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Brotherbrown
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quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Brotherbrown,
might I ask where you come by your opinion that Jesus/Yehua is not GOD.

is there a denomination, a movement or group you are a part of that shair this theory?

T7

I'm not affiliated with any denomination. And the movement would have to be the Spirit led.
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Thunderz7
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Brotherbrown,
might I ask where you come by your opinion that Jesus/Yehua is not GOD.

is there a denomination, a movement or group you are a part of that share this theory?

T7

Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Brotherbrown
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quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
quote:
I read John and didnt come up with the same conclusion you did. What I see is that the Word was with God and then God sent the Word to us through Jesus.

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(NKJ)

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
(NKJ)

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

How do you dismiss the bold part?

quote:
John 1:17-18
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
(NKJ)

We both see the Son in the bosom of the Father;
do you not see Oneness in this?

As I posted earlier about the Lamb in the Revelation, and Jesus at the right hand of the Father;
I see "in the bosom of the Father and "in the midst" and "at the right hand" as the same place;
do you?


T7

I see the bold part as "was" the Word was with God. I see God(the Father) giving the Word(words) to Jesus and Jesus teaching us with them.

John 12:49
49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
(NKJ)
I see the Only begotten Word of God is full of grace and truth.


John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
(NKJ)

I see the only begotten Word of God full of grace and truth came through the only begotten Son of God-Jesus. Who is the only begotten Son of God.

John 1:17-18
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
(NKJ)

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Thunderz7
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quote:
I read John and didnt come up with the same conclusion you did. What I see is that the Word was with God and then God sent the Word to us through Jesus.

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(NKJ)

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
(NKJ)

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

How do you dismiss the bold part?

quote:
John 1:17-18
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
(NKJ)

We both see the Son in the bosom of the Father;
do you not see Oneness in this?

As I posted earlier about the Lamb in the Revelation, and Jesus at the right hand of the Father;
I see "in the bosom of the Father and "in the midst" and "at the right hand" as the same place;
do you?


T7

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Thunderz7
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Brotherbrown,
I'm glad your here, you're making me look harder at some things.

I don't mind disagreeing with someone on doctrine,
I disagree with most all mainline denomination doctrine and theories, at least the things that make them stand apart as a denomination, dividing the Body of Christ.

>I believe YHWH is one GOD who is triune <

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Pslams 19:1 <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.>> The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

>I see the triune nature of the One GOD in His creation<

I do not follow Trinity doctrine;
to me Trinity theories say GOD is always three totally separate persons and can never be one.
Calling the Father the first person,
Jesus/Yeshua the second person,
Holy Spirit the third person,
is like saying
Jesus/Yeshua is a second rate citizen and
Holy Spirit is a third class citizen.
I won't go on but could

I do not follow Oneness doctrine,
though I am probably closer to Oneness than Trinity;
to me Oneness theories say GOD is limited to one place and one time.
Again I won't go on

YHWH is not limited by His creation,
He is all powerful, all knowing, everywhere.
If HE chooses to show me something in His Oneness,
HE is well able to be One;
If HE wants to show me something in His Triune Nature, HE is well able to be three.
My understanding might be limited, but HIS power is not.

Man made doctrines, theories and traditions try to but GOD in a box,
thus limiting GOD to the confines of that box;
Well GOD is in the box!!!
HE totally fills the box;
HE is also, despite man's wants and wishes, everywhere outside the box!!!
Not only is he fillng the box, and all space outside the box;
HE is the box!!!

be blessed in Jesus
T7

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Brotherbrown
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quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
quote:
I said
That is an oxymoron. You say Jesus is God and yet you say no one has seen God at that time.
You have lost all reason and logic.

A joke here, along with personal conviction;
>personal conviction part = the Bible teaches one GOD who is triune,
NOT Oneness doctrine,
NOT Trinity doctrine.<
>joke part = any moron can understand it, no bovine necessary< [Wink] oxy

To read the fist chapter of John and not understand that the WORD is GOD and Jesus is the WORD;
now that is one who never had any reason and logic to loose.

May the Spirit lead us all into His understanding, reason and logic
T7

I read John and didnt come up with the same conclusion you did. What I see is that the Word was with God and then God sent the Word to us through Jesus.

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(NKJ)

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
(NKJ)

John 1:17-18
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
(NKJ)

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Thunderz7
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John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

>Those who don't have an ear or an eye for the WORD neither hear the voice of the Father nor see Him.<

>For those who do have an ear and an eye for the WORD<
John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

>If you "know" the WORD, you can see and hear the Father,
if you don't "know" the Word, you won't<

T7

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Thunderz7
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quote:
Like the thread says. Prove it. You cant prove there is a trinity. Because there isnt. That is an oxymoron. Dont you believe Jesus?
Jesus said the Father is the only true God.

John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

>don't stop at three<

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

>Jesus had glory with the Father before the world was,
Jesus came from the Father and went back to the Father.
Glory = the presence of GOD, the lifeforce of GOD.<


1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
>the life of the flesh is in the blood (Lev.17:11)
as long as your lifeforce is in the bloodline of the first Adam you can't behold GOD in His fullness, His full Glory, the fulness of His presence<

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

>Jesus, the last Adam, came to the disciples, flesh and bone, but His lifeforce was no longer in blood (He had applied His Blood to the Mercy Seat on our behalf)
His lifeforce is the Glory of GOD.
When Thomas saw and touched,
Thomas knew who He was/is,
Lord and God<

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
>man is triune, in the image of GOD, spirit, soul and body<

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
>John was not in the flesh at the throne;
the bloodline of the first Adam was not his lifeforce at that time,
John was in the spirit outside the flesh and blood.<

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
>this Lamb stood in the midst of the "one" who sat on the throne in v2&3<

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
>Jesus/Yeshua, the WORD, the Lamb, was in the midst of the Father before the world was created and is so again<

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

>v.10, Jesus in the midst of the Father,
the Father in the midst of Jesus.
v.16, the Father will send a Comforter that "he" may abide with me.
v.17, the Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit is that Comforter who dwells in me.
v18, Jesus will come to you.
v.20, Jesus in the Father, me in Jesus, Jesus in me.

Looks like Father Son and Holy Spirit are in the midst of each other, giving me the opportunity to be with them.<

Eph.1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph.2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

>at the right hand of the Father, who sits on the throne (one throne),
the Lamb in the midst, where John sat in Rev.4:2<

T7

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Thunderz7
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quote:
I said
That is an oxymoron. You say Jesus is God and yet you say no one has seen God at that time.
You have lost all reason and logic.

A joke here, along with personal conviction;
>personal conviction part = the Bible teaches one GOD who is triune,
NOT Oneness doctrine,
NOT Trinity doctrine.<
>joke part = any moron can understand it, no bovine necessary< [Wink] oxy

To read the fist chapter of John and not understand that the WORD is GOD and Jesus is the WORD;
now that is one who never had any reason and logic to loose.

May the Spirit lead us all into His understanding, reason and logic
T7

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Brotherbrown
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quote:
Originally posted by lonlesol:
quote:
That is an oxymoron. You say Jesus is God and yet you say no one has seen God at that time.
You have lost all reason and logic.

No...keep reading...and learn...


Question: "If Jesus was God, why did He call God "My God?""

Answer: This can definitely be a confusing issue. It all goes back to the "mystery" of the Trinity. When Jesus was on the cross, He quoted Psalm 22 (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34). This was a psalm of David, but it was a Messianic prophecy as well. The entire psalm contains remarkable predictions by David concerning the coming Messiah. So, one of the reasons He called God "my God" was to fulfill the prophecy of the psalm.

At the moment of His death on the cross, Christ was experiencing the abandonment and despair that resulted from the outpouring of divine wrath upon the sin that He bore. This was the price He paid to redeem His church–all who would ever believe in Him–and He paid it in full. At the cross, Jesus in His humanity voluntarily surrendered His will to the Father in order to finish the task for which He came into the world. In the same way, He voluntarily emptied Himself of certain aspects of His deity when He came to earth as a man. In some way we can’t fully understand, God the Father turned away from God the Son for that moment, and Jesus died a very lonely death.

There are other places He calls God His God. In John 20:17 and Revelation 3:2,12, Jesus calls God "My God." Why would God call Himself "My God"? It has to do with Christ's relationship to His Father. Even though Christ is the eternal God Himself incarnate, He is still a different person from the Father. As a man and as man's representative (Son of Man), Jesus' person was dependent on the Father and, like us, looked to the Father for strength, guidance, wisdom, etc. Therefore, God the Father was the God of Jesus. The Father is the God of the Son, but it doesn't imply inferiority, only a difference in roles.


http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-say-my-God.html

Like the thread says. Prove it. You cant prove there is a trinity. Because there isnt. That is an oxymoron. Dont you believe Jesus?
Jesus said the Father is the only true God.

John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

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Eden
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The Spirit says and does a lot more than only confirm the Word of God. The Spirit of God knows everything what is going on, so the Spirit may send me outside to my car to go get something, only to find that I had dropped a $100 bill on the ground next to my car. Of course, that is not in the Bible at all.

But, thank You, Holy Spirit:

Psalm 37:23
The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delights in his way.

The Spirit speaks to our spirit all things that we need to know and do, and that includes normal domestic and non-domestic duties. Nothing is too small or too large for the Spirit to help us in, and this goes way beyond, but does not contradict, what the Word of God says and does for us.

Have a great day with the Spirit,
Eden

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lonlesol
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quote:
That is an oxymoron. You say Jesus is God and yet you say no one has seen God at that time.
You have lost all reason and logic.

No...keep reading...and learn...


Question: "If Jesus was God, why did He call God "My God?""

Answer: This can definitely be a confusing issue. It all goes back to the "mystery" of the Trinity. When Jesus was on the cross, He quoted Psalm 22 (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34). This was a psalm of David, but it was a Messianic prophecy as well. The entire psalm contains remarkable predictions by David concerning the coming Messiah. So, one of the reasons He called God "my God" was to fulfill the prophecy of the psalm.

At the moment of His death on the cross, Christ was experiencing the abandonment and despair that resulted from the outpouring of divine wrath upon the sin that He bore. This was the price He paid to redeem His church–all who would ever believe in Him–and He paid it in full. At the cross, Jesus in His humanity voluntarily surrendered His will to the Father in order to finish the task for which He came into the world. In the same way, He voluntarily emptied Himself of certain aspects of His deity when He came to earth as a man. In some way we can’t fully understand, God the Father turned away from God the Son for that moment, and Jesus died a very lonely death.

There are other places He calls God His God. In John 20:17 and Revelation 3:2,12, Jesus calls God "My God." Why would God call Himself "My God"? It has to do with Christ's relationship to His Father. Even though Christ is the eternal God Himself incarnate, He is still a different person from the Father. As a man and as man's representative (Son of Man), Jesus' person was dependent on the Father and, like us, looked to the Father for strength, guidance, wisdom, etc. Therefore, God the Father was the God of Jesus. The Father is the God of the Son, but it doesn't imply inferiority, only a difference in roles.


http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-say-my-God.html

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lonlesol
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Question: "What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?"

Answer: The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to adequately explain it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are, therefore we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean it is not true or not based on the teachings of the Bible.

Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word "Trinity" is not used in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God, the fact that there are 3 coexistent, co-eternal persons that make up God. Understand that this is NOT in any way suggesting 3 Gods. The Trinity is 1 God made up of 3 persons. There is nothing wrong with using the term "Trinity" even though the word is not found in the Bible. It is shorter to say the word "Trinity" than to say "3 coexistent, co-eternal persons making up 1 God." If this presents a problem to you, consider this: the word grandfather is not used in the Bible either. Yet, we know there were grandfathers in the Bible. Abraham was the grandfather of Jacob. So don't get hung up on the term "Trinity" itself. What should be of real importance is that the concept that is REPRESENTED by the word "Trinity" does exist in Scripture. With the introduction out of the way, Bible verses will be given in discussion of the Trinity.

1) There is one God: Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5.

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons: Genesis 1:1; 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; 48:16; 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17; Matt 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14. In the passages in the Old Testament, a knowledge of Hebrew is helpful. In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for "us" is used. That "Elohim" and "us" refer to more than two is WITHOUT question. In English, you only have two forms, singular and plural. In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. Dual is for two ONLY. In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "us" are plural forms - definitely more than two - and must be referring to three or more (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of 3 distinct persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages: In the Old Testament, "LORD" is distinguished from "Lord" (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The "LORD" has a "Son" (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). Spirit is distinguished from the "LORD" (Numbers 27:18) and from "God" (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, John 14:16-17 is where Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit. This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all of the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another person in the Trinity - the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God: The Father is God: John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2. The Son is God: John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20. The Holy Spirit is God: Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16 (The One who indwells is the Holy Spirit - Romans 8:9; John 14:16-17; Acts 2:1-4).

5) The subordination within the Trinity: Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship, and does not deny the deity of any person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see: Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21; 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see: John 14:16; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7 and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The tasks of the individual members of the Trinity: The Father is the ultimate source or cause of: 1) the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); 2) divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); 3) salvation (John 3:16-17); and 4) Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father INITIATES all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: 1) the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); 2) divine revelation (John 1:1; Matthew 11:27; John 16:12-15; Revelation 1:1); and 3) salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: 1) creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); 2) divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); 3) salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and 4) Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

None of the popular illustrations are completely accurate descriptions of the Trinity. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not parts of God, each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better but still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration. Instead of focusing on the Trinity, try to focus on the fact of God's greatness and infinitely higher nature than our own. "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" (Romans 11:33-34)

Below is the best symbol for the Trinity we are aware of:


 -


http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

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Brotherbrown
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quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Jn.5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

When Jesus spoke this John had not seen the shape of the Father nor hard His voice.
but in -
Rev.4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


Jn.14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jn.21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Jesus did and said many more things than are written,
the Holy Spirit knows them all.


1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

The Holy Spirit is GOD.

Jn.1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jesus is the WORD
The WORD is GOD.


Heb.3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb.3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

GOD speaks To day.


Can you prove that Jesus is not the WORD?
Can you prove the WORD is not GOD?
Can you prove the Holy Spirit is not GOD?

T7

I said
That is an oxymoron. You say Jesus is God and yet you say no one has seen God at that time.
You have lost all reason and logic.

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Thunderz7
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Jn.5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

When Jesus spoke this John had not seen the shape of the Father nor hard His voice.
but in -
Rev.4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


Jn.14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jn.21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Jesus did and said many more things than are written,
the Holy Spirit knows them all.


1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

The Holy Spirit is GOD.

Jn.1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jesus is the WORD
The WORD is GOD.


Heb.3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb.3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

GOD speaks To day.


Can you prove that Jesus is not the WORD?
Can you prove the WORD is not GOD?
Can you prove the Holy Spirit is not GOD?

T7

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Brotherbrown
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quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
quote:
The verse is talking about the Holy Spirit not God. From what all I have learned God doesnt speak to us anymore.
The Holy Spirit is GOD,
HE speaks to those who have an ear to hear;
HE talks daily to those who listen.


quote:
The Holy Spirit only quotes verses.
When the Holy Spirit speaks, what HE says will line up with the WORD;
because the Holy Spirit is GOD,
Jesus is the WORD,
and the WORD is GOD;
but HE doesn't "only" quote printed verses.

T7

I know you can say that but as the thread states prove all things. Can you prove it?
I can prove it says God doesnt speak to us, and I can prove that the Holy Spirit does speak to us with the verses.

John 5:37
37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
(NKJ)

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
(NKJ)

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Aaron
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quote:
The Spirit only quotes scripture.
Along the lines of what Thunder already said: if the above were true then scripture would not exist.

Amen, Thunder!
Aaron

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Thunderz7
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quote:
The verse is talking about the Holy Spirit not God. From what all I have learned God doesnt speak to us anymore.
The Holy Spirit is GOD,
HE speaks to those who have an ear to hear;
HE talks daily to those who listen.


quote:
The Holy Spirit only quotes verses.
When the Holy Spirit speaks, what HE says will line up with the WORD;
because the Holy Spirit is GOD,
Jesus is the WORD,
and the WORD is GOD;
but HE doesn't "only" quote printed verses.

T7

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Brotherbrown
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Or their just young in their belief.

1 Cor 12:3
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
(NKJ)

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lonlesol
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Test the Spirits

''Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.''...1 John 4:1,2,3


When someone says that they believe in Jesus, that Jesus is the Son of God, but won't believe that the Bible was inspired by God...what does this sound like to you???...

To me, this sounds like a person that is Not from God...don't you think???... [Frown]

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Paul Gordon
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TEXASGRANDMA;
In response to the things that your spiritual instincts tell you! The scripture (I John 4:1-3) tells us to try the spirit (that we come up against), whether they are from God. How do we do this? We try the spirit by the spirit (word of God). We as Christians (those who have entered into rest with the Lord, Hebrews 4:1-4), should try all situations that we find ourselves in, because the word tells us to go from the presence of a foolish person when thou perceive in them not the fruits of knowledge/wisdom (prov 14:7-8). God gives (the saved) the ability to discern each situation we find ourselves in (thru his spirit that is in us, Romans 8:11; Galatianss 2:20)! May God Bless. Amen

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Paul Gordon
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Eden;
King David said in Psalm 119:9;11; where withal shall a young man cleanse his way by taking heed to thy word. Thy word have I hid in my heart so that I might not sin against thee. The Apostle Psul said in II Timothy 2:15, study to show thy self appoved unto God (not man) for a workman need not to be ashamed for rigtly dividing the word of God. Saints, quoting verses and or memorizing verses is necessary to get God's word into our hearts. If your studying consist of just reading the word minus meditating on the word you will never meet the qualifications of the above verses. God looks on man different than man looks on man; man looks at the outer events but God looks on the heart (I Samuel 16:7; Acts 1:24). I John 5:14 teaches us that there are (3) parts to the triune God (Father, word/son and the Holy Ghost/comforter. It teaches us that they are three (3) but yet they are one. John 16:7 teaches us that the Holy Spirit (comforter) couldn't come into the world until after Christ had gone away. Saints, a testament/New Testament is of no value as long as the testator (Christ) liveth (Hebrews 9:15-17)! In the Old Testament God the Father spoke directly to Moses (Numbers 12:6-8). He spoke to the other prophets and the High Priest thru dreams and visions . However today he speaks to us thru his son (Holy Spirit/word of God in our hearts). The phrase (Bible Believing) wasn't relevant because the Bible/New Testament didn't exist, therefore God gave the early Church (the Church did not start until after Christ's death, burial and ascension, on the day of Pentecost; Acts 2 in the Bible) the (free) gift of the Holy Spirit (to help lead them into the things of Christ (Acts 2:38). Saints, the Holy Spirit/Comforter can not speak any thing but what the Son/Christ's word/New Testament has said (John 14:26; John 16:13-14). Everything in the Bible (both old and new) were did to point us to Christ (including the Holy Spirit).
May God Bless! Amen!

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Brotherbrown
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I believe the Holy Spirit does say other things to your Spirit other then Bible Verses. There have been times, I have felt in my spirit that I was in danger and should avoid certain things. There have been times that I was around a certain person, and I felt in my spirit that I needed to get away from that person. I believe the Holy Spirit can warn us of danger.
betty

Well you do have a guardian angel that speaks to you carnally. But as far as all the evidence the Holy Spirit only quotes verses. And the Holy Spirit is also the only guarantee in the bible.

2 Cor 5:5
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
(NKJ)

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TEXASGRANDMA
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I believe the Holy Spirit does say other things to your Spirit other then Bible Verses. There have been times, I have felt in my spirit that I was in danger and should avoid certain things. There have been times that I was around a certain person, and I felt in my spirit that I needed to get away from that person. I believe the Holy Spirit can warn us of danger.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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Brotherbrown
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Aaron. You said:

"Consider too, brothers, that such a moniker ("Bible Believing") could not be used by any of the early churches simply because the Bible did not yet exist."

Eden here:

The early churches did NOT have the New Testament, but they DID have the miracles in the Old Testament and the early churches also had epistles or letters that they passed around among the early churches.

But true, the early church did NOT have the New Testament as WE know it, so that the early churches could "only" rely on the Old Testament, and rely on what had happened in the life of Jesus while Jesus was in Israel, and on the counsel of the Holy Spirit.

Whereas they had three sources for their faith, we modern Christians have four sources for our faith, even better.

Thanks, Aaron,

Eden

I guess I should have added these verses. That the HOly Spirit does quote verses but is NOT allowed to speak on His own authority. Which eliminates any other way.

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
(NKJ)

John 16:13-14
13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
(NKJ)

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Aaron
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I think Eden explained it well.

I like to add a little more. You quoted this:

quote:
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
And you conclusion was this:

quote:
This says that the Holy Spirit will only bring to remembrance(by quoting) what Jesus has already said to us.
My contention is with the phrase "will only"...as if there are no other possibilities. But that's not what it says. It says He will "bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you" that's for certain. But it does not say "He will only etc..."

See the difference?

Bless you,
Aaron

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Eden
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Hi, Aaron. You said:

"Consider too, brothers, that such a moniker ("Bible Believing") could not be used by any of the early churches simply because the Bible did not yet exist."

Eden here:

The early churches did NOT have the New Testament, but they DID have the miracles in the Old Testament and the early churches also had epistles or letters that they passed around among the early churches.

But true, the early church did NOT have the New Testament as WE know it, so that the early churches could "only" rely on the Old Testament, and rely on what had happened in the life of Jesus while Jesus was in Israel, and on the counsel of the Holy Spirit.

Whereas they had three sources for their faith, we modern Christians have four sources for our faith, even better.

Thanks, Aaron,

Eden

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Hi, Brotherbrown. You said:

“The verse is talking about the Holy Spirit, not God. From all I have learned, God doesn’t speak to us anymore."

John 5:37
37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
(NKJ)

Heb 1:1-2
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
(NKJ)

Eden here:

The LORD God and the Lord Jesus speak to the believers on earth THROUGH the or BY WAY OF the Holy Spirit. It is just like wireless technology, God and Jesus talk from heaven through the Holy Spirit to the believers.

Jesus said, I do nothing of My own, but what I see the Father do, that I do” on earth:

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do: for whatsoever things He {the Father} does, these also the Son does likewise.

Just before Jesus ascended to heaven, He told the disciples that He was glad that He was departing because now all the believers would be equipped with the Holy Spirit (being born again by the Spirit, and not by water only), and now ALL believers are being talked to by God and by Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

As Jesus said, “Those who have an ear, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches…”:

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches …”

To summarize, Brotherbrown, you said:

God and Jesus are still speaking and doing and directing, all Christians who will listen to the Holy Spirit.

“The verse is talking about the Holy Spirit, not God. From all I have learned, God doesn’t speak to us anymore.”

Do God and Jesus still talk to us?

John 16:7
Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, [b]the Comforter will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

with love, Eden

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Brotherbrown
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by Brotherbrown:

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
(NKJ)

So Paul was there, too?

I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Are you saying that the words in the Bible are the only thing God speaks now?

Aaron

I said
I'm really getting confused now. The verse is talking about the Holy Spirit not God. From what all I have learned God doesnt speak to us anymore.

John 5:37
37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
(NKJ)

Heb 1:1-2

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
(NKJ)

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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Brotherbrown:

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
(NKJ)

So Paul was there, too?

I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Are you saying that the words in the Bible are the only thing God speaks now?

Aaron

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Brotherbrown
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Consider too, brothers, that such a moniker ("Bible Believing") could not be used by any of the early churches simply because the Bible did not yet exist.

The ultimate authority in the church has always been the Spirit of God.

Rom 14:17 "..for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

So it is not so much that they are correct Biblically (for even the devil quotes scripture) it is, rather, are they lead by God in all they do.

Aaron

I said
That is confusing. The Holy Spirit only quotes verses. This says that the Holy Spirit will only bring to remembrance(by quoting) what Jesus has already said to us. When we read the Word He is speaking to us. When one of them verses come back to remembrance the Holy Spirit is speaking to us.

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
(NKJ)

That is the only quarantee of salvation.

2 Cor 5:5
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
(NKJ)

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Aaron
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Consider too, brothers, that such a moniker ("Bible Believing") could not be used by any of the early churches simply because the Bible did not yet exist.

The ultimate authority in the church has always been the Spirit of God.

Rom 14:17 "..for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

So it is not so much that they are correct Biblically (for even the devil quotes scripture) it is, rather, are they lead by God in all they do.

Aaron

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Brotherbrown
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Very good I can see you are Spirit led. when you posted the verse that the Spirit was leading you with.
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Paul Gordon
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brotherbrown; we are to serve God rather that man, these are the words that Peter and John used when confronted by the sanhedrin courcil and asked not to teach or preach in the name of Jesus Christ again (Acts 4:18-20). The Apostle Paul said in Galatians 1:10, for do I now persuade men or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I please men I should not be the servant of Christ. Jesus Christ said in John 8:31; if you continue in my word then and then only are you my servant. Amen!
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Brotherbrown
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I would have to agree that all christians should prove what ever they say about the bible. But that is harder to do than you would think. I have noticed even on the net in these forums. That one can get kicked out if they prove these forums are wrong in what they are standing on. So that leaves a true christian in a delima. It seems to many of these forums are baseing their forums on popularity rather than the bible.
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Paul Gordon
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should the church prove the things that it does by the word of God! If what we are doing (in the church) runs contrary to what the word say should we continue in our tradition or yield and come in alignment with the word of God!
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