Home / Christian Website Hosting / Christian Domain Names / Christian Search Engine
Rules, Policies, and Disclaimers

Christian Message Boards


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Bible Topics & Study   » carnal but still brethren (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: carnal but still brethren
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi,
Ive never really used that term before. If you look up the word "believe" in the bible dictionary when referring to "believing" in God or Christ it states that it is not just a mental assent of the truth that constitutes true believing. It also involves relying on, and committing oneself towards Christ. With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1

Icon 1 posted      Profile for KnowHim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I posted this near the top of this thread:

"Easy Believism" is the idea that having a mental belief in Jesus Christ is the same as obtaining salvation. In other words, this false doctrine teaches that people only need to believe correct doctrines about Jesus or salvation rather than actually trusting Jesus Christ Himself for salvation. The Bible refutes this heretical false teaching, noting that the "devils also believe and tremble". (James 2:19)

Easy-Believism is related to such terms as “Decisionism", "Easy Prayerism" and “Salvation by Works”. The heresy of Easy Believism is popularized today by such men as Rick Warren. Various "evangelists" often like to propagate this heresy, since it is easier to get people to believe some basic Bible facts than it is to get them to actually trust the real Jesus for their salvation. Such evangelists can then "count lots of numbers" of those sheep (i.e. goats) who have assented to certain mental beliefs. This helps such "hirelings" to "prop up" the "numbers" of people "saved" during their evangelistic meetings.

Many pastors also like to promote this heresy as well, since it helps them to avoid having to think about the need to actually get their people truly converted. With Easy-Believism, they only need to get their people to mentally assent to ("believe") a few Bible facts. Very often, pastors who promote this false doctrine are lost men themselves, which helps to explain why they would be willing to promote such a demonic soul-damming false doctrine.

Of course, it is both right and indeed quite easy to trust Jesus. Nevertheless, only having a mental belief in Jesus is not the same as actually trusting Jesus. When men and women "believe and tremble" but do not actually trust Jesus Christ Himself alone for their salvation, they remain lost in their sins. They remain Satan's "goats" instead of Christ's "sheep", on the road to Hell and not on the way to Heaven. Too many people have had such a mental belief in certain Bible facts, but have never actually trusted Jesus. Jesus is up in Heaven right now desiring that men and women should trust Him for their salvation.

The wide-spread teaching of this false doctrine of "Easy Believism" is a major cause for much of the "lukewarmness" we see in so many churches during this current Laodicean church age, since most church members in today's typical churches have only had a mental belief in Jesus and/or Bible doctrines. They are therefore still lost men and women on the road down to an eternity in Hell. Lost men and women do not love Jesus. Churches filled with such "goats" are therefore generally "lukewarm" and not "hot" for Jesus and the Bible.

--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox

Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
corriee
Advanced Member
Member # 6705

Icon 1 posted      Profile for corriee   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No one knows when a person is saved or just acts it out. But, when one goes to a catacism class and graduates saved from it, that is easy believism.
Also if one professes to be saved and has not been quickened by the Holy Spirit,but just said a simple prayer without the sealing of the Holy Spirit, then that is easy believism.
But again, people base their thoughts of whether or not a person is saved on the fruit and by their life style. However,I don't believe that anyone knows their heart but God. No one knows if another is saved or not.

Posts: 53 | From: Close to the heart of Texas | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Great post and question, sevenlamps. Since the words "easy believism" do not occur in the Bible, what do those of you who use that phrase mean by that phrase?

I think sevenlamps had it right in that you are applying it to people who do not seem to be growing spiritually after they had said the sinner's prayer?

good thread, BTW.

with love,
Eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sevenlamps
Advanced Member
Member # 6715

Icon 1 posted      Profile for sevenlamps     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have been reading this thread. What is meant by 'easy believism'? It seems everyone has a different definition of that phrase. I don't think I ever saw that term in the word so I am wondering how to define it. The best verse I can find is Mark 5:36 -Be not afraid,only believe- The early church did not have printed material widely distributed in those days. So there couldn't have been lots of theologians. Many people knew the old testament but the new testament letters were not widely studied. So mistakes must have abounded much like today. It sounds like you are applying it to christians who do not want to grow in the word but just claim they are christians because they said a sinner's prayer. Or is there a wider definition to it? We should discuss that and see what Jesus taught. What comes to my mind is the story about the taxgatherer that Jesus dined with. When the taxgatherer decided to return much of the money he had collected Jesus said 'Today salvation has come to this household'. Was this easy believism or was Jesus prophecying or something? If a preacher did that today wouldn't many people accuse him of false doctrine? I guess I need to keep praying about what this means.

--------------------
Don't grieve the Holy Spirit

Posts: 63 | From: usa | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi again Dave B.,
I would like to use two of your statements here to begin my thread.

We cannot respond to the gospel unless God quickens us
and

We are believers by Gods sovereign act

These two statements above are the voice of one who believes that they have "cracked the code" of predestination. Im sure that everyone on this site believes that our God is sovereign....but here is the thing..... We differ on how we believe that God exercises that sovereignty. The two statements above are from the voice of men who feel that they have solved the missing link...that great and awesome question of...how does God choose his elect? I will tell you that if we all knew the mind of God we could answer that question, but the problem is that we dont. But I do know that if God did use that method, it would show Him to be a God of favoritism. We would all be wondering if we really have his spirit...."Im frightened and I dont know if God has chosen me" would be our thought. "Could I choose to love God, but not be on his wanted list?"

First the Word comes
then our spirit is convicted of sin, by the Word.
then we are given a choice
Do we confess our sin, and turn from it or do we decide we would rather ignore it and live on

Then we are called to believe on the Lord Jesus. We place our trust in Him ,accept His forgiveness, and commit to His Lordship

Now the devil comes roaring in to test our hearts and attempt to draw us away from the Lord and our faithfullness towards Him.

We realize the importance in abiding in the Words of Christ and allow his words to become life to us as we see the eternal purpose behind them.

In Gods perfect timing, we are then given assurance of Gods presence with us......but here is the thing.....this assurance is not first and foremost to give confidence in salvation as much as it is to bear witness to the truth of the exaltation of Christ to the right hand of the Father. Through perseverance and the strength of the Lord we press on in the faith.

Dave B., you ask me where does that faith come from? my aswer is....God gives everyone the ability to believe...for we all believe in something.....what matters is where we put that belief. Its not about how much faith we have, its about where our faith is directed.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
corriee
Advanced Member
Member # 6705

Icon 1 posted      Profile for corriee   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It would seem to me that John 3:16 would sum
it up. It says whosoever believeth in Him.
More than that we cannot do.

Posts: 53 | From: Close to the heart of Texas | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi again Dave B.
I believe that if anyone is quickened it is by the truth of the gospel as it gives us hope. We must open our hearts to that truth and receive it. I do not believe that God picks out only certain individuals to quicken so that they will believe the gospel...since believing is a command. Faith is both the gift of God, and the response of man....even the bible dictionary defines it that way. Here is where you and I may really disagree...I believe that a heart response on our part is required. It seems that the theology on your end places no responsibility or accountability on mans role. Surely the gift comes with warnings to us all. With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi, Dave B. You said:

“For starters, we can read Ephesians 2:8-10.

‘For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith--and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do’.”

Eden here:

Dear Dave B., it seems that you put a different interpretation on the phrase, “through faith,” than I have historically interpreted that phrase “through faith.”

YOU interpret the phrase as it means that God gives us the faith.

Whereas, I interpret the phrase that “I AM saved through grace”, WHICH IS GOD’S PART, and “through faith” refers to MY PART. As sister Corriee (I think) said, that “we hear the Word of God and we respond to the Word of God” and that is called “faith”; it is the part that WE HUMANS DO while God and Jesus do the SUPPLYING OF THE SAVED BY GRACE part.

How would you answer the above, Dave B.?

Thank you,
Eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sevenlamps
Advanced Member
Member # 6715

Icon 1 posted      Profile for sevenlamps     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? Paul asked this question to new believers who responded they didn't know their was a Holy Ghost. Paul then prayed for them to receive Him. The Holy Spirit is our seal of redemption. If their is carnality in a person's life including unforgiveness, it is probably because they have not been sealed by His Spirit. The bible talks about the Fruit of the Spirit(love,joy,peace,goodness,kindness,meekness,gentleness,longsuffering,faith,temperance) and gifts of the Spirit(healing,prophecy,discernment of spirits,miracles,word of wisdom,word of knowledge,tongues,and interpretation of tongues). The Holy Spirit convicts of sin,righteousness, and judgement. His purpose is to lead us to Jesus for cleansing.(sanctification)

--------------------
Don't grieve the Holy Spirit

Posts: 63 | From: usa | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
corriee
Advanced Member
Member # 6705

Icon 1 posted      Profile for corriee   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I believe that..but what or where does that leave back-sliders? Those who are saved but,
get caught up in the world for a time?
Thanks for explaining to me again this topic,
I get side tracked or something. I like the
christian love and kindness on this board. It is
not found much in other places.

Posts: 53 | From: Close to the heart of Texas | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dave B.
Advanced Member
Member # 6710

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Dave B.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Daniel,

Ok, let me try to responde to your concerns now.
Below is the lst couple of lines of your post:

But why go through all that.....none of us is saved because we have the right theology figured out....if we are saved it is because we do indeed have genuine faith in the Lord....a faith that is willing to die for His cause.

So I have two questions:

1. I agree with completely, that if we have genuine faith in the Lord, we are saved. So my question to you is, where does that faith come from, according to the Bible?

2. You said I might convince you that my theology is right.... So my question is, please explain to me what my Theology is? I will tell you if you have it right.

You are right that God does not pick favorites. God has a plan to save a lot of people. These people are saved by the hearing of the word and are made alive by God, while they are still dead in transgressions (Eph 2:1-10). Our faith was not generated by us when we heard the word of God, because before God saves us, we are spiritually dead. We cannot hear and respond to the gospel unless God quickens us. And God quickens those he plans to save. In the Bible, these people are referred to by Jesus as "the elect".

So I am sure, because of yours, Corriee's and eden's faith, that you are all believers. So am I. I just wanted to stress that we are believers by the gracious and sovereign acts of God. If any of us or any one reading this claims to be a believer, but they are not showing in their lives, the biblical evidence of salvation, then we do them a dis-service by telling them they are a "carnal christian". It may be they have not been converted at all.

In today's churches, I see all the time, people saying "oh, you are a Christian because you have accepted Jesus into your heart...you are living a sinful lifestyle because you are a carnal christian". The fact is, we cannot tell of they are saved or not, if the evidence of salvation is not apparent through a transformed life. That goes for all of us. So let us again examine ourselves and pray for each other in love. If any of us is not certain of our salvation, flee to Christ now! He is the only one who can save us.

Thanks again,

Dave B.

Posts: 28 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dave B.
Advanced Member
Member # 6710

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Dave B.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hello again everyone,

Wow, lots of responses. I will try to answer each of your questions in time. There is a lot of material to cover.

Corriee, we are not questioning one another's salvation. We are trying to understand what salvation is, in the context of Eden's original question regarding "carnal christians". I assume all of you are believers.

Eden, let me answer your question first. You asked me where in the Bible, God gives us the faith to believe. There are many places. For starters, we can read Ephesians 2:8-10.

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith--and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

The phrase "through faith" in the original language means "by means of faith". It does not mean "because of faith". Even the belief which we express is a gift from God. Belief is ours of course, but it came from God in His timing. According to the Bible, before God saves us, we are dead in trespasses and sins and although we are responsible to believe, the sad fact is, no one will believe unless God regenerates them first. That is one reason why Jesus said "That is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is given to him of my Father (John 6:65).

So also to answer one-in-christ's question, Yes, God does in fact-kick-start, or cause, the sinner to believe. That is exactly what biblical salvation is. In our experience of course, we are commanded to believe, and some believe. But the Bible is very clear that our believing, if it is saving faith, is the result of God intending to save us, and making us born-again at the time God has determined to do so. And God does this, by the hearing of his word.

So again to answer one in christ, we are not saved randomly as you suggested I said...we are saved as part of the plan of God to save a great many people. And faith is not the basis of our salvation, but the instrument (see eph 2:8-9 above). The basis of our salvation is Jesus' work on the cross, and his perfect keeping of the law on behalf of those he came to save.

That is why it is so important to preach the gospel as we are commanded to do. We need to preach the gospel, including the parts about Hell. Today's churches over-emphasize the "love" of Jesus and try to persuade people to "make a decision". Notice the Biblical preachers spoke more of coming judgement and of the awful realities of sin. when they talked about the love of God, it was in the context of what we are being saved from.

Well, again, thanks for listening. I will try to answer the rest in later posts. Corriee, I hope we have not offended you. I am very happy God has been gracious to us all, and has put all of you in this forum. May God bless you all.

Posts: 28 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
corriee
Advanced Member
Member # 6705

Icon 1 posted      Profile for corriee   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Salvation is a personal thing between man and God. There is but one way. That is God's way
and you find that by reading the Scriptures.
This is not a discussion that is beneficial to people as far as I can see. No matter what one does to explain salvation, someone else has another rule, or something different.What are we doing, questioning each others salvation? Why? This is crazy. We should accept those who claim to be Christian and love them as brothers and sisters in the Lord until they show themselves as unbelievers or teaching wrong.
The Bible is very clear on this. It is very clear on salvation. Is there a purpose that is pleasing to Jesus in this? I don't understand.

Posts: 53 | From: Close to the heart of Texas | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi again Dave B,
The truth is is that we are drawn to the Lord by the Gospel message itself. God does not give anyone a kickstart so that they are then able to believe. If we are not convinced of the love of God by the message of the gospel then our own hearts will condemn us as we remain in unbelief. Unbelief is disobedience. The question is not whether or not we can believe the gospel, the question is whether or not we will believe the gospel. If we choose not to believe we condemn ourselves. The disciples were hand-picked by Jesus, and Paul was personally chastisted by Jesus and charged with the gospel. We have the gospel preached to us. If unbelief was not disobedience then Jesus would not have scolded the unbelieving Jews. Why would someone be scolded for something they couldnt help? Paul spoke of Faith as a gift of God because He did not want any one to pat theirselves on the back for faith in Christ as if they were the author of the redemptive plan themselves. Paul desired to prevent arrogance and boastfullness in us that would not forget the source of the Gift. So Faith is a gift, because Jesus is a gift. This does not mean that we are given a mysterious quickening in order that we are able to believe. We are still commanded to repent and believe. This belief is not just a mental assent, but it is an active faith that hears and obeys the Words of Christ. Sufficiency in the atonement is not a question. The blood of Jesus satisfies Gods demand for a pure and innocent sacrifice for our sin. Sufficiency in our faith is the question. Do we only say that we believe, but our hearts are far from God? or has our faith withstood the trial by fire? God sees our hearts and we cant fake a sincerity towards Him. Now you may be thinking that I am describing how a man saves himself? wrong! Jesus is the author of our salvation and He reveals the conditions. If I do not take to heart His conditions, then I do not have true faith in Jesus. I personally believe that too many people get stuck in theological debates and argue over all kinds of terminology. Here is the truth laid out as simple as 1,2,3. Do as Jesus says and you cannot go wrong. I will hang all my accountability and responsibility to the Lord on that statement. It seems like we all have a method, a new chronological sequence of events, a new prayer to pray, etc. but its the Word of the Lord that endures forever. Im so tired of the Predestination argument, it ends in contention and shows lack of obedience to the law of love in the family of God. It seems like every has a different idea of what it means to be born again. I can tell you Im not so sure about all the sequence of events to be born again, but I am confident that I know how......Place trust in Jesus Christ, and commit yourself to Gods will. The Holy Spirit will not give assurance to one who has not committed to the will of God. The Son will only give legal authority for the spirit to minister according to Gods will period.
So why do we make it seem like its such a mystery to be born again. Jesus emphasized this truth to Nicodemus because He knew that Nicodemus put too much trust in the outward signs. Dave B., God loves us all the same and He does not pick favorites. Jesus died for the worst of sins. You may be able to convince me of your theology if you can prove to me that unbelief is not disobedience. But why go through all that.....none of us is saved because we have the right theology figured out....if we are saved it is because we do indeed have genuine faith in the Lord....a faith that is willing to die for His cause. With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
corriee
Advanced Member
Member # 6705

Icon 1 posted      Profile for corriee   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't believe we 'cause' God to do anything.
What I do believe is that we hear the Word of
God preached, are convicted by the Holy Spirit,
and believe. It is really very simple. Some have rejected the idea of salvation being simple because peple made it to be like the 'sinners prayer' or easy believeism, but that doesn't change the fact that God made it very simple.
Everything is done already through Christ, we
just look by faith and trust Him. There are no
stepts. There is a progression perhaps for some,
little children come the same way to Christ as a harden criminal, the progression could be that the criminal has to hear the word many times before that belief begans, but it is still the
hearing, looking, turning and believing that saves. At least that is what I believe.

Posts: 53 | From: Close to the heart of Texas | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi again Dave B.,
I have the feeling that most christians on this site do not believe that we are saved by saying the sinners prayer. The idea of acceptance I believe still holds water. We enter the New Covenant by agreeing with God that Jesus Christ is our savior and Lord. I surely dont believe in a random selection, but a righteous election that is based on faith in Jesus. We all have the same sin, so no one is given the ability to believe over another. God gives us a choice to make....are we going to decide to put trust in Him and His Word or are we going to reject it?
Our faith is tested and that is why we are told to examine our hearts. With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hello, Dave B. You said:

“Carrie, I agree with you, that we are saved when we come to repentance, to faith in Christ etc. However, we do not "cause" God to save us by doing these things. We do these things as a response to God making us "born-again".

Eden here:

It took me a number of years of hearing the Word of God before I was finally able to admit I was a sinner and get saved. Now, Dave B., you said:

“…We do these things as a response to God making us "born-again".

So, according to your idea, was I already “born-again” the first day I started to read the first part of the Bible, or was I “being born-again” while I was reading the Word of God for lo, those many years, or was I “born-again” when I FINALLY BELIEVED?

I tend to think that I was not “born-again” until AFTER these many years of reading and/or hearing the Word of God and not before.

So Dave B., what do you mean then by your statement:

“However, we do not ‘cause’ God to save us by doing these things. We do these things as a response to God making us ‘born-again.”

Dave B., is this an instant “being born-again” or a “gradual born-again”, or how does that work in your opinion?

And I finished reading, you said in your post that God gives us the faith to believe. If I may ask, Dave B., where exactly in the Bible does God say that? I've heard people say that before, but I can't put my finger on a scripture right of hand, and that verse is, what again?

Thank you!
Eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hello, Dave. B. You said:

“The statement ‘Man has almost nothing to do with his salvation, only accept or reject Christ’ is incorrect. Man has nothing to do with his salvation period. Regeneration (John 3:3) is an act of God, in which the sinner, dead in trespasses and sins and the enemy of God, is transformed into a new creature in Christ. The result of this is conversion, which is manifested in the believer's life by faith and repentance.”

Eden here:

On the other hand, God has placed into the world the Word of God and men are preaching this Word everywhere and those humans who hear the Word of God end up believing that Jesus the Christ, the Savior of the world. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Now, I could try to say that that God wrote the Word of God and that man had nothing to do with the creation of the Word of God, but even in the creation of the Word of God, man was a co-laborer with the God of Israel.

Although men’s spirits were practically dead and idle because the Holy Spirit had not dwelled in men’s spirits since Adam and Eve, yet man’s spirit was functional enough to still be able to recognize the Word of God or the Word of the Spirit that Adam and Eve used to hear in their spirits.

Dear Dave B. (and thank you, by the way, for your contributions), I had said that man had to “accept” or “reject” salvation, but, to repeat what you said:

“The statement ‘Man has almost nothing to do with his salvation, only accept or reject Christ’ is incorrect. Man has nothing to do with his salvation period. Regeneration (John 3:3) is an act of God, in which the sinner, dead in trespasses and sins and the enemy of God, is transformed into a new creature in Christ. The result of this is conversion, which is manifested in the believer's life by faith and repentance.”

So Dave B., is the sinner able to believe from the written Word of God, or not, and if the sinner can be saved from hearing or reading the written Word of God, in what way is that still not accepting or rejecting?

with love in Christ,
Eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dave B.
Advanced Member
Member # 6710

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Dave B.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hello again,

Daniel, Carrie, excellent comments.

There are two kinds of covenants in the Bible. One of them, requires the performance of two parties to make it genuine. For example, the covenant between God and the nation of Israel. The other kind requires only the keeping of the covenant by God. For example, God's "everlasting" covenant with Abraham.

Carrie, I agree with you, that we are saved when we come to repentance, to faith in Christ etc. However, we do not "cause" God to save us by doing these things. We do these things as a response to God making us "born-again".

Salvation is a gracious act of God, done by God, in God's timing, to whomsoever God decides to save. We cannot perform any religious act, deed, decision or anything to cause God to react to us, and then save us. Our response to this is to behave as you have suggested...repentance, love, conviction of sin, turning to Christ, a transformed life, confession of sin etc.

Sadly, in most evangelical churches today, we have turned the gospel message around, to a message where "you can be a Christian right now, if you will come forward and accept Jesus into your heart". This idea is not taught anywhere in the Bible. It is a made-made religion, where we must perform a religious act, or follow a religious formula, and do it "sincerely", in order to cause our new birth.

Remember, the Bible calls all men to repent and believe. This belief is called faith and faith comes as a gift from God. Unlike human gifts, this gift does not wait to be 'opened', but is given by God to the sinner, while the sinner is yet dead in trespasses and sins. This is why Jesus in John 6 says "No man is able to come to me, unless the Father who sent me drag him".

The reason I explained this in Eden's forum, is that we have a gospel today, that says if you perform the act of acceptance, you are a Christian, no matter what kind of life you live after that. This is not the teaching of the Bible. Do not be deceived. Faith with repentance are the consequences of the new birth. And this new birth is an act of God, initiated by God without help from man. If we are not living a transformed life, then we must question whether we are really converted, or did we just make a psychological response to an altar call at some point in our life.

Well, thanks for listening. Hope this helps. Thanks for hosting this discussion Eden.

Dave B.

Posts: 28 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
corriee
Advanced Member
Member # 6705

Icon 1 posted      Profile for corriee   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
We become Christians by the hearing of the Word,
realizing we are a sinner, repenting of our sins and turning to Jesus Christ by faith in His death, burial and resurrection.
We are not saved by His life, but by His precious blood shed on the cross.
The moment we come to Him in faith, the Holy Spirit justifies us and places us in Christ.
This is what I believe.

Posts: 53 | From: Close to the heart of Texas | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Dave B.
Its nice to meet you. I guess I am not quite sure when you say that salvation has nothing to do with man....isnt a covenant an agreement between two or more parties? With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dave B.
Advanced Member
Member # 6710

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Dave B.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hello again Eden and OneinChrist,

Again, a great discussion.

We should clear up some misunderstandings on what salvation is and how it is accomplished.

The statement "Man has almost nothing to do with his salvation, only accept or reject Christ" is incorrect. Man has nothing to do with his salvation period. Regeneration (John 3:3) is an act of God, in which the sinner, dead in trespasses and sins and the enemy of God, is transformed into a new creature in Christ. The result of this is conversion, which is manifested in the believer's life by faith and repentance.

The response of some, who have been converted, is to "accept Christ". That's fine, if it is the result of God having saved them at that moment. in modern churches, we have "turned it around", placing regeneration after conversion, so that God responds to the sinner 'accepting Christ' by then regenerating him or her.

The idea that we are regenerated or 'born again' after we "accept Christ" is not the gospel. Because it pre-supposes that God reacts to the sinner, that God is not in control of who is saved and that a sinner, while dead in sins, can make a choice contrary to his own nature. Furthermore, this idea makes the performance of a religious act (accepting Christ) the determining, or concluding factor in their salvation.

In saying this, I am not suggesting anyone on this forum is not saved. I just wanteds to clear up this misunderstanding, because it is through these mis-understandings of what salvation is, that we get the other things wrong as well.

Hope this helps,

Dave B.

Posts: 28 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
IAAFOTL
Advanced Member
Member # 6414

Icon 1 posted      Profile for IAAFOTL   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Amen, Eden. (that kind of goes without saying.) He wouldn't repent of sin he couldn't see, that is where the fellowship with the Lord comes in as so important. In the presence of the Lord, we can see ourselves how we really are. [Eek!] Lord have mercy! (besides, without fellowship with the Lord, all we really have is an empty dead religion)

David also made a point to say that He sinned, not against man, (although he did) but he sinned against God, which is truly the absolute case!
That's why the two commandments encompass ALL of the commandments, the law and the prophets.
(Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.)

Praise God though, that we know we belong to Him when we can see ourselves truly the way we are, by the illumination of the Holy Ghost on our hearts and we are convicted in our consciences and we do respond with repentance.

If we will confess our sins, the Lord Jesus is faithful to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[clap2]

Let us never obtain a seared conscience that can no longer hear the correction and prodding of the Lord. (which can and will happen if we ignore the Holy Spirit's prodding consistently enough).

Let us remain in close fellowship, and sensitive to the Holy Spirit and keep short accounts with Him. Let us strive to obey in all things, and if we fail, let us be quick to run to the mercy seat, repent of our sin(confess and turn from it)and receive mercy. His mercies are new every morning, let us live lives that show our love and gratitude to the one who loved us first!

--------------------
Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
_ ____ _
My screen name stands for "I am a Friend of The Lord's"

Posts: 64 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
IAAFOTL, I especially like this part of your post:

"He {David} lived a lifestyle of fellowship with the Lord and was quick to seek forgiveness. He did not practice sin, He practised repentance."

A very good word. May I add to that, "He practised repentance of sin which he saw in him".

with love in Him,
Eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
oneinchrist, your last post was a goodly post:

"Good Morning Eden,
We are in one accord as far as how we look at sin, and I thank the Lord for that. Eden, from a friend in the Lord to another...this is my main concern....that the confidence that you maintain in the death and resurrection of Christ moves you in the direction of Godliness for the glory of Christ, and to the fruitfullness of one who is entrusted with Gods word through obedience. With love in Christ, Daniel.

Eden here: Amen, my brother.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
IAAFOTL
Advanced Member
Member # 6414

Icon 1 posted      Profile for IAAFOTL   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Many people look to David's life to justify lifestyles of sin. But what they fail to acknowledge is that David did not live a lifestyle of sin. He committed some noteworthy sin which I believe God is using to show us that no matter how vile we are, or what we have done, that if we will humble ourselves and repent, that we will find mercy. David also was before the shed blood of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,
yet David was a great example on how to repent.

He lived a lifestyle of fellowship with the Lord and was quick to seek forgiveness. He did not practice sin, He practiced repentance. How much more so with what has been given us do we think the Lord might expect?

We also do not see David doing what he did to Bathsheba's husband a second time much less over and over, or coveting another man's wife again.

This is the difference that we have to understand and not confuse who the Scripture in chapter 5 of 1 Corinthians is speaking about.

Being saved from the penalty of sin, should not be equal in our minds and hearts to a license to live a lifestyle of sin, and keep attempting to put old wine in a new wine skin. It is time to drink the new wine, once you have been provided a new wine skin.

Be ye separate, the Word says, not be ye the same as the world.

--------------------
Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
_ ____ _
My screen name stands for "I am a Friend of The Lord's"

Posts: 64 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Good Morning Eden,
I apologize for the misunderstanding about your question about particular sins. Forgive me brother. We are in one accord as far as how we look at sin, and I thank the Lord for that. Eden, from a friend in the Lord to another...this is my main concern....that the confidence that you maintain in the death and resurrection of Christ moves you in the direction of Godliness for the glory of Christ, and to the fruitfullness of one who is entrusted with Gods word through obedience. With love in Christ, Daniel.

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hello, oneinchrist. You said to me:

“Eden, I see no need to go into details on what particular sins I have repented of.”

Eden here:

I was wondering, isn’t it rather a case of “our ongoing repenting” of our particular sins which to continue to recur, rather than “what particular sins I (you) have repented of” as if our sins no longer exist or are active and recur?

oneinchrist, you also said:

“God is looking for a repentant heart and that is what matters in order to maintain fellowship with him. I do not have a passive attitude towards sin, and I believe that it is wrong to project that type of attitude towards sin.”

Eden here:

Passive attitude toward sin? First of all, I must separate salvation from sanctification here.

We receive salvation for free because of what Jesus did; that salvation was something between God and Jesus and man had almost nothing to do with salvation, other than accept salvation or reject salvation. Repent of having done things my soul way, and after that salvation is free.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

But oneinchrist, when you say I do not have a passive attitude toward sin, I rush to assure you that I also do not have a passive attitude toward sin.

Why? Because my sins are NOT part of salvation, which sins Jesus already paid for, but my ongoing sins are a part of sanctification, which is an interactive process between 4 persons, namely (1) between the LORD YHWH in heaven, and (2) between the Lord Jesus in heaven, and (3) the Holy Spirit inside the spirit of the believer, and (4) between the new believer.

And that interactive process between these 4 persons is called sanctification and sanctification is a lifelong project, for all 4 persons concerned.

And if I may say, I do NOT take a passive attitude toward sins in the process of sanctification: I try to cooperate with the Three of Them in this lifelong process of sanctification, which to me means the “process of learning to live by my spirit instead of by my soul”.

oneinchrist, if I may repeat part of what you said:

“I do not have a passive attitude towards sin, and I believe that it is wrong to project that type of attitude towards sin.”

I too would think that it would be “wrong to have a passive attitude toward sin” in the process of sanctification and I too think that it would be wrong (or at least dumb) to have that type of attitude toward sin” in the process of sanctification, oneinchrist. I believe in sanctification.

But, salvation was and is free, by the work that Jesus and God did, and man had almost nothing to do with the work of salvation; man only accepts or rejects the free gift of salvation. Man only is involved in the sanctification process.

with love,
Eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dave B.
Advanced Member
Member # 6710

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Dave B.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hello everyone,

Eden, you make an excellent point about 1 Cor 5. We can also see in King David's life, it is possible to commit serious sin while being saved at the same time. In 1 John, we are taught that if we say we have no sin, we lie and deceive ourselves. All of us believers have remaining sin which we, like Paul in Rom 7, struglle to put to death.

In 1 Cor 5, we have an example of church discipline, and the seriousness of neglecting church discipline. In our day, I have observed in evangelical churches, we shy away from discipline, in the name of "love". In the Bible there is a difference between "love" and denial.

In 1 Cor, the goal of discipline was twofold. 1. it was to keep the church members serious about sin and 2. it was to restore the offending believer. There is evidence in 2 Cor that this erring person was restored. If it is the same person spoken of in 1 Cor 5, then being delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (yikes) had a good purpose.

Today, we tend to just label people who seems to not live a transformed life as "carnal christians" and let them alone. The fact is, if a person professes to be a believer and does not exhibit a transformed life, we simply cannot tell if they are a believer or not! If they are, God will restore them, but the process may be painful. If they are not, we do them a tragic disservice by telling them they are Christians, but just carnal. Notice Paul never let the people he called "carnal" get away with it. They were all seriously rebuked - One, for what he did, and the rest for what they failed to do.

I believe the source of the error rests in our faulty understanding of what salvation is. Most churches today teach that one is a Christian, who has performed the act of "accepting Christ". Do nto be decieved. Accepting Christ is a religious act. Some people may have come forward and performed this act, in response to God having saved them, but many do so as a psychological response, without conversion. I say this because the Bible does not give the performance of any religious act, formula or exercise as the cause, or trigger, for their salvation.

The Bible simply calls on all to believe. And that believe is called faith, and faith comes only from God. Like I said, our responses may be because of faith, but never the cause of it. But because many, many churches equate "accepting Christ" with "OK, now you have new life in Christ", they get freaked out when the person, some time later, never has exhibited the Biblical evidences of salvation namely, 1. A transformed life (love, repentance, confession etc., hatred for sin in his life) 2. the witness of the Spirit with our spirit that wee are children of God (Read what the men on the road to Emmaus said) and 3. The breaking of the reigning power of sin in the life.

Has the reigning power of sin been broken in your life? Are you a praying person? Do we agonize about the sin remaining in our members? If not, ask yourselves if you have been converted, or did you just make a psychological "decision" for Christ?

I hope this helps. Love all of you guys,

Dave B.

Posts: 28 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi again Eden,
Eden, I see no need to go into details on what particular sins I have repented of. God is looking for a repentant heart and that is what matters in order to maintain fellowship with him. I do not have a passive attitude towards sin, and I believe that it is wrong to project that type of attitude towards sin. Paul warns against carnal mindedness, he does not imply that its ok. Paul states that the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be...and that to be carnally minded is death. Paul is warning them of the danger. The book of Hebrews declares the danger of willfull sinning and we should take it as another warning.

It is the ploy of the devil himself to create a passivity towards sin, all in an effort to draw us away from the Lord and effective witness.

What does it mean to obey the gospel? you ask me.
It means to obey the Words of Christ. If we obey not the words of the One who saves, we do not have true faith. It is the Fathers will that we hear and obey the Son. If we do this, we are doing the will of God. Jesus says "Who is my mother and my brother, and my sister....they that do the will of my Father in Heaven and He also says, Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven. Well, we know His will , it is to hear and obey the Son.

1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi, oneinchrist. You said:

“Eden, I will answer your question but I would like to add before I give you my answer that I acknowledge that we cannot be perfectly obedient.

Eden here: Agree. You again:

“God desires our hearts towards Him, but He knows that we are still human. If we fail He wants us to realize our limits, if we sin he wants us to repent

Eden here: Ok, in the above, what sin do you in mind for instance? Give me one or more examples of what you would consider sin.

oneinchrist continued:

“if we are tempted he wants us to flee, if we feel lonely he wants us to trust his presence, If we feel overburdened, he wants us to place our burdens before Him, if we are ridiculed He wants us to maintain our Hope, if we offend another He wants us to reconcile, if we are bitter in unforgiveness He wants us to remember what we have been forgiven of, and the list goes on as the Lord desires that we trust in His faithfullness to the end.

Eden here: yes, I agree with you that these are the things that the Lord desires of ALL His adopted Family members. But as with all ADOPTED children—Adam and Eve children adopted from the earth and accustomed to listening to Lucifer for millennia—God knows that all His adopted sons and daughters will act up or will be good children who help out in the Family of God.

Because God has harvested us from the corrupt earth, God’s newly Adopted Children are all different, with different capabilities. In regards of the totality of what God asks of us, God knows that we all ONLY WILL ACHIEVE IN PART.

Paul said that the Corinthian Christians were STILL brethern eventhough Paul also called them carnal, but when Paul ends his letter of 1 Corinthians, Paul STILL calls them BRETHREN and MORE:

1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand

1 Corinthians 16

19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

20 All the brethren greet you. Greet one another with a holy kiss.

This is the same church that Paul address as only-milk-fed carnal brethren, but other than that carnal description, Paul said some very “we greet the church which is in Corinth” kind of thing, and to the very end Paul calls them brethren, which word means STILL IN THE CHURCH, according to Paul.

oneinchrist continued:

“This is my answer Eden, my friend in the Lord. I do strive to obey the gospel to the best of my ability. What is the warning that Peter sounds off in 1Peter4:17....For the time has come for judgement to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? and Paul sounds a similar warning in 2Thess.1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Its much about us being willing to suffer for Gods glory Eden.

Eden here: Yes, I personally agree with that, I have seen that the LORD God of Israel and His Son the Lord Jesus are much smarter and wiser and calmer and nicer than my Adamic-Eve will EVER be, so I personally HAVE chosen the way of Christ: do something to help out.

But whether people who go to church on Sundays but then never pick up the Bible or do not listen to worship music but do everything the world does during the six other days of the week…I’m too sure that the Bible is real that I can now, thanks be to God, RUN to the LORD instead of do nothing.

But why do some Christians get more ACTIVE and EXCITED about their Lord and LORD than others?

oneinchrist continued:

“Now may I ask you a question? Do you believe that it is possible to be saved by believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus alone, without obeying the gospel? With love in Christ, Daniel

Eden here: If someone believes in the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth then they probably also know quite a bit about the gospel.

Therefore I have to ask you, what do you mean by the phrase, “is it possible to be saved by believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus alone, without obeying the gospel

Regarding the bolded part, oneinchrist, what to you IS obeying the gospel after one has already believed in the death and resurrection of Jesus alone, what is that gospel which you want me to obey next”?

Thank you,
Eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi again Eden,
The matter of the will is where you and I may come into some disagreement..but Im not sure.
See if you disagree with how I see it. You speak of the will being made willing and how you believe that it comes into effect by the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and circumstances by God. I would not go without explaining the need for us to allow the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and circumstances by God to crucify our will. God does not impose His will on us and neither is it an automatic process without our yielding hearts. What did Jesus say to the 12 when many of the disciples walked away offended by His words?..."Do you also want to go away?" This shows us that the Lord does leave us with choices to make. The question is are we also going to be offended by Jesus' hard sayings and turn away? This is a question that we all have to ask ourselves. The Lord beckons us to come to Him, but we must be willing to join Him on His terms. God does desire that the message of the cross is what motivates our hearts to draw near Him. What is the old testament prophecy? Behold the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah........I will put my law in thier minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. So what is this law? Well, we know that Jesus is the lawgiver....so He must be the one to reveal this law. Where is it contained? in the gospels as every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of Jesus(as the living Word). I hope you are not waiting for me to give you a list of Daniels commandments to obey. I might just pick and choose the ones I like then. John gives 2 commandments in 1John, but then there is also the greatest commandment which is still the greatest commandment. Then there are the ten commandments which are still in effect according to Jesus. Then there is the command to repent and believe...it goes on and on as long as our Lord speaks.
Eden, I will aswer your question but I would like to add before I give you my answer that I acknowledge that we cannot be perfectly obedient. God desires our hearts towards Him, but He knows that we are still human. If we fail He wants us to realize our limits, if we sin he wants us to repent, if we are tempted he wants us to flee, if we feel lonely he wants us to trust his presence, If we feel overburdened, he wants us to place our burdens before Him, if we are ridiculed He wants us to maintain our Hope, if we offend another He wants us to reconcile, if we are bitter in unforgiveness He wants us to remember what we have been forgiven of, and the list goes on as the Lord desires that we trust in His faithfullness to the end.
This is my answer Eden, my freind in the Lord. I do strive to obey the gospel to the best of my ability. What is the warning that Peter sounds off in 1Peter4:17....For the time has come for judgement to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? and Paul sounds a similar warning in 2Thess.1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Its much about us being willing to suffer for Gods glory Eden.
Now may I ask you a question? Do you believe that it is possible to be saved by believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus alone, without obeying the gospel? With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi, oneinchrist. You said:

“Peter was rebuked by Jesus when He asked for increased faith (after Jesus told Him that we shall forgive up to 70x7). It is not that we are not capable to obey the Lords command, it is that we are unwilling.

Eden here:

Yes, that is true, we are unwilling. But the will is an instrument of the soul and if the will is not willing, how can the will be made willing?

The will of the soul can be made willing by the Holy Spirit and by the Word of God and by circumstances set in our path by the God of Israel, but if the will of the soul is still not willing, then the soul remains in control.

But I would ask you again, oneinchrist, as a practical matter.

Assuming that you are also preaching to yourself, please tell me, oneinchrist, on a "typical" day, what exactly are YOU being obedient to, please?

Please give me some concrete examples of what you do that is obedient during a typical day? Thanks.

With love in Christ,
Eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Eden,
Peter was rebuked by Jesus when He asked for increased faith (after Jesus told Him that we shall forgive up to 70x7). It is not that we are not capable to obey the Lords command, it is that we are unwilling. Otherwise the Lord would have responded to Peter in this fashion, "Peter, here receive now the faith needed to forgive as I command you. With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi, oneinchrist. You said also:

“I am not one to get webbed up in thick theological discussions because I don’t think it’s all about who is right and who is wrong. We are to encourage each other in the faith. Let God be true and every man a liar. With love in Christ, Daniel”

Eden here:

RE the bolded phrase, I’m glad that Paul did not mind getting “webbed up in thick theological discussions”, aren’t you?

Paul said he had fed the Corinthian brethren with milk, and then implied that there was such a wonderful thing as meat.

But let’s not talk about that, let’s instead talk about “loving each other” and “encouraging each other”.

How do Christians encourage each other? By building them up in the truths of Christ, so their faith increases that it is all really going to happen in the future as Jesus and the Bible said it was.

Shall we just talk about love instead? Please know that ALL the devils behind all the religions, and even Lucifer himself, does not mind at all if we talk about “love” and even if we just “love each other” without these “thick theological discussions”.

Just don’t talk the Holy Spirit birth of Jesus by the virgin Mary and please do not mention the miracles which Jesus did and please, please do not mention that Jesus died on behalf of our sins and that Jesus rose again from the dead on the third day.

But, hey, you want to talk about “love” and “encouragement”? No problem!!!!

I thank God for allowing me, with Paul and Peter and James and John, to get “webbed in thick theological discussions” or in the “meat” dispensed by our own spirit, that I may rejoice in Him who loved me and saved me while I was yet a sinner. This is love and this is encouragement indeed.

With love in Christi,
Eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi, oneinchrist. You said:

Hi Eden,
…
“I pictured Jesus in front of me speaking out of a burning bush saying "Daniel {oneinchrist}, if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will my Father in Heaven forgive your trespasses.”

“Now, I have a choice. I can do as He says or I can question it

Eden here:

RE the bolded part, I don’t think it is a matter of questioning it (with “it” meaning, forgive men their trespasses} but it is more Am I able to forgive men their trespasses.

And also, usually we are able to forgive MOST men their trespasses but we find that we are having a hard time forgiving SOME people for what they did. For instance, my sister-in-law is a bornagain Christian, and she helps many people with good works. But she and her own sister have a lot of historical anger and jealousy between the two sisters, and that they find much harder to forgive than, say, members of her church with whom she does NOT have this historical anger and rage.

So what I see is that Christians should definitely try to forgive because that is the Lord’s commandment, but each Christian differs in who they are able to forgive. Forgiveness in a Christian is often NOT a 100 or zero proposition, but more like an 80-20 proposition. Only Jesus could and can forgive 100 percent of the time.

Ooneinchrist, you continued:

“I suppose I could hesitate and ask the Lord..."Lord, am I still saved even if I don’t forgive everyone? I’m not too sure that would be a good idea to question the Lord though. Doesn’t having faith in the Lord mean that we don’t question what He tells us to do?”

Eden here:

I think the Lord knows that all humans have come up through the Adam and Eve line and that therefore our sinful body is NOT capable of matching what Jesus’s Holy Spirit body from Mary could do and accomplish. I have 100% faith that what the Lord is asking and proposing is 100% righteous, but how to accomplish it, brings me back to Paul in Romans.

Instead of questioning whether the Lord’s commandments need to be followed, instead I acknowledge that as an Adam sinner with an Adam body, I will always fall short of the glory of God until the redemption of the body comes.

Does that mean I have liberty to sin? God forbid. Before I was saved, I was a fairly nice person. Now that I am saved by having been put into Christ, I have access also to the Holy Spirit. If my life was going fairly well BEFORE I was saved, is it not EASY to have confidence and faith that my life will go EVEN BETTER now that I have access again to the Holy Spirit.

oneinchrist, when you speak of this commandment of obedience, what kind of obedience do you have in mind exactly? Is it reading the Word? Or is it trying not to curse when someone cuts you off on the freeway? Or is it listening only to Christian music?

I would think that it would be all three of those, but what do YOU have in mind, oneinchrist, when you talk about being obedient to the commandments of the Lord? What commandments do you have in mind exactly?

With love in Him,
Eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Eden,
I read through your post and I understand where you are coming from as far as showing a distinction between salvation and sanctification. I have tried to visualize the application that you have shared and this is what I come up with.
I pictured Jesus in front of me speaking out of a burning bush saying "Daniel, if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will my Father in Heaven forgive your trespasses. Now, I have a choice. I can do as He says or I can question it. I suppose I could hesitate and ask the Lord..."Lord, am I still saved even if I dont forgive everyone? Im not too sure that would be a good idea to question the Lord though. Doesnt having faith in the Lord mean that we dont question what He tells us to do. I was listening to a radio show this morning by John McCarthur and it was addressing the point that I have been trying to make all along here.....that being accepting the Lord Jesus on His terms. The gospel reveals His terms and I will be perfectly honest with you Eden....I do not believe that we can afford to question the Lords terms....our perceived understanding of salvation and sanctification aside. If I say that I believe in Jesus, should I not also trust His Words? After all, He is the Word. I still believe that the greatest indicator of a true believer is compassion. We are called to reveal the love of Christ by our words and our actions. Lets put on a heart for the lost who know not Christ, and pray for the Lord Jesus to help us witness. I am not one to get webbed up in thick theological discussions because I dont think its all about who is right and who is wrong. We are to encourage each other in the faith. Let God be true and every man a liar. With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi, oneinchrist. Let me say first that I appreciate your calm politeness in discussions. You said to Eden:

“Hi Eden,
LOL, you just posted the very verse that I thought of from your first response to my question. You must of sensed that is the verse that I would reference, and you were right on the button...Matthew 6:14-15.”

Eden here:

Yes, the Holy Spirit reminded me of a Biible verse or vice-versa the Bible verse reminded me that oneinchrist was thinking of that same verse too so that I was able to preempt you this time.

oneinchrist continued to say to Eden:

“Forgiveness is a necessity. The Holy Spirit (the HS) will convict us of unforgiveness, but (the HS) does not force us to carry it {unforgiveness} out. According to Jesus if we choose not to forgive, neither will we be forgiven. This is an example of just one of the conditions that Jesus requires of us.”

Eden here:

Jesus requires forgiveness of us, but for what? For salvation? Or does Jesus require forgiveness of us for sanctification?

This is the message I got in answer to that question tonight:

SALVATION was accomplished ONLY BY WHAT JESUS DID ON THE CROSS. For salvation we ONLY NEED TO BELIEVE in the work that Jesus did on the cross on our behalf for SALVATION.

BUT, once we HAVE salvation through what Jesus Alone did on the cross, THEN we are ENTITLED to receive the counsel of the HOLY SPIRIT again.

And the HOLY SPIRIT is the One who does the work of SANCTIFICATION in us now-saved sinners, but the Holy Spirit DOES NOT DO THE WORK OF SALVATION which JESUS ALONE DID on behalf of us sinners.

But once an Adamic person has believed in SALVATION BY JESUS, then the saved sinner has renewed ACCESS to the HOLY SPIRIT and now it is NOT JESUS, but the HOLY SPIRIT who begins to interact with the saved sinner for the purpose, NOT OF SALVATION, but of SANCTIFICATION.

Sanctifiation is the process of making the saved sinner look a little more like God than like Lucifer-Satan who has been the Adamic person’s counselor until this time.

But once a sinner is saved through the work that JESUS ALONE did, now it is the Holy Spirit’s turn to get to work, namely to make the saved sinner look a little bit more like Jesus.

Jesus ALONE performed the work of salvation, but the Holy Spirit ALONE, or actually in cooperation with the Lord Jesus who is seated in heaven at the right hand of the Father, the Holy Spirit alone now performs the work of sanctification in the SAVED SINNER. Jesus alone saves, and the Holy Spirit and Jesus from heaven alone sanctify:

John 14:28
You have heard how I said to you, I go away, but come again unto you. If you loved Me, you would rejoice, because I said, I go to the Father: for My Father is greater than I.

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

We Christians know that this Comforter is the Holy Spirit. Jesus then continued:

John 16:13
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He {the Holy Spirit} shall hear {from Jesus in heaven}, that shall He {the Holy Spirit} speak: and He (Jesus and the Holy Spirit} will show you things to come.

oneinchrist, Jesus alone gave us salvation, but Jesus already told us while Jesus was in Israel what Jesus would also be telling us THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT for SANCTIFICATION PURPOSES: things like, Be you perfect even as your heavenly Father who is heaven is perfect. If you do not forgive others their transgressions, neither will your heavenly Father forgive you YOUR transgressions (during sanctification). God is not mocked, whatsoever I sow that shall I also reap, even as an adopted Son of God.

AFTER salvation I have to behave and act more like a member of the Family of God than a family member of the family of Lucifer-Satan.

And, as a practical matter, what is this OBEDIENCE that you mention, oneinchrist? Is it not trying to be a nicer person than I was before I got saved? Is that not sanctification?

I testify that the Lord Jesus in heaven thru the Holy Spirit has REINED ME IN from what I used to be before I got saved.

But I also realize that my old Adam will NEVER LOOK ANYTHING LIKE THE GLORY THAT JESUS HAD when Jesus was in Israel, at least not until the redemption of my body comes, no, not until then:

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Ephesians 1:14
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

2 Peter 1:16
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.

1 John 1:1
That who was from the beginning, whom we have heard, whom we have seen with our own eyes, whom we have looked upon, and whom our hands have handled, the Word of life.

Only Jesus is born from Holy Spirit energy which did not come through the earth cycle, so no Adam and Eve who came up and was born into the tainted earth sin energy will EVER be able to COME CLOSE to what Jesus was when He was in Israel.

YOu may call it OBEDIENCE, but it is only a a lesson in santification, never in salvation, oneinchrist. It's all true, but not for salvation, only in sanctification.

This is also why the scripture can say:

1 Corinthians 3
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that which has been laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man builds upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or stubble;

13 Every man's work will be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 And if any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

He is still saved if he believes that Jesus Alone saves, but he receives NO REWARDS unless some of his works were...gold, silver, and precious stones.

With love in Christ,
Eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Eden,
lol, you just posted the very verse that I thought of from your first response to my question. You must of sensed that is the verse that I would reference, and you were right on the button...Matthew 6:14-15.
Forgiveness is a necessity. The Holy Spirit will convict us of unforgiveness, but it does not force us to carry it out. According to Jesus if we choose not to forgive, neither will we be forgiven. This is an example of just one of the conditions that Jesus requires of us. I think that we need to understand that there is a difference between the "works" that Paul spoke of which are rendered useless, and the works(our heart response to the Lord) that are required. Jesus told us that the narrow path is difficult.
The Holy Spirit doesnt just carry us on a cloud all the way to Heaven. It guides, leads, helps, teaches, but it leaves us with hard choices to make. Maybe this is one of the reasons that Jesus repeats over and over "He that endures to the end shall be saved". Notice He doesnt say "He that is saved will endure to the end". I dont believe that Jesus would say this if our responsibility in the faith was not an issue. Now I am confident that when James said that faith without works is dead that he was not speaking of the works of the flesh as was Paul. He was speaking of a so called faith that does not do the works that Jesus requires of a follower of His.....emphasizing our call to compassion. Faith without love is nothing....does the Holy Spirit make us love? no, but it will help us accomplish a perfect work if we pursue love and seek out Gods will. Eden, I really study your responses to see where you are coming from. You may have sensed that I believe that obedience is vital, and you would be correct. Do I say that we are saved by our obedience? no, I do not..... but I believe it highly unlikely that a person who is disobedient to the Lord will be saved. Disobedience(in the broad sense of rejecting the Words of Christ) does not reveal true faith....and we are saved through faith...and faith is both the gift of God and the responsibility of man. If Gods word is not properly appropriated we cannot be saved. With love in Christ, Daniel.

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Matthew 6:15
But if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Is this a prerequisite for salvation or something dealing with our sanctification? I think it is dealing with our sanctification, our "what happens now that I am saved" kind of thing.

If I don't forgive men their trespasses, neither will My heavenly Father forgive me MY trespasses.

Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.

But these things belong to sanctification, NOT to salvatio which is how to be put by God from the cross into Christ isntead.

Then the Holy Spirit and the saved escaped sinner together try to "clean themselves up a bit". And I myself can testify that the Holy Spirit has "reined me in more" since I was saved.

Thanks be to God for that.

with love in Him,
Eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi oneinchrist. You said:

Hi Eden,
I like that you are very clear on the message that you trust in...but I just have one question. If I believe just as you say in the death and resurrection, but I choose not to forgive others for whatever reasons, should I still have reason to believe I remain forgiven?

Eden here:

Regarding the bold part, I think the Bible states that God crucified the old man on the cross with Christ, and to me this old man represents EVERYTHING that belonged to Adam and Eve.

God had DONE AWAY with the first or old Adam by crucifying the entire old man Adam to the cross with Christ:

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

BUT God has also offered a WAY OF ESCAPE from this sentence of death on the cross of Christ, if the old man or old Adam can believe during his turn on earth in the new or second Adam, who is Jesus:

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

If an old Adam can believe that Jesus was (and still is) the Son of God, that Jesus was Holy Spirit-born by a virgin, that Jesus did miracles during his life, that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and that Jesus rose again from the dead on the third day, if anyone can believe that then this old Adam is GIVEN THE WAY OF ESCAPE.

And that way of escape is that God TRANSFERS that old Adam person that God had crucified on the cross with Christ by instead putting him INTO CHRIST instead of on the cross:

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

And because THIS old Adam believer is PUT IN CHRIST by God, then this old Adam believer also rises with Christ at Christ’s resurrection, while the other old Adams remain crucified ON THE CROSS.

oneinchrist, sorry for the length, but the point of the above is that anyone who BELIEVES that Jesus is all of those things that I have said above, that old Adam will BE MOVED FROM THE CROSS and PUT IN CHRIST on the cross, and so SHALL that old Adam be SAVED because THAT IS the way of escape.

So, what then if anyone who is saved is having trouble FORGIVING some people? That’s is all old Adam, but it all depends on whether this particular old Adam is crucified on the cross still or is PUT IN CHRIST by God.

As for the sin of unforgiveness, with the help of the Holy Spirit, the ESCAPED old Adam may together get better at forgiving, but what exactly ESCAPED old Adams get better at depends a lot on their family history.

Even Paul saw that there was a law of sin in his members that he could not overcome:

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin that is in my members.

Romans 7:24
O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Having trouble forgiving someone? The old Adam is dead and was already crucified back then with Christ on the cross.

Since it is then only a matter of who will escape from the cross into Christ, BELIEVING ONLY IN JESUS is the key that opens the door to esape.

That escape is salvation. But how good or bad we are at forgiving others, is a work of sanctification, and has nothing to do with salvation.

Escaping from the cross into Christ is salvation, and that is relatively easy to accomplish by simply believing that Jesus was and is all that was said about Him in the Bible.

Then AFTER salvation comes sanctification, where the Holy Spirit which is now given to the saved person begins to work with the saved sinner to hopefully achieve some sense of sanctification together, but which parts of a saved sinner become more or less SANCTIFIED depends on one’s family history and on the individual's history.

with love and put in Christ,
Eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Eden,
Im like that you are very clear on the message that you trust in...but I just have one question. If I believe just as you say in the death and resurrection, but I choose not to forgive others for whatever reasons, should I still have reason to believe I remain forgiven?

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To me, there are 2 kinds of people on earth:

(1) those people who are still in their sins because they have NOT accepted that Jesus died for their sins on the cross and that Jesus rose from the dead; and

(2)those peopple who have accepted that Jesus died on the cross for them and that Jesus rose from the dead.

And just because someone is BORN INTO a Christian Catholic or into a Christian Protestant or into a Christian Coptic family DOES NOT MEAN that they are now Christians.

Each person must come individually to God and say, I accept that Jesus died on the cross for MY sins and I believe that Jesus rose again from the dead on the third day.

When a person believes THAT, then that person is saved, provided that this person continues to believe it until he or she dies.

But just because someone is BORN INTO a Christian Catholic or Christian Protestant or Christian Coptic (or whatever kind one is), does NOT make one a Christian.

Nevertheless, Paul continues to assert that the CARNAL Corinthian Christians ARE CHRISTIANS; Paul uses the word "brethren" which I'm sure all on this board would agree means Biblically a Christian brother. NOWHERE does Paul EVER assert that the Corinthians are NOT part of the church of God. In fact, within the first 3 sentences, Paul addresses the carnal Corinthians as "greetings to the church of God". Listen to all this blessed stuff that Paul says:

1 Corinthians 1
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

3 GRACE be to you and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ.

Carnal people have only been drinking/eating spiritual milk, but Paul seems to make it clear that even SPIRITUAL milk SAVES and CONTINUES TO SAVE as long as one continues to believe EVEN IN JUST SPIRITUAL milk!

Spiritual meat can only be experienced in a Christian's OWN spirit, but spiritual milk is ENOUGH to SAVE people even until they die. Paul NEVER said that the Corinthians WERE NOT SAVED, eventhough the Corinthians had ONLY been drinking/eating spiritual milk:

1 Corinthians 3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for until now were you not able to bear it, and even now are you not able.

...Are you now able... to be fed with spiritual meat which can ONLY come from your OWN spirit? Milk is BEING FED by OTHER Christians who have gotten MEAT from their OWN spirit, which the meat Christians then CONVERTED into spiritual milk to feed OTHERS with, which is also called PREACHING. Preaching is ALWAYS spiritual MILK; preaching is NEVER meat.

But spiritual MILK or PREACHING is ENOUGH to get saved by and to stay saved by unto death, according to Paul. Paul NEVER says the carnal, only-milk-fed Corinthians are NOT Christians in the Bible. Indeed, Paul addresses the carnal, milk-fed Corinthians this way right off the bat:

1 Corinthians 1
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth ...

4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ.

Who then will say that the carnal Corinthians were NOT Christians? If anyone should know whether they were still Christians, who BETTER than Paul to make the decision for us, may I ask?

with love in Christ,
Eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
IAAFOTL
Advanced Member
Member # 6414

Icon 16 posted      Profile for IAAFOTL   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
When we read the Word, we need to counsel ALL that it says, not just the parts that tickle our ears. God is a JUST God and He is a BALANCED God. He shows us what we will receive IF we follow Him and embrace His ways, and He also shows us what we will receive IF we say we do, but actually don't.

We can usually identify these conditions in His Word as they are usually noticeable by the word IF.

Take this Scripture for a good example:
Romans 8:13 (spoken to the brethren)
For if ye live after the flesh, you shall die:

but IF you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.


Consider, some other verses such as:

Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 10:26-31
Matthew 7:13,14
Matthew 22:1-14
John 15:1-5
Luke 6:46
Romans 8:13
James 1:22
Rev. 3:4

Just to name a few.......

And truly you cannot dismiss just one of the Scriptures that David quoted which was to BELIEVERS which was 1 John 2:3-6, which is perfectly aligned with what Jesus said Himself in Luke 6:46.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Well, David, it seems to me from 1 Corinthians 1-3 that Paul believed in "easy believism" as you call it.

Paul plainly said that most Corinthian believers were carnal who were only drinking spiritual milk, but yet Paul never hesitated to call them brethren, and Paul only uses that word "brethren" for Christians in the Bible.

So it appears that sinners who only drink milk were still considered Christians by Paul. He still called them "brethren" and never implied that because they were carnal they were now unsaved heathen.

I do think that it is possible that God is much more generous and loving toward sinners than His saved human beings are.

Romans 5:8
But God commends His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If someone wants to call that love "easy believism", then please go ahead.

crucified on the crosss with Christ and raised with new life from Christ, I am,
Eden



--------------------
Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
_ ____ _
My screen name stands for "I am a Friend of The Lord's"

Posts: 64 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
IAAFOTL
Advanced Member
Member # 6414

Icon 1 posted      Profile for IAAFOTL   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Exactly. [Cross]


quote:
Originally posted by David:
To try and convince people that they are saved without ever knowing Jesus Christ is one of the worst things people can do. It is sending people to HELL because they never came to know the Savior Jesus Christ. I know Satan loves it when people think they can go to heaven from their own works and not place their faith in Jesus Christ. To just say a pray or just say you believe the bible does not save you. Only knowing Jesus personally will save you.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)

Do you not think these people thought they were part of the brethren?

I sure believe they did, but Jesus did not. It does not matter what you think, or what you believe if it is wrong. Creating a God to be what you want is called "idolatry". We need to read and know the entire bible not just the parts that make us feel good.

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Colossians 1:27 (KJV)

Salvation doesn't come from what we know, but from Who we know, Jesus said: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 17:3 (KJV)

Was Simon the Sorcerer saved in Acts 8:13 by easy believism? we quote "then Simon himself believed also..." the answer to this question is "NO" Simon was not saved by only believing. We know this to be a fact from Apostle Peter's stinging rebuke in Acts 8:20-21. Listen to what he said,"... but Peter said unto him, thy money perish with thee, because thou has thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou has neither part nor lot in this matter, for thy heart is not right in the sight of God". He believed but was still unsaved.

You cannot afford to make a mistake about Salvation. Your soul is too valuable, the lake of fire is too final and eternity is too long to be wrong.
Satan's master plan is to make people believe they are saved when in reality they are still lost. His plan is sly, crafty and deceptive. His timing is just perfect. The name of his counterfeit is called EASY BELIEVISM.

Satan designed his plan to include parts of the Bible which would add reverence and credibility to his counterfeit and at the same time twist the truths and change the words to produce a subtle half-truth which is more dangerous than an outright lie. only the TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH, and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH will save a man or woman from sin.


.



--------------------
Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
_ ____ _
My screen name stands for "I am a Friend of The Lord's"

Posts: 64 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
IAAFOTL
Advanced Member
Member # 6414

Icon 1 posted      Profile for IAAFOTL   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Amen David. There is a BIG difference, in fact an eternal difference between saying, "I believe" but our hearts being far from Him, and our actions showing we are indeed liars. This is not directed at newborn babes in Christ btw. These truths of the Word MUST be taught so that we grow in obedience by the grace afforded to us, through His Word of Truth. To whom much is given, much is required. The more we learn, the more we are responsible for what we know. Choosing to avoid the Word of the Lord, so that we will remain ignorant is in itself insincere. We cannot remain babes, because if we are not growing and maturing, then surely we are backsliding and in danger of falling away being that we do not press onward with our minds and hearts on the things of God, but rather intent on the things of this world. It is a slippery slope and easy to tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. Some leading to the depths of hell. Saying "I do", is not an automatic ticket to heaven. It is the beginning of a relationship with Christ, not the end. What we do thereafter will prove to be sincere or just playing church.

quote:
Originally posted by David:
Sure sounds like you are promoting Easy Believism here to me.

Nothing has any power to alter a man save the incoming of the life of Jesus, and that is the only sign that he is born again. - Chambers, O

My bible states the following:

1 John 2:3-6 (NIV)
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2 Timothy 4:3 (KJV)

And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. ~ Luke 9:62

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

2 Chr 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

Galatians 6:8
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13 (KJV)

Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV)
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Psalm 2:11 (KJV)
Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. 1 Peter 1:17 (NIV)


If someone suggests that if you say a prayer you will be saved, then they will answer to God for that. There is no push button thing you can do for salvation. The bible says we MUST be born-again. That is a process and if you are born-again your life will change and you will put Jesus Christ first in your life. Not just know about Him or think you purchased a ticket to heaven and you have it somewhere in a drawer.

To even think that a few words that take less than a moment will secure our souls forever is pure deception. Please do not be deceived. You will not enter the Kingdom of God on a few words that you spoke one time in your life. Praying a prayer is not a quick simple fix. Jesus says to us that we must deny ourselves, forsake all, and take up our cross daily (Luke 9:23-26; 14:33). These are things that we will want do daily until the day we die. We are to walk and live by faith and endure until the very end (Matt. 10.22). If you are saved you will love and put Jesus first in your life. That is how you know if you are born-again. Your life changes it focus and it then become about knowing Jesus.

"Easy Believism" is the idea that having a mental belief in Jesus Christ is the same as obtaining salvation. In other words, this false doctrine teaches that people only need to believe correct doctrines about Jesus or salvation rather than actually trusting Jesus Christ Himself for salvation. The Bible refutes this heretical false teaching, noting that the "devils also believe and tremble". (James 2:19)

Easy-Believism is related to such terms as “Decisionism", "Easy Prayerism" and “Salvation by Works”. The heresy of Easy Believism is popularized today by such men as Rick Warren. Various "evangelists" often like to propagate this heresy, since it is easier to get people to believe some basic Bible facts than it is to get them to actually trust the real Jesus for their salvation. Such evangelists can then "count lots of numbers" of those sheep (i.e. goats) who have assented to certain mental beliefs. This helps such "hirelings" to "prop up" the "numbers" of people "saved" during their evangelistic meetings.

Many pastors also like to promote this heresy as well, since it helps them to avoid having to think about the need to actually get their people truly converted. With Easy-Believism, they only need to get their people to mentally assent to ("believe") a few Bible facts. Very often, pastors who promote this false doctrine are lost men themselves, which helps to explain why they would be willing to promote such a demonic soul-damming false doctrine.

Of course, it is both right and indeed quite easy to trust Jesus. Nevertheless, only having a mental belief in Jesus is not the same as actually trusting Jesus. When men and women "believe and tremble" but do not actually trust Jesus Christ Himself alone for their salvation, they remain lost in their sins. They remain Satan's "goats" instead of Christ's "sheep", on the road to Hell and not on the way to Heaven. Too many people have had such a mental belief in certain Bible facts, but have never actually trusted Jesus. Jesus is up in Heaven right now desiring that men and women should trust Him for their salvation.

The wide-spread teaching of this false doctrine of "Easy Believism" is a major cause for much of the "lukewarmness" we see in so many churches during this current Laodicean church age, since most church members in today's typical churches have only had a mental belief in Jesus and/or Bible doctrines. They are therefore still lost men and women on the road down to an eternity in Hell. Lost men and women do not love Jesus. Churches filled with such "goats" are therefore generally "lukewarm" and not "hot" for Jesus and the Bible.



--------------------
Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
_ ____ _
My screen name stands for "I am a Friend of The Lord's"

Posts: 64 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1

Icon 1 posted      Profile for KnowHim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To try and convince people that they are saved without ever knowing Jesus Christ is one of the worst things people can do. It is sending people to HELL because they never came to know the Savior Jesus Christ. I know Satan loves it when people think they can go to heaven from their own works and not place their faith in Jesus Christ. To just say a pray or just say you believe the bible does not save you. Only knowing Jesus personally will save you.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)

Do you not think these people thought they were part of the brethren?

I sure believe they did, but Jesus did not. It does not matter what you think, or what you believe if it is wrong. Creating a God to be what you want is called "idolatry". We need to read and know the entire bible not just the parts that make us feel good.

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Colossians 1:27 (KJV)

Salvation doesn't come from what we know, but from Who we know, Jesus said: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 17:3 (KJV)

Was Simon the Sorcerer saved in Acts 8:13 by easy believism? we quote "then Simon himself believed also..." the answer to this question is "NO" Simon was not saved by only believing. We know this to be a fact from Apostle Peter's stinging rebuke in Acts 8:20-21. Listen to what he said,"... but Peter said unto him, thy money perish with thee, because thou has thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou has neither part nor lot in this matter, for thy heart is not right in the sight of God". He believed but was still unsaved.

You cannot afford to make a mistake about Salvation. Your soul is too valuable, the lake of fire is too final and eternity is too long to be wrong.
Satan's master plan is to make people believe they are saved when in reality they are still lost. His plan is sly, crafty and deceptive. His timing is just perfect. The name of his counterfeit is called EASY BELIEVISM.

Satan designed his plan to include parts of the Bible which would add reverence and credibility to his counterfeit and at the same time twist the truths and change the words to produce a subtle half-truth which is more dangerous than an outright lie. only the TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH, and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH will save a man or woman from sin.


.

Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 1 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
1 Cor. 5:13: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

This verse proves that the man spoken of in…..

1 Cor. 1: It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

This man is self deceived, he has never been born again.

We live in a day when the Church is unrecognizable to the Church born on the day of Pentecost!

Leaven has permeated into the whole of the Church.

Grace in the Church’s of America has become a license to sin.

Forget Yeshua’s words to the adulteress go and sin no more.

True salvation is “Grace through Faith”.

Not “Grace” alone

Not “Faith” alone

But Grace through Faith….

Grace, the desire, power, and ability of Holy Sovereign Creator Yahweh through faith on the part of any individual that acts by human responsibility upon the changed nature within on the seed of Yahweh.

Having the greatest desire to win, being in possession of the most powerful race car in the world, and having the greatest driving skills will not win the race, if you do not crank the engine and go.

If love for Yeshua is not your motivation, you are probable not Saved.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Caretaker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
1 Cor. 5:

1: It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2: And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3: For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4: In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5: To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6: Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7: Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9: I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12: For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator



This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Christian Visual Media | Privacy Statement



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0