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Topic: Calvinism vs. Arminianism
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CHEWY
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Member # 6970
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posted
Many theologians have used this type of terminology to describe God's acts of giving grace. Common grace is viewed as the grace of God by which he gives people innumerable blessings that are not a part of salvation. In other words this grace is common to all people and is not restricted to believers only.
Saving grace would be that grace by which God issues salvation. [Believers only]
Examples...
Common grace - Every breath that is taken by human beings comes from God's common grace. By God's common grace the earth does not produce only thorns and thistles. See also Psalm 145:9,15-16.
Every human alive [even those who deny His existence] have a given knowledge of God. This given knowledge would be a form of common grace, because this generic knowledge has allowed men to fashion all forms of false religions. God's common grace among men can also be seen in man's ability to know truth, or even right from wrong. All science and technology carried out by non-Christians can be viewed as coming from God's common grace. God's common grace among mankind also is seen as that grace which prevents man from being as evil as he could be. God's warnings of final judgment are viewed by many as coming from God's common grace, because they went out to all of the world and not to believers only.
Saving grace is separated from common grace because it is given only in salvation.
You didn't find it in your Strong's Concordance because it isn't labeled in this fashion through the Scriptures. This labeling was made for understanding the difference between the grace of God that sends rain to the just and the unjust, and the grace which saves our souls.
Hope this explains some of the concept.
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Chewy,
I noticed your question up there. I dont believe that I have ever heard the term saving grace. In fact I dont see any reference to saving grace in my strongs concordance. This makes it difficult to understand exactly what you are trying to figure out. You may need to elaborate a little.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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CHEWY
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posted
Have a safe trip and may God be with you and protect you.
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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KnowHim
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posted
I will be out of town for the next 3 days so I am not ignoring anyones posts. I am leaving in about 30 minutes so I don't have time to respond right now.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by CHEWY:
It isn't that they have that much control over me, It is simply that they have requested that I not stir up anything. I have chosen to heed their advice. My views are both similar and different. What I am doing now is simply searching information, as I don't want to end up unregistered..
Chewy-
Once again if you don't push Calvinism on anyone and are polite to others that will not be a problem.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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CHEWY
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I suppose I don't really see faith and believing as being the same thing. Faith is given by the Holy Spirit to different people in different measures as He sees fit. Believing is something we do. So I see belief as more of a work [function/duty]than anything else. If you don't see belief as a work, what would you define it as?
The interesting thing about faith and belief is that even if they are different as I have stated above, you can't have one without the other.
The word believe is a word that Satan has subtly been able to change the meaning of. For example, my wife may ask me if I have seen her keys. My response is likely to be, "I believe they are on the dresser." This is an untrue statement at that point. I don't believe they are on the dresser, I simply know that I saw them there previously. Who knows where they actually are, yet I use this word "believe" in this place of maybe or perhaps. This change in meaning has effected many peoples' theology. Their theology consists of perhaps there is a God, so I choose the God of the Bible. This is far different from believing in your heart.
Belief too has varying levels from day to day. Oh Lord I believe, but help me with my unbelief. Some days I am more rock solid than others. I don't stop believing but my level of belief is weaker. I have seen this in all of us. Sin in itself stems from unbelief in all of us. Even though I am saved, I still fall short. These falls come from a lack of faith and/or belief.
I stated that faith must come before saving grace as grace comes through faith. No one has replied to this comment. Does everyone agree with this?
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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CHEWY
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posted
It isn't that they have that much control over me, It is simply that they have requested that I not stir up anything. I have chosen to heed their advice. My views are both similar and different. What I am doing now is simply searching information, as I don't want to end up unregistered..
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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Michael Harrison
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Belief is the seed of faith. And we realize that, “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” The reason for this is that He will not overpower us with His will; therefore, when He sees belief, He is able to fill it, where He will not before then. Therefore, wise are we to believe. To believe is to receive, is to have our belief bolstered by His uplifting faith like wind in sails. "Faith is the 'substance' of things hoped for, evidence of the thing unseen." This is why it says that faith is not of ourselves: If He sees that we believe, He honors this.
Now, like David said, belief is not something by which we make something happen, for that would be according to our own will. We don’t make it happen. If we believe according to the truth, that is, according to His will, He will make it happen. It is His works!
Thanks so much for that. That was good!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by CHEWY:
I have been asked to withhold my views [on Calvinism vs Armenianism] for the time being and just monitor the debate. So for now, I will honor this request from someone I have high regards for.
However, I will ask some questions, just to find foundations of differing view points.
Ephesians 2:8 states - "For by grace are ye saved through faith..."
Saving grace has to come through faith, so I see it as safe to say that faith is present before saving grace is applied.
Romans 10:9 states - "That if you confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Question - Are faith and believing in your heart the same thing?
I will await replies.
David,
Sorry I missed the bottom of your post. I said I have a hard time believing it, not that I don't believe it.
Chewy-
Chewy,
I am sorry that someone has so much control over you that you can not express your views. I know it was not me as I said just don't push your views on someone on this board. But discussing your views without trying to put someone down and belittling them is fine. As long as it is not a salvation issue or a false gosple.
>>> Question - Are faith and believing in your heart the same thing?
I would think so, but the way you have giving the question leaves me wondering what your getting at. I guess it all depends on how you look at it.
In the verses you have given, the below is what these words mean to me.
Ephesians 2:8 states - "For by grace are ye saved through faith..."
“by grace” - God’s grace is the source of our salvation.
“through faith” - Paul does not say on account of faith.
Romans 10:9 states - "That if you confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
“believe in thine heart” – means a person will act on what they know. If you actually believe Jesus rose from the dead, you will tell people and you will know it is true. You will live it out so to say.
But if you are meaning you think faith or believing is a work on our behalf, I do not beleive it is.
There is nothing we can do to save ourselves. Grace is God's unmerited favour - none of us are good enough to be saved, to earn it or merit it - so we need God's grace to save us. The medium of our salvation is our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. When we place our faith in Him alone, He saves us, makes us new creatures, adopts us as His children, etc. We did nothing to deserve salvation. We only acknowledge that Jesus Christ did it all for us.
Maybe you can clarify what you are meaning with your question.
Plow on, plow on...
David C
P.S.
Some people try to make belief a work when it is not. What is necessary for salvation is belief, not works (except the works of Christ!). If you are wanting to make believing the gospel a work the believer does. It is simple to me that believing the gospel is not a work.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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CHEWY
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I have been asked to withhold my views [on Calvinism vs Armenianism] for the time being and just monitor the debate. So for now, I will honor this request from someone I have high regards for.
However, I will ask some questions, just to find foundations of differing view points.
Ephesians 2:8 states - "For by grace are ye saved through faith..."
Saving grace has to come through faith, so I see it as safe to say that faith is present before saving grace is applied.
Romans 10:9 states - "That if you confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Question - Are faith and believing in your heart the same thing?
I will await replies.
David,
Sorry I missed the bottom of your post. I said I have a hard time believing it, not that I don't believe it.
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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CWO4GUNNER
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Jesus gave so many story/parable examples of the judment and the kingdom of heaven because he knew as short stories they would stick in our minds and be played over and over in our minds by the Holy Spirit as he intended. Over and over again it is made clear that salvation is not through the acknowledgment of God and just for a few (fools), but through knowing and walking with God who's will it is that all men be saved. By being branches in the vine of Jesus Christ, pruned by the Father and filled with the Holy Spirit who gives us the power to bare fruit, and be raise incorruptible in the image of Christ. While the rest who proclaim freedom from baring fruit are stacked and burned forever!
Those who preach these lies (Once saved always saved because they are special ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif) ) are blind by their own lust for the world and their need to serve two masters, doing rather the work of their father and the ruler of this world system with a false doctrine and a false holy spirit.
These type are twice dead and the only way you can fight them is with the whole armorer of God for which they always run and have little defense as you have witnessed.
I love them all for Christ sake because they are made in the image of God like all men saved, unsaved, and evil. Nevertheless having studied and rejected the truth these people willfully and knowingly pervert the Gospel of Christ, eager to create new lost converts by using the facilities of the church while we sleepwalk. It is our duty to engaging their lies with the full fervor of God's spiritual armorer, cutting off their empty words and poisonous beliefs with the sword, and splaying their harts open to the truth toward repentance. In any event stopping the spreading of their dead fruit among us and to those that parish and to so many of us they will carry away with them to their doom.
With everything that the Holy Spirit has revealed to us in Gods word, his warnings and how Paul, Jude and John just to name a few had to fight their type in the early church harshly with the Spirit. They warned us to hold them off wherever possible as they are still with us today, taking as many as they can.
If we don't learn how to draw close to the Holy Spirit and fight the good fight against these servants of darkness, we will also succumb as they have, especially as the days grow more evil and they are finally empowered temporarily to do us serious damage. The days are coming soon when we may have to resist the persecution of flesh and blood as so many already do around the world. Regardless God will judge them all with his word and in the end their perverted arguments will be moot before God.
Jude understood this and would repeat himself if he were here today.
These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. Jude 1 :12-16 ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif) ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
Posts: 54 | From: Bullhead City, AZ | Registered: Jan 2008
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by CHEWY:
Having spent much time studying this topic, I have concluded that certain essences of both exist. If we believe that God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, sovereign, etc..., predestination has a place in theology. However, if we are to truly evangelize to all of the nations, bringing people directly to the point of choice is necessary. You are correct in that this is not a salvatory issue. However, I have a hard time believing that as you quoted...
"I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian,"
when you allow one view to be promoted here and not the other.
Chewy-
Chewy,
I have already reconsidered this, please read my post to waynemlj above. I have copied it and posted it below also:
Calvinism vs. Arminianism
First of all I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I know one thing for sure. You can be the ism you want to be, but if you don’t know Jesus Christ you are on your way to hell.
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The Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate has been going on for a very long time.
It is not a salvation issue.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.
After much thought on this subject I have decided that it is a topic that people need to discuss. So I have decided that you are welcome to share your views on it.
BUT, don’t push it on people and don’t turn ever topic into a debate about Calvinism. There are many more topics that are more important.
I to have enjoyed some of your other post.
PEACE
-------------------------------
Sorry if you don't believe that I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian. But that is OK, there are a lot of things I don't believe. If you read my posts on this message you will notice that.
I said, "don’t push it on people and don’t turn ever topic into a debate about Calvinism.".
So if we are going to discuss it I am sure all the Calvinist teachings will come out.
But if it is one's intention of coming on here to convert people to this way of thinking, and it starts to be a problem. Then I will deal with it then.
My bible tells me Jesus died so all can come to Him. I don't think all people are saved. Only the ones that come to know Him personally.
You can Click Here to see what I believe it means to know Jesus personally.
So CHEWY please tell me what you believe about Jesus Christ?
Plow on, plow on...
David
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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CHEWY
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Having spent much time studying this topic, I have concluded that certain essences of both exist. If we believe that God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, sovereign, etc..., predestination has a place in theology. However, if we are to truly evangelize to all of the nations, bringing people directly to the point of choice is necessary. You are correct in that this is not a salvatory issue. However, I have a hard time believing that as you quoted...
"I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian,"
when you allow one view to be promoted here and not the other.
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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Michael Harrison
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It would be humorous if it wasn't so serious! I've looked and now i know. I will not for the moment mention that name casually (casually isn't the name). But I am not one. What i find funny is that there are those who want to accuse me of being one of those (anything to discredit the message). From whence cometh it? I stand with Paul:
"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."(Rom 2:16)
The message is that: Jesus can live through you, or He can be stonewalled. Do you stonewall Him? Do you stonewall Him not knowing you do? Or do you put Him off with Theological jibberish which you both cling to to justify yourself, and also to diminish your well meaning peers who present the clear message? You can't justify error. If it is not Jesus, it is error. It is possible to know.
Does Jesus live, or you? You either minister Jesus, or you minister darkness. Who would want to minister darkness? Remember that satan can masquerade as an angel of light.
Do you remember when Jesus rebuked Peter? Was it Peter that Jesus rebuked? No! On the heavenly level, satan was behind Peter, and Peter, not being spiritual, yielded to satan by his thought and intent, even though to him it was well meaning. It was not the Spirit. Our lives are like that when we are in error, and particularly when we defend error, for we are accountable to Him concerning whom we minister.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
The word will expose, if we are honest with ourselves, and with the word:
Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
It is sad when we can't discuss it for our minds being blinded:
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
The goal of discussion is to point, or lead the way to Christ! That means really, the enabling of His life through us by enlightenment of the TRUTH (which is His desire), truth of Him, and enlightenment of His saving life in us. Refutation does not accomplish this, but it is what we do best. It keeps the eyes off of the goal, where we (some at least) would rather direct attention to His face. The sonshine of life, and the understanding - is there!
There are some things for which it is tragic of one to disagree. But we try to illustrate His grace!
(Did i just say what oneinchrist said?)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
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Some of this nonsense wears me out and I despise any doctrine that seems to make God out to be partial in His love towards us. I'm not surprised that the message of repentance that needs to be strong in this day and time disappears in this "rubbish". I'm sorry guys. I had to let some steam off.
Man has free-will. Lets use it to give glory to God. Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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CWO4GUNNER
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CALVINISM! "THE OTHER" GOOD NEWS? NOT!
literal and idiomatic rendering of the Original Greek Texts: Galatians 1:6-9
I wonder that ye are so quickly removed from Him who did call you in the grace of Christ to another good news;
that is not another, except there be certain who are troubling you, and wishing to pervert the good news of the Christ;
but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you -- anathema let him be!
as we have said before, and now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what ye did receive -- anathema let him be! ![[mad2]](graemlins/mad2.gif)
Anathema definition:
1.a person or thing detested or loathed: That subject is anathema to him.
2.a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction.
3.a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication.
4.any imprecation of divine punishment.
5.a curse; execration.
The Galatian tragedy is a warning for us that not every quest for spirituality is in reality a quest for God. The emphasis in our day on "spirituality" and "spiritual formation" may be a way of finding God. But it may also be a way of running and hiding from God. When we are enticed by provocative books on New Age spirituality, we must remember that the Galatian Christians were trapped by a message that promised spiritual perfection but turned them away from God. Perversion of the Gospel.
The fascinating, even spellbinding teaching of some people in the Galatian churches had turned the Galatian believers away from the true gospel. Paul boldly asserts that the different gospel which is so attractive to the Galatian Christians is really no gospel at all. It is a perversion of the gospel of Christ, perpetrated by some people who are trying to cause confusion in the Galatian churches.
Probably these people claimed that their message supplemented and completed Paul's message. They would not have viewed their version of the gospel as heretical. After all, they did not deny the deity of Christ, the cross of Christ or the resurrection of Christ. They subtracted nothing from Paul's message. They only added to it.
But Paul does not allow their gospel to stand as a legitimate option. He sets forth a radical antithesis. The gospel cannot be served alongside other gospels, buffet-style. There is only one true gospel of Christ. The rest of his letter defines the true gospel in antithesis to the false gospel, so that the readers will reject the false and embrace the true.Condemnation of Perverters of the Gospel
Posts: 54 | From: Bullhead City, AZ | Registered: Jan 2008
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becauseHElives
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Amen David,
Amen Michael,
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Michael Harrison
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It's like this: Even if i am elected, God let me choose!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by waynemlj:
Hi David,
I understand that you feel a responsibility to the discussions on this Christian Message Board. It is a congregation of those who love God "because He first loved them."
waynemlj
>>> This site is a church where believers who cannot find a true church in their locale can "forsake not the assembling of themselves together."
This message board is also a place where people that do attend and assemble themselves together can talk about Jesus. This is not just a religious message board. It is dedicated to Jesus Christ and is about Him and not religion. All follower of Jesus Christ and non-believer who are seeking to know about Jesus Christ are welcome.
>>> Here we need to be free to discuss any topic that is a sincere search into the knowledge of God --some of which has been revealed to us and some of which is the hidden knowledge of God who is infinite Being.
We, on the other hand, are finite beings. We can not grasp all of the ungraspable. That's just foolishness if we think we can. God is Sovereign over all thoughts, words and deeds of every human created soul.
NO, we are not free to discuss any topic. That does not work as cultists frequently visit here trying to spread their lies and false gospels. It will not be allowed.
>>> I must ask you if you believe in predestination which the dictionary defines (Theology) as the relegation of all souls to either salvation or damnation by this act?
Yes I believe in predestination but not the way Calvinist teach it. Jesus Christ came to earth and died for the sins of the world. Meaning everyone destination can be to live with God forever. But that does not mean everyone will. Jesus Christ has offered this free gift to all, but many, many will not accept it. Thanks to our Lord Jesus Christ who provide the way. We are ask to take this good news to the world and tell all about the wonder message of what Jesus Christ has done for all.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Calvinism vs. Arminianism
First of all I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I know one thing for sure. You can be the ism you want to be, but if you don’t know Jesus Christ you are on your way to hell.
The Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate has been going on for a very long time.
It is not a salvation issue.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.
After much thought on this subject I have decided that it is a topic that people need to discuss. So I have decided that you are welcome to share your views on it.
BUT, don’t push it on people and don’t turn ever topic into a debate about Calvinism. There are many more topics that are more important.
I to have enjoyed some of your other post.
PEACE
.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
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posted
waynemlj,
I've enjoyed some of your other posts. Please, please don't push this subject. Not here.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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waynemlj
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Campbell:
quote:
Originally posted by waynemlj:
Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. is the correct summary view of God's revelation to us in the Bible.
waynemlj
No more warnings. DO NOT TEACH calvinism on this website.
Calvanism is based on a limited and crippled understanding of Scripture.
Jesus died so all can live.
The Bible says:
1. It’s a choice to reject God just like it is a choice to receive him, he won’t force anybody to be with him; remember God is love
God will give you what you really want; you either want God or you do not want God, there clearly is no other option
· Hebrews 9:11-12 By his blood our salvation is secured in heaven and nothing else, it was a more perfect sacrifice
· Matthew 5:20 I warn you, unless you obey God better than teachers of the Law; you can’t enter into Heaven
· Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say Lord, Lord, The desive issue is whether they obey my father in heaven, I will say I never knew you
· Matthew 24:51 He will tear the servant apart and banish him with the hypocrites. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth
· Matthew 25:30 Cast this unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth
· Mark 13:13(b) but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved
· Luke 6:46 And why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say
· Luke 13:3, 5 Except you repent ye shall likewise perish
· Luke 16:13You cannot serve two masters
· Luke 16:16-17 The Law didn’t lose it’s force it became stronger
· John 5:29 Those who have done good will rise to eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to judgement
· John 8:47 He that is of God hearth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God
· John 15:6-7 Jesus says that those who stay in him will inherit and those who don’t will be thrown into the fire
· Romans 2:7-9 He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality
· Romans 2:29 A true Jew is one who has been circumcised by the heart
· Romans 6:22-23 do things that lead to eternal life, the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life
· Romans 8:6-8 If your sinful nature controls your mind, there is death. But if the Holy Spirit controls you there is peace. 8 Those who
are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God
· Romans 11:19-25 We can be cut off if we stop trusting him, just like Israel was for unbelief; backsliders can return just like Israel
· Romans 12:1 Present yourselves a holy and living sacrifice so that Christ will accept you
· 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 Remove that man so his sinful nature will die then he will be saved
· 1 Corinthians 6:20 You do not belong to yourselves, for God bought you with a high price
· 1 Corinthians 10:1-11 Don’t forget after everything was done for Israel God destroyed them this is a warning to us
· 2 Corinthians 5:20-21 We urge you as Christ were speaking directly to you reconcile yourselves to God
· 2 Corinthians 7:10 God uses sorrow to turn us back to him by repentance, but soorow without repentance still leads to death
· 2 Corinthians 11:2-4 I fear somehow you will be led away just as Eve was
· Galatians 2:21 I am not one of those who treats the Grace of God as meaningless
· Galatians 5:19-21 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, your living by the flesh & not the spirit. You can’t please God
like this and will not inherent the Kingdom of heaven
· Ephesians 5:3-5 Don’t let yourselves fall into these sins cause you can be sure that no immoral person will inherit eternal life
· Philippians 2:12-16 Work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling, that I may have not laboured in vain
· Colossians 1:22 You must continue to believe this truth and stand in it firmly
· Colossians 2:6-7 As you accepted Christ you must continue to live in obedience to him letting him change you
· 1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 God called us to holiness, if you despise this then your rejecting God
· 1Timothy 1:20 I turned them over to Satan so they learn not to blaspheme God
· 1 Timothy 4:1 Some shall depart from the Faith, and now follow demons and doctrine of Devils
· 1 Timothy 5:11-15 Becareful of how your life is being spent, (uses widows) they can fall away and now they may be following Satan
· Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape judgement if we neglet such a great salvation
· Hebrews 3:12-13 Make sure that your hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning away from the Living God, warn everyone so that
no ones is deceived by sin and their heart is hardened against God
· Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore repentance to those who knew the truth then rejected it, recrucifying Christ to the Cross
· Hebrews 10:26-27 If we willfully sin after receiving the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins
· Hebrews 12:17 Esau lost what could have been his, he cried bitterly for it, but it was too late for repentance
· James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves
· 2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye
shall never fall:
· 2 Peter 2:20-21 For someone who was saved then returns to the world, it would have been better to not have responded the first time
· 2 Peter 3:15-18 Don’t misunderstand the Grace Paul preached about, I don’t want you to lose your secure footing
· 1 John 3:7-9 You must do what is right if you have God in you, if you continue in sin you belong to the devil
· Jude 4-7 False teachers say with Grace you can continue in sin, but let me warn you God didn’t spare the Angels already with him
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white rainment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life
· Exodus 32:33 Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book
· Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous
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Hi David,
I understand that you feel a responsibility to the discussions on this Christian Message Board. It is a congregation of those who love God "because He first loved them."
This site is a church where believers who cannot find a true church in their locale can "forsake not the assembling of themselves together."
Here we need to be free to discuss any topic that is a sincere search into the knowledge of God --some of which has been revealed to us and some of which is the hidden knowledge of God who is infinite Being.
We, on the other hand, are finite beings. We can not grasp all of the ungraspable. That's just foolishness if we think we can. God is Sovereign over all thoughts, words and deeds of every human created soul.
I must ask you if you believe in predestination which the dictionary defines (Theology) as the relegation of all souls to either salvation or damnation by this act?
waynemlj
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jiggyfly
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As I have said in this forum before I find both Canvinism and Arminianism in error.
If God's Word accomplishes what He sent it to do and Jesus is God's Word and Jesus said His purpose is to do the will of His Father.
John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Colossians 1:18&20
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
1Corinthians 15:22&23
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
Philippians 2:9-11
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Ephesians 1:9&10
9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
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Carol Swenson
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posted
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
quote:
All i know is that i feel really fortunate to have been called, and blessed to have been able to believe. I don't know that i was 'elected'.
Yea! That works:
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Michael Harrison
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I read wayoflife.org 's piece. There seems to be some strange stuff going on with ol Cal, sure enough. His stance on election seems to indicate staunch predetermination. ??? All i know is that i feel really fortunate to have been called, and blessed to have been able to believe. I don't know that i was 'elected'.
Yea! That works:
quote:
LOOKING UNTO JESUS
AND AT NOTHING ELSE, as our text expresses it in one untranslatable word (aphoroontes), which at the same time directs us to fix our gaze upon Him, and to turn it away from everything else.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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KnowHim
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Here's another:
Infralapsarianism
There are so many different ism's.
That is why I just like to know Jesus Christ. He is the only one that will never let you down. He is the only one's opinion that really matters in the long run.
LOOKING UNTO JESUS
AND NOT AT OUR CREEDS, no matter how evangelical they may be. The faith which saves, which sanctifies, and which comforts, is not giving assent to the doctrine of salvation; it is being united to the person of the Savior. "It is not enough," said Adolphe Monod, "to know about Jesus Christ, it is necessary to have Jesus Christ." To this one may add that no one truly knows Him, if he does not first possess Him. According to the profound saying of the beloved disciple, it is in the Life there is Light, and it is in Jesus there is Life (John 1:4).
LOOKING UNTO JESUS
AND AT NOTHING ELSE, as our text expresses it in one untranslatable word (aphoroontes), which at the same time directs us to fix our gaze upon Him, and to turn it away from everything else.
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Michael Harrison
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Chewey ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Supercalifragilisticexpialadocias! (Or however you spell it) So where did you get that big word from?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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KnowHim
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I don't want it taught on this message board.
I don't need to discuss it with anyone.
This discussion comes up ever so often and starts this same old debat. If no one starts trying to teach it or convert people to it then a debate will not get started.
We have people that just like to bring it up on ever topic.
It is not a salvation issue.
I have done research on it and don't want people coming here to try and push it on people. I read the bible and research myself. I can talk to God for my self. Don't need someone to tell me what to believe when I can pray and ask God myself.
Thank you,
David
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CHEWY
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David-
I will not teach Calvinism here but I will offer this. Calvinism in itself is not the evil you apparently take it be. The Calvinism of John Calvin maintained a full responsibility of man to choose Christ and maintain a relationship with Him. The Calvinism that you have apparently been exposed too stems from a modern day day teaching of Supralapsarianism. This teaching basically takes all need of evangelism, prayer, discerning the Spirit of God, and even a loss of love that we are so taught to maintain and throws it by the "rubbish pile." Their teaching of predestination is so strong that it leaves everything as pre-decided, and pushes one to a theory of "robotism." This is not what great teachers and preachers like Calvin, Luther, and Spurgeon taught yet they would all be considered Calvinist by the TULIP teaching. I encourage you to discuss this with your pastor [Dr. Young] for his view on this.
Chewy-
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by waynemlj:
Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. is the correct summary view of God's revelation to us in the Bible.
waynemlj
No more warnings. DO NOT TEACH calvinism on this website.
Calvanism is based on a limited and crippled understanding of Scripture.
Jesus died so all can live.
The Bible says:
1. It’s a choice to reject God just like it is a choice to receive him, he won’t force anybody to be with him; remember God is love
God will give you what you really want; you either want God or you do not want God, there clearly is no other option
· Hebrews 9:11-12 By his blood our salvation is secured in heaven and nothing else, it was a more perfect sacrifice
· Matthew 5:20 I warn you, unless you obey God better than teachers of the Law; you can’t enter into Heaven
· Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say Lord, Lord, The desive issue is whether they obey my father in heaven, I will say I never knew you
· Matthew 24:51 He will tear the servant apart and banish him with the hypocrites. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth
· Matthew 25:30 Cast this unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth
· Mark 13:13(b) but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved
· Luke 6:46 And why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say
· Luke 13:3, 5 Except you repent ye shall likewise perish
· Luke 16:13You cannot serve two masters
· Luke 16:16-17 The Law didn’t lose it’s force it became stronger
· John 5:29 Those who have done good will rise to eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to judgement
· John 8:47 He that is of God hearth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God
· John 15:6-7 Jesus says that those who stay in him will inherit and those who don’t will be thrown into the fire
· Romans 2:7-9 He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality
· Romans 2:29 A true Jew is one who has been circumcised by the heart
· Romans 6:22-23 do things that lead to eternal life, the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life
· Romans 8:6-8 If your sinful nature controls your mind, there is death. But if the Holy Spirit controls you there is peace. 8 Those who
are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God
· Romans 11:19-25 We can be cut off if we stop trusting him, just like Israel was for unbelief; backsliders can return just like Israel
· Romans 12:1 Present yourselves a holy and living sacrifice so that Christ will accept you
· 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 Remove that man so his sinful nature will die then he will be saved
· 1 Corinthians 6:20 You do not belong to yourselves, for God bought you with a high price
· 1 Corinthians 10:1-11 Don’t forget after everything was done for Israel God destroyed them this is a warning to us
· 2 Corinthians 5:20-21 We urge you as Christ were speaking directly to you reconcile yourselves to God
· 2 Corinthians 7:10 God uses sorrow to turn us back to him by repentance, but soorow without repentance still leads to death
· 2 Corinthians 11:2-4 I fear somehow you will be led away just as Eve was
· Galatians 2:21 I am not one of those who treats the Grace of God as meaningless
· Galatians 5:19-21 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, your living by the flesh & not the spirit. You can’t please God
like this and will not inherent the Kingdom of heaven
· Ephesians 5:3-5 Don’t let yourselves fall into these sins cause you can be sure that no immoral person will inherit eternal life
· Philippians 2:12-16 Work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling, that I may have not laboured in vain
· Colossians 1:22 You must continue to believe this truth and stand in it firmly
· Colossians 2:6-7 As you accepted Christ you must continue to live in obedience to him letting him change you
· 1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 God called us to holiness, if you despise this then your rejecting God
· 1Timothy 1:20 I turned them over to Satan so they learn not to blaspheme God
· 1 Timothy 4:1 Some shall depart from the Faith, and now follow demons and doctrine of Devils
· 1 Timothy 5:11-15 Becareful of how your life is being spent, (uses widows) they can fall away and now they may be following Satan
· Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape judgement if we neglet such a great salvation
· Hebrews 3:12-13 Make sure that your hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning away from the Living God, warn everyone so that
no ones is deceived by sin and their heart is hardened against God
· Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore repentance to those who knew the truth then rejected it, recrucifying Christ to the Cross
· Hebrews 10:26-27 If we willfully sin after receiving the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins
· Hebrews 12:17 Esau lost what could have been his, he cried bitterly for it, but it was too late for repentance
· James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves
· 2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye
shall never fall:
· 2 Peter 2:20-21 For someone who was saved then returns to the world, it would have been better to not have responded the first time
· 2 Peter 3:15-18 Don’t misunderstand the Grace Paul preached about, I don’t want you to lose your secure footing
· 1 John 3:7-9 You must do what is right if you have God in you, if you continue in sin you belong to the devil
· Jude 4-7 False teachers say with Grace you can continue in sin, but let me warn you God didn’t spare the Angels already with him
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white rainment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life
· Exodus 32:33 Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book
· Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous
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oneinchrist
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Hi Waynemlj,
Do you understand what I mean when I say that the doctrine of the total depravity of man could be underestimating the power of God's Word? One of the differences in the way that you and I see the world is that I see a man repenting and turning to God as a result of both the consciousness of sin that God has firmly established through the revealing of the old covenant law(holy spirit inspired) and the love of the truth in the gospel message of Jesus Christ(holy spirit inspired).
It appears to me that you do not believe that these things are sufficient enough to cause the conviction that results in mans choice to repent.......supposedly God also needs to send out the Holy Spirit to compensate for what His Word cannot accomplish in drawing us towards Him.
It has been my understanding that the "effectual" work of the Holy Spirit comes after repentance and faith towards Jesus. If that is true then God has made us all capable of repentance and faith ( no matter how little) towards Christ. Then none of us can have an excuse. It seems to me this would flow with the consistency in scripture where the unbelievers are chastisted as being disobedient to God.
Repent, be baptized in the Name of Jesus, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
With love in Christ,Daniel
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Michael Harrison
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Did He determine who would be saved before He began?
Jesus is an equal opportunity savior! Why bother to pray for someone whom He did not predetermine would be saved. In other words, why shouldn't you just be able to know whom He predetermined so that you can pray only for those people? What if the ones you care about are not on His list?
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We are 'created unto' good works. Doesn't sound like we can 'initiate them'.
But the second part is on topic. Who is ordained, and when. Clearly He 'before ordained' what, not 'who'.
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waynemlj
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My reply is to all who made a reply to this topic of Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, etc.
First, I would like to make a distinction I think would be helpful. The acrostic T.U.L.I.P. was simply Calvin's short-term of the truth of the Bible.
We need to stop calling Limited Atonement Calvin's idea. It wasn't his idea!
It's God's idea.
Nor was the Total Depravity of man Calvin's idea. It's God's revelation of the wickedness of the human heart. Jerimiah 17:9, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
God destroyed the whole earth in the Flood for very good reason.
Christ died for His sheep. He gave His life a ramsom for "many," not for all. That means He effected salvation (without fail) for those for whom He died.
John 17 clearly states from the lips of Jesus that He was going to die for those the Father gave Him.
The words "world" , "all" need to be read in the context of the whole Bible. They mean different things in different contexts.
John 17:9, "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those you have given me, for they are yours."
Obviously, we have to see that Jesus, before the foundation of the world, made a covenant with His Father to die for those the Father Elected beforehand that Jesus should die for.
That has no limitation on the great commission Jesus gave to go out and tell everyone about the Gospel of salvation.
We don't know the hidden knowledge of God. Therefore, the next person you meet in an elevator might be one that God wants you or me or any Christian to talk to about God's wonderful plan of salvation!
No, it wasn't Calvin who wrote the Bible, it was the Holy Spirit. So, let's begin by letting Calvin off the hook and turn to God for His revelation of just how lost we really are without His choosing us.
Jesus clearly told His disciples in John 15:16, "You did not choose me, but I chose you."
And if you want a picture of total depravity of Fallen man, Ephesians 2:1-10 will do nicely, "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience -- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind and were by nature children of wrath . . . For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works . . . "
How do dead men choose? Those of us who are saved are saved solely by the Election of God (for reasons we cannot fathom) by his removing our heart of stone and giving us a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 11:19) that we might THEN be able to receive the gift of faith.
We had nothing to do with it accept respond to His "irresistible" grace.
Jesus came and died for His Church ONLY to present it to the Father at the end of the age "wthout spot or wrinkle." He did not fail in His work.
Jesus also told us that more people are going to hell than to heaven, Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
It's pretty clear to me that we'll have to argue with God about what Calvin only summarized directly from God's infallible and inerrant Word.
Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. is the correct summary view of God's revelation to us in the Bible.
waynemlj
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
David,
I posted this because there are people, including myself, who don't know anything about this debate, or what issues are involved, or the definition of terms. I deleted the concluding statements that suggest, as you say:
quote:
Sounds like a modern day I'm OK, your OK essay to me. Just easy to slip into, just do your own thing it does not really matter.
I will delete all of it if you want. But I hope you will allow it so those of us who are not familiar with this subject can learn what issues are involved.
It does matter. It matters a great deal. Maybe I should have deleted the concluding statements before posting, but they seemed to present a third point of view - a "best of both worlds" idea - that should also be addressed. If the explanations here are not correct, please help me to know what would be better to use. I don't want to offer bad information to people.
Carol,
I did not ask you to delete it.
I was just voicing my opinion. I do this alot as knowing Jesus Christ and following Him is a passion for me. I was just stating how the article sounded.
I agree it is good if people know what these terms mean it does make a difference.
Plow on, plow on...
David
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Michael Harrison
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Yea! I mean, we can't tell someone that they have no chance. We are not God! How would we know. In fact, that would be damnuhbl. "Whosoever shall say to their brother 'thou fool' will be in danger of hellfar." But this has been informative, between what you said, and David said about TULIP. Now I am going to have to learn this Calvin guy to see what is up. I don't like to take second hand info on anyone. You know?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Carol Swenson
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Hi Michael,
I didn't know anything about the debate between the Cals and Arms either! Maybe by getting the information up-front and obvious, we can prevent someone who is seeking from being told that he has no chance. Who knows, maybe he was told that before, and will now be given an opportunity to realize that it's not true. That Jesus Christ is for all who come to Him in faith.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
I am sure if before I came to know Jesus Christ some one come up to me and told me the Calvinist point of view and I had been living like a heathen like I did before I came to know Jesus. Over 20 years of disobedience I surely would not think I would have a chance since it sure looked like I was not one of the elect. I would have just given up and I would still be on my way to hell.
Thank God for the followers of Jesus Christ that shared the GOOD NEWS that Jesus died for all and he is calling you. Repent and come to know Him.
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) Amen!
I think it was a good discussion. It provokes thought.
I don’t know about the argument between these Cals and Arms. It sounds to me like it is best once one has: “tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,” (Heb 6:5 ) if one takes nothing for granted, and he/she fears the possible loss of their soul from deliberate, fearless disobedience. Scripture clearly supports not assuming, or taking for granted what is done on our behalf, in volumes that would be too overburdening for a single post.
It is this simple: God is able to save you and keep you to the end; however, He will not crash your will to make you. He will not beat the doors down either before you know Him, or after. You have a vibrant choice, though you may have the help of the Spirit in coming to a point of decision.
Anyway, once He has touched you and made you to know His being, it seems that you are more responsible to Him, than you were before you knew Him, because you know Him. I mean….Duh! Tis why we read:
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
God will woo you, but He will not make the decision for you. He is not that way. Nevertheless, to keep it confusing, if one were debating between the two:
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
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Carol Swenson
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Hi oneinchrist,
quote:
Does anyone understand me? I just think there is risk in embracing the entire doctrine of "total" depravity....the risk of underestimating the power of God's Word.
I understand you. And I agree with what you're saying. People are turning away from God more and more and thinking that it doesn't matter. Or that His written Word is not true.
They've been taught that everything was created by evolution and natural selection, and God is not real. Or they believe in other religions. Or they believe in Calvinism. Until yesterday, I didn't have a clue what Calvinism taught. Or they follow people like Joel Olsteen. Or they want to continue in their sins.
But the Word of God will not return to Him void. We can be sowers of the Seed, praise God!
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oneinchrist
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Thanks Carol for the summary on Calvinism and arminianism.
It seems to me (maybe I am alone on this) that the doctrine of depravity could be showing the Word of God(Ex: 10 commandments and gospel message) to be powerless and ineffective. It appears that calvinism does'nt adress the point that I am trying to make that....... if man was unable to turn to God in repentance, would'nt that show God's word to be powerless to convict him of sin?
Unable to do good (in the sight of God) is one thing, but unable to turn to God in repentance and faith can be another, right? When we turn to God even with a mustard seed of faith, God will help it to grow and blossom.
Does anyone understand me? I just think there is risk in embracing the entire doctrine of "total" depravity....the risk of underestimating the power of God's Word.
.....and just how helpless has God really made us? There are amazing inventions, military intelligence, life-saving technology, and you are going to tell me that someone looks over at the dusty bible on the bookshelf and they have no idea what it pertains to........cmon.......who among us has not been raised by parents who have instilled in us a conscience by the teaching of the 10 commandments? I think we need to face the fact that we live in a country where people have just turned their backs on God for so long that God has allowed thier hearts to be filled with the deceitfullness of sin. Many people just like sin. That is a fact of life. They do not want to change and they dont want anyone to tell them how they should be living.
Its not that God does'nt desire to save them, its that they do not want to turn to God because that means that they would have to change from being happy, rich, and sensual to being despised and hated.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Carol Swenson
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David,
I posted this because there are people, including myself, who don't know anything about this debate, or what issues are involved, or the definition of terms. I deleted the concluding statements that suggest, as you say:
quote:
Sounds like a modern day I'm OK, your OK essay to me. Just easy to slip into, just do your own thing it does not really matter.
I will delete all of it if you want. But I hope you will allow it so those of us who are not familiar with this subject can learn what issues are involved.
It does matter. It matters a great deal. Maybe I should have deleted the concluding statements before posting, but they seemed to present a third point of view - a "best of both worlds" idea - that should also be addressed. If the explanations here are not correct, please help me to know what would be better to use. I don't want to offer bad information to people.
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KnowHim
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Sounds like a modern day I'm OK, your OK essay to me. Just easy to slip into, just do your own thing it does not really matter.
It does matter. To teach that Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world but just for some is just plain wrong.
I am sure if before I came to know Jesus Christ some one come up to me and told me the Calvinist point of view and I had been living like a heathen like I did before I came to know Jesus. Over 20 years of disobedience I surely would not think I would have a chance since it sure looked like I was not one of the elect. I would have just given up and I would still be on my way to hell.
Thank God for the followers of Jesus Christ that shared the GOOD NEWS that Jesus died for all and he is calling you. Repent and come to know Him.
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13 (KJV)
If you do the above you will come to know God. That is what my bible states.
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him. - John 14:21
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. - Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV)
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2 (KJV)
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. John 1:29 (KJV)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 (KJV)
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV)
Guess we should just toss these verses out of the bible and forget about thinking we can be saved.
NO WAY! Jesus is the good news to all. Don’t listen to people that try to tell you He did not die for you. Seek Jesus and come to know Him.
How do the ones that think they are the special ones that Jesus died for know they are the elect and think you are not. Well that is full of pride. My bible does not teach pride.
Tell people about the good news of Jesus and don’t stop. He loves everyone and died for all.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
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Calvinism vs. Arminianism - Whose Will?
Introduction
Free-will remains one of the more highly debated topics among Christians. An extension of this conflict arises with the idea of predetermined salvation. Has God given man the choice to choose or reject His gift? Or has God predetermined each individual’s fate? Two separate theologies, Calvinism and Arminianism, grew in response to these questions. Both groups agree that "for God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him will have everlasting life" (John 3:16). However, the difference lies in the cause of that belief. Does God allow man to choose or cause man to choose? Soteriology, or the study of how salvation is obtained, touches the context of free will, election, atonement, sanctification, eternal security, grace, works of man, works of the Holy Spirit and the purpose of evil. Although the Bible says that salvation comes from Jesus Christ alone, people continue to debate about the extent to which man can exercise his choice. Do we choose to follow God or did He choose us to choose Him?
Total Depravity vs. Free Will
According to the Calvinist belief, man’s inclination to sin has ensnared his will. Even though he can make choices according to his nature, man’s character has been so corrupted that he can never choose what is pure. Calvinists point to verses in Mark 7:21-23 and Romans 3:10-12, which say that man’s heart is utterly wicked and that no one seeks God because they have all wandered down the wrong path. Thus, man cannot accept Christ without God’s intervention. In essence, Calvinism states that man only has the free will to choose evil and that he does not have the capacity to choose God.
On the other hand, Arminianism says that man’s sinful nature has not completely hindered his ability to choose God. Rather, Arminians believe that man can freely choose good or evil. They read John 3:16 and emphasize the phrase "whoever believes in Him", as it seems to indicate man has a choice to accept or reject Christ. In John 7:17, the prophet writes, "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." This highlights man’s capacity to choose God. Arminians say that, through choice and faith, man can receive God’s gift of salvation.
Unconditional Election vs. Conditional Election
Because man cannot choose salvation for himself, Calvinists conclude that God makes the ultimate choice. God must have predestined man’s salvation since man’s sinful free will can only reject Him. In Romans 8:29, Paul tells the Christians that for those God foreknew, He also predestined to follow Christ. Calvinism looks at Ephesians 1:4-5, "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will." Based on their interpretation of these verses and others, Calvinists believe that God has foreknown and predetermined who will choose Him. According to His sovereign election, God elects people out of the goodness and mercy within His heart. Hence, Calvinism holds to their belief of unconditional election.
Like Calvinists, Arminians believe that God foreknows who will choose Him. However, although they agree that God predestined His plan for salvation, they do not believe God predetermined man’s salvation. To support their theory, Arminianism cites Acts 2:21 where it says that anyone who cries out to God will be saved. Because of their belief that God’s election is based on the choices of mankind, Arminians believe in conditional election. Since God already knows who will accept Him, He has called them the elect. Consequently, the decision to accept salvation is entirely dependent upon man’s free will. God, therefore, has no role in man’s acceptance of His gift.
Limited Atonement vs. Universal Atonement
If God only chose a fixed number to be His elect, did His son’s death and resurrection atone for the sins of all? Calvinists do not believe so; rather, they believe in limited atonement. They believe that, although Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient for the entire human race, it provided only the effectual atonement. Essentially, Christ died only for those He had chosen. Calvinism places emphasis on Isaiah 53:12 and Matthew 20:28, which both point out that Christ gave His life for many, rather than all.
However, the Arminians believe in universal atonement, the idea that Christ died for every human being throughout time. From the Arminian perspective, Christ’s death and resurrection gave all of humanity the opportunity to accept Him. They believe that, through faith and Christ’s sacrifice, everyone has the choice to receive salvation. 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 speaks about how God died for all. Arminianism support their belief with the verse in 1 John 2:2, where the apostle writes, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
Irresistible Grace vs. Obstructable Grace
As an extension of the Calvinist belief of unconditional election, Calvinism also believes in irresistible grace. Since God has already predetermined who will receive salvation, His elect cannot resist His grace. God calls all people to repentance through the ‘outer call’, which can be rejected. However, God extends the ‘inner call’ to the elect alone, and this call cannot be resisted. Romans 9:16 says that salvation does not come from man's desire or effort, but is given as a result of God's mercy. Calvinists refer to Philippians 2:13, where Paul writes, "For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Salvation, therefore, comes from God’s compassion on man, rather than man’s free will choice to accept Him.
Alternatively, Arminians simply believe in one call, in which God shares the Gospel, giving each individual the opportunity to accept or reject His gift of salvation. Contrary to irresistible grace, Arminians believe in obstructable grace. Not only does man have the capacity to choose God; he also has the capability to reject God’s grace. In Stephen’s speech to the Sanhedrin, he exclaims, "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" Arminianism looks to John 1:12, which reads, "To all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." For the Arminian, man must choose for themselves whether or not they will receive God’s grace.
Perseverance of the Saints vs. Falling from Grace
Because Calvinists believe God preordained man’s salvation, they also feel that those whom He has chosen cannot fall away from salvation. They look to John 3:36 and 6:47, which both reaffirm that whoever believes in Christ has eternal life. 1 Corinthians 1:8 says, "He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." According to Calvinism, those whom God has elected will not lose their salvation due to the following reasons: First, God, out of His sovereign will, chose them from the beginning. Second, He will continue to preserve the elect for His heavenly kingdom so that they will not turn away.
Due to the Arminian belief of man’s free will to choose God, they also believe that man can also fall away from His grace. From the Arminian standpoint, God cannot force man to accept His gift of salvation, nor can God force man to retain his beliefs. Man can reject God’s grace in the same way that he accepted God. Therefore, man’s eternal security is entirely dependent on the choices he makes. Romans 11:22 says, "Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." Paul writes in Galatians that those who tried to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ and thus, have fallen away from grace.
Rit Nosotro
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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