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Author
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Topic: SIN
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
I pause to comment but I feel I must, I hope what I say is prayed over that the Holy Spirit might give understanding to those that read.
There is a subtle pervasive teaching that has creped into the Church that teaches that a believer must expect to sin a little everyday.
Does this teaching reflect what Yeshua died for?
Yeshua died to free mankind from the bondage of sin.
Yeshua sent the Holy Spirit to indwell the New Creation, that the New Creature might be all Yahweh desires of him, to conform the New Creature into the image of His Son.
A thought is not sin until acted upon.
Does a believer have so little control over their action?
Is the Law of Yahweh unattainable for the New Creation?
Have you ever thought about this statement made by Yeshua while giving His Sermon on the Mount….
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is Perfect
Matt 5:48
This is actually a commandment from Yeshua.
If this was not achievable Yeshua would not have demanded it.
The fact that He demanded it is proof that it is achievable.
Is Christianity just another religion?
What power is there in the Blood if you have to sin a little everyday?
I’m afraid most that claim to be saved, really only have religion.
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”—1 John 1:8.
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The quotation of this text is used probably more than that of any other in the Bible in the attempt to refute the doctrine of holiness. Perhaps it would be better to say the attempted quotation, for few ever get it right, and we never knew one to give chapter and verse. It is generally quoted thus:
“He that saith he liveth and sinneth not is a liar and the truth is not in him ;“ and that said over so very rapidly that one can scarcely catch the words. Perhaps this rapidity is due to its frequent use. “Practice makes perfect,” and practice in thus repeating such texts makes perfect adepts in denouncing Christian perfection.
We are reminded of a certain lady who quoted these words to a young preacher, a friend of the writer, and was told that such a text was not in the Bible. She replied that it was in her Bible. In about two weeks or so the preacher asked her if she had found that text yet. She said she had read through the Psalms, the four Gospels, and most of the Epistles, and had not found it, but still declared, “It is there.” One good result was that she got to reading her Bible.
If we take this verse away from its context it would seem to teach that it is self-deception for one to lay claim to freedom from sin. But is it honest to snatch a text, or a portion of one, from the context either to prove or refute a doctrine, when the tenor of Scripture teaches otherwise?
For one to take this text for a weapon against the experience or profession of holiness, proves that he is either ignorant of the Word of God, or else he is a designing man. If he is ignorant, he should not attempt to teach; if he is a designer, then he should be shunned.
If one is justified in taking a verse, or a part of the same, out of its place, then anything can be proved from the Bible. In one place it says, “There is no God ;“ but taking in the context it says, “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.” Again we read, "Let him that stole, steal ;“ but when we read the whole verse it says, “Let him that stole, steal no more.” Three verses below the one in question, the apostle John could be made to say, “My little children, these things write I unto you that ye sin.” But who would have the audacity to say that John taught the people to sin? When we add the next word and read, “that ye sin not,” we get just the opposite thought.
So it is with I John 1:8 and many other wrested Scriptures. Instead of teaching what opposers of holiness claim they do, they convey quite a different thought, and sometimes the very opposite.
What, then, does our text teach? Read the verse above, which is I John 1:7: “But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.” Suppose a garment were spotted with ink, and it were put through a process which cleanseth from all ink, how much ink would remain? Now, if a statement were made to the effect that there was no ink left, would there be any self-deception in that? On the same principle, then, if “the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin,” how much sin is left? Then, if all sin is cleansed, where is the self-deception if a testimony should be given to that effect? Of course we would not advocate self-righteousness nor self-exaltation, but on the contrary always put Jesus first, and let everybody know that all we are is through Christ Jesus. Instead of saying, “I am saved” and “I am sanctified,” putting “I” first, say, “Jesus saves” and “Jesus sanctifies.” Let the people see Jesus and not ourselves. We should be hidden away, but at the same time magnify what the Lord has done for us. Give Him all the glory.
To get at the true meaning of the verse in question, let us suppose a conversation between a Christian depending, as all must, on the blood of Christ for salvation, and a self-righteous sinner, who thinks he is good enough and has no sin, consequently no need of the cleansing blood.
Christian: My friend, did you know that “if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin?” I have proved this to be true, and if you will come to Him as I did you may prove it for yourself, and be cleansed from all sin.
Self-Righteous: But I have no sin to be cleansed away; I have no need of the blood of Jesus.
Christian: What? You say you have no sin? “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” Surely you are wrong and self-deceived. You should repent, confess your sins, and be saved, for we read in I John 1 :9. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
Self-Righteous: But I have never sinned, and do not feel that I have anything to confess or repent of. I pay my honest debts, and treat my neighbors well, and support my family, and I believe I am just as good as anyone. I am not a sinner, and have never done anything wrong.
Christian: Surely, in saving that, you are making God a liar, for in I John 1:10 it says: “If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him. liar, and His word is not in us.”
Thus we get at the meaning of the last four verses of I John 1. The text in question, then, does not have any reference whatever to one who has been cleansed from all sin, but to one who says he has no sin to be cleansed from, when he really has sin in his heart. It is also just as applicable to the unsanctified Christian who denies the further need of cleansing.
Why should we turn lawyer and plead for sin as if the atonement was a failure and sin a necessity? How some people fly to these wrested Scriptures and there pillow their heads, and slumber on in their carnal security, when God is thundering in tones of Sinai, “Sin no more !“ He is swinging the awful danger signal down the ages, “Stand in awe, and sin not.”
What sad disappointment it brings to some people when God’s prohibitions diametrically cross their carnal desires! And so they seek for comfort and ease in those misconstrued passages which will allow them to sin “just a little.”
A professing Christian lady, living in the 7th chapter of Romans, doing things that she ought not, and leaving undone the things she ought to do, because she was carnal, sold under sin, and it was no more she that did it, but sin that dwelt in her—pleading her cause one day in a conversation with a sanctified lady, asked her to read a verse in the 7th chapter of Romans, as she supposed, for her vindication. The sanctified lady, knowing that she had made a mistake in the chapter and verse, nevertheless read the one cited, when lo, it read: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein ?“ Whereupon the pleader for sin exclaimed, “That is not the verse I meant.” An unsaved person, overhearing the conversation, spoke out and said, “Hold on! That’s Bible, just the same.”
Surely we have need of consistency; it is a great jewel.
Yeshua talked about two different types of fruit in Matthew 7:16-27--good fruit and bad fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit any more than an apple tree can bring forth pears. If you are a true believer in Yeshua, your life should show forth good fruit. GOOD FRUIT, I.E. GOOD WORKS, DO NOT SAVE YOU, BELIEF IN Yeshua DOES. But good works are the external result of knowing Yeshua as Lord and Saviour.
Below, there are two types of lifestyles--Spirit-filled and flesh-filled. When you examine your everyday lifestyle, which category do you operate in?
THE SPIRIT-FILLED
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
THE FLESH-FILLED
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
If you call yourself a Christian, I sincerely hope that you are in the first category. If you are in the second category and you claim to be a Christian, here's some counsel from the Bible:
Galatians 6:7, Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
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Member # 35
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posted
Question from Eden For T7
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Love barry
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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Thunderz7 said: "I really like the thought line Barry and Daniel are getting into."
Hi, Eden here:
Please help me, "And their thought line that you liked was...?"
Eden
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Thunderz7
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posted
I really like the thought line Barry and Daniel are getting into.
John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
>I can't accept that Yeshua would tell this woman, or anyone, to do something that is impossible<
Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
>If Yeshua said it, it is possible<
Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
To Eden and Texas Grandma,
Eden, Im not sure exactly where you are coming from with your response to me. In my initial response to this topic, I was trying to convey the message that it is prideful to consider oneself perfect (through sinlessness)...then I went on to describe reasons for our inability to be perfect (without sin). I hope you dont think that I think I am perfect.
Texas Grandma, I too have OCD. I have learned by experience that it can be harnessed towards good if we bring our thoughts into the captivity of Christ, through the Word. I find it amazing how something which could be so devastating, can become an asset to the kingdom. It almost reminds me a little of the story of Saul to Paul.
A man with exteme dedication to the wrong cause, turned to a man with extreme dedication to the right cause. I remember it was about 15 years ago, I was in group therapy and the councelor asked us all about different types of obsessions and I asked the councelor...What if you were obsessed with God, would that be bad? She replied that all obsessions are bad, but I had a hard time believing that because I didnt see how God could get too much of our attention. Well, anyways Texas Grandma your reply paints a picture of a proper motive and I agree with it. I know we cannot escape sin, but we should strive to resist temptation and obey the gospel.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
I do not believe we are sinning with every little thought that comes in our heads. I used to worry alot about this because of my problems with OCD causing unwanted thoughts. I talked to my Pastor about this and he told me to think of it like this. We cannot keep a bird from landing in our tree but we can keep them from making a nest.
In other words when a unwanted thought comes in our head we are to dismiss it and not dwell on it.
Phl 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.
Thoughts become sin when we begain to dwell on these thoughts. As it has been said here sin of action starts out as sin of thought. If the devil tempts you to hate someone you can resist devil or you can allow hate to grow in your heart.
But we are not condemed for every thought that enters our heads. I am thankful to God for that.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Eden
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Hi, oneinchrist. You said:
“Hi again Barrykind,
Yes, I agree with you that the initial thoughts that come to mind upon our senses are not necessarily deemed to be sin in and of themselves.”
“Sins of the heart for example being overly jealous or envious, hatred, unforgiveness, bitterness, impatience, etc.
Eden here:
Really, brother oneinchrist? You surprised me with that statement.
You said: "The initial thoughts are not necessarily sin..."
I think they are all sin.
The moment Adam and Eve sinned, Adam and Eve and we as their descendants were forever changed into sinners. Even now, we are still sinners saved by grace. Changing? Let's hope so, but sinners still.
Like Adam and Eve, we now from birth have been eating and are still mostly eating, from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Note that it is not just evil that we eat, but good also.
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not onto your own understanding.
Adam and Eve of course “leaned upon their own understanding” instead of “leaning 100% upon what God was saying to their spirits” when they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And we as descendants of Adam and Eve also still mostly “lean upon our own understanding”, ALL of which is SIN.
Ecclesiastes 7:20
For there is not a just man upon earth who does good and who sins not.
2 Chronicles 6:36
If they sin against You (for there is no man who sins not) and You are angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near...
To be sure, we bornagain Christians now have access again to the Holy Spirit, but we are so accustomed to “leaning upon our own understanding”, that in one a day’s worth, I think that someone would be quite holy indeed if they were able to “only lean upon their own understanding” say 50% of each day and were able to “lean for the other 50% of the day on what the Spirit had said to them.”
Personally I don’t know anyone which such good figures, but perhaps you and the others do. The only one I know of who has ever had “0% leaning on his own understanding” and “100% leaning on what the Spirit had said to him”, was of course Jesus:
John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, that the Son can do nothing of himself but what he sees the Father do: for whatsoever things He {the Father} does, these also the Son does likewise.
Before we slap each other too self-congratulatorily on the backs, I would like to know who here thinks they can claim to even be 50% holy and 50% still leaning on their own understanding.
As for me? I’d be surprised if I were doing 15% holy and 85% leaning on my own understanding. For all I know, it may even be 1% holy and 99% still leaning on my own understanding.
So what do you think YOUR numbers now are, brothers and sisters? Is anyone here willing to go "50% holy or leaning entirely on what the Spirit said to your spirit" and 50% still leaning on your own understanding?
But whatever percentage you think you are, it is sure that it is NOT 0% and 100% as the percentage of our Lord.
That means that WE SIN EVERY DAY.
Covered by Christ and with love,
Eden %
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barrykind
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posted
Amein Bro. Daniel
That clarification helps me to understand what you were meaning...
love barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi again Barrykind,
Yes, I agree with you that the initial thoughts that come to mind upon our senses are not necessarily deemed to be sin in and of themselves. I guess I maybe should have used the classification "sins of the heart" instead of just saying thoughts (which is pretty vague). Sins of the heart for example being overly jealous or envious, hatred, unforgiveness, bitterness, inpatience, etc. Thank you for the clarification. With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
Jas.4
[17] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
1John.1
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Example from David.
2Sam.12
[13] And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die
[14] Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme,
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That is all.....
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
The real LSD trip. Lust Sin Death
Jas.1
[14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[15] Then when LUST hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and SIN, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH.
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That is all.....
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barrykind
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posted
Did not see your comment WildB..but a good one.
love barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
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posted
Yes Daniel My Brother.
I would not think that a thought that comes to our mind would be sin... (?)
One does sin whenb he or she lusts from the heart.
The battleground in which we war is the (mind).
Paul stated that he kept his body "under" and he brought every thought into captivity.
Must ponder more...get back later..
love barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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posted
1Cor.10
[13] There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
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That is all.....
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Barrykind,
Since sin takes on so many forms in our life(ex: thoughts, deeds, motives), it would be arrogant for any of us to claim that we are perfected in that sense...but through submission to the Holy Spirit we are in a continuous process of being perfected. We still have to make the choice to abstain from temptations that the enemy will craftily present to us. As we grow in closer intimacy with the Lord, we become more and more satisfied with what He provides, and what the world has to offer just doesnt seem as sparkly.
We wont wake up in the morning and say "Do I have to sin today?" Instead we will wake up and say "Lord, what is it that you would like me to do today?" and the voice that keeps echoing in my head is "love one another!", for that will cover a multitude of sin. With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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Hi, becauseHElives. You said:
"The older I get the more I desire to be free of this body of flesh.”
Eden here:
The older I get, the more I want to enjoy the earth, realizing that my time is short.
becauseHElives again:
“DOES ONE HAVE TO SIN EVERY DAY? No.”
Eden here:
Have to? No. DOES ONE SIN EVERY DAY? Probably. I think if we realized with Isaiah and Peter how filthy we REALLY are in righteousness and glory and knowledge and cleanliness of conscience, then we would say with Isaiah and Peter:
Luke 5:8
When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus's knees, saying, Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord.
Isaiah 6
1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up and His train filled the temple.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! For I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for My eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
So will one sin every day? Most likely, compared to what Isaiah and Peter saw. I tend to think that every human being sins every day because of the Fall of Adam and Eve.
And if we don't think so, God will ratchet up some reality for us to show us how filthy we are inside compared to Him.
"Lean NOT onto your own understanding", but "listen to the Holy Spirit who is much smarter than you".
becauseHElives, you said:
“DOES ONE HAVE TO SIN EVERY DAY? No.”
Eden here: Probably yes. We are sinners saved by grace, lest any person should boast. Compared to teh LORD YHWH and the Lord Jesus we are very filthy still, eventhough we are saved by His work on the cross alone, and alone.
With love, Eden
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
We don't have to sin everyday, but I believe we do most days. Thank God, that He forgives us, but it is hard to be perfect, especially, with your thoughts and motives. I wonder, if sometimes, we are not even aware of our own motives.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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barrykind
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posted
Yes and one scripture that comes to mind; and is so often misunderstood is.
Be Ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Most reply to this scripture as ...Well no one is perfect....
What is a BRIDE that has made herself ready...
without spot or blemish...
We cannot discount any scripture we must prayfull see how it blends with the rest of scripture..
love barry
![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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posted
The older I get the more I desire to be free of this body of flesh.
The more I press toward the mark, the high call of being conformed to the image of Yeshua, the more I understand the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
But to answer your question Barry…
DOES ONE HAVE TO SIN EVERY DAY? ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) + ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) + ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif) = no
The scriptures do teach an expectation of perfect obedience in this body of flesh, because of the new nature imparted at the receiving of salvation.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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wparr
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Question: ! ???
DOES ONE HAVE TO SIN EVERY DAY?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
LOVE your brother barry
Well since whatever is not of faith is sin, you would just have to first continually deny self and then walk in the power of and in total submission / obedience to The Holy Spirit constantly from the moment you awake till Yahweh tells you to got sleep.
Can it be done for a day? Sure, without a doubt, but I will step out and say FEWER ever accomplish this than are willing to admit.
We operate in the flesh (at minimum depending upon our own power and abilities - SIN) much much more than most of us Christians are willing to admit, acknowledge or even examine.
I confess I walk in the flesh much more than I walk in The Spirit, and I'm not pleased with that.
But can you imagine what The Body would be like if we started STRIVING to walk in The Spirit day-by-day, and TRULY encouraged and assisted one another to do so also?
WOW talk about impact.
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Good NewsforAll
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posted
We live in a fallen world. We may be tempted to sin every day, but that doesn't mean we fall into its trap.
If someone cuts you off in traffic, you may be tempted to yell out a few choice words. If you 'lose it' you are sinning. If you cast down angry emotions, you are not sinning.
We will never be perfect, but we have to strive every day to be perfected until we receive our glorified bodies the moment we reach the other side. That doesn't mean we won't trip once in awhile, but it does mean that we have to quickly ask for forgiveness and get back on track again.
Thess 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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barrykind
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posted
The above question assumes that every one knows what sin is :
Its breaking the Torah; YaHWeH's Holy Law.
[Let us remember that being Born from above; the Laws are written on our hearts]
(I'll hold comments on the afore mentioned question until i hear from some of you. )
love your
Brother barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
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posted
Question: ! ???
DOES ONE HAVE TO SIN EVERY DAY?
LOVE your brother barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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