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Author
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Topic: Is the atonement limited?
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Bloodbought said quote:
Christ didn’t atone for the goats; He only atoned for the sheep.
Michael Harrison said quote:
Jesus did atone! The sheep became sheep by submission. The goats became goats by declining.
I agree with Michael Harrison, except that I would change the two bolded words in his statement.
He said, "the sheep became sheep by submission" and I would rephrase that to, "the goats became sheep by submission".
And he said, "the goats became goats by declining" and I would rephrase that to, "the goats remained goats by declining".
Because before we were saved, we were all goats, we were not sheep until we were saved. In fact, we are actually "saved goats", which the Bible then calls "sheep".
eden
I thought I was finished with this topic, but I found an answer to this question from scripture.
The question is do those who are saved become sheep by submission and do those who refuse to submit become goats by declining?
Or, are they all goats to start with and become sheep by submission?
Answer
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
These other sheep are gentiles.
Notice that they are sheep before they are brought into the fold. They ware never goats and did not become sheep by submission. He would go after them and when they hear His voice they will submit because they are His sheep. The day of grace will continue until the last sheep is safely in the fold and then He will return.
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becauseHElives
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posted
Eden.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goyim
Goy (Hebrew: גוי, regular plural goyim גויים in Western languages) is a transliterated Hebrew word which translates as "nation" or "people". Historically and up to modern times it is a synonym for Gentile or non-Jew.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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Hi becauseHElives. You said quote:
The Hebrew word for Gentile—goy—literally means "nation." In a general sense, it refers to all people who are not born Jewish.
It refers to all people who are not born Israelite. The title Jewish only applies, first of all, to Judah, and secondarily only to those who lived in the southern kingdom of Judah (like Benjamin and Levi).
But Gentile was anyone who was not born an Israelite.
Be blessed, eden
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Hi jimbarn,
What is a recovering pharisee? I have not heard that expression before. ![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif)
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jimbarn
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posted
BecauseHelives,
Thank you for your reply.Very enlightening.I am grateful to all posts in that I am learning much.
I read your reference Lev.16:29.My ESV does not mention atonement in v.29.It does in v.30,however no mention of the stranger(sojourner KJV) in v.30.
Please show patience to a recovering pharisee.
Investigating!
Barney
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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becauseHElives
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posted
jimbarn hope this answers your question....(bold part)
Who is a Gentile?
The Hebrew word for Gentile—goy—literally means "nation." In a general sense, it refers to all people who are not born Jewish. But over time, the word took on the meaning of people who do not believe in the G-d of Israel and are thus excluded from His promises and blessings. By the time of Jesus, goyim (plural) was used in a scornful manner, such as putting them in the same category as the dreaded "tax-collector" (Matt. 18:17).
However, in keeping with G-d's emphasis on the inner person and His love for humanity, righteous Gentiles have always been welcome in the Kingdom of G-d. In Scripture, they are called gerim, translated as "sojourners, aliens or strangers," and yireh-Elohim, meaning "G-d-fearers." For an accurate understanding of the place of Gentiles in the family of G-d, it is important to know the rights and responsibilities of believing non-Jews in biblical times. Consider the following:
* The word ger is derived from a Hebrew root meaning "to turn aside from the road and to abide." Or, to say it in another way, these were people who reached the end of their spiritual journey and now dwell in the house of the L-rd.
* G-d required equal application of the Law to ethnic Jews and gerim—"There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you" (Num. 15:16; Exod. 12:49).
* Gerim were granted the same societal protections such as the courts and cities of refuge (Deut. 1:16; 24:17; Josh. 20:9), and served in the army (2 Sam. 1:13).
* Gerim were entitled to celebrate Passover and to become circumcised (Exod. 12:48). They were included in the national atonement on Yom Kippur (Lev. 16:29) and celebrated Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles (Deut. 16:13,14).
* Gerim were given the privilege of taking part in sacred assemblies (Josh. 8:33) and having a day of rest—the Sabbath (Exod. 23:12).
* Since G-d parceled out the land of Israel to the twelve tribes and these plots remained in the possession of the descendents of the tribes, Gerim were not permitted to own land (Num. 26:55). It should be noted, however, that the tribe of Levi also had no land rights, yet held a prominent place in the nation. In both cases, the food needs of both groups were accommodated—the Levites received offerings, while the gerim could glean the fields (Deut. 24:19-21) or serve as artisans and other occupations (1 Chron. 22:2).
* By the time of the Second Temple, gerim were permitted to bring offerings for sacrifice to the Temple (Isa. 56:6,7). G-d further declared that "My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples" (Isa. 56:7; cf. 1 Ki. 8:41-43).
The portrait is rather clear of the person who had not been born Jewish but became a believer in the G-d of Israel and lived according to G-d's principles. Aside from the ownership of land, there were no major distinctions between the native born Israelite and the ger. At one point during the reign of Solomon, it is noted that 153,000 gerim lived in the land of Israel (2 Chron. 2:17).
But like the believing remnant of Jews among national Israel, the believing gerim were a remnant among the Gentiles. In G-d's great plan of the ages, their numbers would increase exceedingly with the coming of Messiah and the sending out of His followers to tell people from every nation about Him.
Jesus came to break down every barrier that stood not only between G-d and man, but between Jew and Gentile. The Bible calls it reconciliation, from a Greek word meaning, "to change from hostile enemies to friendship." The Apostle Paul showed how reconciliation first begins between people and G-d:
Now all these things are from G-d, who reconciled us to Himself through Messiah, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that G-d was in Messiah reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:18-20).
And in Ephesians 2, he described the relationship of non-believing Gentiles to Israel:
Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision, " which is performed in the flesh by human hands—remember that you were at that time separate from Messiah, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without G-d in the world (Eph. 2:11-12).
But Jews and Gentiles are reconciled to each other as a result of their reconciliation with G-d:
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to G-d through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity (Eph. 2:14-16).
When Paul cites "the barrier of the dividing wall," he may have been referring to the wall that separated ungodly Gentiles from the inner courts of the Temple in Jerusalem. An inscription on this wall warned Gentiles that they faced the death penalty for going beyond the barrier. Why was that? Because they were unrighteous and could not draw near to G-d's Holy Temple.
But through faith in Jesus, everyone is given righteousness and can stand in G-d's presence. And once people are reconciled to G-d, by eliminating the hostility of sin, G-d reconciles people to each other by eliminating the hostilities that exist between us. Specifically he refers to bringing together Jews and Gentiles, forming a singular body that we call the Church. Paul uses a similar metaphor in Romans 11:17-24 where he describes Jews and Gentiles being united together like an olive tree with natural and grafted in wild branches.
Notice what Paul says in Eph. 2:12—"you were at that time separate from Messiah, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without G-d in the world."
But believing Gentiles—gerim—are no longer "at that time." They have reached a new time. It is a time when:
* They are united with Messiah.
* The are included in the commonwealth of Israel.
* They are heirs to the covenants of promise.
* They have a great hope.
* And they live daily in fellowship with G-d.
The principle of reconciliation is the key to understanding related passages like Rom. 10:12; Gal. 3:28 and Col. 3:11 which teach "there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile." This does not mean that Jews cease being Jews, no more that a steak ceases being a steak and becomes a fish, but that through Messiah we all become a new creation and share in the same salvation and blessings (2 Cor. 5:17).
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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jimbarn
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I was wondering,When the highpriest,OT times,went into the Holy-of-Holies to make atonement for the children of Israel,was there any atonement for any other peoples?
Investigating!
Barney ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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becauseHElives
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posted
If the Atonement is limited, Yahweh is a respecter of persons and we now have Yahweh making Himself out a liar!
interesting?
I think not....
The scripture teaches that there is no respecter of persons with God, "For there is no respect of persons with God," Paul declared (Rom. 2: 11).
However, such is hard for man to realize, especially since man is often given to respect of persons. Nonetheless, the scriptures are emphatic and replete with teaching that presents God as not judging or treating man, any man, with respect of persons. In other words, God is just and equitable in his dealings with man.
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him;" "And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him;" "But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons;" "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear" (Acts 10: 34, 35; Eph. 6: 9; Col. 3: 25; I Pet. 1: 17).
Salvation for all men. The Bible says that all men sin (Rom. 3: 23). Therefore, all men (accountable men and women) need salvation. The grace of God that brings salvation "has appeared to all men" (Tit. 2: 11). Jesus is the means of salvation for all men. Jesus, we are told, tasted death for "every man" (Heb. 2: 9). Jesus' blood was shed for the remission of man's sins (Matt. 26: 28). Paul wrote thus of Jesus, "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (I Tim. 2: 6). Hence, Jude referred to the "common salvation," available to all men (Jude 3).
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Bloodbought,
I think that you are stretching my words a little. You have been with me on here for a while now and you know that I would not describe the salvation experience without the necessity of repentance and faith. This is all just play on words. The bottom line is that the shed blood of Christ applied to the altar in the heavenlies is sufficient to bring any man into the presence of God. This does not mean that everyone will come into the presence of God because not everyone will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus. Therefore, you see how I believe in the sufficiency and effectiveness of the New Covenant Blood that was shed, and you also see that I do not believe in a universal salvation.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Bloodbought,
I have 3 different bible dictionaries and they all give a little different perspective on the word atonement. Yes, "reconciliation" is listed, but so is "a covering for sin". Take a look at this passage in Romans. It appears that we could safely use either "reconciliation" or "covering for sin" in exchange for the word atonement....take a look here please....
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received "reconciliation" (the atonement).***notice how we need to remove "the" otherwise to say received the reconciliation would not seem proper language***
--or--
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the "covering for sin" (atonement)***Notice how we are able to leave in the word "the" and the language flows....the covering for sin
Now I can show you my concern. If we look at the second example using "covering for sin" I am afraid that the words "limited" atonement could be misunderstood as a "limited" covering for sin.....another words a covering that is not sufficient cover all of our sin, but partially covers it. You see what I mean? My spirit just does not settle right seeing the word limited in front of the word atonement. If the word atonement is seen as a noun, then the word limited would seem be describing the blood sacrifice of Christ to be limited.
You have explained your position well. I understand the point that you are trying to stress. I sense that people go this route in an effort to prove that Jesus did not die for the sins of the world. I do not desire to make a further comment on this. I believe that there are some christians on this site who will be able to offer good perspective on this subject.....I am eager to learn more.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Hi oneinchrist,
First of all, thank you for the complement.
If as you say, atonement means covering for sin and is not limited, then you are saying that there is universal atonement, universal reconciliation and universal salvation, unless you want to take the position that Christ in His death didn’t actually save anyone, but only made salvation possible. So did He in His death actually atone for sin and save, or was He making atonement in potential? When He said, “it is finished” was salvation actually secured on behalf of a chosen number, or was salvation made possible for all?
We are really only scratching the surface of this topic, I am looking at it from God’s perspective while you are looking at it from mans perspective. There is God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility. Jesus was both God and man. There were times when he speaks as God and there were times when He speaks as man. As God He said I have power to lay down my life and take it again. As man He said I do nothing of myself, but what I see the Father do. Did He have power or was He depending on the Father? These two statements seem to contradict, but they don’t. Both are true. So then, is our salvation dependent on what Christ secured on our behalf on the cross, or is our salvation dependent on our believing? Both. There is no contradiction both are true. We can have confidence that when we repent and believe He has already saved us. We have power through Him and He has power through us. We are locked into union with Christ as He is in us and we are in Him.
These are my final comments on this topic and it has been a pleasure talking to you all.
God bless.
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KnowHim
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Jesus did atone! The sheep became sheep by submission. The goats became goats by declining.
I personally believe that all persons have, at some point in their life, the opportunity to 'accept'. All! They were not literally created to refuse. Then after their opportunity, has passed, they play into the devil's hands.
Jesus died for the sins of the 'World'. The reason that there will be a judgement is because some refused this provision.
Amen!
.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Basic Theology
The Provision and Application of Reconciliation
God’s provision of reconciliation is universal. Because of the death of Christ the position of the world was changed—people were now able to be saved. But that alone saves no one, for the ministry of reconciliation must be faithfully discharged by proclaiming the Gospel message. When an individual believes, then he receives the reconciliation God provided in Christ’s death (vv. 18-21). The world has been reconciled, but people need to be reconciled. The universal reconciliation changes the position of the world from an unsalvable condition to a salvable one. Individual reconciliation through faith actually brings that reconciliation in the individual’s life and changes the position of the individual from unsaved to saved. Then, and only then, are his sins forgiven, though they were paid for on the cross. Man “has been reconciled with God because the reconciliation by God of sinful men to Himself, effected once and for all in Christ, has lasting effects. It is not applicable merely to one period or to one group of people, but to all the world. Whenever the word of reconciliation is proclaimed by those to whom God has committed it, and whenever it is appropriated by an individual sinner, whoever and wherever he may happen to be, that person is reconciled by God to Himself, and his reconciliation means that God no longer imputes to him his trespasses; i.e., He no longer counts his sins against him” (R.V.G. Tasker, The Second Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1958], p. 89).
To summarize: the need for reconciliation lies in God’s enmity against sinful mankind. God took the initiative and reconciled the world to Himself. This was done by the death of Christ, and that provision changed the world into a savable position before God. Yet though the world has been reconciled, man needs to be reconciled by changing his position about Christ. Then, and only then, is his condition before God changed.
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Carol Swenson
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Romans 5:15 (NLT)
15But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ.
Because of Adam’s trespass, many died; because of Christ’s obedience the grace of God abounds to many bringing life. The word “many” (literally “the many”) means the same as “all men” in Romans 5:12 and 18. Note the “much more”; for the grace of Christ brings not only physical life, but also spiritual life and abundant life. Christ did conquer death and one day will raise the bodies of all who have died “in Christ.” If He stopped there, He would only reverse the effects of Adam’s sin; but He went on to do “much more.” He gives eternal life abundantly to all who trust Him (John 10:10).
Sheep And Goats
Matthew 25 is about the end of the Tribulation. In that case, the goats are followers of the antichrist and they bear the mark of the beast. No offense Michael, but these are baaaaaaaaaaaaad goats!
The sheep are people who come to faith after the rapture of the church, and they help the "brethern", the Jews who are persecuted by the antichrist during the last half of the Tribulation. Good sheep! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
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Eden
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posted
Bloodbought said quote:
Christ didn’t atone for the goats; He only atoned for the sheep.
Michael Harrison said quote:
Jesus did atone! The sheep became sheep by submission. The goats became goats by declining.
I agree with Michael Harrison, except that I would change the two bolded words in his statement.
He said, "the sheep became sheep by submission" and I would rephrase that to, "the goats became sheep by submission".
And he said, "the goats became goats by declining" and I would rephrase that to, "the goats remained goats by declining".
Because before we were saved, we were all goats, we were not sheep until we were saved. In fact, we are actually "saved goats", which the Bible then calls "sheep".
eden
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Bloodbought,
I have 3 different bible dictionaries and they all give a little different perspective on the word atonement. Yes, "reconciliation" is listed, but so is "a covering for sin". Take a look at this passage in Romans. It appears that we could safely use either "reconciliation" or "covering for sin" in exchange for the word atonement....take a look here please....
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received "reconciliation" (the atonement).***notice how we need to remove "the" otherwise to say received the reconciliation would not seem proper language***
--or--
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the "covering for sin" (atonement)***Notice how we are able to leave in the word "the" and the language flows....the covering for sin
Now I can show you my concern. If we look at the second example using "covering for sin" I am afraid that the words "limited" atonement could be misunderstood as a "limited" covering for sin.....another words a covering that is not sufficient cover all of our sin, but partially covers it. You see what I mean? My spirit just does not settle right seeing the word limited in front of the word atonement. If the word atonement is seen as a noun, then the word limited would seem be describing the blood sacrifice of Christ to be limited.
You have explained your position well. I understand the point that you are trying to stress. I sense that people go this route in an effort to prove that Jesus did not die for the sins of the world. I do not desire to make a further comment on this. I believe that there are some christians on this site who will be able to offer good perspective on this subject.....I am eager to learn more.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Good NewsforAll
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
So you agree that salvation is limited. Good.
Christ didn’t atone for the goats; He only atoned for the sheep.
Oooh not so quick. I believe that Christ made atonement for everyone,goats and sheep, but the goats made a decision not to accept atonement on their own volition.
Throughout the scriptures the goats and sheep were given equal billing, but Jesus probably used the simile in Matthew 25:32 to make his intention more clear.
Hebrews 11:37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
1 Sam. 22:19 Then he went to Nob, the town of the priests, and killed the priests’ families—men and women, children and babies—and all the cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Jesus did atone! The sheep became sheep by submission. The goats became goats by declining.
I personally believe that all persons have, at some point in their life, the opportunity to 'accept'. All! They were not literally created to refuse. Then after their opportunity, has passed, they play into the devil's hands.
Jesus died for the sins of the 'World'. The reason that there will be a judgement is because some refused this provision.
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Good Morning/Afternoon Bloodbought
The scriptures say that God is not willing that any should perish. He isn't the one who limits Universal Salvation - it's Satan.
Totally agree,
Jesus has “sheep,” Satan has goats.
Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
So you agree that salvation is limited. Good.
Christ didn’t atone for the goats; He only atoned for the sheep.
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
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Good NewsforAll
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posted
Good Morning/Afternoon Bloodbought
The scriptures say that God is not willing that any should perish. He isn't the one who limits Universal Salvation - it's Satan.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Just because Jesus took on the sins of the whole world, does not mean that the whole world is going to be atoned.
You are taking John 17:9 out of context. Jesus is praying for the protection of the souls that have already been brought to salvation.
1 John 2:2 isn't talking about his people. It is talking about the sins of the world.
Christ’s death was an efficacious atonement for the sheep only.
John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Those who are not His sheep can’t believe.
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
They do not believe because they are not His sheep, not the other way round.
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
The term that should be used is Universal salvation. Universal salvation is not scriptural.
There should never even be the word "limited" in front of the word atonement. Those two words should never ever go together out of the mouth of a believer. Why? you ask..........it can give the idea that we question the sufficiency or effectiveness of the atonement itself....like saying the blood of Christ is inadequate to blot out our sin.
One should express in different words what they are suggesting by using the terms limited atonement.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Atonement means, adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favour.
God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
If the atonement is not limited, Christ’s death has purchased reconciliation and restoration to favour for all who have ever lived and all who will ever live. That would be universal salvation and as you say is not scriptural.
The only option left is to limit the atonement. All evangelicals who believe that some go to hell limit the atonement.
The question is how are we to limit the atonement?
Option 1) Christ atoned for all, but not all are atoned for.
Option 2) Christ atoned for a chosen number, but not all.
I take option 2.
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Michael Harrison
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posted
So you see, just ask the Pope!!!
(Ahm just funnin ya! Good post.)
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hittite1963
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I think that part of the issue boils down to the issue of election. Ephesians 1:4 teaches that God chooses men "in Christ." All who are truly "in Christ" will be saved (Romans 8:1). Yet, how can one come into Christ? It is an issue of personal choice. Faith comes by hearing the word (Romans 10:17). Those with good and honest hearts will hear and allow that word to grow in them unto saving faith (Luke 8:15). This doesn't mean that Christ's death failed in its purpose. It did, just as the Law of Moses was said to do for Israel, it set before men "life and death" in the hopes that they would "choose life" (Deuteronomy 30:19).
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Kyle Pope
kmpope@worldnet.att.net
http://kmpope.home.att.net
http://www.olsenpark.com
Posts: 70 | From: Amarillo, TX - USA | Registered: Mar 2008
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Good NewsforAll
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
The Bible says he took the sins of the whole world. His salvation and loving grace and mercy is for the whole world.
1 John 2:2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins— and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
John 7:23 I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me.
1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
He did not pray for the world.
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
He only prayed for them that were given Him.
That tells me that the world in 1 John 2:2 is referring to all His people throughout the world.
Universal atonement is unscriptural.
Just because Jesus took on the sins of the whole world, does not mean that the whole world is going to be atoned.
You are taking John 17:9 out of context. Jesus is praying for the protection of the souls that have already been brought to salvation.
1 John 2:2 isn't talking about his people. It is talking about the sins of the world.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006
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oneinchrist
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posted
The term that should be used is Universal salvation. Universal salvation is not scriptural.
There should never even be the word "limited" in front of the word atonement. Those two words should never ever go together out of the mouth of a believer. Why? you ask..........it can give the idea that we question the sufficiency or effectiveness of the atonement itself....like saying the blood of Christ is inadequate to blot out our sin.
One should express in different words what they are suggesting by using the terms limited atonement.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
The Bible says he took the sins of the whole world. His salvation and loving grace and mercy is for the whole world.
1 John 2:2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins— and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
John 7:23 I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me.
1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
He did not pray for the world.
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
He only prayed for them that were given Him.
That tells me that the world in 1 John 2:2 is referring to all His people throughout the world.
Universal atonement is unscriptural.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Good NewsforAll
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
The question is.
What was Christ actually doing in His death on the cross?
Was He actually making redemption reconciliation and propitiation for a chosen group of people, or was He making all mankind redeemable with the potential to be saved?
Did His death actually save us, or did his death make us saveable?
Did He actually take the sins of a chosen group of people in His own body, or did He take the sins of all who have ever lived and all who will ever live?
The Bible says he took the sins of the whole world. His salvation and loving grace and mercy is for the whole world.
1 John 2:2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins— and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
John 7:23 I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me.
1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
Eph.4
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Bloodbought
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posted
Hi Good NewsforAll
I see no problem with what David said.
quote:
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Why do they not find the gate? Not because they are not elected, but because this world is over-ruled with evil rather than good.
If they are elect God can send a man to bring the good news and they will respond and be saved. God will create the circumstances for them to receive a revelation of their sin and the Saviour.
The question is.
What was Christ actually doing in His death on the cross?
Was He actually making redemption reconciliation and propitiation for a chosen group of people, or was He making all mankind redeemable with the potential to be saved?
Did His death actually save us, or did his death make us saveable?
Did He actually take the sins of a chosen group of people in His own body, or did He take the sins of all who have ever lived and all who will ever live?
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Good NewsforAll
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posted
David Campbell said on another thread -
quote:
But I believe the Holy Spirit draws all men at some point in their life. If they continue to say no then their heart becomes hard and they may never come.
I do however believe we need to point everyone to Jesus Christ and let Him be where we keep our gaze and not on certain teachers.
Jesus is the one that said:
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 12:32 (KJV)
So I shall keep telling people about the love of God. And lifting up the name of Jesus Christ.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16
I have also heard it said before that every human being gets a tug at their hearts at least once in their lifetime, even the person in the most remote jungle of Africa, even though he doesn't understand what it is. Why does he not come to Christ? - because "the harvest is great, and the workers are few." He hasn't been educated about the saving grace of Jesus Christ.
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Why do they not find the gate? Not because they are not elected, but because this world is over-ruled with evil rather than good.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Bloodbought, how do you interpret the following scripture?
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Notice the words (us-ward) that is believers only. He is not willing that any of His people perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Good NewsforAll
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posted
Bloodbought, how do you interpret the following scripture?
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006
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Bloodbought
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posted
Is there such a thing as limited atonement?
There are two groups, we will call them (A) and (C).
(A) Say the atonement is not limited while (C) say the atonement is limited.
Neither A nor C believe that all will be saved.
(A) Say Christ died for all men.
They say the atonement was sufficient for all, but not all will come to Christ. In that case there are some in hell for which the atonement failed in its purpose.
(C) Say Christ died for the elect only and not for those who are lost. In that case the atonement succeeded in its purpose.
Which of A or C is limiting the atonement? Both.
(A) The atonement was sufficient for all, but failed to atone for some, therefore the atonement was limited.
(C) The atonement was for the elect only and succeeded in its purpose, but the atonement was not for all, therefore the atonement was limited.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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