|
Author
|
Topic: Opposition To The Kingdom
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
quote:
So there are indeed tares or false Christians in the church, but there are far more tares outside the church, I think.
No, there is a difference between tares and other unbelievers.
Tares look like wheat. They profess to be Christian. Tares look like wheat until they bear fruit.
Unbelievers are Darwinists and others who don't believe and don't care. Atheists and agnostics. Unbelievers are also those who practice other religions, such as Islam or Hinduism. Unbelievers are obviously not Christian.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
And I think that more Protestants are truly saved than Roman Catholic Christians are truly saved; I think more Roman Catholic Christians think they are saved because they were born Catholics, don't you?
And additionally, of course, all Islamics, all Hindus, all Buddhists, all atheists and all agnostics and all Sufis and all the other kinds of beliefs, they are all tares too.
So there are indeed tares or false Christians in the church, but there are far more tares outside the church, I think.
with love, eden
Eden I agree, I think we are on the same page with this. But I don't believe anyone that believes what the Roman Catholic's believe could be saved at all. They have made a god to suit themselves and this is idolatry. I would more think of the Roman Catholic as "the teachers of the law". When I read verses like the below it just makes me think of the Roman Catholic Church.
Mark 15:1 (NIV)
Very early in the morning, the chief priests, with the elders, the teachers of the law and the whole Sanhedrin, reached a decision. They bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.
.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Hi David,
You gave all of us a really good explanation of the true and false. I'll just quote a small part of what you said.
quote:
One of the hindrances people face is illiteracy. Most Christians do not read and study the bible for themselves. We need to realize that elements of true and false Christianity will be intermingled in the same world, in the same church, even in the same person. Any attempt to "weed out" the false runs the risk of uprooting the true as well.
Our goal as Christians should not be to weed out all the "tares" in the church, but to do everything possible to teach the truth to the true "wheat" in the church making so strong and healthy that the "tares" are powerless to against it.
The Lord said we cannot sort out the tares from the wheat without harming the wheat. This statement makes me think of the Inquisition.
(Shudder).
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
yeshuaslavejeff
Advanced Member
Member # 4506
|
posted
Rather as the Book states clearly,
He reaps or sends His angels to reap out the tares.
He recognizes (quite obviously) the true and false.
More are they who are deceived than who are not deceived - the whole world is deceived; is it not written to be so?
Trust no one without testing often.
If you hold on to anything, you cannot be His let alone know anything.
That's one way the gurgling infants recognize what is not of the Truth
- if someone says they are in Him, yet hold on tenaciously to something (or desire any worldly advantage or gain or property), watch out.
--------------------
1Peter4:1,2 Yeshua suffered physical suffering:disciples have same mind/ willingness to share shame/physical suffering with Yeshua/His people.
Biblio:"willtherealhereticsplease standup?"byBercot(churchTruth)
Posts: 75 | From: tulsa | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Aaron
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
So there are indeed tares or false Christians in the church, but there are far more tares outside the church, I think.
This could only be true if the limits of "the church" are defined by the walls of a building or some institutional arrangement (like a membership list).
This cannot be true if the limits of "the church" are defined by God. The church is everyone who has been called out by God; whether they are pew-sitters or not is a non-issue. If one has answered the call of God they are "the church" and they are in "the church" corporate.
Now, it is certainly true that many who are found in church buildings and on membership rosters are not "the church"; which is to say "They are not called out by God". So, although they have fulfilled the requirements of "church membership" established by men they have not fulfilled the requirement of being the church established by God. Therefore, they are not the church.
In summary: From God's perspective there are no tares in the church.
Aaron
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
I still agree with Warren Wiersbe. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) This thread is about false doctrines, false church growth, and false Christians. The parable of the wheat and the tares is not about every kind of unbeliever, but it addresses a specific issue - false Christians. Other kinds of unbelievers are spoken of in other stories.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Hi, David Campbell. You said quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
But both you and Carol Swenson seem to say that tares are "false Christians" who even "meet in church buildings" on a regular basis, but "who are not really part of the church".
But, isn't it true that by definition the vast majority of the tares don't ever go into "church buildings"? Hindus don't, Islamists don't, voodoos don't, Judaism adherents don't, atheists don't, darwinists don't, secularists don't, so how can you say that tares are "false Chrsitians"? That's the part that I don't get. Can you please explain that?
Thank you, eden
And David Campbell then answered Eden: quote:
Eden,
I did not say that the tares are false Christians.
Praise the Lord, brother David Campbell, I appreciate the great work that you are doing as a webmaster for the kingdom of God with this Christian website.
But if I may, I reviewed your first post and there you made 2 statements which very closely resembled saying false Christians. And here they are, copied directly from David Campbell's first post under this Topic:
David Campbell writes: quote:
This is a great topic as it is very important to know you are saved and not a counterfeit Christian.
A counterfeit Christian is someone who looks saved, talks saved, an act saved, but they are not saved. They usually believe they are saved. Some know they are not saved but want to fit in with those who are.
Most Christians do not read and study the bible for themselves. We need to realize that elements of true and false Christianity will be intermingled in the same world, in the same church, even in the same person. Any attempt to "weed out" the false runs the risk of uprooting the true as well.
Our goal as Christians should not be to weed out all the "tares" in the church, but to do everything possible to teach the truth to the true "wheat" in the church making so strong and healthy that the "tares" are powerless to against it.
David Campbell, you said quote:
Eden, I did not say that the tares are false Christians.
David Campbell, is it any wonder that I got false Christians out of you saying that the tares are counterfeit Christians and you saying that the tares are false Christianity?
You then do go on to say quote:
I said the tares are anyone that is not saved. Anyone that is not following Jesus Christ.
Yes tares can be false Christians, but it can be ANYONE that is not saved.
Yes, that is true and a better view than that the tares are false Christians as opposed to true Christians.
Dear Brother David Campbell, I do believe that there are people who are born in a Christian or Catholic family or say they are Christian but have never made a personal admission of their sinfulness to Christ; those people I would classify as "false Christians" and they are indeed still tares.
A tare is anyone in the whole wide world who still has not accepted Jesus Christ as the Substitute for their sins, and that includes "false Christians", meaning those who were born into a Christian or Catholic family but who think they are Christians but have never seen their personal sinfulness being exchanged for by the Living Jesus.
And there are many of those, especialy in the Roman Catholic sector of the family of God there are many who think they are in the family of God just because they are born a Catholic. The Prosestant sector of the family of God tends to be more aware of the need for this personal acception that Jesus died for my sins so that I do not have to die for my sins anymore...a lot more folks in the Protestant part of the church are in that regard "truly saved".
And I think that more Protestants are truly saved than Roman Catholic Christians are truly saved; I think more Roman Catholic Christians think they are saved because they were born Catholics, don't you?
And additionally, of course, all Islamics, all Hindus, all Buddhists, all atheists and all agnostics and all Sufis and all the other kinds of beliefs, they are all tares too.
So there are indeed tares or false Christians in the church, but there are far more tares outside the church, I think.
with love, eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Aaron
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
May I ask then: When was this wheat sown? Back in Genesis with Adam and Eve, and then later with Abraham-Sarah to Israel, and later again with Jesus?
And when did the wicked one sow the bad seed or tares, back when Adam and Eve sinned and whomever the wicked one has been able to convince?
So Aaron (or anyone), when Jesus spoke this parable in the 1st century A.D., when was He saying this wheat was sown and when was these taries sown?
love, eden
Sorry this is late. I just re-read this thread today.
I believe the distinction between the good seeds and the bad seeds is primarily this:
quote:
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
..the good seeds have the Spirit in them and are led by the Spirit of God.
Without going into a bunch of quotes I'll simply say this: certain men and woman, from Adam 'till now, have been led by the Spirit of God. These people are counted as the "sons of God".
Aaron
IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
But both you and Carol Swenson seem to say that tares are "false Christians" who even "meet in church buildings" on a regular basis, but "who are not really part of the church".
But, isn't it true that by definition the vast majority of the tares don't ever go into "church buildings"? Hindus don't, Islamists don't, voodoos don't, Judaism adherents don't, atheists don't, darwinists don't, secularists don't, so how can you say that tares are "false Chrsitians"? That's the part that I don't get. Can you please explain that?
Thank you, eden
Eden,
I did not say that the tares are false Christians. I said the tares are anyone that is not saved. Anyone that is not following Jesus Christ.
Yes tares can be false Christians, but it can be ANYONE that is not saved.
.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
Eden,
There are many people who go into a church building who are tares. Just because one goes into a building where Christians assemble is no reason for us to truly KNOW whether they are saved, only God knows each persons heart. Now scripture does say we will know them by their fruits but to truly know only God does.
Take Judas, the betrayer of Yeshua. This is an example of a Tare among the 12 disciples. Only Yeshua knew that there would be one who would betray Him and He knew who that one was.
Yeshua said the MANY in that day would say Lord, Lord look what we did in your name ect... and He says depart from me you workers of iniquity, I NEVER KNEW you. These would be considered tares among the wheat.
In the Hebrew the word Know or Knew you for this example is Yada. It means to be INTIMATE with someone. One must have a personal, intimate relationship with Yeshua, not just believing who He is, for even the demons believe and tremble.
The scriptures say that For God so loved the WORLD that He sent His only begotten Son that who so ever belives on Him might be saved.
Now some recieve seed by the wayside, they hear the good news about the kingdom of God and do not understand it so the devil snatches away what was sown in his heart.
Then some recive the word and immediately recive it with joy, but when they are tried in the fire, or when they are tested or are persecuted for their faith (belief)and still retain a heart of stone instead of a heart of flesh they immediately stumble.
Then others who have heard the good news of the kingdom cannot except it because they are more concerned with the cares of this world and of obtaining riches.
These are the Tares. The wheat are those who not only hear the word but they understand it and they bear fruit.
Let me say this, the Church grew more under persecution than any other time in history since Yeshuas death and resurrection.
If you look around at the Western Church of today, you will hear what is being sown. Prosperity gospel, Name it and claim it, and to be honest, the message of the western Mega churches today is all about what God can do for You, not about building Gods Kingdom.
You can get as much from Dr. Phil on TV as you can a lot of these Mega self-help preachers of the word today, because the seed that is being sown in the hearts of men today is not one of self-denial, picking up your cross,enduring till the end, repent for the kingdom of God is at hand ect..
NO! The message sown today is from the enemy.And the enemy is using the word of God and some preachers to preach what i call a different gospel and a different Jesus.
But, not everyone in these mega churches are tares. Some are wheat. Remember, the church buildings are just that. A place for people to assemble to hear a preacher preach the word. We all live in the world. And might i add the devil uses people everyday. Do you understand?
Notice the verse that says "and while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat?
The modern western mega churches(as an example) are asleep. The watchmen are crying out and blowing the shofar crying "WAKE UP". But many will exchange the lie for the truth. The main stream churches of today are going into apostacy as Yeshua said they would just before His return.
Believe it or not there are snakes in the pews. For some people this will be a hard statement to grasp. We live in an age where the motto is I'm okay, your okay, everyone is okay. Thats false. Or Gods doing a NEW thing, thats false. There is nothing NEW under the sun.
A denomination will not save you, going to church will not save you, doing good will not save you, self-help mumbo jumbo will not save you, only Yeshua saves and saves to the uttermost. But there is a price to pay. Yeshua said to count the cost of following Him. We cannot serve or follow 2 masters.
Sons of the kingdom and sons of the evil one currently live togethere in human society, and even attend churches togethere. But ultimately God will take out all of those things (or persons) out that offend Him when His Kingdom comes to its consumation in the age to come.
Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Hi,Aaron, I'd still like to hear from you about my above post.
Hi, David Campbell, you said quote:
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. - Matthew 13:38-39
>>> when was He saying this wheat was sown
The wheat is sown when someone comes to know and follow Jesus Christ.
>>> and when were these tares sown?
The enemy that sowed them is the devil. When one rejects the message of the good news of the gospel, they become a tare. So when you reach the age of accountability you are a tare until you come to follow Christ. They can still be saved, but until they are, they remain a tare.
Okay. If they are not saved, they are a tare. I can agree with that. But do you go from that point of view and say they are "false Christians"?
To me, the wheat are the Christians, and then the rest of the world who are not Christians, they are by definition the tares. They reject Jesus.
But both you and Carol Swenson seem to say that tares are "false Christians" who even "meet in church buildings" on a regular basis, but "who are not really part of the church".
But, isn't it true that by definition the vast majority of the tares don't ever go into "church buildings"? Hindus don't, Islamists don't, voodoos don't, Judaism adherents don't, atheists don't, darwinists don't, secularists don't, so how can you say that tares are "false Chrsitians"? That's the part that I don't get. Can you please explain that?
Thank you, eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
So Aaron (or anyone), when Jesus spoke this parable in the 1st century A.D., when was He saying this wheat was sown and when was these taries sown?
love, eden
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. - Matthew 13:38-39
>>> when was He saying this wheat was sown
The wheat is sown when someone comes to know and follow Jesus Christ.
>>> and when was these taries sown?
The enemy that sowed them is the devil. When one rejects the message of the good news of the gospel, they become a tare. So when you reach the age of accountability you are a tare until you come to follow Christ. They can still be saved, but until they are, they remain a tare.
.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
Tares were very common in Palastine and closely resemble wheat. They are not really distinguishable from wheat until the grain appears at harvesttime.
My Nelson Bible dictionary says this:
Tares- A poisonous grass resembling wheat, but with smaller seeds. The tares were left in the fields until harvest time, then seperated from the wheat during winnowing. Jesus used tares growing with wheat as a parable to illustrate evil in the world. Tares is translated weeds in the NRSV and NIV, and darnel in the REB.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Hi, Aaron. You said quote:
Mat 13:37,38 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one."
sower = Christ
field = world
good seed = sons of Kingdom
tares = sons of the wicked one
So, quite plainly, the field is the world NOT the church.
Okay, so the field is the world. I believe the parable said that the seed of the sons of the kingdom are sown first, and that THEN the seed of the sons of the wicked ones are sown among them:
Matthew 13
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
So the enemy sowed tares among the wheat AFTER the man had sown the wheat.
May I ask then: When was this wheat sown? Back in Genesis with Adam and Eve, and then later with Abraham-Sarah to Israel, and later again with Jesus?
And when did the wicked one sow the bad seed or tares, back when Adam and Eve sinned and whomever the wicked one has been able to convince?
The Bible does say that there are only two kingdoms, the kingdom of the darkness and the kingdom of light:
Colossians 1:13
Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.
So Aaron (or anyone), when Jesus spoke this parable in the 1st century A.D., when was He saying this wheat was sown and when was these taries sown?
love, eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Aaron
unregistered
|
posted
The parable is explained just a little further on:
quote:
Mat 13:37,38 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one."
sower = Christ
field = world
good seed = sons of Kingdom
tares = sons of the wicked one
So, quite plainly, the filed is the world NOT the church.
A while ago I heard a "teacher" address the Matthew 13:24-30 verses only. He reasoned that we should let evil people remain in the church until the Day comes lest we "pull up the tares but injure the wheat in the process". Man, that got me ruffled like a cat petted backwards! "No way!" I thought. Of course the Lord's answer was to simply "keep reading" and the explanation was given just a few lines down.
The field is the world.
The church is sown by Christ.
The tares are sown by the evil one.
Although the tares and wheat exist in the same world only one group is counted among the sons of the Kingdom.
Aaron
IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
.
>>> My question thus is, Why do you say that both the wheat and the tares are in the church?
First it depends on what you are referring to as the Church.
If you are referring to the true body of Christ (The saved followers of Jesus Christ that have given their life to Him. Not just mouthed the words and go on living for themselves.)
Then yes there are no tares in the Church.
But if you are referring to the Church buildings and the ones that just call themselves Christians meeting in a country club setting for their own benefit lifting themselves up. The ones in the Religious Machine that does not put Jesus Christ first but uses religion to manipulate people. Then yes the wheat and the tares are there together. I believe there are some saved people there that don’t realize what is going on yet. So they will be the wheat and the rest will be the tares.
There are only two groups. The saved (wheat) and the lost (tares). Both saved and lost go to Church buildings but only the saved are actually in the Church which is the body of Christ. The true Church is not contained in a building and is located world wide.
You do how ever have many that claim to be part of the Church but are not and will be part of the tares when the reaper comes.
.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Hi, Carol Swenson. Eden had said quote:
But you tell me that both the sheep and the goats are both Christians, except that the sheep are the true Christians and the goats are the false Christians, but only God knows the difference between the two right now and not even we true Christians can tell who is who?
And then you said to Eden quote:
I never said any such thing. These parables have nothing to do with Matthew 25.
Yes, you are right, my apologies. You did not mention the sheep-goat parable, but the wheat-tares parable. I probably ended up thinking of the sheep-goat parable, thinking they were a parable about the same thing.
Okay then, as to the wheat and the tares parable, that parable says this:
Matthew 13
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Okay, Jesus spoke this while Jesus was in Judah-Israel. My question is this: Why do you say that both the wheat and the tares are currently part of the church, with the wheat being the true Christians and the tares being false Christians?
Why can the wheat not refer to those who are believers in Jesus and the tares are those who are part of the world, as in, God sowed good people or wheat people into the world but Satan came and sowed bad or worldly people or tares people into the world, and God allows both types of people (Christian people and worldly people) to grow together until the end but at the end the tares (the worldly unbelieving people) will be taken out and the wheat is gathered into the God's barn.
My question thus is, Why do you say that both the wheat and the tares are in the church?
Because I have always understood the wheat to mean believers who are in the church and the tares to mean unbelievers who have NEVER been in the church.
See what I mean? That is also the reason why I ended up using the sheep and the goat parable (by mistake) because I feel that the principle is the same: the sheep are the believers of the church, and the goats are the unbelievers who have NEVER been in the church.
Can you please explain that to me?
love, eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
quote:
But you tell me that both the sheep and the goats are both Christians, except that the sheep are the true Christians and the goats are the false Christians, but only God knows the difference between the two right now and not even we true Christians can tell who is who?
I never said any such thing. These parables have nothing to do with Matthew 25.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
>>> But you tell me that both the sheep and the goats are both Christians, except that the sheep are the true Christians and the goats are the false Christians, but only God knows the difference between the two right now and not even we true Christians can tell who is who?
No we are to know the difference. God knows for sure, but we can tell most of the time by doing what God tells us in His word the bible.
This is a great topic as it is very important to know you are saved and not a counterfeit Christian.
A counterfeit Christian is someone who looks saved, talks saved, an act saved, but they are not saved. They usually believe they are saved. Some know they are not saved but want to fit in with those who are.
They often say the right things, hang out with the right people, some even read their bible and pray, but they are still lost and on their way to hell for eternity.
Someone can appear to be a Christian and still be lost. They can think they’re a Christian and still be lost. Many hang around and grow up with Christians but they are still be lost.
Sometimes being around “religious things” most of ones life will cause people to think they are saved.
We must realizes the counterfeit modern gospel produces counterfeit Christians who unknowingly have received a different Jesus and a different god, than those of the true gospel. They have been assured by Preachers that they have been born-again. Teaching a gospel that does not include the requirements of repentance and self-denial, is not complete; and the birth that it produces is not of God. Those who preach and teach without including these requirements are as a wolf in sheep’s clothing, deceiving many.
One of the hindrances people face is illiteracy. Most Christians do not read and study the bible for themselves. We need to realize that elements of true and false Christianity will be intermingled in the same world, in the same church, even in the same person. Any attempt to "weed out" the false runs the risk of uprooting the true as well.
Our goal as Christians should not be to weed out all the "tares" in the church, but to do everything possible to teach the truth to the true "wheat" in the church making so strong and healthy that the "tares" are powerless to against it.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:21-23
Jesus teaches that there will be false converts that He never knew and they will be going to Hell. In Jesus' own words, there will be MORE on the broad road (which is a RELIGIOUS road) - "many" - than on the NARROW road - "few".
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it. - Matthew 7:14 (NKJV)
How can counterfeit Christians be identified?
Counterfeit Christians can teach, preach, profess faith, do miracles, and perform good works (Matthew 7:15, 21-22). In the parable, no one noticed the problem until the wheat began to reproduce, forming heads prior to the harvest (vs. 26). The key difference between wheat and weeds is not in what they do, but in what they are. Wheat reproduces wheat. They are different by nature.
“By their fruit you will recognize them” Jesus compares a fruit-bearing tree to a Christian
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:15-21 (KJV)
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. - 1 John 2:3 through 1 John 2:6 (KJV)
In Mark 3:35, Jesus tells us that "whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."
Notice that it is not just a Christian profession of faith that counts, it is not their good works, but whether or not they know Jesus Christ as Savior! Is there a personal relationship? Have they trusted Him in faith for their salvation? Knowing Him?
There are serious people, preachers, very religious people that know who Jesus Christ is, they recognize that He is the Lord, but they never knew Him. No relationship, they never received Him as Savior. They are not family. They had made a profession of faith, but there is no relationship. Read what Paul told Timothy:
2 Timothy 3:1-9 NIV
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
Paul is saying they are counterfeit Christians. They have a form of godliness. They may look good on the surface, but that is it. On the outside you can barely tell them apart. But on the inside they don’t know Jesus Christ. They have a divided heart. They have not come to know Jesus Christ, but religion.
Matthew 7:16
By their fruit you will know them.
Also read:
http://e-tacklebox.com/counterfeit.html
Watch:
Counterfeit Christians
http://www.jesusclips.com/view_video.php?viewkey=d81f348082ff6c4b2076
www.lostinchurch.com
.
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Hi, Carol Swenson. You said quote:
...professing Christians... It is difficult to tell the false from the true today; but at the end of the age, the angels will separate them.
I thought that the Bible says that at the end of the age, the angels will separate...the sheep from the goats:
Matthew 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.
32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Dear Carol Swenson, I have always thought that when the Bible mention "sheep", that the Christian believers are meant, and that when the Bible mentions "goats", that those who are NOT Christian believers are meant.
Hence, at the end of the age when the nations are gathered before the throne of the Lord, the sheep are separated from the goats.
But you said: quote:
...professing Christians... It is difficult to tell the false from the true today; but at the end of the age, the angels will separate them.
I have always thought that the sheep of Matthew 25 were the believing Christians and that the goats of Matthew 25 were the people who did never became believing Christians during their life.
But you tell me that both the sheep and the goats are both Christians, except that the sheep are the true Christians and the goats are the false Christians, but only God knows the difference between the two right now and not even we true Christians can tell who is who?
I have always thought:
Sheep=christian
Goat=not a christian, an unbeliever, a worldly person, one who rejects that Jesus rose from the dead
Now, believe me, I can tell the difference between those two.
love, eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear friends,
One of the things that opposes the Kingdom of God is the preference for old wine.
quote:
Lu 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
To understand this statement, we have to understand what the Lord means by 'new' and 'old wine'.
quote:
Mat 21:33 ¶ Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
The chief priests and Pharisees did not have to guess about the identity of the husbandmen to which the vineyard was let out. They knew the story from Isaiah.
quote:
Is 5:1 ¶ Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
8 ¶ Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!
9 In mine ears said the LORD of hosts, Of a truth many houses shall be desolate, even great and fair, without inhabitant.
10 Yea, ten acres of vineyard shall yield one bath, and the seed of an homer shall yield an ephah.
11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.
14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
So, when the Owner of the vineyard looks for good grapes, He is looking for good judgments on the precious plant of the men of Judah. Thus, the vineyard is a nation and the wine is judgments from a government.
When Jesus came, He came as a man of Judah, a precious plant declaring the judgments for which His Father was looking. In fact, in Matthew, chapters five and six, Jesus spends a lot of time contrasting specific differences between the old judgments and His.
quote:
Mt 5:21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
You all know that there is a lot more of the contrast than I put in quotes, but, this is one source of grapes for knew wine.
So, Jesus came offering good grapes for new wine, and the chief priests and Pharisees killed him for it. No man that has tasted old wine, immediately, prefers the new.
However, Jesus had prepared a new wine skin for the new wine.
quote:
Lu 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
21 ¶ But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
23 And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing.
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
And, after Jesus ascended, that same Spirit that raised Christ from the grave came to fill the followers of Jesus on Pentecost. That Spirit had the same message that Jesus had.
quote:
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Thus, the Kingdom of God was given to a nation that beareth the fruit of it.
Unfortunately, after having been given the good stuff, people start getting a taste of the cheap stuff through wine-blending, and they stop bearing the fruit and they lose the Kingdom.
quote:
Pr 23:29 ¶ Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Isn't it interesting how the natural drunk, having started out as wine connoisseur, compares to theologians who spend a lot of time criticizing each others religion; woe, sorrow, contentions, babblings, and wounds without cause. And such cheapening of judgment ("Raca", "thou fool") will, always, lead people back into old wine.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Hi Eden,
It's nice to hear from you. I'll try to answer your question.
quote:
...professing Christians... It is difficult to tell the false from the true today; but at the end of the age, the angels will separate them.
It would be great if they were really obvious. But as the parable of the tares tells us, (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43), we cannot root out the weeds (false Christians) from the wheat (true Christians) without harming the wheat. Lord Jesus does not explain why this is so.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Hi, Carol Swenson, you said, among other things quote:
We must beware of Satan’s counterfeits. He has counterfeit Christians (2 Cor. 11:26) who believe a counterfeit Gospel (Gal. 1:6-9). He encourages a counterfeit righteousness (Rom. 10:1-3), and even has a counterfeit church (Rev. 2:9). At the end of the age, he will produce a counterfeit Christ (2 Thes. 2:1-12).
Okay, you state that Satan plants counterfeit Christians among the true Christians. Since Satan has already been doing that, would you be so kind so as to identify what such a counterfeit Christian looks like among the true Christians, say in 2008, for example, who does he or she represent, please? It's easy to say, but who are they please?
love, eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Opposition to the Kingdom (Matt. 13:24-43)
Satan opposes the kingdom by trying to snatch the Word from hearts (Matt. 13:4, 19). But when that fails, he has other ways of attacking God’s work. These three parables reveal that Satan is primarily an imitator: He plants false Christians, he encourages a false growth, and he introduces false doctrine.
The tares—false Christians (vv. 24-30, 36-43).
Satan cannot uproot the plants (true Christians), so he plants counterfeit Christians in their midst. In this parable, the good seed is not the Word of God. It represents people converted through trusting the Word. The field is not human hearts; the field is the world. Christ is sowing true believers in various places that they might bear fruit (John 12:23-26). But, wherever Christ sows a true Christian, Satan comes and sows a counterfeit.
We must beware of Satan’s counterfeits. He has counterfeit Christians (2 Cor. 11:26) who believe a counterfeit Gospel (Gal. 1:6-9). He encourages a counterfeit righteousness (Rom. 10:1-3), and even has a counterfeit church (Rev. 2:9). At the end of the age, he will produce a counterfeit Christ (2 Thes. 2:1-12).
We must also stay awake to make sure that Satan’s ministers do not get into the true fellowship and do damage (2 Peter 2; 1 John 4:1-6). It is when God’s people go to sleep that Satan works. Our task is not to pull up the false, but to plant the true. (This does not refer to discipline within the local church.) We are not detectives but evangelists! We must oppose Satan and expose his lies. But we must also sow the Word of God and bear fruit in the place where He has planted us.
What will happen to the tares? God will gather them together and burn them. It is interesting to see that some of this “bundling” is already going on as various religious groups merge and strive for union. Spiritual unity among true Christians is one thing, but religious uniformity among mere professing Christians is quite another. It is difficult to tell the false from the true today; but at the end of the age, the angels will separate them.
The mustard seed—false growth (vv. 31-32).
In the East, the mustard seed symbolizes something small and insignificant. It produces a large plant, but not a “tree” in the strictest sense. However, the plant is large enough for birds to sit in the branches.
Since Jesus did not explain this parable, we must use what He did explain in the other parables to find its meaning. The birds in the Parable of the Sower represented Satan (Matt. 13:19). Passages like Daniel 4:12 and Ezekiel 17:23 indicate that a tree is a symbol of a world power. These facts suggest that the parable teaches an abnormal growth of the kingdom of heaven, one that makes it possible for Satan to work in it. Certainly “Christendom” has become a worldwide power with a complex organization of many branches. What started in a humble manner today boasts of material possessions and political influences.
Some make this parable teach the worldwide success of the Gospel. But that would contradict what Jesus taught in the first parable. If anything, the New Testament teaches a growing decline in the ministry of the Gospel as the end of the age draws near.
The leaven—false doctrine (v. 33).
The mustard seed illustrates the false outward expansion of the kingdom, while the leaven illustrates the inward development of false doctrine and false living. Throughout the Bible, leaven is a symbol of evil. It had to be removed from the Jewish homes during Passover (Ex. 12:15-19; 13:7). It was excluded from the sacrifices (Ex. 34:35), with the exception of the loaves used at the Feast of Pentecost (Lev. 23:15-21). But there the loaves symbolized Jews and Gentiles in the church, and there is sin in the church.
Jesus used leaven to picture hypocrisy (Luke 12:1), false teaching (Matt. 16:6-12), and worldly compromise (Matt. 22:16-21). Paul used leaven to picture carnality in the church (1 Cor. 5:6-8) as well as false doctrine (Gal. 5:9). Sin is like leaven (yeast): It quietly grows, it corrupts, and it “puffs up” (1 Cor. 4:18-19; 5:2; 8:1). It would seem that making the growth of the leaven a picture of the spread of the Gospel throughout the world would violate the meaning of this important symbol. It would also contradict the other parables.
Satan has worked hard to introduce false doctrine and false living into the ministry of the Word of God. From the very early days of the church, true believers have battled false doctrine and hypocrisy. How sad it is that some churches and schools that were once true to the Word have turned from the truth to fables. “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” is sound counsel (1 Thes. 5:21).
The kingdom of heaven began with the sowing of the Word of God in the hearts of men. Much of the seed did not bear fruit; but some was fruitful. Satan opposed the work of God by sowing counterfeit Christians, by encouraging a false growth, and by introducing false doctrine. It would seem that Satan is winning! But the test is at the end of the age, not during the age.
Wiersbe
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
