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Author
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Topic: Did You Know? That,
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi,
Ive been reading all these posts on tithes and offerings and it made me think of something recently that I have just witnessed in the church I am currently attending. There are a few individuals who had planned on a missionary trip to Africa. I recently overheard that the church was short funds on their trip. I did not say anything, but I questioned the need for coffee and donuts every church service when we cant send these men out to share the gospel. I guess that I dont believe that the apostles would have done anything at the expense of getting the Word out. I am convinced that we are rarely operating as the apostles did. Another thing I highly doubt is that the apostles would have ever used the money to build big churches. Now we have all these big churches all over that are dependent on the "tithe message" to pay its bills. Im afraid we are losing our priorities and possibly misusing the Word of God in the process. I go to church as a family, but I certainly dont agree with everything that goes on inside....but who am I? Im not involved in the decision making. With love in Christ, Daniel.
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Brotherbrown
unregistered
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posted
becausehelives
All the temple funds (tithes and require offerings) all together I read somewhere totaled about 37%.
When I added them all up I came up with 32%. The government is suppose to just take 10%. But our government is takeing 32%now.
Sort of makes you wonder who is really robbing the church.
But what about the 12% that we are to directly give to the poor?
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
quote:
Eden said .....The gifts or anointings are fine, but what a man or woman needs FIRST is for the spirit to be separated from the soul. Most Christians don’t even know where their spirit is or that they even have a spirit.
The true gifts and anointings are only for the truly Spirit filled, most of what is seen in today’s SO CALLED CHURCHES IS SOUL OPERATION OF FALESE GIFTS AND ANOINTINGS.
quote:
I said at the first of my post….The letter has always killed, and the Spirit always brings life.
Eden what you said I agree with but you are saying it to the wrong person.
The tithe as taught by 98% of the so called church today is a false teaching, there is no Spirit leading to it.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Thunderz7
Advanced Member
Member # 31
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posted
Eden,
on spirit, soul and body ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Hi, becauseHElives. You said:
“ministry is simple service to God---gifts---which God has put in every one. But very important gifts which are meant to build His kingdom and spread His Gospel (praying for the sick, witnessing salvation, praying for deliverance and feeding the poor--in Jesus' name). “
“these ministry gifts are for anyone to have--"annointings" that anyone can have and use and operate in--and they are NOT rulership titles--they re NOT exclusive to only the "ordained and educated" among us….”
Eden here:
The gifts or anointings are fine, but what a man or woman needs FIRST is for the spirit to be separated from the soul. Most Christians don’t even know where their spirit is or that they even have a spirit.
Only man’s spirit can communicate with God who is a Spirit and with the Holy Spirit. So UNTIL the spirit is separated from the soul by the Lord Jesus on the altar, we can talk all want about “gifts” and “anointings” from God, but first man’s spirit needs to become dominant again in a bornagain Christian, otherwise, if the soul is still ruling, there "won't be any gifts and anointings".
The Lord says that the dominance sequence is this: spirit, soul and body. God would quicken man’s spirit with zoe life and then the spirit tells the soul what the spirit has heard from God’s Spirit, and the soul causes the body to execute the instructions from the Spirit to the spirit.
The spirit of man equates to the master of the house.
The soul of man equates to the steward of the house.
And the body of man equates to the servants of the house.
The soul or steward fulfills the instructions of the master-spirit and the steward-soul tells the servants-body what to do.
In those days before Adam and Eve sinned, the light of God flooded out of man’s spirit into man’s soul and into man’s body, so that Adam and Eve were clothed with shekinah glory.
Adam and Eve instead activated their soul to rule over the body and the soul ignored man’s spirit which became IDLE and no longer lit up by God’s zoe life.
After Jesus in our place so we don’t have to die, reading the Word of God and hearing the Word of God through the Holy Spirit teaches us where that we HAVE a spirit and that we at the soul need to relinquish body rule and hand rule back over to man’s spirit because the spirit hears from God and God is much smarter and wiser than soul man and the body.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
So, the point is, “gifts” and “anointings” don’t come until we have found our spirit and are learning what the voice of the spirit is; then they will hear marvelous things.
Love, Eden
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
All the temple funds (tithes and require offerings) all together I read somewhere totaled about 37%.
It took the system working in together to accomplish what we know of as the one time a year atonement offering for sin
(but offerings of blood and grain were offered up everyday 365+ days a week by the Priest )
The method Yahweh had set up to point the way to the day Yeshua would be the final blood offering or grain offering was perverted to the place Yeshua said you turned my Father House of Prayer and Mercy and Grace into a den of thieves and robbers, void of the mercy of Yahweh.
The letter has always killed, and the Spirit always brings life.
Isn’t it great the Church described in Acts was not bound to this Tithe principle that is taught in 98% of the so-called church?
The example of the new covenant church was to give to the needs of "every man". This makes perfect sense, considering their non-authoritarian structure, and the fact that ministry was a function that anyone could do at any time. Jesus ruled the church--not money!
Giving to "Every man"--What a Concept!!
In the new covenant church, giving was Spirit-lead directly to the needs of "every man"
I'll say it again.
In the church in the Bible, the giving of money or supplies of any kind was directly lead by God (not rules of "tithe"!)--and given directly to the needs of "every man".
The Bible says this is so---oh--it may be almost completely ignored by most "major" church organizations---but whether anyone likes it or not--whether it fits anyone's experience--it's still in the Bible........
Ac 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Ac 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Ac 11:29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
(read these verses in context and see if this is not the case)
Now, there are many many excuses not to do things this way.....
"they were beginning the church and God needed "special obedience"--We are the already established church."
Well, this sounds okay--but just one question--what are the rules of giving in the "established church"?
Answer: give to the priesthood of the church (the old covenant government of the church)--to the church leaders---and they will decide how to distribute things. (which often means they will give a big portion of the money to build the church building---and usually very little to the direct needs of the Gospel!) Look at Acts 4:35---they gave the money to the apostles--but all of it was distributed to the needs of "every man".
Our problem is that the church has changed so much since the times of the Bible, that we do not really recognize what they were doing (even though the rules are all in the Bible!)
Here is the giving plan of the new covenant church.....
1. As we said--give to every man. but why? doesn';t the Bible say that "ministers" have the right to receive money? Yes, this is true--but in he bible, every man had the right to operate in ministry--to serve God....
Mr 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Pe 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1Co 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
1 ¶ I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 ¶ With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ........11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (Ephesians 4: 1-7, 11)
Yes, the gift of operating in "5-fold" ministry is a gift "given unto every one of us".
Ministry in the Bible was not a title of rulership or authority over other believers (as is the strong tradition of the Western church. "ministry" is service--and specifically NOT authority over other believers--and a gift for "every man"..
42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. (Mark 10: 42-44)
the new testament church operated by apostleship---they met in small groups often (every day if possible). they prayed together, received a word from God--and acted upon it. (giving to the needs that God had, as He requested service to His Gospel)
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship.... (Romans 1:5)
and that's why the Bible says that apostles are the first priority in the church...
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers...... (Acts 12: 28)
Now notice--1st apostles---second "prophets".
Who has the right to prophecy within the church?
Once again---"every man"
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Co 14:26 ¶ How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
(notice: 1Corinthians 14:26 gives the right to prophecy and teach to "every one of you"--albeit, one by one, and 2 or 3 at any given meeting---BUT---not a ruling ministry of teaching which tradition hands us)
So--here is the concept we seem to have so much trouble with:
ministry is simple service to God---gifts---which God has put in every one. But very important gifts which are meant to build His kingdom and spread His Gospel (praying for the sick, witnessing salvation, praying for deliverance and feeding the poor--in Jesus' name). these ministry gifts are for anyone to have--"annointings" that anyone can have and use and operate in--and they are NOT rulership titles--they re NOT exclusive to only the "ordained and educated" among us--in fact the Bible tells us that some of the most valuable gifts are to be found in the least of us (romans 12--ephesians 4--1Corinthains 12-14)
the giving in the church was to "every man"--because "every man" had a ministry to fulfill.
did you know that we will be judged by this service to God?
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
So, again we repeat---
In the new covenant church, giving was Spirit-lead directly to the needs of "every man"
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Wouldn't it be cheerful to give, as God leads you, to the ministry of every one within the church?
What a concept!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Brotherbrown
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by Brotherbrown:
How come everyone misses the point that if we keep the part about tithes from the old testament we also must keep the part about oweing 12% to the poor.
Why stop there? Every Jew was required by the Levitical law to pay three tithes of his property (1) one tithe for the Levites; (2) one for the use of the temple and the great feasts; and (3) one for the poor of the land.
A free-will offering is different.
I dont understand. Are all them tithes 10%?
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brotherbrown:
How come everyone misses the point that if we keep the part about tithes from the old testament we also must keep the part about oweing 12% to the poor.
Why stop there? Every Jew was required by the Levitical law to pay three tithes of his property (1) one tithe for the Levites; (2) one for the use of the temple and the great feasts; and (3) one for the poor of the land.
A free-will offering is different.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Brotherbrown
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How come everyone misses the point that if we keep the part about tithes from the old testament we also must keep the part about oweing 12% to the poor.
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Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
If you make the tithe duty or a requirement, you make Yeshua sacrifice none effect!
That doesn't mean that it is not necessary. We have to line up our hearts with the biblical motives set out in the scriptures.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006
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Brotherbrown
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posted
LAWS ON TAXES AND TITHES AND THE POOR
Rom 2:17-19 NEW TESTAMENT
17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,
18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,
19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
Rom 2:20-23
20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law.
21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?
Matt 17:24-26
24 When they had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, "Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?"
25 He said, "Yes." And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?"
26 Peter said to Him, "From strangers." Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free.
(NKJ)
1 Sam 8:4-22 OLD TESTAMENT TAXES (10%)
4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah,
5 and said to him, "Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations."
6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." So Samuel prayed to the LORD.
7 And the LORD said to Samuel, "Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
8 "According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day-- with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods-- so they are doing to you also.
9 "Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them."
10 So Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who asked him for a king.
11 And he said, "This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots.
12 "He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots.
13 "He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers.
14 "And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants.
15 "He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants.
16 "And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work.
17 "He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants.
18 "And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the LORD will not hear you in that day."
19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, "No, but we will have a king over us,
20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles."
21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he repeated them in the hearing of the LORD.
22 So the LORD said to Samuel, "Heed their voice, and make them a king." And Samuel said to the men of Israel, "Every man go to his city."
Gen 28:22 TITHES (10%)
22 "And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God's house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You."
Num 18:21
21 "Behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tithes in Israel as an inheritance in return for the work which they perform, the work of the tabernacle of meeting.
Exod 22:25 POOR (12%)
25 "If you lend money to any of My people who are poor among you, you shall not be like a moneylender to him; you shall not charge him interest.
Exod 23:10-11
10 "Six years you shall sow your land and gather in its produce,
11 "but the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, that the poor of your people may eat; and what they leave, the beasts of the field may eat. In like manner you shall do with your vineyard and your olive grove.
Lev 19:9-10
9 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest.
10 'And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger: I am the LORD your God.
1 Cor 15:24-26
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
(NKJ)
xx The old testament tithes were what they owed to God in the church. But what they fell to speak of is what else God says they owe. They owe 10% of their income for taxes, and they also owe 12% of their income strait to the poor around them. According to the old testament law of what you owed to God was 32% of your income, 10% to the church and 10% to the government, and 12% to the poor. Thank God we are not under the old testament.
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
I can give faithfully and it not be of true faith, and that which is not of Faith is sin!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
If you make the tithe duty or a requirement, you make Yeshua sacrifice none effect!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Good NewsforAll
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
I did not mention "Redemption Sin"
I made a blanket statement about “Sin offerings in the Old Testament”….
You quoted Hebrews 10:18 which uses the word remission - same thing.
quote:
"Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." (Hebrews 10:18, KJV).
Ephesians 1:7In Him we have redemption (deliverance and salvation) through His blood, the remission (forgiveness) of our offenses (shortcomings and trespasses), in accordance with the riches and the generosity of His gracious favor
The premise of my comments are based on the OP, which says, "Did know? That, according to the bible, offering Tithes to God is a sin?" This is totally biblically unsound. As I say, it doesn't mention specifically 10% in the NT because, through Jesus, we are free from legalism, but many scriptures certainly lay out the importance of giving.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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becauseHElives
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posted
Yahweh wants all are nothing, the true believer sees him/herself bought with the precious Blood of Yeshua, and all they have possession of time, money, property all belong to Yahweh.
People like guide lines to follow, written rules to follow, that relieves them of following the Spirit.
But only those that are lead by the Spirit are the children of Yahweh.
I did not mention "Redemption Sin"
I made a blanket statement about “Sin offerings in the Old Testament”….
The Burnt Offering. Looking at the burnt offering we see in Leviticus 1:3-10 that the victim could be from either the herd or the flock. But it must be without blemish. God severely condemned the offering of any sacrifice that had a blemish and would not accept it. The unblemished animal was presented at the door of the tent of meeting. It was a type of the pure, spotless life of the Lamb of God. God warned Israel not to bring her offerings to any place other than where He would put His name. See Deut. 12:5-24.
After presenting his animal the worshipper was required to place his hands upon it. The offering would not be accepted if the worshipper failed to do this. See Leviticus 1:3.
In Leviticus 24:14 we see that an offender by having witnesses lay their hands upon him, was officially appointed to death. Thus the laying on of hands meant a designation or appointment to death. The ceremony of laying on of hands also meant a transference of guilt to the one condemned. We speak with respect to the offerings. In the case of Moses' laying hands on Joshua, a transfer of endowment of authority was signified. In the burnt offering, an atonement acceptable to God was secured for the worshipper. During this ceremony of laying on of hands, the worshipper himself slew the animal. The officiating priest then performed the prescribed service. He caught the blood and sprinkled it round about the altar of the burnt offering. He then cut the animal into various parts, washed the legs and the inward parts, then burned the whole animal upon the altar. By this means and no other, could the worshipper be made acceptable and have atonement made for him during the dispensation of law from Moses to Christ.
The Meal Offering. Leviticus 2 describes the meal offering. This was made of fine flour mixed with oil and frankincense. While the idea of atonement by blood is absent in it, a holy offering made by fire became a sweet savor unto the Lord.
The Peace Offering. The peace offerings are described in Leviticus 3. The rule for them was exactly as that related to the burnt offering with one exception. At the conclusion of the service the worshippers sat down and partook of a certain portion of the offering and ate their food before the Lord. The peace offerings indicated fellowship and communion with God. This fellowship is only possible after the worshippers have been accepted by virtue of the sacrificial animal having already made atonement for them.
The Sin Offering. The sin offering is described in Leviticus 4:1-5:13. The burnt offering was offered for atonement. The peace offerings were possible only because of that atonement. The sin and trespass offerings were presented to God to make atonement for certain specific wrongs or acts which were the result of man's sinful condition. When one became aware of his guilt he had to present a sin offering. The sins which men were guilty of but were committed in ignorance were taken care of by the annual offering on the Day of Atonement. What about acts of murder, blasphemy and adultery? The murderer had to be put to death, see Numbers 35:31. The blasphemer had to be stoned, see Leviticus 24:14. In the case of adultery, both persons had to be put to death, see Leviticus 20:10-16.
The Trespass Offering. The last of the five offerings is called the trespass offering. This is similar to the sin offering except the basic meaning of this offering implies an invasion of the rights of others, especially property rights. With this thought in mind let us remember that certain rights and privileges belong to God alone. If men transfer their allegiance, or give off their substance to false gods, they invade the rights of the one true God. The same is true with respect to human rights. Any invasion of the rights of another - in the matter of property - must be paid back as far as possible. It is also stated that in dealing falsely with neighbors, restitution and satisfactory settlements were required. In order that the offerings might be acceptable to God the same requirements pertaining to the burnt offering, the peace offering and the sin offering prevailed with respect to the trespass offering. In dealing falsely with neighbors, men sinned against God. Full restitution had to made -- with an additional fifth part of the thing in question, or its equivalent, in order to accomplish full satisfaction. This restitution had to be made in order that the trespass offering might be acceptable before God.
In Old Testament times their was a definite understanding of the need for atonement. It produced both an awareness of the guilt in a person's conscience and also an awareness of the effects of the sin in an individual's relationship to God and other people. I wonder how acute was the sense of acceptable worship and its practices and benefits, and how aware of the difference when sin was present and the need arose to get right with God came up time and again. All these things in motion around the Jewish people were surely powerful witnesses to them of the need for atonement for the sin problem that plagued them. I tend to think also that the hope of a redeemer, who would once and for all set straight, all that was wrong was a bright light of hope that permeated this people. Next week we will study the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, from both the Old and New Testament, and begin to steer toward the Atonement made by Jesus of Nazareth. May you be blessed in hearing God's word and in the faith that grows there and is pleasing to God. May you grow in grace - In Jesus' name - Amen.
http://www.cfdevotionals.org/devpg98/de980221.htm
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Notice what these verses (often quoted to build the church building fund and demand tithing!) are truly saying. Giving certainly is necessary in God's kingdom and in His church--of this there is no doubt. Our giving and our prosperity are tied together hand in hand--and of course this means that we ought to give in order to receive--and will in fact receive according to our own sowing. However--look carefully at what is being said--what is the correct way to give related here--does the Bible say--
"According to the law of the tithe, so let him give;...."?????
NO of course not. There is no new covenant tithe. The giving, like everything else, was lead of the Holy Spirit--the Spirit within a person was to decide where and what and how to give--
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give;"
The law of the tithe was made obsolete by the blood sacrifice of Christ at the cross. The tithe of the old covenant was a necessity--it was needed--it had a specific purpose--it was the offering for sin. But Christ made the one time offering for all sin for all people--forever-- amen. Therefore there was no more need for an offering...
"Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." (Hebrews 10:18, KJV).
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
You say it is important to give, yet you say that we are free from the old covenant. Maybe we are free from the legality of 10%, but still we must give if we want blessings in return.
Sin offerings and gifts are mentioned well over 100 times in the Bible, and they are always in the context of shedding of blood and burnt offerings.
Giving, which in to-day's world would be gifts to the poor, our churches, etc., are referred to as gifts to the Lord, not as sin offerings.
Exodus 35:5 Take a sacred offering for the Lord. Let those with generous hearts present the following gifts to the Lord: gold, silver, and bronze;
Leviticus 2:3 The rest of the grain offering will then be given to Aaron and his sons. This offering will be considered a most holy part of the special gifts presented to the Lord.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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becauseHElives
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2 Corinthians 9--all about giving in the NT
1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:
2 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many.
3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.
5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;
14 And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you.
15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
(2 Corinthians 9:1-15, KJV).
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This chapter of the Bible is directed toward a new covenant church--and commending them for their giving. It is important to note that there is NO TITHE. The giving in the new covenant church was 100% Spirit-lead. It was the leading of the heart of everyone that was supporting all the church. Another important point to understand is that the church consisted of people--operating on a common level (see Acts chapter 2 and 4)--ministry was NOT authority over others--rather the definition of ministry was the simple gifts of service which were being done according to the purposes of Christ--spreading the Gospel--praying for the sick--bringing deliverance to those in need--feeding the poor (specifically the poor within the church) and releasing one another "apostolically" to freely serve God.
6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Notice what these verses (often quoted to build the church building fund and demand tithing!) are truly saying. Giving certainly is necessary in God's kingdom and in His church--of this there is no doubt. Our giving and our prosperity are tied together hand in hand--and of course this means that we ought to give in order to receive--and will in fact receive according to our own sowing. However--look carefully at what is being said--what is the correct way to give related here--does the Bible say--
"According to the law of the tithe, so let him give;...."?????
NO of course not. There is no new covenant tithe. The giving, like everything else, was lead of the Holy Spirit--the Spirit within a person was to decide where and what and how to give--
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give;"
The law of the tithe was made obsolete by the blood sacrifice of Christ at the cross. The tithe of the old covenant was a necessity--it was needed--it had a specific purpose--it was the offering for sin. But Christ made the one time offering for all sin for all people--forever-- amen. Therefore there was no more need for an offering...
"Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." (Hebrews 10:18, KJV).
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Notice that in the new covenant there is no more necessity of giving as there was in the old covenant. There was no more specific sin-forgiving offering needed--yet of course, giving was important--and still is for Christians today.
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But the questions are--how should we give?--and to whom should we give?
The tithe of the old covenant was to the Levites (a priesthood which is specifically done away with in the new covenant)--who were the delegated designated "authority" which had the exclusive right to do ministry within the temple in Israel. The new covenant makes specific changes in all these points. There is no more Levites--authority is not to be exercised one over another amongst ourselves (see Luke 22:25-29)--all believers are now made the temple of the Holy Spirit (therefore no more need to build and operate a physical temple to house God--God dwells in the heart of every believer--the "house of God" in the new covenant was the home of every Christian--and wherever 2 or 3 gathered together in Christ's name).
There was no tithe since there was no longer the need for sin offering--no more levitcal priesthood to support (with all it's continual and necesary rites and offerings)--and no more physical temple to be built.
Tradition tells us that we need to operate and support something that is similar to the old covenant temple--and a "priesthood"--an "official" minister of that temple as well as operate that temple on a sabbath day. These traditions--if we will study history--come to us from the decisions of Roman emperors, dark ages catholic popes and protestant kings---all rulers who exercised absolute authority over the Christian people of their day and age. Hundreds of years of these traditions have defined the "established" church and set up incredibly powerful tradition--which makes us ignorant of the Bible in these areas. Powerful spiritual strongholds are firmly in place in these areas--so much so that no one dares question the "pastor's authority" or the fixed chuch "format" which we all seem to gravitate toward--or the "holy day of obligation" which we all celebrate every Sunday. The plain fact is, in all these areas, we are very disobedient to the new covenant commands and the example set by Christ Himself and the church of the Bible. The fact is, that these things stand in the way of ministry operating freely--as a gift which every one of us has and needs to use in order for the fullness of God to come forth into the world. These traditions hinder the communications that the Holy Spirit is meant to give us--and therefore hinder God from doing all that He would like. They limit Christ from actually being the Head of the church. And Spirit-lead giving takes a back seat to a fully-enforced law of tithing.
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So, how should we give? Are we to be directed by the old covenant law of the tithe? All the purposes of the tithe were destroyed by Christ's sacrifice at Calvary. The new covenant says that the purposes of giving are now to be lead of the Spirit.
To whom was the giving directed? Was it directed to the leadership of the church? No. The giving in the new covenant church of the Bible was to the needs of all the saints. It was to "every man as he had need"........
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
(Acts 2:44-45, KJV).
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
(Acts 4:34-35, KJV).
The giving and collecting of money was "for the saints"--for the ministry which every man was accomplishing for the Lord--it was to see that none had any lack in any part of the body of Christ--so that all could serve God directly and to full effect.
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1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
(1 Corinthians 16:1, KJV).
13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
(Romans 12:13, KJV).
26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
(Romans 15:26, KJV).
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
(Galatians 2:9-10, KJV).
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The collecting of money was by the leading of the Spirit--to the poor within the church--this is what will make us a cheerful giver--(you ought to try it sometime--it is very true!). What will make us begrudging givers is "giving of necessity"--being told that it is a necessity for us to pay a tithe to the leadership! I'm not saying that by experience---the Bible says it!!
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
Giving cheerfully to the ministry of all within your church will thus allow all to serve God fully--so that all will be able to "abound to every good work". Every good work that the Lord would like your church to accomplish will then be done--since no one will have lack for their ministry activity. It is important to note that the bible does not say here that the leadership has all the ministry--nor has the right therefore to collect all the money. All the church has the right to have it's needs met by one another--the giving is to the poor--to those who have lack--so that they will have sufficiency to accomplish any good work.
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Now, to establish this new covenant way of giving to the poor--Paul quotes from the psalms--
9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
This is psalm 112:9.......
9 He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor; his righteousness endureth for ever; his horn shall be exalted with honour.
(Psalms 112:9, KJV).
Like it or not, this is the old covenant verse which establishes the new covenant way of giving. Notice that it is giving to the poor. It is definetly NOT the tithe! Paul, as he was commending the giving of this church, could have quoted a verse about tithing from the old covenant--right??!! He could have quoted something like this..
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
(Malachi 3:10, KJV).
Isn't this the verse which is often quoted in our churches today (perhaps linked with the half verse about the "cheerful giver") to lead us to believe that God requires a tithe--that we will not be fully blessed unless we tithe? Well, then why doesn't Paul preach it this way?? Instead, he quotes from the old testament a verse about how it is Gods will to give to the poor! Again, it is plain fact that the new covenant church as not operating from a tithe--they were giving by the leading of the Spirit--to the poor--God's higher will--a much higher will of God than the old covenant tithe--a tithe that ended it's purpose when Christ shed His blood on the cross!
12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
Here is Paul's explanation--he is saying here that this ministry of giving has 2 effects--it supplies the "want of the saints"--and meets God's high will and He certainly will reward the sower of this type of giving to the poor and the needs of our fellow Christians.
(Note:--Read these verses from the catholic standpoint. Hundreds of years ago, saint worship entered into the catholic church--in fact the practice goes back to the times of the Roman empire occupation of the church. Catholic folks have always had the notion that only certain specific chosen people are "the saints". From the catholic standpoint, only a "saint" had the right to collect money from the people in the church. The authority of the catholic church controlled and still does control exactly who is a "saint"--the obvious reason being that they are the people who could rightfully receive money. If you control the saints--you control the money--just another ancient Roman corruption of the church!)
13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;
14 And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you.
15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
Note in these last verses, the "subjection" is not unto man--not to a shepherd or pastor--not to a leader who collects a tithe (if it were--the bible would say so!)--but rather the subjection is unto "gospel of Christ". It does not say "you should be commended for paying your tithe and making yourself subject to the pastor"---right?? The people in this church were being commended for their giving to others who were spreading the gospel--but notice that they were not only giving to those who were spreading the Gospel--"for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;" Again, the giving was not the "one-dimensional" giving to leadership often taught within the church--rather it certainly was to the people who were spreading the gospel in other areas and to the poor within the church--to "all men"--to the "every man" who had lack--who had need--to "the saints".
Give to the poor--go ahead and try it--you will be blessed!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Brotherbrown
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Gordon:
brotherbrown;
I've got a interesting book out that list chapter and verse of everything that the above message proclaims! If you are interested in reading some verses from the bible that you want find in hardly any christian books (because it's not popular to share the entire truth), go to Promote something in this website and click on Paul Gordon, New Book.
The tithes I agree with, its the other stuff I have a problem with.
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Paul Gordon
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brotherbrown;
I've got a interesting book out that list chapter and verse of everything that the above message proclaims! If you are interested in reading some verses from the bible that you want find in hardly any christian books (because it's not popular to share the entire truth), go to Promote something in this website and click on Paul Gordon, New Book.
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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
THE CHURCH IN THE BIBLE DID NOT PAY TITHE. HEBREWS 10:18 SAYS IN THE NEW COVENANT THERE IS NO MORE SIN OFFERING--JESUS IS OUR SIN OFFERING. HE OFFERED HIS BODY--AS MEAT AND BREAD--THE TITHE.
Sin Offerings and tithing are two different things. Blood from goats and lambs was shed as atonement. Jesus is now our atonement. Tithing was a symbol of giving back to God what was rightfully his. The following scripture doesn't mention anything about blood sacrifices.
Lev. 27:30 “One tenth of the produce of the land, whether grain from the fields or fruit from the trees, BELONGS TO THE LORD AND MUST BE SET APART TO HIM AS HOLY. 31 If you want to buy back the Lord’s tenth of the grain or fruit, you must pay its value, plus 20 percent. 32 Count off every tenth animal from your herds and flocks and set them apart for the Lord as holy. 33 You may not pick and choose between good and bad animals, and you may not substitute one for another. But if you do exchange one animal for another, then both the original animal and its substitute will be considered holy and cannot be bought back.”
34 These are the commands that the Lord gave through Moses on Mount Sinai for the Israelites
Nothing is mentioned in Hebrews 10:18 about tithing. This means blood sacrifices for our redemption of sin.
Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Again,as in Lev. 27:30 -
Malachi 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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becauseHElives
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Study to show yourselves approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
STUDIES ON THE "TITHE"
"THE TITHE" SAYS THAT ONE PERSON HAS THE RULE OVER OTHERS WITHIN THE CHURCH. (Yeshua is the only Head of the Church)
THE TITHE LIMITS MINISTRY. (every believer is priest unto Yahweh)
THE TITHE UNDOES SPIRIT-LEAD GIVING AND GIVING TO THE POOR WITHIN THE CHURCH.(everything every believer owns is Yahweh's, the only debt we owe is a debt of love to Yeshua and those around us, we are to give freely not out of requirement or legalization of any kind, 2 Corinthians 9:7
(let every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.)
THE TITHE, BIBLICALLY, WAS THE AMOUNT OF THE SIN OFFERING THAT GOD COMMANDED ISRAEL TO MAKE IN THE OLD COVENANT. BIBLICALLY A TITHE WAS ONLY PAID TO THE HIGH PRIEST OF JERUSALEM, AND ALWAYS CONSISTED OF ANIMALS OR GRAIN (BREAD AND MEAT)--THE SIN OFFERING.
THE CHURCH IN THE BIBLE DID NOT PAY TITHE. HEBREWS 10:18 SAYS IN THE NEW COVENANT THERE IS NO MORE SIN OFFERING--JESUS IS OUR SIN OFFERING. HE OFFERED HIS BODY--AS MEAT AND BREAD--THE TITHE.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Brotherbrown
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Can someone make claims like that with absolutely no evidence and everyone believe it???
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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Gordon:
Did you know? That, according to the bible, offering Tithes to God is a sin?
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) What Bible are you reading??
Malachi 3:8
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Deuteronomy 12:6
And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:
Deuteronomy 12:11 Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD:
2 Chronicles 31:12
And brought in the offerings and the tithes and the dedicated things faithfully: over which Cononiah the Levite was ruler, and Shimei his brother was the next.
Nehemiah 10:37
And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.
Nehemiah 12:44
And at that time were some appointed over the chambers for the treasures, for the offerings, for the firstfruits, and for the tithes, to gather into them out of the fields of the cities the portions of the law for the priests and Levites: for Judah rejoiced for the priests and for the Levites that waited.
Nehemiah 13:5
And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded to be given to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Thunderz7
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PG 1-Did you know? That, according to the bible, offering Tithes to God is a sin?
T7 1-I've heard debate on this, from both sides,
both sides had scripture, both have good and bad points;
I'll be led by the Spirit and the WORD on this and work out my own salvation with fear and trembling.
PG 2-Did you know? That, according to the bible, exhalting your pastor and giving him holy titles is a sin?
T7 2-I don't know what extent you mean by exalting;
making a pastor a god is making him an idol, if you give to him as a god, you are in sin;
so basicly "I think" I agree with your statement.
PG 3-Did you know? That, according to the bible, the Apostle Paul's Faith alone saves doctrine, and James' (writer of book of James) Faith w/o works is dead doctrine are conflicting doctrines?
T7 3-You may see conflict,
I see no conflict;
on this one we are in complete disagreement.
PG 4-Did you know? That, according to the bible, that water baptism doesn't save?
T7 4-I know water baptism doesn't save,
most biblical references to baptism have nothing at all to do with water,
few want to study out baptism;
we agree wholeheartidly on this.
PG 5-Did you know? That, according to the bible, the Gospel brings (christians) good and bad news?
T7 5-You'll have to explain a little more here for me to comment.
PG 6-Did you know? That, according to the bible, Miracles (including Tongues) no longer occur?
T7 6-I totally disagree with you here.
PG 7-Did you know? That, there are many things being taught in our Christian Churches that are contrary to Bible Teachings?
T7 7-Yes many, many, many doctrines of our denominations and movements are contrary to Bible teaching;
agreed.
PG 8-Did you know? That, according to the bible, whether we do what the bible say do or not it doesn't change the truth of the bible?
T7 8-Nothing can change the truth of the Bible;
agree.
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Paul Gordon
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Did you know? That, according to the bible, offering Tithes to God is a sin?
Did you know? That, according to the bible, exhalting your pastor and giving him holy titles is a sin?
Did you know? That, according to the blble, the Apostle Paul's Faith alone saves doctrine, and James' (writer of book of James) Faith w/o works is dead doctrine are conflicting doctrines?
Did you know? That, according to the bible, that water baptism doesn't save?
Did you know? That, according to the bible, the Gospel brings (christians) good and bad news?
Did you know? That, according to the bible, Miracles (including Tongues) no longer occur?
Did you know? That, there are many things being taught in our Christian Churches that are contrary to Bible Teachings?
Did you know? That, according to the bible, whether we do what the bible say do or not it doesn't change the truth of the bible?
Saints, I'm shocked that more people aren't pointing out these inconsistancies with what's being taught and what the bible really does say! God Bless, Amen!
Posts: 13 | From: Fort Smith Arkansas | Registered: Jun 2007
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