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Topic: Thoughts on free will.
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becauseHElives
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posted
![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif) jim, like any topic if you pick individual scriptures to drive home a point or establish a doctrine, you will always end up with something short of the Truth...
All scripture must be taken together to understand the heart of Yahweh...
He chose us but as with a eastern bride where the father choses for the children (look at Abraham, Isaac, Rebekah and Eliezer in scripture, type and shadow of the Bride for Yeshua) we like Rebekah have the choice to except Issac or reject him.
The Bible is a complete book, not a collection of short stories.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Ohmuhgarsh! We have just been through this for the past two weeks! Read back through the posts before you ask that.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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jimbarn
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posted
John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice,and I know them,and they follow me.
John 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Fathers hand."
Psalm 23 The Lord is my shepherd......
He leads me....
Psalm 100:3 "Know that the Lord, he is God! It is he who made us, and we are his: we are the sheep of his pasture."
Now my question; Does the shepherd choose the sheep, or do sheep get to choose their shepherd?
Investigating!
Jimbarn
A recovering pharisee ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posts: 43 | From: Unicoi,Tn. | Registered: Feb 2008
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becauseHElives
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posted
quote:
". . . looking unto Jesus . . ."
anyway you slice this Bible Study...
"Thoughts on free will"
you are forced to understand the type and shadow of the Old Testament of the people bitten by the serpent in the wilderness is a clear picture of sin and the only cure.
It was the individuals choice to look up and obey Yahweh's words to the people.
There was no other way....
If I be lifted up Yeshua said I will draw all men...
how many did Yeshua say?
Yeshua said "if I be lifted, I'll draw all men to me." John 12:32-33. ...
Notice Yeshua did not say I will draw a select few...
or I will draw the elect...
HE said I will draw all men.... and they will have a choice , I will not force any to except my Salvation but whosoever will, I love those words ... whosoever will, I will give eternal life.
the Queen of England once said she was saved by the letter "M"
1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
she was glad Yahweh didn't say...
Not any Wise, Not any Mighty, Not any Noble…
I am SO GLAD Yeshua said He would draw all men, I could have been left out of that call.....
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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To me predestination is that the All-Knowing God knew ahead of time who in the future would be able to actually choose the LORD God YHWH of Israel and the Lord Jesus of Nazareth.
The test itself, Jesus dying on the cross, also predetermined WHO was going to be able to accept the God of Israel and Jesus as their Savior.
What if the God of Israel had been "really crazy" about "Nascar races" and so the God of Israel wanted sons and daughters who "also loves Nascar races". And, frankly, if "Nascar races" was the test, I would not be a bornagain Christian today.
So God foreknew who would be able to accept the Jesus on the cross sacrifice, and who would not be able to accept it.
Indeed, the threshold test for entering into eternal life probably pre-determined how many people would "be able to accept that Jesus was the Son of God" and to accept that "Jesus rose from the dead on the third day". (Romans 10:9-10)
Thankfully I was able to "pass this test" but if the threshold test to enter into eternal life had been, "do you like to eat a lot of oranges?", I would not have eternal life. Other people would have eternal life.
So the type of threshold test did predestinate a certain group of humans unto salvation, because of the type of test it was.
with love, eden
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CHEWY
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I personally don't like the doctrine of predestination myself, but the doctrine makes more sense to me when we consider the all knowing, all powerful God of the Bible.
Here is something I have been discussing with some close Christian brothers/sisters. I do believe the doctrine of predestination to be true. However, I think we would be better serving to our Lord Jesus to live our lives in an Armenian fashion because we don't know who the elect are [outside of ourselves]. We should go out and invite all into the Lord's house and we should try to be a witness to all about the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Evangelism of the lost and the doctrine of predestination combined does pose problems.
Thanks for all of the responses-
Chewy-
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Michael Harrison
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That is the best said ever! It boils down to this, and until we bend our knees to it, we are like stiff, and stubborn billygoats treading our own way.
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KnowHim
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posted
". . . looking unto Jesus . . ."
Hebrews 12:2
LOOKING UNTO JESUS
AND AT NOTHING ELSE, as our text expresses it in one untranslatable word (aphoroontes), which at the same time directs us to fix our gaze upon Him, and to turn it away from everything else.
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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posted
The Sovereignty of Yahweh can not be disputed but man's responsibility also must be considered...
The justice and goodness of God is correctly assumed in most Christian circles.
How we resolve the philosophical problem is the subject of much debate and depends upon other assumptions.
The Calvinist viewpoint attempts to resolve the issue by preserving the sovereignty of Yahweh, but it does so at the expense of His justice. In other words, they say that Yahweh has sovereignly elected a small remnant for salvation, and the rest have been elected to burn in hell.
The Arminian viewpoint attempts to resolve the issue by preserving Yahweh’s justice at the expense of His sovereignty. In other words, they say that man has total free will and that Yahweh can do little or nothing to overrule either Satan or man.
The problem is like a short blanket. The longer one end is, the shorter the other end. In vain we pull the blanket up to cover our chins, but as we do, we leave our toes exposed. It is one of the most irresolvable problems of the universe. Philosophers of all religious persuasions have struggled with it for a long time as well.
Yahweh is the Creator of Both Good and Evil
The Bible makes no apology for the fact that Yahweh is the Creator of all and the cause of evil. While Christians may shrink from this and consider it “blasphemous,” the Bible boldly makes such statements with no thought of such an assertion tainting His character. Isaiah 45:7 plainly says:
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I [Yahweh] do all these things.”
As the Scriptures state, Yahweh unashamedly takes full credit for the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart, proving His sovereignty, but totally ignoring the problem of justice. The Old Testament simply assumes that men are aware that He is sovereign, and that He has His agenda in history, His plan, which shall be fulfilled. It is as natural for Yahweh to create evil as it is for Him to create darkness. Yahweh raises up His own opposition in the persons of Pharaoh and Esau, with no judicial apology.
It is, perhaps, for this reason that the Apostle Paul, when confronted by charges that Yahweh may be unjust in doing this, merely says, “Who are you to question Yahweh? Do you not know that He is the Potter, and we are only the clay?” (Romans 9:20 and 21) He was only paraphrasing Isaiah 45:9-11, which says:
" Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
Thus saith [Yahweh], the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me."
In other words, if you want to argue, or “strive,” go argue with someone on your own level, another broken piece of pottery. How dare the clay question the Potter? How dare we question Yahweh’s competency or tell Yahweh how to run the universe? We must first recognize our place. We must agree that Yahweh is sovereign and that He knows what he is doing. With that faith, we may approach Him, asking for greater understanding in order that we might conform to His Image.
Considering the fact that we are only clay vessels, and that Yahweh is the Potter of the clay, how dare we instruct Yahweh! Do we really think we are so wise and powerful? Do we dare to tell Yahweh that He “has no hands?” Do we think of Him as handicapped and in need of our help and advice? Who do we think we are?
Like Paul, Job also understood that Yahweh was ultimately the Author of both good and evil. It was revealed to him that Satan needed Yahweh’s permission to tempt men (Job 1:6-12). So he said in 2:10:
"But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of [Elohim], and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips."
Many evil things had happened to Job. The biblical account tells us that Satan had to get permission from Yahweh to afflict Job (1:6-12). Yahweh gave Satan permission, and that is when the disasters, or “evils” began to happen to him. First, Job’s servants were killed by Sabeans, then Chaldeans killed more servants and stole his camels, and then a tornado destroyed the house, killing all his children. Finally, Satan got permission from Yahweh to afflict Job with boils (2:7).
In the story all these things were obviously brought about by Satan, and yet nothing happened without Yahweh’s express permission. Yahweh could have prevented this but chose not to do so. Yahweh did not sin in this, but Job knew that Yahweh was responsible for all this evil that had befallen him. Job attributed evil to Yahweh—NOT to Satan—and did NOT sin in doing so. Satan was merely Yahweh’s agent of judgment or testing, not an independent god outside of Yahweh’s control.
It is much like the way Yahweh uses human agencies to judge or test people. For example, Yahweh used Assyria to judge Israel, and He used Babylon to judge Judah and Jerusalem.
full article...
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Dbvf4qj3TDkJ:truthofyah.com/new-page-7.htm+The+Sovereignty+of+Yahweh+cannot+be+disputed+but+man%27s+responsibility&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Bloodbought
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Many of those who lean toward Calvinism see Calvinist doctrine in different ways. Personally I don’t believe in Hyper Calvinism, which states that man has no responsibility. I don’t think there are many Hyper Calvinists, but there are some.
"An attempt to clear up some of the misunderstandings about Calvinism."
"1) Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism are poles apart. The terms are not to be used synonymously. A Hyper Calvinist is not just a zealous Calvinist. We both consider each other to be "mongrel" Calvinists. No man will call himself a Hyper Calvinist.
2) Yes Calvinists are split into several factions. But then so are many such doctrinal schools e.g. Dispensationalism, Church Government, Worship…do we sing only the Psalms or use hymns? Which hymns? Do we use music? Which music? Which set of texts do we base our Bible translation on? Is it the Textus Receptus that is important or the (KJV) AV? or both? etc.,"
http://www.corkfpc.com/avoidingconfusion.html
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Bloodbought
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You are all doing well with your points of view.
I believe Mr Spurgeon got it right and thank you David for the link. I believe that there are two lines of thought, or will if you like, running through the scripture regarding the will of God and the will of man. I think we must accept that man has free will because scriptures bear this out. I also think that we must accept predestination because it is scriptural as well. These are two sides of the one coin and to accept one side of the coin and disregard the other side is to reject the coin altogether. Now I do realise that this can be a contentious subject but there is no need for it to be so. The two sides of the coin are working together to one purpose and that is the glory of God, but how I do not know. I am doing my best to work it out, but I am not sure if I will ever be successful.
I do believe Christ died to save His own people only. “He shall save His people from their sins” not “might”, “shall” save His people. Then when the fullness of time is come, His people receive the call and they hear his voice and come. They are predestined to be with Him in the glory.
We might not like the idea of anyone going to hell, but our idea isn’t what God is looking for. God is going to judge sin and many are destined for hell whither we like it or not and whether we put “pre” in front of the word destined or not. So if the will of God and the will of man are working in unison, who are we to argue with His plan when we can’t resist His will?
Does it say in the scripture that those who go to hell go there because of their rejection of Christ, or is it because of their sin? Can one who is dead reject Christ any more than accept Him?
God bless.
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TB125
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The following points of basic doctrine may help in the discussion of this issue:
1. All humans beings, including Adam and Eve, were created by God for fellowship in an eternal relationship with him.
2. Since the time of Adam and Eve's rebellion and throughout every aspect of human history, God has been at work to redeem his fallen creatures back to him. This work of redemption and salvation is God's work. He is in charge of it, and it will be done in accord with his will and plan.
3. Every human being is a created being that is completely responsible to God. No amount of "free will" or kind of "free" choices can enable any human being to excape his or her responsible relationship with God. One of the basic requirements of that relationship is to bring forth "fruit" in one's life that will glorify God. This is the entire basis for all of the teachings on stewardship that are recorded in the Bible.
4. Faithful acceptance of Jesus as God's only Son who was sent into the world to die in payment for humanity's sinful rebellion is God's way of restoring this relationship, and individuals can only experience this level of faith as a gift from God that is undeserved and beyond the realm of any works of religious zeal or righteousness. It is God's right as creator and judge to determine who of his rebellious creatures receives his "gift".
5. I'm not citing a bunch of passages from the Bible to support these points of doctrine, because that only puts them back into the current debate/discussion of this issue with it various citations of "proof-texts" for each different point. I believe that most of us who care about this matter of salvation recognize the basic validity of the above points. Let us engage in our discussions of doctrine and theology in ways that will glorify God, because I don't believe that any of us are smart enough or righteous enough to question him about what he is doing to redeem any of us back to himself. Amen.
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Bob
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by CHEWY:
David-
I really enjoyed your post from Spurgeon. His view on this subject is right on as far as I am concerned [See some of my previous posts] I do not believe that God sends people to Hell because He wants them to go there. They receive their punishment because of the decision to reject Jesus Christ. How can we have both the responsibility of man and accept a doctrine of predestination? Because God has commanded it. I cannot explain it nor will I try, but I will not reject it either. Most of us who are participating here believe in a triune God. [The Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] I can't even begin to explain how that these Three can be One, but it doesn't seem that we have these arguments over that issue. We just accept it and are thankful. I truly am glad that God has saved me. I was in a terrible state when Christ found me. Only He could have changed my hardened heart to the point of receiving His message of hope.
I'll be gathering information for the rest of my life, because the more I learn of God, the more I realize I don't know or understand-
Chewy-
Chewy,
This discussion about freewill has been going on for a very long time. It has caused splits in churches and I am sure it has caused hard feeling between believers.
I believe we do need to be kind and I think it is good to voice our opinion on the subject. There are many arguement for both sides, but it is all how you see the entire scriptures. I believe praying and asking the Holy Spirit to help us understand it is key to understanding the bible.
You ask:
>>>How can we have both the responsibility of man and accept a doctrine of predestination?
Since Jesus died for whosoever in John 3:16, it looks to me he was predestining all man kind to be able to live with Him forever, because He loves us. So I believe all men are predestine to be with God, but not all take the path prepared for them. They think they are to wise, noble or might to depend on God.
The road is now paved and we must make the decision to accept His free gift of salvation or reject it.
The bible is all about God's loves for mankind. So if this is true, and I believe it is, then I don't think the love of God is about creating billions of people so He can burn them in hell. I don't think anyone was predestine to go to hell. People send themselves there by rejecting God's predesigned plan for their lives.
We can play ping pong with this for a very long time. Such as you stated:
>>> " I do not believe that God sends people to Hell because He wants them to go there. They receive their punishment because of the decision to reject Jesus Christ. "
That is the whole point of what I am saying. We must make the decision that God has given us. God is God and he can give us this decision to make if He likes. I understand that Calvinist do not believe we have the opportunity to be able to make a decision.
But I for one want to keep my eyes on Jesus Christ because I know for sure if we don't know Him we will never spend eternity with Him regardless of what "ism" we are.
I am enjoying the discussion on this subject because I love to talk about God's word. But I just don't see it through the Calvinist lense.
Such as you posted:
"but to those who are called [those who believe], both the Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." [v.24]
I agree with this, as you have [those who believe] the called are those that believe.
so the below by what you have posted would mean:
In verse 26, Paul makes it plain that not all are called. (Paul is saying not all will believe) this is a true statement when comparing it with the entire bible and the meaning of it.
"For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise
according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called." [v.26]
Not many means that people who think they are wise, mighty or noble will believe.
Just sharing my thoughts on this.
David
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CHEWY
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Let me start out by stating that 1 Corinthians [Ch. 1] begins with statements by Paul dealing with contentions among the believers of that day, that are not so different than what we have here in this thread. In verse 18, Paul begins to explain the proper beliefs that they [we] should hold to avoid division. He states...
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing [lost], but to us who are being saved [as salvation is incomplete until the glorification at the end of time] it is the power of God." [v.18]
"...it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." [v.21] He will explain who "those who believe" are in v.24.
"but we preach Christ crucified to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness," [v.23]
"but to those who are called [those who believe], both the Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." [v.24]
In verse 26, Paul makes it plain that not all are called.
"For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called." [v.26]
Romans 8:29-30 states...
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
How do we explain a teaching that says all are called equally? or even sufficiently, if we see that not all are called? Do these verses suggest that there are two callings? [One a general calling of the Gospel, that is seen as foolishness by those God foreknew would reject Him, and the other a calling which couldn't be denied by those He foreknew would accept Him.]
If God foreknew who would receive Him, didn't He also know who would reject Him? Didn't He create those who would reject Him anyway? If God knew that they would reject Him, was there any possibility that they might somehow be saved?
What a heavy burden to bear, to try and understand the ways of God. His ways surely aren't our ways and His thoughts are so much higher than our thoughts.
I am just thankful that everyone on this thread is concerned enough about their salvation to be participating here. We all just want to please God by believing in the most correct way possible. We all approach this issue with presuppositions of what we have previously understood to be truth. To adjust our beliefs in these areas is quite painful
and we all should handle this issue with care and concern for those on the other side of the room.
David-
I really enjoyed your post from Spurgeon. His view on this subject is right on as far as I am concerned [See some of my previous posts] I do not believe that God sends people to Hell because He wants them to go there. They receive their punishment because of the decision to reject Jesus Christ. How can we have both the responsibility of man and accept a doctrine of predestination? Because God has commanded it. I cannot explain it nor will I try, but I will not reject it either. Most of us who are participating here believe in a triune God. [The Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] I can't even begin to explain how that these Three can be One, but it doesn't seem that we have these arguments over that issue. We just accept it and are thankful. I truly am glad that God has saved me. I was in a terrible state when Christ found me. Only He could have changed my hardened heart to the point of receiving His message of hope.
I'll be gathering information for the rest of my life, because the more I learn of God, the more I realize I don't know or understand-
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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becauseHElives
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hello jimbarn,all scripture applies to us...
read prayerfully the whole chapter paying very close attention to verse 33...
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
whosoever....always remember... whosoever
man can not come to Yahweh without Yahweh drawing him, but salvation is still to whosoever will...
Esau is a type, men and women that love the world and the pleasures of this world to much to let go.
Jacob was a deceiver but he desired Yahweh's Blessing more than anything else, so must he who receives Yeshua be, the believer sees himself a sinner but desires to be changed and will not let Yahweh go till Yahweh Blesses him.(the believer wrestles with the sin nature till victory is his) he endures till the end of himself and Christ is victor over the flesh. (and Yahweh makes him a new creature, Israel)
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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jimbarn
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I am wondering.
Reading Romans 9:16" So then it depends not on human will or exertion,but on God,who has mercy." ESV
Was this just for Isreal in Moses' time?
Investigating!
Barney
Posts: 43 | From: Unicoi,Tn. | Registered: Feb 2008
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becauseHElives
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posted
Very good David...
Very good WildB...
2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto good works."
All Scripture
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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KnowHim
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Hummm.... Good point WildB.
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WildB
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I believe that the 7000 in the time of Elija were a elect. As do I the 144,000 jews during the Tribulation.
The Election to the Body of Christ in this Age of Grace is not numbered the same way.
A reference is made to the afterward numbers.
Jude.1
[14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
David got in BIG trouble for numbering the people.
2Sam.24
[9] And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.
[10] And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
the rest of the text http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=1387775
Just some of my thoughts.......
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That is all.....
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KnowHim
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posted
Was Spurgeon Calvinist or did he believe in freewill?
Many like to claim Spurgeon as a staunch Calvinist, all the way through, but listen to what he said concerning free-will, and I quote: “I do not think I differ from any of my Hyper-Calvinistic brethren in what I do believe, but I differ from them in what they do not believe. I do not hold any less than they do, but I hold a little more, and I think, a little more of the truth revealed in the Scriptures. Not only are there a few cardinal doctrines, by which we can steer our ship North, South, East, or West, but as we study the Word, we shall begin to learn something about the North-west and North-east, and all else that lies between the four cardinal points. The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, “The Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely.” Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that “it is not of him that willeth, or of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once to Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find in one part of the Bible that everything is foreordained, that is true; and I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.”
http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm
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KnowHim
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The most important truth in Christian theology is that God is love—God loves the whole world. Calvinism fails to say clearly and unequivocally that God loves the whole world. "Since love means that you act for the welfare of those you love, predestining persons to be damned is not love"
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oneinchrist
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Hi Chewy,
I am trying not to let this get more complicated than it should. Equal opportunity comes because of the Lords promise that the gospel message will be preached to all nations before the end.
Not everyone will be saved because not everyone will repent and turn to faith in Jesus. It certainly is not the desire of God that people do not repent and place faith in Him; therefore, to say that God predestined it that way would make God the cause of the sin of unbelief. This is the real bone I have to pick with the calvinist belief.......I am not willing to attribute God as the cause of sin or even associate Him whatsoever with the cause. I believe that this false belief comes about because of the heavy emphasis on predestination and little or no consideration for the foreknowledge of God.
As far as the reasons why people refuse to repent and put faith in Christ......there are just so many(none of which I would blame God for). As far as the reasons why people accept the truth....there are also quite a few....but I would say that the most central reason is because of the message of the expressed love of God in the sacrificing of His Son, and the Son humbling himself in obedience to the will of the Father by suffering and dying for our sin so that we may be reconciled to God.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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CHEWY
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OneinChrist-
I don't want you upset. I don't intend to come across the wrong way. My beliefs are somewhat similar yet somewhat different to your own. I am trying to understand how that every person has the same equal opportunity to receive/accept Christ [Freewill]. You stated...
"My heart was convinced by the love of the gospel message."
How were you able to recognize this love and distinguish it as love, when others do not?
Thanks for responding-
Still gathering information-
Chewy-
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oneinchrist
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Hi Chewy,
It certainly is both. But the manner in which this comes about is disagreed upon by many christians. The word of God is spirit. Do you remember when Jesus said "My word is spirit?" The Word of God convicts us of sin by the love of the truth. Don't you get it? My heart was convinced by the love of the gospel message. It made my sin exceedingly sinful. It demanded a response. For most of us our conscience was conditioned by the teaching of the ten commandments. Now since our country is moving away from the strong conviction of the ten commandments we are falling away farther and farther from God.
Now as far as the holy spirit convicting. The Holy Spirit convicts by its workings in the life of believers. Do you know that the Holy Spirit bears witness where the word of truth is spoken. The comforter comes to strengthen our witness of the Lord Jesus. I agree with Hittite1963 that the Holy Spirit does not come to pay a special visit in order to enable one to believe.....unless of course it is by signs and wonders as we see recorded in the book of Acts. We christians need to realize the need for the comforter in our witness in this day and time and we had best increase in our fervency in prayer to the Lord Jesus for this help. The Lord is coming soon.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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CHEWY
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OneinChrist
Is it the Word of God or is it the Holy Ghost that convicts of sin?
And when He [Holy Spirit] has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:8
holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
Titus 1:9
to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
Jude 1:15
Apparently, according to the Scripture, the conviction of sinners comes through various sources, but ultimately heart wrenching conviction
comes from God himself whether through the Holy Ghost, the Scriptures or the Lord Himself. So I ask again,
From the Armenian perspective [freewill], does God convict all sinners the same way, with the same amount, equally among all of mankind? Or does he convict every human being sufficiently but not equally [some receive more or less conviction than others]?
Trying to gather information-
Chewy-
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oneinchrist
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If it is the word of God (the truth) that causes conviction of sin------how can we say that someone is more or less convicted than another?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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CHEWY
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Let me ask this from another angle.
From the Armenian perspective [freewill], does God convict all sinners the same way, with the same amount, equally among all of mankind? Or does he convict every human being sufficiently but not equally [some receive more or less conviction than others]?
Trying to gather information-
Chewy-
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TB125
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I think that Jesus made it very clear as to who or what is going to lead sinners to belief in him when he shared some very basic and timely teaching with his disciples just prior to his arrest and crucifixion and his anticipated return to the Father. Note this teaching: quote:
But I tell you the truth: It is good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he WILL CONVICT THE WORLD OF GUILT IN REGARD TO SIN and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to rightousness, because I am going to the Father....But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. (John 16:7-10, 13)
Note that Jesus did not tell these disciples that he was going to leave them with a collection of inspired writings that would convict skeptics, his critics, Israelites, the scribes and Pharisees, and even those who followed him (like his disciples) that he was the divine Son of God, the Savior.
I think that it is the Spirit who is the agent of convicting guilt and God's call and invitation to repent and to believe. And it is the Spirit who is the sign, seal, and transforming power that changes rebellious "dead" sinners into "new persons" in Christ. Let's not let proof-texting confuse us about this matter.
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Bob
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Michael Harrison
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Quote: Chewey
Carol-
Its O.K. I'm only trying to understand, so I have to ask questions. I promise to be very polite.
Previously posted...
We all seem to agree that some accept the Gospel while others reject it. What is it that is within one person that they accept the gift and another person that they reject it? Does the one accepting the Gospel have more understanding than the other, is it that they have more love, compassion, sympathy, or perhaps the proper combination of these?
Still gathering info-
Chewy
Rescind Quote!
quote:
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
They whom are well need not a savior. They whom suffer not, need not a savior. They whom are able, can 'do it' on their own, need not a savior. They whom are self-sufficient need not a savior. It is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Why did you believe? When you heard of His suffering, were you touched? Can you imagine someone saying, "Too bad?" What are you made of. Do you need Him? Then perhaps you will reach out to Him. These are who He came for. Are you one?
quote:
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Is it hard to choose the right way, knowing the end of things? Blessed are you if you recognize your need. Most don't. That is why they don't choose well. Pride consumes them, and blinds them to their need. They would rather be 'right' than to be wrong, because of what is implied. They will not admit their need. Tragedy does not go any deeper than this.
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CHEWY
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Carol-
Its O.K. I'm only trying to understand, so I have to ask questions. I promise to be very polite.
Previously posted...
We all seem to agree that some accept the Gospel while others reject it. What is it that is within one person that they accept the gift and another person that they reject it? Does the one accepting the Gospel have more understanding than the other, is it that they have more love, compassion, sympathy, or perhaps the proper combination of these?
Still gathering info-
Chewy
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Eden
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So what kind of free will is being talked about? Earth free will, or free will to get into heaven?
It seems clear to me from earth free will, that people have a lot of choices, especially in relatively free democratic countries like Western Europe and North America and where capitalism and entrepreneurialism is in use.
And within each country, we have people making decisions to be a criminal (hello...free will), to be an accountant (hello...free will), to be a nice person (hello...free will). All our decisions, and we make many of them as we go along each day are the exercise of our free will.
Clearly we have free will on earth. But what role does this earthly free will play in becoming a partaker of eternal life through Jesus Christ?
We on earth clearly have free will. But, our free will on earth is also limited and reduced by two things.
1. By our incomplete experiences of the past; and
2. By our fear of the future (of death).
Part of our free will is pre-occupied with those two things (incomplete experiences of the past and fear of the future).
As memory in a computer, so also some of our memory is taking up by our free will (or decision-making process) still trying to deal with our incomplete past experiences and our fear of the future.
And so, as an estimate, maybe we have 60% of our free will ability at our disposal in the here and now. And with that 60% free will we have to choose or not choose Jesus.
And, when it comes to using our earthly free will, whether we can choose Jesus or not, the threshold test to be adopted into the family of God is threshold test set up by God and by Jesus, and not by us.
Thus whatever threshold test God and Jesus choose, also will determine who is going to be able to accept that threshold test.
And this is the threshold test: "I believe that Jesus is the Son of God" and "I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead" (Romans 10:9-10)
But who is able to accept that threshold test set up by God and by Jesus?
MOST persons born into an Islamic family will not be able to accept the threshold test that it takes to be adopted into the family of God.
And MOST persons born into a Hindu family will not be able to accept that threshold test for being adopted into the family of God.
So compared to a west European or a north American, the earthly free will of those religions will be more limited and less free to choose than the free wills of west Europeans and north Americans, for example.
In addition, within the family circle itself, if there was filial love of family, such a person will be emotionally and psychologically more able to see love and accept love from the Lamb and from the King.
And a person battered and abused all their life, physically or verbally, may have less of an ability to choose Jesus, being "just about angry at the world by now".
And so on. From the above I conclude that our earthly free will can make a lot of decisions, and that our family history can limit our free will, and also that the threshold test chosen by God and Jesus, only certain types of free will can accept that kind of threshold, of Jesus resurrection.
1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
So when it comes to having a free will on earth for heaven, the threshold test that was decided upon limited the Islamics and Hindus, to name a few. Some of them have become Christians, yes, but the Christians are few among them. The threshold test itself limited their free will.
Luke 10:20
Notwithstanding, in this do not rejoice, that the spirits are subject to you; but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.
Lastly, but not least, I think that God and Jesus are able to come sovereignly on a person, perhaps when God and Jesus need that person's talents for a particular task. But that happens fairly infrequently and is the exception to the rule.
love, eden
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Carol Swenson
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Chewy,
quote:
We all seem to agree that some accept the Gospel while others reject it. What is it that is within one person that they accept the gift and another person that they reject it? Does the one accepting the Gospel have more understanding than the other, is it that they have more love, compassion, sympathy, or perhaps the proper combination of these?
Don't go there.
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Isaiah
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I'd still say it is creativity misappropriated -as the "will" seeks to create even a situation. I was merely saying that in order to create creators, it necessitated that God make them able to make choices -but that using that power inappropriately, turning it against obedience -was the beginning of all the problems we now see -as Satan sought to create a situation -a world -even universe -where he ruled and everyone could know good AND evil. We do not have freedom of choice as many would define it -we have one choice -and making the right choice allows us to create infinitely. How much of your life and circumstances did you choose, anyway?
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hittite1963
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In one sense no one is ever really free. Since all have sinned (Romans 3:23) and Jesus teaches that the one who sins is a slave of sin (John 8:34), we are either slaves of righteousness (Romans 6:18-19) or slaves of sin.
Yet that doesn't mean that the slave of Christ can't do wrong--John says a Christian can (I John 2:1). Nor does that mean that a slave of sin, can't do good--Cornelius certainly did good things (Acts 10:2).
The issue is that sin that has not been washed away by the blood of Christ separates us from God putting us in a state of enmity with God (Romans 8:5-8). In this state of enmity no amount of good works can ever take away a single sin. Yet man can accept the scheme of redemption even as a slave of sin. In so doing, the blood of Christ pays the price that removes this state of enmity with God. Slavery to sin does not rob us of the ability to accept the offer of salvation in Christ, nor is it necessary for the Holy Spirit to take some additional action to enable the sinner to accept the gospel. The word is the sword of the Spirit (Ephesians 6:17). The Spirit has revealed the message of the Gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16). The sinner can do just as those on the day of Pentecost did--gladly receive the word (Acts 2:41).
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Kyle Pope
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http://kmpope.home.att.net
http://www.olsenpark.com
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CHEWY
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We all seem to agree that some accept the Gospel while others reject it. What is it that is within one person that they accept the gift and another person that they reject it? Does the one accepting the Gospel have more understanding than the other, is it that they have more love, compassion, sympathy, or perhaps the proper combination of these?
Still gathering information-
Chewy
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oneinchrist
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Hi Isaiah,
I do believe that there exists a distinct difference between the will of man and creativity. Ask any parent about that who has raised children. Some kids can be much more stubborn and strong willed and some can be more creative lol (especially with their pranks)
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Isaiah
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Free will might not be quite accurate.
We were given CREATIVITY.
At the heart of creativity is the ability to make a single choice -then choices combined make elaborate creations.
We were also given the choice between LIFE and DEATH.
So -we might choose as we will -misappropriating the gift of creativity -turning it against obedience -but then we become dead.
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Bloodbought
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Hi oneinchrist,
My opinion doesn’t count for much, but scripture tells me that we are saved for a purpose. We are all members of the body of Christ to serve His purpose in different ways. Some are called to teaching the word and doctrine and others down to giving a cup of water in His name. The hand cant say to the foot what are you doing. Every member of the body has a function to play.
God bless.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Bloodbought,
Its the manner in which God goes about the choosing that I question. Let me try and explain to you what I mean. Lets take the disciples for example. They were hand-picked by Jesus Christ Himself. Or how about Paul the apostle who was struck down and blinded. Moses saw the burning bush. These were men who wrote much of the bible. They were called leaders. They knew without a thread of doubt that they were chosen for a specific purpose.
But today the "status quo" conversion comes about in the spreading of the Word of God.
You stated above that the Word does bring conviction TO SOME, but not all.....I disagree with you on that.........I believe that the Word of God brings conviction TO MANY, but that not all respond in repentance.
So, in your opinion, how can we know for certain that we are one of the chosen? and is it really all about being chosen, or is it more about the purpose for which one is chosen for? Is the holy spirits presence in our life all about being saved?, or is the holy spirits presence more about increasing the boldness in our witness of Jesus Christ?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Bloodbought, I guess I do not understand calvanism all that well......I was under the impression that (according to calvinism) man is unable to come to God or to turn to God unless the holy spirit chooses to "quicken" or regenerate them first. Man this stuff can be confusing.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Marriage is a picture of Christ and the Church.
Husbands are given this command.
Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
In marriage the Pastor will say to the man. “Will you take this woman to be your lawful wedded wife?” He will say, “I will.”
Then he will say to the bride. Will you take this man to be your lawful wedded husband?” She will say, “I will.”
Notice who it is gets to do the choosing first. It is always the men, then the bride.
It’s the same with Christ and the church. He chooses her first and then she accepts Him.
If He didn’t say, “I will,” there would be no marriage no matter how much will she had.
He doesn’t marry everyone, only the bride.
Does that simplify it?
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oneinchrist
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Hi,
Carol I really agree with you....we see the world in very similar ways. Bloodbought, I guess I do not understand calvanism all that well......I was under the impression that (according to calvinism) man is unable to come to God or to turn to God unless the holy spirit chooses to "quicken" or regenerate them first. Man this stuff can be confusing.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
In the hearing of the gospel message men can come to terms with their sin, seeing it in God's light, and turn to God for the help he needs.
It has been my understanding that the calvanist claim is that since a man cannot perform good that he cannot even turn to God in desperation.......I disagree. That seems to underestimate the ability of the Word of God to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit of man(convicting power).
Your understanding of Calvinism is incorrect, I know it can seem complicated, but they teach that there is good in the unsaved. There is some good even in one who is evil.
Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil , know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
The Word does bring conviction to some, but not all
quote:
The calvanist claim seems to be that the man can only turn to God if the Holy Spirit chooses to give him the ability to believe. That seems to show the Holy Spirit to be given the function of a respecter of persons.
He has no respect for those who come with the wrong offering.
Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
quote:
Everyone has faith in something. What matters is where we decide to put our faith/trust.
Exactly.
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Carol Swenson
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I know your question is for Chewy, but may I add something here?
I don't think it's a matter of the Holy Spirit choosing certain individuals to visit. I believe that Jesus is knocking at the door of every heart. But some people allow their conscience to become seared and their hearts to become hardened, and so they don't respond to the Savior's call.
The Word is powerful, but not everyone will listen, which, of course, is why there are so many who do not put their faith in Christ our Lord. Neither the Word of God nor the Holy Spirit have changed them because they refuse.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Chewy,
I would like to make a distinction if I may in this statement that you made above.........
"Man in his lost condition cannot perform good"
In the hearing of the gospel message men can come to terms with their sin, seeing it in God's light, and turn to God for the help he needs.
It has been my understanding that the calvanist claim is that since a man cannot perform good that he cannot even turn to God in desperation.......I disagree. That seems to underestimate the ability of the Word of God to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit of man(convicting power).
The calvanist claim seems to be that the man can only turn to God if the Holy Spirit chooses to give him the ability to believe. That seems to show the Holy Spirit to be given the function of a respecter of persons.
Everyone has faith in something. What matters is where we decide to put our faith/trust.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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MyIdeas
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God has made us free. We can choose liberty and life by following Jesus Christ or we can choose captivity and death by following the devil.
We can make any choice we like, but what we can not choose is the consequence of our actions.
An example you can choose to do drugs, but you can not choose what effects that they will have on your body. Also once you start you are in captivity. Drugs are addictive. The only way to be free of them is to choose liberty or in other words choose to follow Jesus Christ. This is demonstrative of any sin.
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CHEWY
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Hang in there. This discussion is far from over I am sure. The differences between Calvinism and Armenianism lies more in the order of the salvatory process of God. Some place regeneration before belief, some after. The Calvinist teaching has been given a blackeye by many who are so hung up on the concept of predestination that they completely ignore the responsibility of man. They are wrong.
Gathering information-
Chewy-
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Carol Swenson
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That would be crazy. I didn't even know what Calvinism was until last week. And what I've learned didn't come from Calvinist teachers. And, and..sputter...sputter...No way!
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CHEWY
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Carol-
I agree. But be overly courteous when voicing these beliefs. Some may view this as too Calvinistic.
Chewy-
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Carol Swenson
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That's what I think too. But there are religions that teach people to obey rules and laws so they can go to heaven. They are taught to earn their way to God. And don't new age teachings say that if people do some kind of hocus-pocus they can be like God and have whatever they want?
This brings us back to the original question asked by Bloodbought:
quote:
That begs the question, is it any different today? Is free will powerful enough to resist the temptation of the enemy? No. So how then are sinners going to choose Christ? They are blind and deaf; indeed they are dead if left to themselves. They need supernatural help. Adam didn’t choose to go looking for God. Instead God chose to go after him.
My answer is that we use our freedom in Christ to evangelize, to obey, and to serve.
1. The Holy Spirit works in a person's heart before he is able to receive Christ as his Lord and Savior, but the person still needs to hear the gospel and freely choose.
2. We do the work the Lord gives us to do, we don't run ahead of Him doing what we think is right, (Ishmael).
3. We know that the Lord helps those who serve Him, we don't do it of ourselves.
But then, sinners hear what we say and see what we do, and they are impressed one way or the other.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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