHOLAS RIDLEY (1500-1555) Yea, what fellowship hath Christ with Antichrist? Therefore is it not lawful to bear the yoke with papists. ‘ Come forth from among them, and separate yourselves from them, saith the Lord’.
(“Conferences…Between Nicholas Ridley and Hugh Latimer,” in Ridley, Works, p. 124.)

I acknowledge in no point that usurped supremacy of Rome, and therefore contemn and utterly despise all authority coming from him. (Ibid., p. 258.)

The head, under Satan, of all mischief is Antichrist and his brood; and the same is he which is the Babylonical beast, The beast is he whereupon the ***** sitteth. The ***** is that city, saith John in plain words, which hath empire over the kings of the earth. This ***** hath a golden cup of abominations in her hand, whereof she maketh to drink the kings of the earth, and of the wine of this harlot all nations hath drunk; yea, and kings of the earth have lain by this ***** ; and merchants of the earth, by virtue of her pleasant merchandise, have been made rich.

Now what city is there in the whole world, that when John wrote, ruled over the kings of the earth; or what city can be read of in any time, that of the city itself challenged the empire over the kings of the earth, but only the city of Rome, and that since the usurpation of that See hath grown to her full strength? And is it not read, that old and ancient writers understood Peter’s former Epistle to be written at Rome, and it to be called of him in the same Epistle, in plain terms, Babylon! BY the abominations thereof, I understand all the whole trade of the Romish religion, under the name and title of Christ, which is contrary to the only rule of all true religion, that is God’s word. (Ibid., p. 258)

The see is the seat of Satan; and the bishop of the same, that maintained the abominations thereof, is antichrist himself indeed. And for the same causes this see at this day is the same which St. John calleth is his Revelation Babylon, or the ***** of Babylon, and spiritually Sodoma and Egyptus, the mother of fornications and of the abominations upon the earth. (“Letters of Bishop Ridley,” letter 32, in Works, p. 415.)

This ***** of Babylon and the beast whereupon she doth sit maintained at this day with all violence of fire and sword, with spoil and banishment (according to Daniel’s prophecy), and finally with all falsehood, deceit, hypocrisy, and all kind of ungodliness - are as clean contrary to God’s word as darkness is unto light, or light to darkness, white to black, or black to white, or as Belial unto Christ, or Christ unto antichrist himself. (Ibid., pp. 415, 416.)

The ***** of Babylon may well for a time dally with you, and make you so drunk with the wine of her filthy stews and whoredom (as with her dispensations and promises of pardon a poena et culpa), that for drunkenness and blindness ye may think yourself safe. But be ye assured,… the living Lord shall try the matter by the fire, and judge it according to his word….For he that is partner with them in their whoredom and abominations, must also be partner with them of their plagues, and on the latter day shall be thrown with them into the lake burning with brimstone and unquenchable fire. Thus fare ye well, my lords all. I pray God give you understanding of his blessed will and pleasure, and make you to believe and embrace the truth. Amen. (Ibid., p. 418.)


JOHN PHILPOT (1516-1555) St John in the Apocalypse telleth us plainly, that none of those who are written in the book of life do receive the mark of the beast, which is, of the papistical synagogue, either in their foreheads or else in their hands, that is, apparently or obediently….Finally, in the 18th of the Apocalypse, God biddeth us plainly to depart from this Babylonical synagogue, and not to be partakers of her trespass. St Paul to the Thessalonians commandeth us, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to ‘withdraw ourselves from every brother that walketh inordinately, and not according to the institution which he hath received of him.’

Ponder therefore well, good brethren and sisters, these scriptures, which be written for your erudition and reformation; whereof one iota is not written in vain; which be utterly against all counterfeit collusion to be used of us with the papists in their fantastical religion. (Philpot, Examinations and Writings, letter1, p. 222.)

JOHN BRADFORD (1510-1555) Ah, wretches then that we be, if we will defile either part with the rose-coloured ***** of Babylon’s filthy mass-abomination! It had been better for us never to have been washed, than so to wallow ourselves in the filthy puddle of popery: it had been better never to have known the truth, than thus to betray it. Surely, surely, let such men fear, that their ‘latter end be not worse than the beginning.’ (John Bradford in Writings [vol. 1] {Sermons, Meditations, Examinations}, vol. 1, p. 390.)

Wherefore I now am condemned and shall be burned as an heretic. For, because I will not grant the antichrist of Rome to be Christ’s vicar-general and supreme head of his church here and every where upon earth, by God’s ordinance. (Ibid., pp. 441,442.)

This bearer hath told me, that your desire is to have something sent to you concerning the usurped authority of the supremacy of the bishop of Rome, which is undoubtedly that great Antichrist, of whom the apostles do so much admonish us;………(Ibid., p. 142.)

JOHN HOOPER (1495-1555) Because God hath given this light unto my countrymen, which be all persuaded, (or else God send them to be persuaded!) that the bishop of Rome nor none other is Christ’s vicar upon the earth; it is no need to use any long or copious oration: it is so plain that it needeth no probation; the very properties of antichrist, I mean of Christ’s great and prinipal enemy, is so openly known to all men, that are not blinded with the smoke of Rome, that they know him to be the beast that John describeth in the Apocalypse. (Hooper, A Declaration of Christ and His Office, chap. 3, in Works, vol. 1[Early Writings], p. 24)

As the pope, under the title and pretence of God’s ministry, hath gotten himself not only a bishopric, but also the whole monarchy, in manner, of all Europe; a richer kingdom than any prince of the world; which never ceased from his beginning to move christian princes to most cruel and bloody war, under the cloak and mantle of God’s name. What means and craft hath he found to maintain this whorish and antichrist[ian] seat of abomination; idols, peregrinations, masses, dispensations, absolutions, defensions of all things abominable; tyrannies against virtue, establishments of his own laws, abrogations of God’s laws, emptying of heaven, and filling of hell, blessing of things exterior, oil, bell, bread, water, with other that be not cursed, and cursing of the souls that Christ redeemed with his precious blood; with a thousand more such abominations, under the name and pretence of God and his holy church, the which neither the patriarchs, neither the prophets, Christ, neither his apostles, never knew of, as both the testaments doth bear record. (Hooper, A Declaration of the Ten Commandments, chap. 6, in Works, vol.1, p. 325)

Of that wicked and pestilent see and chair of Rome, which is indeed the very ***** of Babylon that St John describeth in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, sitting upon a seven headed beast, which St John himself interpreted to be seven hills, and the children in the grammar-school do know that Rome is called civitas septem montium, the city of seven hills. (Hooper, An Apology Against the Untrue and Slanderous Reports, in Works, vol. 2, p. 554.)

THOMAS CRANMER (1489-1556) And as for the pope, I refuse him as Christ’s enemy and antichrist, with all his false doctrines. (Cranmer, Works, vol.2, appendix, p. 566.)

I know in what office God hath placed me, and to what purpose; that is to say, to set forth his word truly unto his people, to the uttermost of my power, without respect of person, or regard of thing in the world, but of him alone. I know what account I shall make to him hereof at the last day, when every man shall answer for his vocation, and receive for the same good or ill, according as he hath done. I know how antichrist hath obscured the glory of God, and the true knowledge of his word, overcastting the same with mists and clouds of error and ignorance through false glosses and interpretations. It pitieth me to see the simple and hungry flock of Christ led into corrupt pastures, to be carried blindfold they know not wither, and to be fed with poison in the stead of wholesome meats. And moved by the duty, office, and place, whereunto it hath pleased God to call me, I give warning in his name unto all that profess Christ, that they flee far from Babylon, if they will save their souls, and to beware of that great harlot, that is to say, the pestiferous see of Rome, that she make you not drunk with her pleasant wine. (Cranmer, Works, vol. 1, pp. 6,7.)

After all these sprung up the pope, that tripled crown monster, and great antichrist, which took upon him authority, not only over the clergy, but also climbed above kings and emperors, deposing them at his pleasure, and settled himself in the temple of God, that is, in the consciences of men, extolling himself above God, dispensing with good laws, and giving men leave to break them, and to regard more his decrees than the everlasting commandments of God. (Ibid., vol. 2, p. 15.)

And in the seventeenth chapter he lively setteth forth the pope in his own colours, under the person of the ***** of Babylon being drunken with the blood of saints; pointing, as it were with his finger, who this ***** of Babylon is, and the place where she shall reign, saying: ‘The woman which thou sawest is that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth.’ Now what other city reigned at that time, or at any time since, over the christian kings of the earth, but only Rome? Whereof it followed Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons. (Ibid., pp. 62, 63.)

Not content herewithal, more insolent than Lucifer, [the Pope] hath occupied not only the highest place in this world above kings and princes, but hath further presumed to sit in the seat of Almighty God. Which only he reserved to himself, which is the conscience of man; and to keep the possession thereof, he hath promised forgiveness of sins totiens quotiens.

“He hath brought in gods of his own framing, and invented a new religion, full of gain and lucre, quite contrary to the doctrine of the holy scripture, only for the maintaining of his kingdom, displacing Christ from his glory, and holding his people in a miserable servitude of blindness, to the loss of a great number of souls, which God at the latter day shall exact at his hand: boasting many times in his canons and decrees, that he can dispense contra Petrum, contra Paulum, contra vetus et novum Testamentum; and that he, plenitudine potestatis, tantum potest quantum Deus; that is, ‘Against Paul, against the old and new Testament; and of the fulness of power may do as much as God.’ O Lord, who ever heard such blasphemy? If there be any man that can advance himself above him, let him be judged antichrist.

This enemy of God and of our redemption is so evidently painted out in the scriptures, by such manifest signs and tokens, which all so clearly appear in him, that, except a man will shut up his eyes and heart against the light, he cannot but know him: and therefore, for my part, I will never give my consent to the receiving of him into this church of England, and you, my lord, and the rest that sit here in commission, consider well and examine your own consciences: you have sworn against him: you are learned, and can judge of the truth. I pray God you be not willfully blind. As for me, I have herein discharged mine own conscience toward the world, and I will write also my mind to her grace (Queen Nary), touching this matter.” (Ibid., pp. 222, 223. The forthright letter written to Queen Mary in that same month, September, 1555, appears on pp. 447-554.)

John Bale (1495-1563) The great antichrist of Europe is the king of faces, the prince of hypocrisy, the man of sin, the father of errors, and the master of lies, the Romish pope. He is the head of the said pale horse, whose body are his patriarchs, cardinals, archbishops, bishops, fat prebends, doctors, priests, abbots, priors, monks, canons, friars, nuns, pardoners, and proctors, with all the sects and shorn swarm of perdition, and with all those that consent with them in the Romish faith, obeying their wicked laws, decrees, bulls, privileges, decrials, rules, traditions, titles, pomps, degrees, blessings, counsels, and constitutions, contrary to God’s truth. The wickedness of these hath so darkened the blind world, that scarce was left one sparkle of the verity of the christian faith. Nowhere can men dwell to greater loss of their souls’ health, than under their abominations. (Bale, The Image of Both Churches, in Select Works, pp. 325,326.)

By the monstrous, ugly, and most odious beast rising out of the sea, with seven heads and ten horns, is meant the universal or whole Antichrist, comprehending in him all the wickedness, fury, falsehood, forwardness, deciet, lies, crafts, sleights, subtilties, hypocrisy, tyranny, mischiefs, pride, and all other devilishness, of all his malicious members which have been since the beginning…….

No abomination nor mystery of iniquity, as Paul calleth it, was ever found in these kingdoms, but now reigneth manifold in the detestable papacy or monstrous kingdom of antichrist, as all the world may see. (Ibid., pp.420,423.)

With this stinking strumpet have the mighty potentates of the universal earth, the emperors, kings, princes, and other notable governors, committed most shameful whoredom in the spirit by many strange worshippings, agreeing among themselves to her wickedly decreed laws and customs. Too long should we stand here in this place, if we should describe them all severally in their colours at large as they be.

Through the crafty legerdemain of the priests on the one side, and the cruel constitution of princes on the other side, the dwellers of the earth or worldly-minded multitude are drunken with the wine of her fornication spiritual, or practiced worshippings besides the prescript rules of God’s word…..

And I saw (saith St John) in mystery a woman (for a ***** at the first blush seemeth only a woman) sitting upon a rose-colored beast. This beast is the great antichrist that was spoken of afore, or the beastly body of the devil, comprehending in him popes, patriarchs, cardinals, legates, bishops, doctors, abbots, priors, priests, and pardoners, monks, canons, friars, nuns, and so forth; temporal governors also, as emporers, kings, princes, dukes, earls, lords, justices, deputies, judges, lawyers, mayors, bailiffs, constables, and so forth, learning their own duties-offices as to minister rightly, to serve their abominations. (Ibid., pp. 494-496.)

Edwin Sandys (1519-1588) He that sitteth in the temple of God, and termeth himself Christ’s vicar, doth in like sort offer unto the people bread, water, wine, milk, pardon of sins, grace, mercy, and eternal life; but not freely: he is a merchant, he giveth nothing, and that is nothing which he selleth. For although he make large promises to the buyer, he selleth that which he hath not to deliver. ‘Eternal life is the gift of God.’ The pope therefore selleth but wind and smoke for fire, shadows for truths: he deceiveth the buyers with false slights, false measures, false weights. Beware of this merchant, lose not your labour, cast not away your money: it is not meat but poison which he offereth you. His physic cannot heal your diseases; his holy water cannot wash away the spots of a sullied and defiled soul, as he untruly would bear you in hand; his blasphemous masses do not appease, but provoke God’s wrath; they cannot benefit the quick, much less the dead, which either need no help, or are past all help; his rotten relics cannot comfort you; his blind, dumb, and worm-eaten idols can do you no good. It is cast away which is spent upon his shameless pardons; they will not prevail-God will not admit them: by his Latin service ye cannot be edified, or made wiser. Yet this trumpery they sell for money, and upon this trash they cause silly men to waste their substance, and to these to commit their souls. Thus you see a manifest difference between Christ and antichrist. (Edwin Sandys, The Sermons of Edwin Sandys, pp. 11,12.)

Christ is obscured by that great enemy antichrist, ‘the man of sin,’ who hath set himself in Christ’s peculiar place, and will be ‘exalted above all that is called God.’ To make any other mediator between God and man, saving only Christ Jesus which is not only man, but also God; to seek elsewhere remission of sins, justification, redemption, sanctification, or salvation, that only in this Jesus, and in him crucified, doth darken and make dim both him and his merits. And of the treason the Romish antichristian church, which they term catholic, is found guilty. For the children of this harlot labour by all means to obscure the Son of God, to rob him of the glory of his deserts in our salvation. (Ibid., pp. 358,359.)

We do utterly abandon this usurped and proud authority: we have happily forsaken that synagogue of Satan.

This is our apostasy. We have forsaken him that hath forsaken God, and whom God hath forsaken: we have left that man of sin, that rose-colored harlot with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, that triple-crowned beast, that double-sworded tyrant, that thief and murderer, who hath robbed so many souls of salvation, and sucked so much innocent blood of christian martyrs, that adversary unto Christ, that pretensed vicar, who hath displaced the person, not only taking upon him Christ’s room and office, but also boasting himself as if he were a god, and being content of his parasites so to be called. This wicked man of sin is at length revealed by the sincere preaching of the gospel. Daniel in his prophecies, Paul in his epistles, and John in his revelations, have most lively described and pointed hin forth even as it were with the finger. Yea, through his pride and ambition, his usurping authority and worldly rule, his tyrrany and persecuting of Christ in his members, he hath sufficiently revealed and detected himself, if none had done it for him. (Ibid., p. 389.)

William Fulke (1538-1589) The see being found, it is easy to find the person by S. Paul’s description; and this note especially, that excludeth the heathen tryants, ‘He shall sit in the temple of God:’ which when we see to be fulfilled in the Pope, although none of the eldest fathers could see it, because it was performed after their death, we nothing doubt to say and affirm still, that the Pope is that ‘Man of sin,’ and ‘Son of perdition,’ the adversary that lifteth up himself ‘above all that is called God;’ and shall be destroyed ‘by the spirit of the Lord’s mouth, and by the glory of His coming. (William Fulke, A Discovery of the Dangerous Rock of the Popish Church, in Works, vol.2 p. 373.)

And concerning the usurped power of the bishop of Rome, which he most wrongfully challengeth, as the successor of Christ and Peter, we may easily perceive how false, feigned, and forged it is, not only in that it hath no sufficient ground in holy Scripture, but also by the fruits and doctrine thereof. For our Saviour Christ and St. Peter teach, most earnestly and agreeably, obedience to kings, as to the chief and supreme rulers in this world next under God; but the bishop of Rome teaches, that they that are under him are free from all burdens and charges of the commonwealth and obedience towards their prince, most clearly against Christ’s doctrine and St. Peter’s. He ought therefore rather to be called Antichrist and the successor of the Scribes abd Pharisees, than Christ’s vicar or St. Peter’s successor. (“An Exhortation Concerning Good Order and Obedience To Rulers and Magistrates” [Third Part]. In Certain Sermons or Homilies Appointed To Be Read in Churches in the Time of Queen Elizabeth [1890 ed.], pp. 119, 120: see also Wylie, op. cit., vol. 3. P. 436.)

Jean (John) Calvin (1509-1564) I deny that see to be Apostolical, wherein nought is seen but a shocking apostasy-I deny him to be the vicar of Christ, who, in furiously persecuting the gospel, demonstrates by his conduct that he is Antichrist-I deny him to be the successor of Peter, who is doing his utmost to demolish every edifice that Peter built-and I deny him to be the head of the Church, who by his tyranny lacerates and dismembers the Church, after disserving her from Christ, her true and only head. (Calvin, Tracts, vol. 1, pp. 219, 220; see also Guiness, Romanism, p. 236.)

Daniel and Paul had predicted that Antichrist would sit in the temple of God. The head of that cursed and abominable kingdom, in the Western Church, we affirm to be the Pope. When his seat is placed in the temple of God, it suggests, that his kingdom will be such, that he will not abolish the name of Christ or the Church. Hence it appears , that we by no means deny that churches may exist, even under his tyranny; but he has profaned them by sacrilegious impiety, afflicted them by cruel despotism, corrupted and almost terminated their existence by false and pernicious doctrines; like poisonous potions, in such churches, Christ lies half buried, the gospel is suppressed, piety exterminated, and the worship of God almost abolished; in a word, they are altogether in such a state of confusion, that they exhibit a picture of Babylon, rather than the holy city of God. (Calvin, Institutes, vol. 2, pp. 314,315. The English translation of 1561, fol. 15v, gives the same thought, only in the quaint but often more ivivd phrasing of the time.)

Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption upon Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt. And lest anyone should object, that we improperly pervert to the Roman pontiff those words of Paul, which belong to a different subject, I shall briefly show that they are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy. Paul says that Antichrist ‘sitteth in the temple of God.’ In another place, also, the Holy Spirit, describing his image in the person of Antiochus, declares that his kingdom will consist in ‘speaking great words,’ or blasphemies, ‘against the Most High.’ Hence we conclude that it is rather a tyrrany over the souls of men, than over their bodies, which is erected in opposition to the spiritual kingdom of Christ. And in the next place, that this tyrrany is one which does not abolish the name of Christ or of his Church, but rather abuses the authority of Christ, and conceals itself under the character of the Church, as under a mask. Now, though all the heresies and schisms which have existed from the beginning belong to the kingdom os Antichrist, yet when Paul predicts an approaching apostasy, he signifies by this description that that seat of abomination shall then be erected when a universal defection shall have seized the church, notwithstanding many members dispersed in different places, persevere in the unity of the faith. But when he adds, that even in his days ‘the mystery of iniquity’ did ‘already work’ in secret, what it was afterwards to effect in a more public manner, he gives us to understand that this calamity was neither to be introduced by one man, nor to terminate with one man. Now, when he designates Antichrist by this character,-that he would rob God of His honor in order to assume it to himself,-this is the principal indication which we ought to follow in our inquiries after Antichrist, especially where such pride proceeds to a public desolation of the church. As it si evident therefore that the Roman pontiff has impudently transferred to himself some of the peculiar and exclusive prerogatives of God and Christ, it cannot be doubted that he is the captain and leader of this impious and abominable kingdom. (Ibid., vol. 2, pp. 410,411 [in 1561 ed., fol. 45v].)

JOHN KNOX (1505-1572) First, then, not only are all the impious traditions and ceremonies of the papists taken away, but also that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church, is altogether abolished; and it is provided that all persons shall in the future acknowledge him to be the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks.

The mass is abolished, as being an accursed abomination and a diabolical profanation of the Lord’s supper; and it is forbidden to all persons in the whole kingdom of Scotland either to celebrate or hear it. (The Zurich Letters [1st series], 1558-1579, p. 199.)

As for your Romane Church, as it is now corrupted, and the Authority thereof, wherein stands the hope of your Victory, I no more doubt but that it is the Synagogue of Sathan; and the head thereof, called the Pope, to be that man of Sin of whom the Apostle speaketh, then that I doubt that Jesus Christ suffered by the procurement of the visible Church of Jerusalem. Yea, I offer myself by word or writing, to prove the Romane Church this day farther to degenerate from the purity which was in the dayes of the Apostles, then was the Church of the Jewes from the ordinance given by Moses, when they consented to the innocent death of Jesus Christ. These words were spoken in the open audience of the Parish Church of Saint Andrews, after the said Dean John had spoken what it pleased him, and had refused to dispute. (Knox, The Historie of the Reformatioun of Religioun Within the Realm of Scotland, book 1, pp. 75, 76.)

As far as I am concerned I am absolutely convinced, that whatever is done in the Roman church is contradictory to Christ’s blessed rule, and is nothng else than a lethal poison; and whosoever drinks of it drinks death and damnation to himself…….

The malice of your bishops is only to evident, their impure lives contaminate the very air; the innocent blood they shed cries to God for vengeance; the idolatry and abominations they with impunity commit perverts and defiles the whole country. And none amongst you has the courage to do away with these villainies. Will not God consider you guilty? Do not decieve yourselves, dear bretheren. Do not sleep in your sins, for vengeance is near to all the disobedient. Flee from Babel, if you do not want to partake in her destruction. (Translated from Brandes, op. cit., p. 494.)

JOHN NAPIER (NEPER) (1550-1617) In the former proposition was described the holie Spouse of Christ, here is to bee described the filthie whoore of Sathan, there that Ladie, who is adorned with the Sunne, Starres, and heavenlie virtues: here that Adultresse, who glories in golde, silver, precious stones, and worllie pleasures: there shee, who is persecuted by the Dragon, here she unto whome the Dragon doeth give authoritie: There she, who is chaced into the wilderness, and hath no lodge to hide her in; here she who impireth above all people, and is the Metropolitane citie of the world. And finallie, seeing in al things this Whoore, or whoorish Babylon, is contrarious to Christes holie Spouse, lette us, and all Christians trie her out, as our detestable and deadlie enemie, and see what Babylon she is. We say then, that this Babylon, is not that reall Babylon of Chaldee, but Rome, for these reasons. First, for that this Babylon is called mysterium Babylon, that is to say, mysticall or figurative Babylon: Therefore, it is not Babylon it self in Chaldee. (John Napier, A Plaine Discovery of the Whole Revelation of Saint Iohn., p. 34. This first reason was supported by a series of supplemental arguments.)

For firste (saieth the text) the Woman that sate upon this Beast, is the great Citie, that sitteth over the Kings of the earth: So the chiefe seate and citie of the Latine or Romane Empire, is that great citie Rome, that had Empire overe all the kingdomes of the earth. Secondly, saith Daniel, there shal foure chief kingdomes arise upon the earth, under the figure of foure beastes: Whereof (by plaine interpretation hee saith) the fourth beast that had these ten horns, is the fourth kingdome of the earth: And so it is, that the firste greate kingdome or Monarchie being the Babylonians: The seconde, of the Medes and Persians: The thirde, of the Graecians. The fourth and laste, is certainlie the Monarchie of the Latines or Romanes:and therefore, that fourth beaste which both there in Daniel, & here in Iohns Revelation, hath ten horns, must necessarily be the Romane or Latine Empire. (Ibid., pp. 36,37; and introductory table.)

Cotton Mather (1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian)
"The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them."
Taken from The Fall of Babylon by Cotton Mather in Froom's book, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 3, pg. 113.

John Wesley (1703-1791) (Methodist)
Speaking of the Papacy he said, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone."
Taken from Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms by John Wesley, pg. 110.


SECOND SCOTCH CONFESSION OF FAITH In special, we detest and refuse the usurped authoritie of that Romane Antichrist upon the scriptures of God, upon the Kirk, the civill Magistrate, and consciences of men. (Philip Schaff, Creeds, vol. 3, p. 481.)

The statement from the Westminster Confession of Faith of the Church of England, which was later used by the Presbyterians, is significant:
There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ, nor can the pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition that exalteth himself in the church against Christ and all that is called God. (The Westminster Confession of Faith, Section 6, chapter 25)

Irish Articles of Faith (adopted in 1615): "The Bishop of Rome...be that 'man of sin', foretold in the holy Scriptures."

Westminster Confession of Faith: "The Pope of Rome...is that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ."

Savoy Declaration: "The Pope of Rome...is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition."

Baptist Confession 1688: "The Pope of Rome...is no other than Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition."

The Waldensian treatise titled the Noble Lesson, dated 1100 A.D., stated: "Antichrist, the predicted murderer of the Saints, hath already appeared in his true character, seated monarchally in the seven-hilled city." In 1120 or 1160 A.D., A Treatise Concerning Antichrist identified the Pope of Rome as the Antichrist. George Faber identifies this as a production of Peter the Valdo (Faber, pp. 379-384).

In 1206, the Albigenses made the following confession: "That the Church of Rome was not the spouse of Christ, but the Church of confusion, drunk with the blood of the martyrs. That the polity of the Church of Rome was neither good nor holy, nor established by Jesus Christ" (Peter Allix, The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of the Albigenses, 1821 edition, first published in 1692, p. 178).

Y. b. in C. Keith

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Now, Keith, to get back to Papal Rome, Papal Rome, although it has its doctrinal problems, the Pope isn't trying to become the Prince who rules over the nations from Jerusalem", but Islam of the Abram-Hagar-Ishmaelites ARE trying to become that Prince, eversince Ishmael and Hagar were expelled "by that woman Sarai" from his father Abram's family camp.
ROMANISM AND THE
REFORMATION
by H. Grattan Guiness

The following is taken from the book ROMANISM AND THE REFORMATION, by Grattan Guiness (Lecture 2, pgs. 36-40)

“We ask then, Has the Papacy exhibited this mark also? Time would fail me to quote to you verbatim its great words, its boastful self-glorifications, and its outrageous blasphemies against God! You will find pages of them quoted in my work on “The Approaching End of the Age,” and volumes filled with them exist, for Papal documents consist of little else. The Papal claims are so grotesque in their pride and self-exaltation, that they almost produce a sense of the comic, and that feeling of pitying contempt with which one would watch a frog trying to swell itself to the size of an ox! I must however mention some of the claims contained in these “great words,” which will show you the nature of Papal blasphemies. It is claimed, for instance, that “no laws made contrary to the canons and decrees of Roman prelates have any force,” that “the tribunals of all kings are subject to the priests,” that “no man may act against the discipline of the Roman Church,” that “the Papal decrees or decretal epistles are to be

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numbered among the canonical Scriptures,” and not only so, but that the Scriptures themselves are to be received only “because a judgment of holy Pope Innocent was published for receiving them.” It is claimed that “emperors ought to obey, and not rule over pontiffs”; that even an awfully wicked pope, who is a “slave of hell,” may not be rebuked by mortal man, because “he is himself to judge all men and to be judged by none,” and “since he was styled God by the pious prince Constantine, it is manifest that God cannot be judged by man”! They claim that no law, not even their own canon laws, can bind the popes; but that just as Christ, being maker of all laws and ordinances, could violate the law of the Sabbath, because He was Lord also of the Sabbath, so popes can dispense with any law, to show they are above all law!

It is claimed that the chair of St. Peter, the see of Rome, is “made the head of the world”; that it is not to be subject to any man, “since by the Divine mouth it is exalted above all.” In the canon laws the Roman pontiff is described as “our Lord God the pope,” and said to be “neither God nor man, but both.” But the climax of assumption, the keystone of the arch of Papal pretension, is probably to be found in the “extravagant” of Boniface VIII., the Unam Sanctam, which runs thus: “All the faithful of Christ by necessity of salvation are subject to the Roman pontiff, who judges all men, but is judged by no one.” “This authority is not human, but rather Divine..Therefore we declare, assert, define, and pronounce, that to be subject to the Roman pontiff is to every human creature altogether necessary for salvation.”

All these claims were incessantly and universally urged all down the centuries by the popes of Rome, and are still advanced, as boldly as ever, in official decretals, bulls, extravagants, decisions of canonists, sentences of judges, books, catechisms, sermons, and treatises of all kinds. There is no mistaking what they amount to. The pope claims Divine inspiration, his words are to be received as the words of God; no laws can bind him, he is supreme over all; the very Scriptures derive their authority from him; implicit obedience to him is the only way of salvation. He is exalted above all, supreme over all nations, kings, emperors, princes, bishops, archbishops, Churches, over all the world; he is as God on earth, and as such to be worshipped and obeyed. Let me quote you from his own lips

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some of the great words of the little horn. The following language affords a mere sample of thousands of such Papal blasphemies. The greatness of priesthood began in Melchisedek, was solemnized in Aaron, continued in the children of Aaron, perfected in Christ, represented in Peter, exalted in the universal jurisdiction, and manifested in the pope. So that through this pre-eminence of my priesthood, having all things subject to me, it may seem well verified in me, that was spoken of Christ, “Thou has subdued all things under His feet, sheep and oxen, and all cattle of the field, the birds of heaven, and fish of the sea,” etc.: where it is to be noted that by oxen, Jews and heretics, by cattle of the field, pagans be signified..by sheep and all cattle are meant all Christian men, both great and less, whether they be emperors, princes, prelates, or others; by birds of the air you may understand angels and potentates of heaven, who be all subject to me, in that I am greater than the angels, and that in four things, as afore declared, and have power to bind and loose in heaven, and to give heaven to them that fight in my wars; lastly, by the fishes of the sea, are signified the souls departed, in pain or in purgatory.

All the earth is my diocese, and I am the ordinary of all men, having the authority of the King of all kings upon subjects. I am all in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do. In all things that I list, my will is to stand for reason; for I am able by the law to dispense above the law, and of wrong to make justice in correcting laws and changing them..Wherefore if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what can you make me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called and counted of Constantine for gods, I then, being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods. Wherefore no marvel if it be in my power to change time and times, to alter and abrogate laws, to dispense with all things, yea, with the precepts of Christ; for where Christ biddeth Peter put up his sword, and admonishes His disciples not to use any outward force in revenging themselves, do not I, Pope Nicholas, writing to the bishops of France, exhort them to draw out their material swords? And

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whereas Christ was present Himself at the marriage in Cana of Galilee, do not I, Pope Martin, in my distinction, inhibit the spiritual clergy to be present at marriage feasts, and also to marry? Moreover where Christ biddeth us lend without hope of gain, do not I, Pope Martin, give dispensation for the same? What should I speak of murder, making it to be no murder or homicide to slay them that be excommunicated? Likewise against the law of nature, item against the apostles, also against the canons of the apostles, I can and do dispense; for where they in their canon command a priest for fornication to be deposed, I, through the authority of Sylvester, do alter the rigor of that constitution, considering the minds and bodies also of men to be weaker than they were then. After that I have now sufficiently declared my power in earth, in heaven, in purgatory, how great it is, and what is the fullness thereof in binding, loosing, commanding, permitting, electing, confirming, disposing, dispensing, doing, and undoing, etc., I will speak now a little of my riches and of my great possessions, that every man may see by my wealth, and abundance of all things, rents, tithes, tributes, my silks, my purple miters, crowns, gold, silver, pearls and gems, lands and lordships. For to me pertaineth first the imperial city of Rome, the palace of Lateran; the kingdom of Sicily is proper to me; Apulia and Capua be mine. Also the kingdom of England and Ireland, be they not, or ought they not to be, tributaries to me? To these I adjoin also, besides other provinces and countries, both in the occident and orient, from the north to the south, these dominions by name. [Here follows a long list.] What should I speak here of my daily revenues, of my firstfruits, annats, palls, indulgences, bulls, confessionals, indults and rescripts, testaments, dispensations, privileges, elections, prebends, religious houses, and such like, which come to no small mass of money?..Whereby what vantage cometh to my coffers it may partly be conjectured..But what should I speak of Germany, which the whole world is my diocese, as my canonists do say, and all men are bound to believe; except they will imagine (as the Manichees do) two beginnings, which is false and heretical? For Moses saith, In the beginning God made heaven and earth; and not,

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In the beginnings. Wherefore, as I began, so I conclude, commanding, declaring, and pronouncing, to stand upon necessity of salvation, for every human creature to be subject to me (Foxe: “Acts and Monuments,” vol. 4., p. 145).

It is futile to allege that the Papacy does not make these claims and speak these great words against God, but in His name and as His representative. The answer is patent. This prophecy foretells what the power predicted would do, not what it would profess to do. Does the Papacy give God the glory, or does it glorify itself? Facts cannot be set aside by false pretensions. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. The head of a Christian Church would not overtly array himself against Christ; if he does so, it will be under semblance of serving Him.1

The Papacy has abundantly branded on her own brow this particular of the prophecy — the boastful, blasphemous claim to Divine authority and absolute dominion. It has assumed Divine attributes, and even the very name of God, and on the strength of that name claimed to be above all human judgment.”

It is, and has ever been the intention of the papacy to rule the entire world, which she believes is her God given right.

quote:
The seemingly deadly wound that was healed was Islam, not Roman Catholicism, which has even "lost ground" in the last couple of centuries.
If you believe this, you are simply not paying attention. This much is definitely true, her power and influence upon the most powerful nation on earth is growing daily.


Y. b. in C. Keith

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By contrast, not much has changed in the church of Rome since the Reformation of the 1600s, if anything, the church of Rome has been weakened and marginalized in the world.

Just because a few Popes are "coming to America" and other countries doesn't mean that "the deadly wound of Papal Rome is healed" in our time. But the wound to the Islamic head IS suddenly healed and resurgent.

We have already discussed the decline and fall of the pagan Roman empire. That it was brought about as a result of the establishment of the church of Rome, that is Papal Rome, within the empire. It was the judgments of God upon the empire for the abominations of the church of Rome. More specifically, the abomination of desolation which was set up by law within the Roman empire. This did not come about through some decisive critical blow to the empire, but rather slowly over a course of more than two hundred years by the invasions of the barbarians from the north. Thus the deadly wound which we are discussing cannot be properly applied to pagan Rome.

The question is of course, can we find an event in history, relating to Papal Rome, that could rightly represent her receiving an apparent deadly wound to her head? The answer, of course, is yes. Observe the following quotes.

When, in 1797, Pope Pius VI fell grievously ill, Napoleon gave orders that in the event of his death no successor should be elected to his office, and that the Papacy should be discontinued.

But the pope recovered; the peace was soon broken; Berthier entered Rome on the tenth of February, 1798, and proclaimed a republic. The aged pontiff refused to violate his oath by recognizing it, and was hurried from prison to prison into France. Broken with fatigue and sorrows, he died on the nineteenth of August, 1799, in the French fortress of Valence, aged eighty two years. No wonder that half Europe thought Napoleon’s veto would be obeyed, and that with the Pope the Papacy was dead.--- “ The Modern Papacy,”
Page I ( Catholic Truth Society, London ).

The following quotes are taken from the book, FACTS OF FAITH.

(Having now seen that the 1260 years of papal supremacy began in 538 A. D., it is an easy matter to find their close. Adding the 1260 years to 538 brings us to the year 1798. And if we have given the right application to this prophecy, history must record an event in 1798 that would appear like a death stroke to the Papacy. Turning to history we find just such an event recorded:

The official Swedish newspaper, Stockholms Posttidning, for March 29, 1798, has the following news item:

“Rome, the 21st of Feb. [1798], Pope Pius VI, has occupied the papal chair for all of twenty-eight years, but the 15th inst. his government in the Papal States was abolished, and five days later, guarded by one hundred French soldiers, he was taken away from his palace and his capital ....

“His... property was sold by the French, and among it were seven hundred head of cattle, one hundred fifty horses, and eight hundred
cords of wood ....

“Poor Pius! He must have felt very sad as he left Rome to go into captivity. When he departed his tear-filled eyes were turned heavenward.”

Rev. E. B. Elliott, A. M., says of these events:
“In the years 1796, 1797, French dominion being established by Bonaparte’s victories in Northern Italy,... the French armies [urged] their march onward to the Papal Capital ....

The aged Pope himself, now left mere nominal master of some few remaining shreds of the Patrimony of Peter, experienced soon after in person the bitterness of the prevailing anti-papal spirit ....

“On pretence of an insult to the French Ambassador there, a French corps d’armee under Berthier, having in February, 1798, crossed the Apennines from Ancona, and entered Rome, the tricolour flag was displayed from the Capitol, amidst the shouts of the populace, the Pope’s temporal reign declared at an end, and the Roman Republic proclaimed, in strict alliance fraternization with the French. Then, in the Sistine Chapel of the Vatican, the ante-hall to which has a fresco painted by Papal order commemorative of the Protestant massacre on St. Bartholomew’s day, (might not the scene have served as a memento of God’s retributive justice?) there, while seated on his throne, and receiving the gratulations of his cardinals on the anniversary of his election to the Popedom, he was arrested by the French military, the ring of his marriage with the Church Catholic torn from his finger, his palace rifled, and himself carried prisoner into France, only to die there in exile shortly after”-”Horoe Apocalyptice,” Rev. E. B. Ellfott, A. M., Vol. III, pp. 400, 401. London: 1862.

Arthur R. Pennington, M. A., F. R. Hist. Soc., says of this event:

“One day the Pope was sitting on his throne in a chapel of the Vatican, surrounded by his cardinals who had assembled for the purpose cf offering him their congratulations on his elevation to his high dignity. On a sudden, the shouts of an angry multitude penetrated to the conclave, intermingled with the strokes of axes and hammers on the doors. Very soon a band of soldiers burst into the hall, who tore away from his finger his pontifical ring, and hurried him off, a prisoner, through a hall, the walls of which were adorned with a fresco, representing the armed satellites of the Papacy, on St. Bartholomew’s day, as bathing their swords in the blood of unoffending women and helpless children. Thus it might seem as if he were to be reminded that the same God who visits the iniquities of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation, had made him the victim of His retributive justice for a deed of atrocity which had long been crying aloud to Him for vengeance”-” Epochs of the Papacy,” pp. 449, 450. London: 188I.

Rev. Joseph Rickaby, an English Jesuit, writes: “When, in 1797, Pope Plus VI fell grievously ill, Napoleon gave orders that in the event of his death no successor should be elected to his office, and that the Papacy should be discontinued.

Rev. George Trevor, Canon of York, writes of this eventful year:

“The object of the French Directory was the destruction of the pontifical government, as the irreconcilable enemy of the republic .... The aged pope was summoned to surrender the temporal government; on his refusal, he was dragged from the altar .... His rings were torn from his fingers, and finally, after declaring the temporal power abolished, the victors carried the pope prisoner into Tuscany, whence he never returned (1798).

“The Papal States, converted into the Roman Republic, were declared to be in perpetual alliance with France, but the French general was the real master of Rome .... The territorial possessions of the clergy and monks were declared national property, and their former owners cast into prison. The Papacy was extinct: not a vestige of its existence remained; and among all the Roman Catholic powers not a finger was stirred in its defence. The Eternal City had no longer prince or pontiff; its bishop was a dying captive in foreign lands; and the decree was already announced that no successor would be allowed in his place”-” Rome: From the Fall of the Western Empire,” pp. 439, 440. London: 1868.

An English secular writer, John Adolphus, says of 1798:

“The downfall of the papal government, by whatever means effected, excited perhaps less sympathy than that of any other in Europe: the errors, the oppressions, the tyranny of Rome over the whole Christian world, were remembered with bitterness; many rejoiced, through religious antipathy, in the overthrow of a church which they considered as idolatrous, though attended with the immediate triumph of infidelity; and many saw in these events the accomplishment of prophecies, and the exhibition of signs promised in the most mystical parts of the Holy Scriptures.”-”History of France from 1790-1802,” Vol. II, p. 379. London: I803. (FACTS OF FAITH by Christian Edwardson pages 49-51)

Without question then, the church of Rome received a deadly blow to the head in the year 1798. The Pope, the head of the church, was removed from his throne and died as a prisoner in exile. The government of the church of Rome was no more. These things are factual events in history, which fulfill this prophecy exactly.

However, the verse doesn’t just say that this beast receives a deadly wound, but that this wound would be healed, and all the world would wonder after the beast. These things must also be true of the church of Rome, if this prophecy is to be applied to her. So, is this wound healed now, two hundred and eight years later? Lets take a look at some indications from the present condition of the church of Rome.

Of course we know that there is, and has been for quite some time now, a Pope sitting on the church of Rome’s throne. According to an article by the Catholic herald, (Knock, Knock: Pope Seeks Diplomatic Ties, 5/12/2005), “The Vatican currently enjoys full diplomatic relations with 174 countries, and Benedict XVI is looking for more.” It also has the status of a permanent observer at the UN. Pope John Paul II received the Congressional Medal of Honor from the US Congress. This is not surprising, since 28.8 percent of the US congress is Roman Catholic. There are more than twice as many Roman Catholics in our congress than any other religious affiliation. In and of itself, this is quite an accomplishment, considering the fact that this country was predominantly anti-Catholic in it’s beginnings.

Twenty two of the Governors of this country are Roman Catholic, that’s forty four percent. There is more though, five out of nine of our supreme court justices are Roman Catholic, That’s fifty six percent. This gives them a majority vote on any issue. Were talking about the court that shapes, and makes, the laws of our land. Without question, the church of Rome has a heavy, and ever increasing influence upon the US government, it’s policies, and course of action. Thus the nation has begun a dive from which she will not recover. Just as the establishment of the church of Rome within the Roman empire caused the decline and fall of the same, so will it also be here in the U.S.. Nay, not only in this country, but in the entire world, as her influence is on the rise on a global scale.

Who can forget the funeral of Pope John Paul II, it was the largest funeral in the history of the world. Leaders from virtually every nation on earth attended. Without question, all the world is beginning to wonder after the beast.

The deadly wound which the church of Rome received is not yet completely healed, but it is well on it’s way.

quote:
Likewise the countries that are mentioned around this "deadly wound that was healed" in Revelation are the lion for Babylon-Iraq, the bear for Iran, both Islamic countries.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

It is all the world that will worship the beast when the dealy wound is healed.

Islam will certainly be a part of this final beast of biblical prophecy, for it will entail the control of all the governments and religions of this world, manipulated by BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


Y. b. in C. Keith

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scythewieldor
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Dear friends,
quote:
Ga 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
From the very beginning, men were sneaking into the ranks of the Church.
quote:
1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Some were, surely, Jews trying to keep the Gospel of the Kingdom of God from all men.
When running a war strategy that includes a "Fifth Column", you hide information that would allow your enemy to fight intelligently, promote in-fighting, and spread false information.
The facts about the last years of Jerusalem are some that are refused by many seminaries, and, thus, help maintain a delusion.
quote:
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The facts about Babylon have been neglected, as well.
These blind spots allow deceivers to build false expectations in the churches. False expectations leave us with hope deferred too long.
quote:
Pr 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.
Not only that, false expectations make for "one-eyed" vision without depth perception. In short, we don't know where we are in God's itinerary.
quote:
Pr 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.
All of the errant interpretations of prophecy have overturned the faith of many.
quote:
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

While we are trying to develop a depth perception, it behooves us to go back over the commandments of Jesus and the decrees that the apostles and elders had delivered to the churches by epistle.
That is the faith once handed down (Jude 3).
The Truth is something you do.
quote:
1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
If we will be faithful with the Truth that can be done, we will see the Truth that Jesus is- both, in the sufferings that we will share with Him, and, in the glories to come.
If you do the lie that makes some so compatible with the world, the world will love you, but you will have no inheritance in Light.

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Eden
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In the book of Daniel, the Old Testament used the Hebrew word "desolate" in the phrase in Daniel, "the abomination which makes desolate":

Daniel 11:31
And arms shall stand on his part and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that makes desolate.

Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate BE SET UP, there shall be 1,290 days.

In the Old Testament, the word "desolate" always meant "without inhabitant".

Strong's Concordance (avail. free at www.eliyah.com)

Dan 11:31 And arms 02220 shall stand 05975 on his part, and they shall pollute 02490 the sanctuary 04720 of strength 04581, and shall take away 05493 the daily 08548 [sacrifice], and they shall place 05414 the abomination 08251 that makes desolate 8074.

Dan 12:11 And from the time 06256 [that] the daily 08548 [sacrifice] shall be taken away 05493 , and the abomination 08251 that makes desolate 8074 set up 05414, [there shall be] a thousand 0505 two hundred 03967 and ninety 08673 days 03117.

Strong's Concordance
8074 shamem, a primitive root; to stun (or intransitively, grow numb), i.e. devastate or (figuratively) stupefy (both usually in a passive sense):--make amazed, be astonied, (be an) astonish(ment), (be, bring into, unto, lay, lie, make) desolate, places), be destitute, destroy (self), (lay, lie, make) waste, wonder.

So it is "the abomination which makes astonished and destitute and desolate and waste".

So let's look at Daniel's verses again:

Daniel 11:31
And arms shall stand on his part and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that makes desolate.

Now, Roman General Titus did do all those things, his arms or army was victorious on his part, they polluted the sanctuary of strength (and more particularly the Romans stood in the Holy of Holies), they destruction of the temple at Jerusalem took away the daily sacrifice, and because the Gentiles has stepped into the Holy of Holies and had planted the Roman Eagle ensign or standard flag in the Holy of Holies.

By doing all the above things, the Romans had "set up the abomination which makes desolate", meaning that the temple was destroyed, 1 million-plus Jews died in Jerusalem during the siege of Jerusalem, and the abominable Gentiles had set up their standard in the Holy of Holies, the temple was destroyed and the remnant of the Jews were sold into the nation.

This was the "abomination that made desolate", meaning it made Judah to be "without inhabitant". The Romans of Titus accomplished all of Daniel 11:31.

Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate be set up, there shall be 1,290 days.

Maybe that refers to first Roman General Vespasian coming around 66 A.D. and then Vespasian had to rush back to Rome to secure the Emperorship when his father died, and by 70 A.D., or over a period of 1,290 days, Roman General Titus showed up to finish the LORD's work on Jerusalem.

with love, eden

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Eden
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Hi, Keith. You said
quote:
Now the church of Rome is rising to power again, her deadly wound is almost completely healed.
Instead of Papal Rome deadly wound being healed, I think this deadly wound being healed refers to Islam.

After the crusades of the 11th and 12th centuries of our time, Islam lost most of its power and Christian Europe was in ascendancy in power in the world.

But in our own time, the seemingly deadly wound of Islam is suddenly healed as Islam is resurgent in power, and there are now millions of practising Islamics in the Christian countries of Europe, and minarets are springing up in every European country.

By contrast, not much has changed in the church of Rome since the Reformation of the 1600s, if anything, the church of Rome has been weakened and marginalized in the world.

Just because a few Popes are "coming to America" and other countries doesn't mean that "the deadly wound of Papal Rome is healed" in our time. But the wound to the Islamic head IS suddenly healed and resurgent.

Likewise the countries that are mentioned around this "deadly wound that was healed" in Revelation are the lion for Babylon-Iraq, the bear for Iran, both Islamic countries.

We need to also recognize that Ishmael and Isaac are both sons of Abraham, and that Ishmael is "after the flesh" but Isaac is "after the spirit".

It is very noteworthy that the Quran, the "holy book" of Islam, has extensively borrowed characters and text from the LORD's Old Testament; in fact, the Quran reads like a B version of the Old Testament.

When Abraham sent Ishmael and Hagar away from their camp, the Ismaelites dwelled in the wilderness of Paran, but they also dwelled in the Hejaz coastal region of northwest Arabia along the east shore of the Red Sea.

The Hejaz was the coastland from Midian/Aqaba in the northwest south to Mecca where Mohamet was born in around 620 A.D.

According to the Quran, Abram tried to sacrifice Ishmael on mount Moriah instead of Isaac, and Mecca was located and guarded the south end of the Hejaz coastland.

Mahomet of Mecca was almost certainly an Abram-Hagar-Ishmaelite, the same ones who are still trying to "take over all that belongs to Isaac".

So in Mecca at the south end of the Ishmaelite Hejaz, Mohamet ended up with the text of the Quran, a great deal of which was directly borrowed from the LORD's Old Testament, and reads like a "B" version of the Old Testament.

That is, Lucifer-Satan is trying to use the Abram-Hagar-Ishmaelites of Mecca-Hejaz to "become the Prince who rules over the nations from Jerusalem", as foretold in Ezekiel 40-48 and in Isaiah.

Now, Keith, to get back to Papal Rome, Papal Rome, although it has its doctrinal problems, the Pope isn't trying to become the Prince who rules over the nations from Jerusalem", but Islam of the Abram-Hagar-Ishmaelites ARE trying to become that Prince, eversince Ishmael and Hagar were expelled "by that woman Sarai" from his father Abram's family camp.

For this reason, the Quran claims that Abram tried to sacrifice Ishmael and NOT Isaac, on mount Moriah.

Islam's head was very powerful, with Islam after the 7th century A.D. taking much of Africa and penetrating into Spain until Charles "the Hammer" Martel pushed the Islamics back out of Spain into Africa.

And then after the crusades, the head of Islam was at it were "wounded unto death", until, in our own time, the "deadly wound was healed", and the Islamic Ishmaelite Mecca-Hejaz head has suddenly become resurgent.

And why? Because the season for the crowning of the Prince of Ezekiel 40-48 is drawing near. It is time for the Lord Jesus of Nazareth, who is from the ISAAC branch of Abraham, to be the Prince of Ezekiel 40-48.

But Abram-Hagar-Ishmael, with his ally Lucifer-Satan, created Ishmael-Mecca Islam, to try and take the Prince's seat from Isaac-New Testament Jesus.

In all of this, Papal Rome is barely a factor. The Pope may be "visiting other Catholics in other countries", but the Pope is NOT trying to become the Prince of Ezekiel 40-48.

But the prophet Mahomet with his god Allah IS trying to become the Prince of Ezekiel 40-48, because Mahomet is a son of Abram-Hagar-Ishmael of Mecca-Hejaz-Ismaelite country.

The seemingly deadly wound that was healed was Islam, not Roman Catholicism, which has even "lost ground" in the last couple of centuries.

eden

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Keith
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Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


The above verses are a decscription of that which was accomplished by the Roman empire. First pagan Rome through military conquest, and secondly through papal Rome, and spiritual conquest. It was, and is papal Rome that has exalted itself even to the prince of the host, which is Christ, since we know that the host spoken of, includes some of the host of heaven from verse ten. By claiming to be the head of all Chritians, and assuming prerogatives that belong only to God, the pope and Roman priesthood have exalted themselves to the position of God.

Christ is in the sanctuary in heaven, where He ever liveth to make intercession for us. To grant forgiveness of our sins, and the power of the Holy Spirit unto righteousness. This is the very priesthood that the church of Rome has sought to replace. Instead of coming to God through Christ for forgivness, her members go to the priesthood set up by the church of Rome. In this respect the church of Rome has taken away the daily, and cast down the place of the sanctuary. By bringing the mininstration from heaven to earth through her priesthood, and the ministration of Christ from heaven to themselves through their counterfiet system. By reason of transgression, they have cast the truth to the ground, and practiced, and prospered.

Through her adulteress relations with the kings of the earth, she established herself in authority over all subjects of the Roman empire. Making them all subjects of her rule and religion. Thus she trampled both the sanctuary and the host under her foot. As long as she had the power of the state, the true people of God during the new covenant dispensation would be persecuted, and the truth concerning our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary would be obscured. This condition would last until the end of the 2300 days.



Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.


The above verses are speaking about the same events of chapter eight which we have discussed. The arms that stood for the church of Rome, were the armies and civil powers of the state, which were repeatedly used by the church of Rome to persecute all those who would not bow to her authority.

The polluting of the sanctuary is twofold, first through her false doctrines, some of which we have already discussed, and secondly through the members of the church, who are themselves building blocks of the new covenant temple. The temple in heaven, and the temple on earth are intricately connected. They exist for each other. By polluting the individual members of the body of Christ through the establishment of false doctrine, the temple on earth, and in heaven is polluted.

Again, the taking away of the daily is the replacement of Christ’s ministry on behalf of His own in the heavenly sanctuary, with the ministration of the church of Rome on earth. The setting up of the abomination of desolation is setting up of the church of Rome, and her false doctrines, in place of God, and the truths of His word. The abomination of desolation itself, being one particularly abominable flase teaching and practice that fittly embodies the entire false system of worship.

Those who know their God, and do exploits, are those who know the truth and do battle with the church of Rome by speaking it. Many of them have, and will fall by the sword, the flame, captivity, and spoil. The flatteries are the lying and adulteress spirit through which the church of Rome manipulates the kings and peoples of the eath. These things have taken place already in the past, and will, and are taking place again and even now. For the deadly wound which the first beast received will be healed by the help of the second beast to bring all these things back upon the entire world before our Lord and Savior returns again (Rev. 13).

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Keith
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Abomination]/b]

Deuteronomy 7 25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: [b]for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God. 26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house,
lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

Worshipping, or bowing down to, or owning idols, is an abomination to the Lord. The church of Rome is guilty of establishing the same through the worship of Mary and the various saints. Her members do regularly bow down and pray to idols of the same.

Deuteronomy 12 29 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; 30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. 32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Following the example of how other nations worshiped their god’s is an abomination unto the Lord. Christianity conquered pagan rome. The church of Rome is that apostate Christian entity which combined the worship and practices of the various sun worshipping peoples of pagan Rome, with the true new covnant worship of God.


Deuteronomy 13 12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, 13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14 Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

Going out to worship other god’s is an abomination to the Lord. Again, the worship of Mary, and the other saints, and the pope, is the equivalent of this abomination.

Deuteronomy 17 1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God. 2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, 3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and inquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Offering and incomplete, or blemished sacrifice to the Lord, is an abomination unto the Lord. Worshiping other god’s, particularly, the sun, moon, or stars, is an abomination unto the Lord. Again, the church of Rome fulfills the above with her teachings. It is not possible to offer oneself as a complete sacrifice to God, while observing the false teachings of the church of Rome, which so often contradict the teachings of God’s holy word.

Deuteronomy 18 9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

It is an abomination for God’s people to learn to do after the people which the Lord has given into their hands. They should not worship their god’s, or incorporate their practices of worship into their own. ( 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: ).

Deuteronomy 20 18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.

Do not follow the practices of the heathen nations, it is an abomination unto the Lord.

Deuteronomy 29 16 (For ye know how we have dwelt in the land of Egypt; and how we came through the nations which ye passed by; 17 And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among themJ 18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;

The same.

Deuteronomy 32 16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. 17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. 18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith

Incorporating the practices of other religions into the true religion, is an abomination unto the Lord. This is exactly what the church of rome is.

I Kings 11 4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.

The same.

II Kings 23 12 And the altars that were on the top of the upper chamber of Ahaz, which the kings of Judah had made, and the altars which Manasseh had made in the two courts of the house of the LORD, did the king beat down, and brake them down from thence, and cast the dust of them into the brook Kidron. 13 And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile.

The same.

II Kings 23 23 But in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, wherein this passover was holden to the LORD in Jerusalem. 24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD.

Those who spoke to the dead, practiced magic, worshipped images, and idols, were an abomination unto he Lord. Most of which the church of Rome teaches and practices.

II Chronicles 36 14 Moreover all the chief of the priests, and the people, transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen; and polluted the house of the LORD which he had hallowed in Jerusalem. 15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place: 16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.

There is a point of no return. This is the abomination of desolation. That is, the abomination that causes desolation.

Ezra 9 12 Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children for ever. 13 And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this; 14 Should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping?

Practicing the abominations of the nations around them, was the breaking of God’s commandments. The breaking of God’s commandments is an abomination. Not just that someone sinned, but that they accepted and believed, and practiced, that which was the breaking of God’s commandments. This is an abomination. The church of Rome teaches the breaking of the 2nd and 4th commandments.

Proverbs 28 9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. 10 Whoso causeth the righteous to go astray in an evil way, he shall fall himself into his own pit: but the upright shall have good things in possession.

The one who will not hear, or accept the law of God, even their prayers are an abomination.

Ezekiel 8 15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these. 16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. 17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. 18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.

Sun worship was the greatest of all the abominations listed by Ezekiel. Sunday worship among Christians is the mixture of Pagan religion of the worship of the sun with Christianity. It is an abomination unto God. It is the church of Rome.]/I]

Ezekiel 9 1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. 2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar. 3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; 4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. 5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

[I]Right after pointing out the abominations of Israel, sun worship being the worst of them all, God seals his servants in the forehead before the slaughtering angel begins his work. His work was the desolation of those who claimed to be God’s people while performing all the above abominations. God sent the Babylonians from the kingdom of the north to destroy them. Likewise, when they had finally rejected their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and His gospel, the Romans came and destroyed them, their temple, and their city.


Revelation 17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great ***** that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

In the new covenant era, the church of Rome is the MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. She is that institution which has set up abominations among those who profess to be God’s true people. Her rise to power in Rome, brought the judgment of God from the barbarians of the north. They repeatedly brought destruction, devastation, and desolation upon the the Roman empire, until it fell in 476 AD.

Now the church of Rome is rising to power again, her deadly wound is almost completely healed. This time though, her power and influence is world wide. As she rises to power in the world, so to will the judgments of God upon the earth. This time, God’s kingdom is the kingdom of the north that will bring judgment upon the entire world. The book of Revelation tells of these judgments upon those who worship the image of the beast. This time it will be the end of all things of this world. Christ will return and the beast, and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire.


Revelation 21 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
I really agree with you that the "abomination of desolation" may very well have come. I also have read that the Roman Emporer went into the temple and sacificed a pig. Today, I believe that we are in the days of a great deception being pulled over the eyes of many who have turned from God,rejected Jesus Christ, and grown cold at heart. The world is already warming its welcome for the religious and political minded anti-christ who comes in the name of peace. We need to persevere my friend, and draw strength from the Lord in prayer.
Jesus is coming quickly.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Isaiah
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First -not everyone who thinks they are preaching the gospel preach the gospel OF THE KINGDOM -the true gospel. Many do not believe in the kingdom of God, but preach many things which are not true. For example...

Many believe and teach that when we die we immediately go to heaven or hell. The gospel of the kingdom states that the dead in Christ will be raised from the dead at the last trump -Christ's return -when the kingdoms of the world become his -the living in Christ will be caught up with them (leaving the living not in Christ on earth)and will reign with him on earth for a thousand years -and that the rest of the dead do not live again until the thousand years are finished (Rev 11:15, Joh 3:13, Act 2:34-35, 1Th 4:16-17, 1Co 15:51-52, Rev 20:4-6, Rev 5:9-10, Psa 37:11). The true gospel of the KINGDOM also includes the importance of God's sabbath and holy days (Isa 66:23, Zec 14:16-19)

Many will not believe this -because the abominations are so pervasive -and have been so throughout history -infecting the beliefs of even those who broke for various reasons from that religious power -but those 'gospels' which deny such ARE FALSE.

...and there are many more differences between the gospels preached today and the true gospel of the kingdom -but as for the last abomination of desolation -it is related to -but not directly accomplished by -the false religious power.

The end-time abomination of desolation is a military destruction of Jerusalem -though the false church will have helped that political/military power to power.

In Daniel we read ...Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honor of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.Dan 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
Dan 11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
Dan 11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
Dan 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

This political/military leader is further described...Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The abomination is not the taking away of the daily (which IS in these times THE PREACHING OF THE TRUE GOSPEL) -as these are two separate events separated by 1,290 days...Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days... The daily being taken away comes by this king having intelligence with those who forsake the covenant (yes this king NOW works through those now persecuting those who are preaching this gospel), etc... to the end that God eventually leads those now preaching THE gospel into the wilderness just before this beast begins his 3 1/2 year reign of terror(Rev 12:14, Dan 12:7).

And as Christ plainly said.... the desolation has to do with ARMIES....
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

and...
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let (him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains:

The false religious power (the second beast of Rev 13:11-12) will have worked (is now working) in tandem with the first beast -that king from Daniel (called the beast in Revelation 13:18).

This is the abomination explained further..
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city...

but in the next lines we read the good news -or another part of the GOSPEL of the KINGDOM...

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

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Keith
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Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

In the above verses, the abomination of desolation is directly tied to the giving of the everlasting gospel to the entire world, when the end shall come. It is therefore still a future event, though it has more than one application in the past also.

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The above verses reveal the source of abominations, that is the church of Rome. The literal fulfillment of this prophecy was the setting up of the pagan standard of pagan Rome which was the abomination warning all Christians to flee from Jerusalem. The spiritual application applies to the church of Rome, and her abominable teachings. Thus the call out of Babylon (Rev. 18: 1-6). This will happen twice, for the church of Rome is established in power twice. During the Protestant reformation the call was heralded, come out of her my people. Now also at the end of time when her power is being re-established, the call must go forward, come out of her my people. The deadly wound is almost completely healed and the message must be heralded, come out of her my people, that ye not partake of her sins.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

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Isaiah
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THE TEMPLE

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. (speaking of the new Jerusalem)

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mar 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mar 15:29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,
Mar 15:30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

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Thunderz7
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It happened in 70 A.D.,
it happens in the individual life/temple of each one of us.

Having been prophetic of 70 A.D., it could well be prophhetic still of a future event.
(prophecy is not limited to a single occurance)

It is happening now,
the temple mount has been desolate of true worship since the destruction of Solomon's temple,
and an abomination sits/stands in its place.

T7

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Isaiah
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Like many things in the bible, there are types and antitypes -I'm not saying there was not desolation before -just that all that followed those verses had not come to pass and the final abomination spoken of by Daniel had not come to pass. Some of the following have happened, but not all and not to the extent they will...
please read all of this (emphasis mine).....

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let (him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains:...

Mar 13:19 For IN THOSE DAYS shall be affliction, SUCH AS WAS NOT from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, NO FLESH SHOULD BE SAVED: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

The destruction of ALL FLESH was not even possible until modern times.

This is a time of peril for the ENTIRE EARTH and ALL LIFE IN IT, but the abomination IS specific to Jerusalem.

This is not any tribulation of old, as it says...

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Unfortunately, the desolation of Jerusalem takes place at the end of the tribulation -there will not be many nations left standing!

Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against a hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

Quoting the post you quoted...

"yet these things have not been...

....and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give **** , in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

Similar things have happened before -but this speaks of the following....

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains;

The final abomination precedes Christ's return -he will have gathered the armies of the earth which remain to Megiddo, and they will then turn to fight HIM -but he will overcome them!

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

And there is no arguing that the following has not yet happened...

Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

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Eden
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In another Topic, Christianbbs member Isaiah (not the prophet Isaiah) asked something about whether the following verses from the Bible are yet future or whether some of the verses have already occurred.

So let's look at some of the verses member Isaiah mentioned in the other Topic:
quote:
Mat 24:15 When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso reads, let him understand:)

Mat 24:16 Then let them who be in Judea flee into the mountains.

Verse 16 says that the people in Judea need to flee. It doesn't say anything that the people need to flee who live in the Americas or in New Zealand.

But instead, in the period 60-70 A.D., Roman General Vespasian surrounded Jerusalem with an army, but Vespasian had to hurry back to Rome because his father had died and Vespasian had to secure the Emperorship for himself.

And so Vespasian broke off the siege of Jerusalem and in this interlude, whoever had believed Jesus's words, they fled from Judea to Pella on the east side of the Jordan.

Let's compare Matthew's version with this versin in Luke 21:
quote:
Luke 21:

20 And when you shall SEE Jerusalem COMPASSED ABOUT WITH ARMIES, then know that the desolation thereof is near.

21 Then let them who are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them who are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

And indeed it happened, that after a while, Roman Geneal Titus, the son of Vespasian, surrounded Jerusalem with armies again, and this time IT WAS TOO LATE and Josephus records that more than a MILLION people perished who had assembled for Passover in and around Jerusalem.

Isaiah, then you said
quote:
yet these things have not been...

....and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

These days of Titus WERE the days of vengeance. The Mosaic system was about to be terminated and swept out of the way and replaced by a better covenant.

Luke 11:51
From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give **** , in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Isaiah, note that Luke 21:24 says that AFTER this abomination of desolation stands in the Holy Place ("was an unclean Gentile like Titus standing where the Holy Place had been that abomination of desolation"?), note that after that "abomination of desolation" stuff, Luke 21:24 occurs, and notice that then "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles shall be fullilled".

If that "trodding down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles" were still future to us and were to happen, say, at the end time, then how could there still be a period in which ""Jerusalem could still be trodden down of the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles shall be fullilled"?

So those parts seem to have been fulfilled by the Vespasian-Titus period which were the days of vengeance which swept the Mosaic temple system out of the way because now:

Matthew 12:6
But I say to you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

So those parts must have been fulfilled in 60-70 A.D.?

But what about other parts of Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 and Luke 21? Are they fulfilled already or was Judea-Jerusalem also a type or figure of what will happenn to the entire world in macrocosm?

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exaltshimself above all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

But, if that is still future to us, then a temple has to be built first, unless...the temple of God referred to in 2 Thes.2:4 refers to the body of man:

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

So it may mean that when the 2Thes.2:4 person is said to "sit in the temple of God", that "the spirit of this world" dwells in that person and "sits in the temple as if he is God". And if that is meant, then a new physical temple may not be necessary in the future in Jerusalem (though, there is Ezekiel 40-48).

with love,
eden

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