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timspong
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I wouldn't worry too much about predestination and election that is more bedrock stuff that is out of your control. There is no way you can know and must treat everyone as though they have a very good chance of salvation as indeed I am sure they do.

You have obviously been given a heart for these people and God may well want to use you as one of many instruments for reaching them.

What can you do?

Pray for them
Be and example for them of uncompromised God centered living
Let them be aware that you are a source of biblical teaching should they become seekers of truth.

God will often let people follow the path of iniquity until they reach a dead end and it is at that point they often look to him and need people like you to guide them. Often times they don’t know what they are looking for and you need to guide them to into a realization that it is God.

Remember that God never saves anyone against their will and important lessons are often learned while one is still steeped in iniquity. Everyone who comes to Christ must come at the right time in their life when they are ripe to be harvested.

I never knew Christ until I was 37 and was about as secular as you could possibly be. I was in a rock band and lived a pretty debauched life. However, I was brought to the Lord through the prayers of others and a ecclesiastical realization of the futility of my situation.

Judging by the number of suicides in the NW, I think many are coming into a realization their futile situation and God needs people like you to lead them into repentance so they can turn around and see God.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong

Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
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Hi, Papa Peru. You said:

“I just don't understand why God needs to create people who will eventually reject him? God is sovereign in all things, why does he create people destined for eternal torment?”

Eden here:

God did build into us the instrument of choice because the design that you are proposing would amount to robotic love. Love is only love if it is freewill chosen to love, not if one is “stet to love”. How much gratitude and heart-love could the LORD generate in Himself if He knew that HE HIMSELF HAD PRE-PROGRAMMED US TO LOVE HIM?

Do you see the difference in the value of love that God, and we, can experience when it is a LOVE OUT OF CHOICE? God therefore placed the instrument of choice within us, so that we can CHOOSE TO LOVE HIM.

But placing an instrument of choice within us also ran the inherent risk that we would, well, choose whatever WE wanted, instead of loving God and listening to God, as Adam and Eve indeed ended up doing.

Romans 9:22
What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

Dear brother, God did allow the descendants of Adam and Eve to continue down the path of self-reliance without input from God, so that God, in the end, would be able to show what His power is compared to what OUR power by now has become.

And yes, God has provided salvation through Jesus WHOEVER wants to escape the coming destruction. But other than that, God will eventually save who wanted to be saved and destroy the Adam and Eve line of life that God had ALLOWED TO CONTINUE so that God could show to mankind the DIFFERENCE between the glory of man and the glory of God, so that SIN WILL NOT RISE UP A SECOND TIME:

Nahum 1:9
What do you imagine against the LORD? He will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

To summarize, Papa Peru, God created the instrument of choice, but He left it up to the chooser to do the choosing. Hmmm, shall I choose the LORD? Or shall I do it myself?

And we know what Adam and Eve did. God will put an end to it by destroying the Adam and Eve line but will save those who CHOSE or were ABLE TO CHOOSE to escape the destruction:

Luke 21:36
Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of man.

But for those who think "they are all that", they will be caught up in the destruction of the Adam and Eve line:

Romans 9:22
What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

Nahum 1:9
What do you imagine against the LORD? He will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Escaping through Christ on the cross:
Eden

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lonlesol
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Papa Peru...


God knows how much I tried to explain to my husband and daughter about this a few years ago, but they wouldn't listen to me...maybe it was my own fault, maybe I didn't know how to explain it well enough to them, but I did try to make it as easy as possible to understand...

I even asked my husband if he would listen to my Pastor if he came to our house...he said that he would accept to listen to him but once the Pastor came, talked and tried to answer his questions as best he could and left that day, he turned around and told some of our friends that I forced him into listening to the Pastor, which wasn't true at all...he did agree to listen to him in the first place...

My husband and my daughter made their choice last year...they think that I am way overboard with God, that I am getting too obsessed with this ''Christianity thing'' as he calls it...my daughter is too young to understand that she was manipulated by his way of thinking, she will be 16 years old in less than a month...

I found out very recently that my husband has had a woman in his life for at least a year, possibly even before he left me...he won't admit that he is committing adultery and our daughter is convinced that he is teaching her about respect, she told me so the last time I saw her two weeks ago...but it is obvious that he is only showing her that it is all right for a father to leave his wife, the mother of his children, for another woman...but according to the Bible, that is not respect at all!...

Last year, the day they both left the day after Father's Day, my daughter was packing her suitcase. She stood in front of me, asked me if I was intending on keeping reading and studying the Bible and of course, I didn't hesitate and answered yes...the next think I knew, she turned around, went back in her bedroom and continued on packing her suitcase!...now if that isn't the devil's work, I don't know what it is!!!...all she wants is freedom to do whatever she wants, whenever she wants...those typical teennage years...

It scares me and it deeply saddens me to see how our own loved ones can so easily turn away from God's Love!...

In all the years we have been married, my husband always told me to not question him, to stop wondering if he loved me or not, that I should not question him about this...but you see, when a husband never shows affection and never tells his wife that he loves her unless she begs him to show or tell her, and if that husband sleeps in the basement for the last few years of them living together, giving all sorts of reasons to not spend the night in bed with his own wife, well, she will definitely have such wonderings...


I guess that, Papa Peru, I will have to grab a seat on the few lifeboats leaving the Titanic and then forget about those that turned their back on God to drown if I don't want to sink myself!... [Frown]

Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TEXASGRANDMA
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We do not understand God's ways. When we think about how long eternity is, no one no matter how much we love them is worth missing Heaven for. If we are lucky we live to 100 now days, but eternity is forever. Jesus said we must love Him more then our own family. To us human beings that seems cold, but when compared to an eternity in hell we realize that serving God is more important then anything.
Let me tell you a story that is true in my family. My cousin and I married two brothers. Her husband left the Church and my cousin said "_________is going to hell and I am going with him. So she too turned her back on God. A few years later this man left her because she had became an alcoholic and committed adultery. She gave up her soul to please a man. She turn to drink when she tried to fill up the hole left in her heart for God. Now she is divorced bitter and refuses to come back to God. Unless she changes she will spend eternity in hell trying to please a man. Ironically this man is now remarried and they are beginning to open their hearts up to God.
I would take a bullet for my kids but I won't go to hell for them. This sounds cruel, but there is no one worth being apart from God for eternity.
Please don't turn away from God but ask Him to help you accept His truths.
I care about you and hope to see you in Heaven some day.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Papa Peru
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Thank you all for your kind heartfelt responses. I understand that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 5:8). And I believe that all of us, saved and unsaved, deserve hell. I just don't understand why God needs to create people who will evenetually reject him? God is sovereign in all things, why does he create people destined for eternal torment?

Romans: 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—..."

If we are like dogs in comparison with God (Matt 15:27) how is it glorifying for God to destroy the rabid ones? While I have been tempted in the past to believe that Romans chapter 2 lets hordes and hordes of unbelievers into heaven I feel that that isn't an accurate reading of the text.

The question I am struggling with isn't just about my friends and family. Even if they were all born again Christians I'd still be torn over this issue. What about all those people I'll never meet who will never meet God? Am I supposed to grab a seat on the few lifeboats leaving the Titanic and then forget about those I left behind to drown.
How can God expect me to do that after I pass on? Whether their drowning is their own fault makes no difference. To streth the analogy to it's limits, why did they have to have seats at all. Or better yet, why aren't their enough lifeboats for everybody?

Thank you for taking the time to respond and I will follow your advice and continue praying. I am a part of a Bible Believing church but I worry about asking these questions as openly as I can on an anonymous Christian Forum. Thank you again for your prayer and support.

--------------------
"I have no doubt that one life weighs more than all the books on life" Elie Wiesel

Posts: 2 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TEXASGRANDMA
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Jhn 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be savedJhn 3:18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I still believe that no one will go to hell with out a chance at salvation. Our Pastor in Houston went many years ago to a part of Africa which had never had a preacher before. When he preached the message of salvation in English, before the translator even translated for people to come up to be saved, hundreds raised their hands.
After the service through a translator, the people said that they knew about God but they did not know His name. I believe God had dealt with these people and prepared their hearts for salvation.
I believe that God deals with every person and all are given a chance to be saved.
God says many times through His Word that He desires for not one soul to go to hell.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
barrykind
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Papa you have valid questions, and i think that the scripture gives clear answers.

Texas Gma stated:
quote:
Everyone has a chance to get saved. God deals with everyone and gives them a chance.
The Bible does not make this ascertion anywhere that i have ever read.
Correct me if im wrong. The Bible states "Many" not all are called, but "FEW" are chosen.

Dont get me wrong im not "Calvanist" .(One who belives that God has only "Elected" to save the ones He chose and no one else has a chance.) For just as the lesson of the kernal of corn falls into the ground and dies one cannot see the kingdom of heaven. That kernal of corn has all the DNA to be a blade a stalk and an ear of corn. They all were placed on the ground, some were too shallow, died, some where eaten of the birds and died, but those placed in good ground and watered and given increase of YaHWeH grew. Salvation is of the Lord! But we have our part. ONCE WE ARE SAVED (Born Again) we have our part. The first aformentioned part is totally GRACE>>>>>BY GRACE we are saved and that NOT of ourselves it is the GIFT of God, the bible states. BUT o after we are saved the branch must proved fruit.....if we abide in the vine we will;;;but if not continuallly abiding in the vine we will be CUT OFF!++

But do let us remember that God (YaHWeH) is Soveregn.
God chose to harden Pharoah's heart when Pharoah was determined to let the children os Israel go.

We cry out for God's mercy, grace...not only for ourselves but for all mankind that we come into contact with. God is moved by our compasion through his son Yahoshua (Jesus) whom he felt our infirmities and knows our weaknesses.

Romans talks about those that know not God but have a conscience within themselvers. Knowing right from wrong... There are seemingly different degrees of torment or hell; simply saying that the Lord hHimself said it would be better for Sodom and Gormorrah than for those certain Pharisees because if what was preached to them was preached in Sodom they would have repented long ago.

Im not real sure about those scriptures, but in retrospect one must have his (hers) sin paid for by the Blood of Yahoshua or thier own hide. for the wages of sin is DEATH (eternal) Death!

Absence from the presence of YaHWeH Almighty!

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living GOD!

The scripture must balance and must mesh together or we have a distorted veiw of scripture.


YES GOD IS LOVE and if ye do not forgive --your not going to see the kingdom of heaven..GOD IS LOVE but if you see your Brother in need and do not help if it is within your power to help...YOUR NOT GOING TO SEE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN!!! period.. IF YOUR predjiduce how can we say we love God and hate our Brother MADE in HIS image???

Papa pray for those that are lost, i can see YaHWeH working in your life---for one of the true signs of a believer is a hunger for more of God and Love and a yearning for the lost to be saved.....Pray my Brother and i will also pray that YaHWeH God will grant a haverst amoung your pies and people..For the time is nigh unto the end...Work now Brother while it is stilled called DAY for the NIGHT cometh when NO MAN can work...

lastly 'BE NOT WEARY IN WELL DOING MY BROTHER FOR IN DUE SEASON YOU SHALL REAP IF YOU FAINT NOT!!!!

--------------------
The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
barrykind
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Papa you have valid questions, and i think that the scripture gives clear answers.

Texas Gma stated:
quote:
Everyone has a chance to get saved. God deals with everyone and gives them a chance.
The Bible does not make this ascertion anywhere that i have ever read.
Correct me if im wrong. The Bible states "Many" not all are called, but "FEW" are chosen.

Dont get me wrong im not "Calvanist" .(One who belives that God has only "Elected" to save the ones He chose and no one else has a chance.) For just as the lesson of the kernal of corn falls into the ground and dies one cannot see the kingdom of heaven. That kernal of corn has all the DNA to be a blade a stalk and an ear of corn. They all were placed on the ground, some were too shallow, died, some where eaten of the birds and died, but those placed in good ground and watered and given increase of YaHWeH grew. Salvation is of the Lord! But we have our part. ONCE WE ARE SAVED (Born Again) we have our part. The first aformentioned part is totally GRACE>>>>>BY GRACE we are saved and that NOT of ourselves it is the GIFT of God, the bible states. BUT o after we are saved the branch must proved fruit.....if we abide in the vine we will;;;but if not continuallly abiding in the vine we will be CUT OFF!++

But do let us remember that God (YaHWeH) is Soveregn.
God chose to harden Pharoah's heart when Pharoah was determined to let the children os Israel go.

We cry out for God's mercy, grace...not only for ourselves but for all mankind that we come into contact with. God is moved by our compasion through his son Yahoshua (Jesus) whom he felt our infirmities and knows our weaknesses.

Romans talks about those that know not God but have a conscience within themselvers. Knowing right from wrong... There are seemingly different degrees of torment or hell; simply saying that the Lord hHimself said it would be better for Sodom and Gormorrah than for those certain Pharisees because if what was preached to them was preached in Sodom they would have repented long ago.

Im not real sure about those scriptures, but in retrospect one must have his (hers) sin paid for by the Blood of Yahoshua or thier own hide. for the wages of sin is DEATH (eternal) Death!

Absence from the presence of YaHWeH Almighty!

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living GOD!

The scripture must balance and must mesh together or we have a distorted veiw of scripture.


YES GOD IS LOVE and if ye do not forgive --your not going to see the kingdom of heaven..GOD IS LOVE but if you see your Brother in need and do not help if it is within your power to help...YOUR NOT GOING TO SEE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN!!! period.. IF YOUR predjiduce how can we say we love God and hate our Brother MADE in HIS image???

Papa pray for those that are lost, i can see YaHWeH working in your life---for one of the true signs of a believer is a hunger for more of God and Love and a yearning for the lost to be saved.....Pray my Brother and i will also pray that YaHWeH God will grant a haverst amoung your pies and people..For the time is nigh unto the end...Work now Brother while it is stilled called DAY for the NIGHT cometh when NO MAN can work...

lastly 'BE NOT WEARY IN WELL DOING MY BROTHER FOR IN DUE SEASON YOU SHALL REAP IF YOU FAINT NOT!!!!

--------------------
The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
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Hi, Papa Peru. You said:

“Why does God need to create people who will not be called into the Kingdom of Heaven? Paul says in Romans 9:22-23 that God creates people destined for hell in order to demonstrate his glory.”

Eden here:

God created all things good in the garden of Eden. It was Adam and Eve who sinned and God decided to allow self-thinking and sin to enter the earth to teach the earth a valuable lesson: that wit input from God through the Holy Spirit, life on earth goes much better than if we do “self-thinking”.

So God allowed the Adam and Eve line to continue on earth to teach humanity a valuable lesson, that only God knows how to direct men’s spirits, and man does NOT know how to direct his spirit.

At some point in this long process from Adam to now, Jesus came and died on the cross for whosoever wanted to be saved out of this Adam and Eve line, on the basis of the Son of God Jesus dying on the cross on their behalf.

This offer is extended to ALL Adam and Eve human beings, including your Adam and Eve friends:

Papa Peru continued:

“How can I enjoy heaven if I know that my closest friends and family are burning in the lake of fire eternally at the same time?”

Eden here: I personally believe that those who do not accept Jesus’s offer will be eternally destroyed, with no possibility of receiving the free gift of eternal life through Jesus.

So, if your friends in the Adam and Eve line do not accept God’s free offer in Jesus, whose fault is that? God’s? Yes, to some extent since God chose Jesus dying on the cross on our behalf as the way to a free gift of eternal life. But your friends and family are all individually responsible to escape from what will happen to the Adam and Even line in the future.

Thank the Lord that YOU have been able to escape thus far, and pray for them that they may escape the things that are soon coming upon the earth.

Papa Peru also said:

“How can I love my neighbor and God if God is most likely going to condemn my neighbor to an eternity of torment? I'm confused and worried that I'm falling away pray for me.”

Eden here: How can you love your neighbor? By being honest and telling him or her that you are a bornagain Christian when the opportunity to say so (preach and teach) presents itself.

God will end this Adam and Even earth-play, and God will start over with a NEW line of people, with the bornagain line of people. If your Adam and Eve friends and family do not want to receive the free gift of eternal life through Jesus, you loved your neighbor by telling them or admitting that YOU are a bornagain Christian who believes that Jesus died in your place.

First, we have to saye ourselves. Second, if we can help through preaching, teaching, and praying save others also, then praise be to the LORD and Lord God of Israel who alone is the Creator of heaven and earth, as demonstrated by the numerous miracles in the Bible.

"Lord, where shall we go? For YOU have the words of eternal life".

love, Eden

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oneinchrist
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Hi Papa Peru,
Its nice to meet you. First of all, God gives us all the opportunity to live forever with our redeemer..but the catch is that it only comes through faith in Jesus. The Devil would like for you to believe that your friends have no hope. I agree with Texas Grandma that it would be a good idea to get involved with a bible believing church. We need people that we can actively and personally share our faith with in order to grow and mature in the Lord. I pray that God strengthens you with the love that is necessary to witness to a dying world. With love in Christ, Daniel.

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TEXASGRANDMA
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Although I am from Texas, I live in Washington State. The first thing I did when I got here four years ago was find a good Bible believing Church.
Everyone has a chance to get saved. God deals with everyone and gives them a chance. I know it is hard to see those we love and care about reject the truth of the Gospel. The best thing we can do is live for Christ in front of them and serve as an example of what a Christian is. But everyone has to decide for themselves. We can pray for them and we should, but they have to choose Jesus for themselves to be saved. You may not see the day your friends get saved, but if you are an example to them, one day they might except Jesus as their Savior. My husband did not get saved until he was almost 50. So hang in there and don't give up.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Papa Peru
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I have been struggling with something that has begun to seriously shake my relationship with God. I recently graduated High School and I've had to come to terms with the fact that I won't see alot of my friends again. I live in the Pacific Northwest which is a notoriously irreligious area and therefore the vast majority of my friends are completely secular. I realize that most of the people I meet are destined for hell and I've begun to question God's decisions. Why does God need to create people who will not be called into the Kingdom of Heaven? Paul says in Romans 9:22-23 that God creates people destined for hell in order to demonstrate his glory. But why does he need to do that? What is glorious about a man putting down a rabid dog? How can I enjoy heaven if I know that my closest friends and family are burning in the lake of fire eternally at the same time? How can I love my neighbor and God if God is most likely going to condemn my neighbor to an eternity of torment? I'm confused and worried that I'm falling away pray for me.........

--------------------
"I have no doubt that one life weighs more than all the books on life" Elie Wiesel

Posts: 2 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator


 
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