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Topic: The Sower And The Soils
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Forever His
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Member # 25
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posted
I am looking at Luke 8: 11-13 for now.
New KJV
8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
8:12 Those by the way side are the ones who hear; then the devil comes, and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
8:13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Now those who are by the wayside I am sure that we have all seen... the devil comes and takes away the seed before it has a chance to germinate. And it is aways so sad to see that happen...
Now if the New King James is correct... It says that the ones on the rock are those who "receive the word with joy" ... but it goes on to say... " that they have no root " and " who BELIVE FOR A WHILE" ...
I find this very interesting... I believe that I have also met many of these who at first seem to be bright lights in the church... I have a neigbor that was one of these... we had many conversations about God many years ago... yet he and his wife have completly left the church... and have no use for God.
I am just curious what your thought's are regarding this?
God Bless
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Forever His
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posted
Oh... well thank you Carol... I guess that I do have an interest in this topic since it is the one that I read first ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I will come back in a few moments with a couple questions...
I will look forward to your viewpoint
Thank you
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Forever His
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posted
I just wanted to stop in and say that I like the spirit that I have sensed on this thread. It is wonderful to experience christian's who have difering views yet are kind and show brotherly love toward one another.
May God bless each of you and yours
Forever His
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
Hi David!
quote:
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar
To me this says he is a professing Christian.
The parable of the Sower and the Soils is about spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It says some will reject the gospel message, and some will accept it.
Those who accept it produce fruit. Those who do not produce fruit are liars, or false Christians, or professing Christians. If they are true Christians, they need to be disciplined, pruned, to start bearing fruit.
But I struggle against the thought that a true Christian, who has the Spirit of Jesus Christ in his heart, would ever be sent to hell.
John 6:39 (NLT)
39And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.
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KnowHim
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Member # 1
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posted
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him. - John 14:21
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. ~ 1 John 2:3-6 (NIV)
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Be Transformed-John 13-21
Okay! Here's more from Wiersbe:
A true branch, united with the vine, will always bear fruit. Not every branch bears a bumper crop, just as not every field has a bumper harvest (Matt. 13:8, 23), but there is always fruit where there is life. If there is no fruit, the branch is worthless and it is cast away and burned. I do not believe our Lord is teaching here that true believers can lose their salvation, for this would contradict what He taught in John 6:37 and 10:27-30. It is unwise to build a theological doctrine on a parable or allegory. Jesus was teaching one main truth—the fruitful life of the believer—and we must not press the details too much. Just as an unfruitful branch is useless, so an unfruitful believer is useless; and both must be dealt with. It is a tragic thing for a once-fruitful believer to backslide and lose his privilege of fellowship and service. If anything, John 15:6 describes divine discipline rather than eternal destiny. “There is [for believers] a sin unto death” (1 John 5:16).
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hittite1963
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posted
Carol & Michael,
No it doesn't frustrate me. I believe that any time we dig deeper into the word of God to understand what our Father in heaven would teach us it is a wonderful thing!
If it helps any, the word translated "abide" throughout John 15:1-8 is the Greek word meno which Strong defines to mean "remain, abide" (3306). Our word remain comes from this word (through Latin).*
Scripture itself defines this for us:
* Jesus teaches, "If you abide in My word, you are my disciples indeed" (John 8:31).
* He taught, "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love" (John 15:10).
* The Holy Spirit taught through John, "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked" (I John 2:6).
* He explains further that one will "abide in the Son and in the Father"--"if what you heard from the beginning abides in you" (I John 2:24 Note: I reversed the order by way of explanation).
* John teaches, "whoever abides in Him does not sin" (I John 3:6). This doesn't mean that the Christian can't sin (see I John 2:1) but that the accepted conduct of a Christian is not sin.
* In addition, John tells us that to "abide" in Christ we keep His commandments (I John 3:24a), allow His Spirit to dwell in us (I John 3:24b; 4:13), love one another (I John 4:12; 4:16), confess Jesus as the Son of God (I John 4:15).
* But it is possible to not "abide" in Christ after starting out in Christ. John teaches, "Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son" (II John 9).
One final point--does any of this add anything to God? Michael--as you pointed out, all works of obedience in no way give to God something He lacks. Paul said that God is not "worhipped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things" (Acts 17:25). All of our works of obedience are simply ways in which we as weak and sinful creatures accept the mercy of a loving God. Will we fall short? Yes. But it is our duty to obey--it is God's grace to be merciful.
Thanks for your interest in spiritual things.
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* Latin manere meaning "stay" is the direct root of this word, but there is a linquistic relationship between this an meno.
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Kyle Pope
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http://kmpope.home.att.net
http://www.olsenpark.com
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Hi Michael! Welcome, welcome!
hittite1963
John 15:6
“Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.” (NRSV)
It must be frustrating for a pastor who has spent years in school and internship, and works hard and well with your congregation, when someone like me buys some books and then says "Yeah, but..." every time you turn around. I sincerely hope you view this as a welcome challenge. After all, that's what a forum is all about.
Thank you for your patience and help.
So, anyway, whoever does not abide...
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
So! May I?
The real question, and the true discovery is in what it means to 'abide', if we can discover it.
quote:
Next: quote:
Part of this He defines as allowing His words to abide in us (John 15:7).
"So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you were commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do'" (Luke 17:10).
Indeed, we have added nothing to Him by doing these things which He has commanded, which involve obedience of faith and belief, which would entail 'abiding', 'receiving', being sent (which He empowers), and so on!
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hittite1963
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posted
Carol,
You asked if this is salvation by works? Absolutely not! The Bible teaches, "For by grace you have been saved, and that not of youselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). When one becomes separated from God because of sin, there is no amount of good works that can ever merit forgiveness.
However, there is a difference between works of merit and works of obedience. God has set the conditions by which we must accept His wonderful offer of grace. It is our duty to meet these conditions. Jesus, when asked "Increase our faith" (Luke 17:5) went on to tell his disciples a parable which He explained saying, "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you were commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do'" (Luke 17:10).
Unfortunately, man in his struggle to understand the relationship between faith and works has formulated various systems to try and explain this. All such theological systems of human beings ultimately fall short. But, when we look simply at what the Scripture says it is nowhere near as complicated.
In the text in John 15 Jesus said these are branches "in Me" (John 15:2). We can't say they are not in Christ when Jesus says they are. In the text Jesus sets the condition that such a one must "abide in Me" (John 15:4). Part of this He defines as allowing His words to abide in us (John 15:7).
If we look at this and the Parable of the Sower, simply conidering what the word of God itself says we don't have to say these aren't really in Christ (that's not what the Bible says). We can simply accept that in both texts a condition of abiding in Christ is bearing fruit. This fruit doesn't merit anything. Rather, when we have done it "we are unprofitable servants, we have done what was our duty to do."
Thanks for your desire to dig into the word of God and understand it.
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Kyle Pope
kmpope@worldnet.att.net
http://kmpope.home.att.net
http://www.olsenpark.com
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Carol Swenson
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posted
John 15:6
“Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.” (NRSV)
Life Application Bible Commentary: John
Each branch that does not continue to abide in the vine is removed from the vine. The branch seems physically attached, but is not organically part of the plant because it does not participate in the life-giving flow of the vine. Sooner or later, that branch will drop off and have to be discarded. Three traditional interpretations have tried to identify who these discarded branches might represent:
1. For some, these branches are true believers who have lost their salvation because they were cut off from Christ and burned. Some think this is also what is described in Romans 11:20-22 and Hebrews 6:8. This view challenges those whose security had become a point of pride. However, it leaves a much larger group (who believe that “something more is required” of them) in a constant state of turmoil and doubt and also contradicts other passages like John 3:16, 36; 5:24; 10:28-29; Romans 8:1.
2. For others, these burned branches are Christians who will lose rewards but not salvation on the day of judgment (1 Corinthians 3:15). But this is probably not true because Jesus was speaking of dead branches. This view would actually fit better under the idea of extreme pruning (discipline), rather than the picture of separation and loss that Jesus gives.
3. For still others, these burned branches refer to those professing to be Christians who, like Judas Iscariot, are not genuinely saved and therefore are judged. Judas, a disciple of Jesus, seemed like a branch, but he did not truly believe. Therefore, he was cut off; his fate was like that of a dead branch. Given John’s concern to make committed disciples of his readers and Jesus’ goal to bring people into an “abiding” relationship with himself, this view provides a healthy balance. It keeps the decision of destiny as God’s responsibility while preserving an emphasis on our responsibility to “remain” in the relationship. In any case, the verse is not so much aimed at creating discomfort and doubt as it is in teaching the importance of daily connectedness with Christ.
I believe that they are professing Christians. ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif)
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hittite1963
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posted
Carol,
Thanks for your comments. I would encourage you to take a look at John 15:1-8 on the matter of bearing fruit. There we find...
* "Every branch IN ME [i.e. in Christ--a Christian] that does not bear fruit He TAKES AWAY" (15:2). "Takes away"="cast out"-in vs.6. We also find...
* One cannot bear fruit "unless it abides in the vine" (15:4). Christ is the Vine (15:1). And...
* "If anyone does NOT ABIDE IN ME [i.e. they were in Christ, but didn't remain there] he is CAST OUT AS A BRANCH [i.e. he is no longer a branch--he is no longer in Chrsit] and is withered, and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned" (15:6). This parallels the wording of the Parable of the Sower--i.e. one in Christ can be in Christ but fail to abide in Christ, bear fruit, and thus they are lost in hell. On the otherhand, God would have it to be that...
* "By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit" (15:8). The influence of the Holy Spirit should lead the Christian to bear fruit. However, a Christian can refuse that influence by refusing to allow Christ's "words to abide in" them (15:7).
I appreciate your interest in the word of God. Keep it up!
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Kyle Pope
kmpope@worldnet.att.net
http://kmpope.home.att.net
http://www.olsenpark.com
Posts: 70 | From: Amarillo, TX - USA | Registered: Mar 2008
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Carol Swenson
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hittite1963,
No need to apologize. I forgot to put Wiersbe's name on it, (I fixed that). And I welcome your thoughts.
I am fascinated by Wiersbe's commentary. He writes some unusual interpretations of the parables. To me, it seems that he reveals patterns and meanings that are deeper than most other commentators.
quote:
As such, the parable warns the Christian not to be shallow and not to let other things choke the influence of the word, lest they to fail to bring forth fruit, wither away and be burned in the fires of hell.
Are you saying the works will be tested and the worthless things will be burned up, but the believer survives, although as through a fire?
Or, are you saying that the Christian will be burned in the fires of hell? If he is a false Christian, a professing Christian, then he is not really a Christian at all. But a real Christian, a new creation in Christ, born again into the family of God, would not be shallow or choked with the cares of the world to the point where he bore no spiritual fruit at all, would he? It's difficult for me to imagine someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit going that far astray, at least for any length of time.
As a pastor, do you know of Christians like that? I'm sure you have more experience and understanding than I do as I am a student.
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hittite1963
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posted
Carol,
I apologize, I missed the fact that you were quoting Wiersbe. It is nice to meet you as well. I've seen a number of your posts. I look forward to discussing the word of God with you on the message board.
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Kyle Pope
kmpope@worldnet.att.net
http://kmpope.home.att.net
http://www.olsenpark.com
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Carol Swenson
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Hello Hittite1963,
I'm pleased to meet you. I understand that you are a pastor, and I hope you will enjoy your time at the Christian BBS.
This post is quoted from Warren Wiersbe. I think the question is does the individual bear fruit or not. Since it is the Holy Spirit Who bears fruit through us, then one who does not bear fruit does not know the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Welcome to the forum. I will look forward to your reply.
God bless you. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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hittite1963
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Carol,
You make some very good observations about the Parable of the Soils (I've usually heard it called the Parable of the Sower). This is one of the most important parables Jesus told. I say this because it is one of the only parables in all three of the synoptic gospels, and because Jesus himself says, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?" (Mark 4:13).
I would challenge you to think about one of the points you made. You said, quote:
The other three hearts produced no fruit, so we conclude that they belong to persons who have never been born again.
However, in the parable Jesus Himself tells us of the seed on the stony ground "immediately it sprang up" but because it had no root it "withered away" (vs. 5). In Luke's account, it is said of the seed sown among thorns, "thorns sprang up with it and choked it" (Luke 8:7). I don't think that we can conclude from this that (at least the second and third types of soil) represent those who were never born again--rather they represent those who did not "hold fast the confession of [their] hope without wavering" (Hebrews 10:23). They, like the illustration used by Peter, like a dog returned to their own vomit (II Peter 2:22). As such, the parable warns the Christian not to be shallow and not to let other things choke the influence of the word, lest they to fail to bring forth fruit, wither away and be burned in the fires of hell.
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Kyle Pope
kmpope@worldnet.att.net
http://kmpope.home.att.net
http://www.olsenpark.com
Posts: 70 | From: Amarillo, TX - USA | Registered: Mar 2008
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Carol Swenson
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Mark 4:3-8(KJV)
3Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
Be Diligent-Mark by Warren W. Wiersbe
The sower and the soils
This parable helped the disciples understand why Jesus was not impressed by the large crowds that followed Him. He knew that most of them would never produce fruit from changed lives, because the Word He was teaching them was like seed falling into poor soil.
The seed represents God’s Word (Luke 8:11) and the sower is the servant of God who shares that Word with others (see 1 Cor. 3:5-9). The human heart is like soil: it must be prepared to receive the seed before that seed can take root and produce a harvest. Like seed, the Word is alive and able to produce spiritual fruit, but the seed must be planted and cultivated before that harvest will come.
As in that day, so today, there are four kinds of hearts and they respond to God’s message in four different ways.
The hard heart (Mark 4:4, 15) resists the Word of God and makes it easy for Satan (the birds) to snatch it away. Soil becomes hard when too many feet tread on it. Those who recklessly “open their hearts” to all kinds of people and influences are in danger of developing hard hearts (see Prov. 4:23). Hard hearts must be “plowed up” before they can receive the seed, and this can be a painful experience (Jer. 4:3; Hosea 10:12).
The shallow heart (vv. 5-6, 16-17). This heart is like thin soil on a rock, very typical to Palestine. Since there is no depth, whatever is planted cannot last because it has no roots. This represents the “emotional hearer” who joyfully accepts God’s Word but does not really understand the price that must be paid to become a genuine Christian. There may be great enthusiasm for several days or weeks; but when persecution and difficulties begin, the enthusiasm wanes and the joy disappears. It is easy for fallen human nature to counterfeit “religious feelings” and give a professed Christian a feeling of false confidence.
The crowded heart (vv. 7, 18-19). This heart pictures the person who receives the Word but does not truly repent and remove the “weeds” out of his or her heart. This hearer has too many different kinds of “seeds” growing in the soil—worldly cares, a desire for riches, a lust for things—and the good seed of the Word has no room in which to grow. To change the image, this person wants to walk the “broad way” and the “narrow way” at the same time (Matt. 7:13-14); and it cannot be done.
The fruitful heart (vv. 8, 20). This heart pictures the true believer, because fruit—a changed life—is the evidence of true salvation (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 5:19-23). The other three hearts produced no fruit, so we conclude that they belong to persons who have never been born again. Not all true believers are equally as productive; but from every genuine Christian’s life, there will be some evidence of spiritual fruit.
Each of the three fruitless hearts is influenced by a different enemy: the hard heart—the devil himself snatches the seed; the shallow heart—the flesh counterfeits religious feelings; the crowded heart—the things of the world smother the growth and prevent a harvest. These are the three great enemies of the Christian: the world, the flesh, and the devil (Eph. 2:1-3).
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