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Author
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Topic: While we were debating the finer points of Christianity....
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silas lane
Community Member
Member # 6626
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posted
Brothers and Sisters in Christ, I praise our Lord and Savior in Jesus Christ, I also pray, the peace in your hearts will not diminish by my words. Over 22 years ago I lived in the world, fully a hardcore drunk, as many drugs as I could handle, free sex was just that, I smoked like fire and cussing was the acceptable language. I knew in my heart that I had ruined and wasted my entire adult life. Suicide had crossed my mind, yet it just did'nt seem to make any more sense then my already wasted life. Desperate I began to search for God. In the least place in all of Heaven, I will lift my all, to Him with eternal praise. For now I know His Holy Word is absolute truth. From His book Ephesians 2: 8, I am saved by Grace, Glorious. Yet even in that, He gave me the childlike faith to receive His all, through His Holy Son Jesus Christ my LORD. Ephesians 2 : 8,9. For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves; it is God's gift-9, not from works, so that no man can boast.AMEN Our gracious saving God Creator has made it very clear to me that the grace I needed to be eternally saved, would come after the faith He had prepared for me, and that also, is one of His countless gifts. I realize we all have our own story, And all I am saying is this. March 4th 1985 as I was coming down fom a three day high. I began reading His Word alone in my apt. I can't say where I was reading it may have been one of the crucifiction accounts. I had no idea what would happen next. I saw Jesus Christ hanging on a cross, it was overcast in darkness. In that twinkle of an eye, I fully understood why He was there. In my own rights I am worthless and undeserving but I have a Savior and not one thing in all of creation can seperate Him from me. He saved me, and as time went by no one had to tell me He was my Lord. Much time has Passed now, and I still trip, stumble, and fall, yet in His grace I grow. The on going debate concerning who may be, and who may not be, has, is, and wil continue to go on. I can't think of one thing more wonderful than having true fellowship in the presence of Jesus Christ,discussing His Holy Word. Yet to learn truly to love others created in His image is glorious. I'll sum up with this beautiful song verse. HE'S ALIVE AND I'M FORGIVEN
Posts: 10 | From: texas | Registered: Jun 2007
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
quote:
EastBank1980
DO VERSUS DONE
Mat 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Mar 3:35
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
2Th 3:4
And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
Hbr 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Matthew 25…. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
I think the scriptures make it clear there is some doing on the part of the beleiver.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Amen Rogg,
EastBank1980 , Bill Hybels is bas news, he is part of the promoter of easy beleivism...
The Church Growth Movement & Purpose Driven Church VERSUS The Bible
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/chart/index.html
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi again Eden,
I just read Roggs post and it brought to mind something that I believe is very important. You have stated several times that confidence in salvation comes through the belief that Jesus died in our place for our sins....and I agree with that, but I believe that is not quite the full picture of our confession. What I mean by that is believing in Jesus as the one who died for my sins is half of our confession. The other half is believing in Jesus as Lord. Now this believing is not just a mental assent, but it is a full acceptance of His Lordship. I dont believe its possible to be saved receiving Jesus as savior, but not as Lord. They are both a necessary means to salvation. I dont mean to assume that you have not confessed Jesus as Lord, but I can only go by what you have said in your post. With love in Christ. Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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IAAFOTL
Advanced Member
Member # 6414
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posted
Amen Rogg, excellent post!
quote:
Originally posted by Rogg:
Yes, what Jesus did was finished at the cross, now it is up to us to make it manifest in our lives.
Jesus is the example we must go by, we need to start doing what he did.
Start being like he was, imitating him.
We don't do works because we think thats what we we need to do, we do works because we believe.
That we believe it pleases the Lord, that we believe that he loves us, and we love him by being obedient to his word.
That we believe the power that created this immense universe and everything in it lives in us.
What enormous power and might!
We believe that we can do the works that Jesus did.
That we believe in his supernatural power, to draw those he is calling to him.
To heal the sick.
TO bring down strongholds, so his Kingdom can advance through a great harvest of souls.
We need to believe that we can walk as Jesus walked, that we can do the things Jesus did.
We have to quit thinking that the power of the Holy Spirit stopped, when the last Apostle died.
The Lord is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
Where are the Apostles of today?
Where are those that heal the sick?
Where are those that can fill an auditorium, not from the promise of prosperity, but from the awesome power and majesty of the Holy Spirit, God?
Nobody wants to believe it, nobody even cares to try.
The Holy Spirit gives us gifts, it is not something we claim, because it is not ours to claim, they are gifts.
But we have to BELIEVE it.
We have to believe the Lord wants to use us in a greater way than going to church, being nice to people and handing out tracts.
If you have ever heard of the expression, "taking a leap of faith"
Then you know what I'm talking about.
Believe that our God is a supernatural and mighty God.
Not a book with words.
Not an unseen force, way beyond the blue.
If you are saved and you have been Baptized in the Holy Spirit then you have the power that created the whole universe INSIDE YOU.
Please believe this people, he is as close as your heart, and he wants to work through you just like he did with the Apostles.
Read the book of Acts and SEE what we are capable of by His Spirit.
Then believe it and walk in it.
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Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
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My screen name stands for "I am a Friend of The Lord's"
Posts: 64 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2007
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Rogg
Advanced Member
Member # 5394
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by EastBank1980:
I am reading a book by Bill Hybels tited -- Just Walk Across The Room ---
In this book he has a description of Religion and Christianity.
DO VERSUS DONE
Tell those who are on the Earning-Grace Plan that religion is spelled D-O. At the end of the day, it's all about whether you do enough right things to earn God's good graces, the thinking goes, you have to do this and do that and strive and sacrifice and clean up your act and make all sorts of promises.
Christianity, on the other hand, say to people, is spelled D-O-N-E. The Bible says that what Christ did on the cross is enough. He did what you could never do--he uniquely satisfied God's requirements for a perfect sacrifice to take care of our past, present and future sin.
The work that must occur to pay for sin and grant eternal access to God--it's already been done.
Yes, what Jesus did was finished at the cross, now it is up to us to make it manifest in our lives.
Jesus is the example we must go by, we need to start doing what he did.
Start being like he was, imitating him.
We don't do works because we think thats what we we need to do, we do works because we believe.
That we believe it pleases the Lord, that we believe that he loves us, and we love him by being obedient to his word.
That we believe the power that created this immense universe and everything in it lives in us.
What enormous power and might!
We believe that we can do the works that Jesus did.
That we believe in his supernatural power, to draw those he is calling to him.
To heal the sick.
TO bring down strongholds, so his Kingdom can advance through a great harvest of souls.
We need to believe that we can walk as Jesus walked, that we can do the things Jesus did.
We have to quit thinking that the power of the Holy Spirit stopped, when the last Apostle died.
The Lord is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
Where are the Apostles of today?
Where are those that heal the sick?
Where are those that can fill an auditorium, not from the promise of prosperity, but from the awesome power and majesty of the Holy Spirit, God?
Nobody wants to believe it, nobody even cares to try.
The Holy Spirit gives us gifts, it is not something we claim, because it is not ours to claim, they are gifts.
But we have to BELIEVE it.
We have to believe the Lord wants to use us in a greater way than going to church, being nice to people and handing out tracts.
If you have ever heard of the expression, "taking a leap of faith"
Then you know what I'm talking about.
Believe that our God is a supernatural and mighty God.
Not a book with words.
Not an unseen force, way beyond the blue.
If you are saved and you have been Baptized in the Holy Spirit then you have the power that created the whole universe INSIDE YOU.
Please believe this people, he is as close as your heart, and he wants to work through you just like he did with the Apostles.
Read the book of Acts and SEE what we are capable of by His Spirit.
Then believe it and walk in it.
Posts: 83 | From: St. Louis MO | Registered: Jan 2006
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EastBank1980
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Member # 6599
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posted
I am reading a book by Bill Hybels tited -- Just Walk Across The Room ---
In this book he has a description of Religion and Christianity.
DO VERSUS DONE
Tell those who are on the Earning-Grace Plan that religion is spelled D-O. At the end of the day, it's all about whether you do enough right things to earn God's good graces, the thinking goes, you have to do this and do that and strive and sacrifice and clean up your act and make all sorts of promises.
Christianity, on the other hand, say to people, is spelled D-O-N-E. The Bible says that what Christ did on the cross is enough. He did what you could never do--he uniquely satisfied God's requirements for a perfect sacrifice to take care of our past, present and future sin.
The work that must occur to pay for sin and grant eternal access to God--it's already been done.
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http://www.biblecenterchurch.com/
Posts: 3 | From: South Charleston, WV | Registered: Jun 2007
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
I agree,
Bless you Eden,
I am glad it is His work in me that saves and nothing I can do but abide (rest) in Him.
Abiding in Him is my life.
Abiding in Him produce the fruit He desires.
But my part is yielding, this is the part some want to say does not exist, but I am old enough in the Lord to know it is possible to quit responding to the voice of Yahweh, to quit abiding in the vine.
and when this happen the very source of life itself begins to be cut off.
No life can continue very long cut off from the source.
But that is what those that teach eternal salvation are trying to teach.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Hi, becauseHElives. You said:
"Eden, I really like your thoughts, there was a time a few years back I believe exactly like you do.
But consider what use is a free gift that does nothing."
Eden here:
When a person believes and accepts that Jesus died in their place, as long as that person continues to actively believe that Jesus died for them while he or she lives on earth, in those people the free gift of salvation will also blossom out into gifts of the Spirit, which is the realm of rewards, not of salvation.
Salvation is a free gift, rewards are not.
But I am not sure what will happen to a person who at one point in their life believes that Jesus died for their sins, but afterwards for years on end never mentions it again to himself or a friend and never thinks about it really again.
Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
I do think that Jesus can and will TAKE BACK such a person's salvation, eventhough it was a free gift to GET, when the Lord sees that a person was a hypocrite:
Matthew 24:51
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 7:6
He answered and said to them, Well has Isaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honours me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Doing nothing for the Lord after the first faith for salvation may result in salvation be taken back and the person being considered a hypocrite.
On the other hand, 1 Corinthians 3 says:
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Is believing just once enough for salvation or does there have to be a "continuous believing" to the end to receive salvation?
And if, after believing one never reads the Word or never listens to the now-available Holy Spirit and never, as it were, "works in the vineyard of the LORD", is such a person then considered a hypocrite and his salvation can and will be taken away, as he is sent back to the hypocrites?
It is a difficult Topic. I personally think "actively believe to the end", but if a person never does nothing after first believing, it will be considered not-believing.
With love,
Eden
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Eden
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posted
Hi, oneinchrist. I also agree with you. If someone is genuinely listening to the Holy Spirit and reading or listening on tape or DVD to the Word of God, such a person will also manifest more love than they had before.
I just did not want to make love a requirement for salvation which is a free gift just by BELIEVING that Jesus died in my place for my sins.
But for those who go on from there and also help the Father in the work of salvation, yes, I think that love will also follow their faith because the Holy Spirit is loving and gentle and kind and helpful.
Have a blessed day, oneinchrist,
Eden
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Eden, I really like your thoughts, there was a time a few years back I believe exactly like you do.
But consider what use is a free gift that does nothing.
When child is given a gift, do they put it in the closet and go around telling everyone, my daddy gave me a wonderful gift, I did not doing anything to get it . he just gave it to me because he loves me/
Except you become as a little children!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi again Eden,
I see what you are saying, but I would like to add that if love is not present in our lives we do not have genuineness in what we say we continue to believe in. The reason why I said that faith without love is nothing is because you made reference to people who are in need of help, and then stated that some christians just sit around and debate in the midst of the crisis. Im sorry that I dont know how to post quotes, so I am rewording some of what you seem to have implied. Do I say that our response to God saves us and that it rejects the free gift? No, I give honor to God in laying the foundation for our salvation, which is through Jesus Christ and His Words. The gift is free in the sense that there is no price tag to receive it, but its at the cost is discipleship...which includes our loyalty to the Lord Jesus and His conditions of being a follower of His. Thank you for your reply. With love in Christ. Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Hi, becauseHElives. You said:
"In this way I show understanding that there is not only an entrance to eternal life (Yeshua) but a narrow path of separation (holiness, without which no soul shall see the Father after I enter).
Eden here:
Anyone who listens to the Holy Spirit that is grafted in his spirit will find himself or herself more separated from the world. They begin to long for the things of the LORD and long less for the pleasures of this world.
But that has to do with rewards, not with salvation. Salvation is a free gift to all who believe that Jesus died in place of them.
Now they may only get salvation and be the least in the kingdom of heaven, while others also get rewards in the kingdom of heaven for how well they did with the Holy Spirit.
But becauseHElives, I think you have a tendency to mix what is required for salvation (only believe in Jesus as my substitute) and rewards (separation from the world AFTER the free gift of eternal life).
"For it shall come to pass that whosover BELIEVES ON HIM shall NOT PERISH but have everlasting life." Salvation is free, rewards after salvation are earned by obediently listening to what the Holy Spirit and the Word of God are telling our old minds and as we renew our minds (all in the realm of rewards only).
Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and [b]My reward is with M, to give to every man according as his work shall be.
UI think this is being said to ALREADY SAVED persons who BELIEVE in Jesus dying on their behalf, and this is NOT being said to UNbelievers.
Reward is only for believers who are saved by continous, daily believing until death or rapture comes.
With love,
Eden
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Hi, oneinchrist. You said:
"Hi Eden,
I agree that faith without love is nothing."
Eden here:
I would instead think that faith without continuous believing is nothing.
If love follows from that, and it should, that is great. But faith is continuous believing and has nothing to do with love, although someone who has believing faith each day also with find God's love close at hand.
with love to you, oneinchrist,
Eden
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
catseye
![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif) good to have you here, it is true ….
I didn't go looking for Yahweh the Heavenly Father, the Heavenly Father sent out the Holy Spirit looking for whosoever will.
But it is my response to His loving call, His conviction of my sin, my turning away from sin in true repentance, no longer loving those things that Yahweh hates, no longer partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but totally as a new born child trusting my loving dad’s instructions to lead me on the path of holiness.
This is the salvation that Yeshua died to purchase, a freedom from the sin nature, so man can again fellowship with creator as a loving Dad.
In this way I show understanding that there is not only an entrance to eternal life (Yeshua) but a narrow path of separation (holiness, without which no soul shall see the Father after I enter.
This is believing that produces faith as in Hebrews 11 (now faith is) , this is believing.
Anything else is mental assent.
quote:
catseye
God did it all and I agree with it! I know it now but I hope to know it more by tonight! I'm always growing in insight and in the knowledge of Him.
Grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
I think this speaks true of the heart of a true Christian.
Just as a natural child never stops learning till natural death, neither does the child of Yahweh, until mortality put on immortality.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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catseye
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Member # 6590
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posted
I didn't go looking for God---"Daddy" came looking for me! I can't save myself. All I can do is align myself with what God has already provided through the work of Christ.
I'm not sure that debates will ever cease and we are told in the bible that we will always have the "poor" with us.
Many people feel that they have a special incite into the things of God and they get pushy about it. Some fear the masses will be lost so they push to steer them to their way of thinking. Others feel threatened by any belief that is not like their own.
I thank my God in heaven that He looks upon me and my (sometimes fighting) brothers and sisters and what He sees is the perfect work of Christ.
Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that "anything goes" or that it doesn't matter what you believe. It's just that we as people who only know in part in this world will always have disagreements about what to do or not do.
God did it all and I agree with it! I know it now but I hope to know it more by tonight! I'm always growing in incite and in the knowledge of Him.
Grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
Catseye
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All things considered-my favorite people are cats...
Posts: 4 | From: Western Maryland USA | Registered: Jun 2007
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Eden,
I agree that faith without love is nothing.
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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posted
While we were debating the finer points of Christianity, there were, and still are, millions of mostly women and children, but also of men, who are working in slavery-like conditions and servitude at US$1 per day, or at US$31 per month.
While we are debating these finer points of Christianity from the Bible, millions of these people live on just US$1 a day, working 16 hours or 20 hours a day, and 7 days a week, being abused by their Bharaini "Sir" and "Madam" and "by their children".
We USA bornagain Christians for instance debate the finer intracicies of Christianity like, "once-saved, always-saved" or "not saved unless one continues to consciously believe that Jesus died for our sins".
And we debate whether Jesus's work was complete in itself or whether we need to add something ourselves in addition to believing that Jesus died on our behalf, like "be holy even as God is holy." Do we need to do something BESIDES BELIEVING in order to earn eternal life like Jesus had, or is eternal life free to ALL WHO BELIEVE ONLY?
Is salvation a free gift, or is it not a free gift? I think salvation is a free gift. And if salvation is a free gift, how come I have to do some work to receive it, as some bornagain Christians claim, saying that we need to MAKE BEHAVIOR CHANGES before we can receive that Jesus died on our behalf and that eternal life thru Jesus dying on my behalf is a free gift from God. And that therefore Jesus said, "It is finished".
Lucifer Satan the Accuser would now like nothing better than to tell us that, "Well, yeah, but you do have to do certain things in order to receive or achieve this salvation, okay? It is NOT for free".
But that notion is completely negated by the following:
Romans 5:16
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the FREE GIFT is of many offences unto justification.
Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace which is by one man, Jesus Christ, has abounded unto many.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one man came the free gift upon all men unto justification of life.
Hello, NOWHERE does it say above that sinful humans need to DO SOMETHING to acquire ETERNAL LIFE like Jesus had while on earth. We sinful people DO NOT NEED TO, NOR CAN WE, add to what only Jesus can do and what Jesus has done for us.
To say that we need to ADD SOMETHING TO THE FREE GIFT of eternal life, is akin to blasphemy and teaching counter to what the Spirit of God teaches, nanemly that eternal life is a free gift of God to all who believe that:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me,
that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Where is work on our part in ANY of this? I don't see it? Do you? Please explain...
Well, actually I do know of the one workwhich is required of a bornagain believer in the exchange work of Jesus, and that work is that I have to "keep on actively and consciously keep on believing every day in this Jesus exchange for me.
I do think that we can lose this salvation if we STOP BELIEIVING that Jesus could possibly be my exchange for my sins:
Mark 13:13
And you shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake: but he who shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
If we stop actively and consciously believing in this exchange by Jesus for our sins, then we fall back again under the law of Moses, and are responsible for our own sins unto death.
ONLY BELIEVING IN IT is the ONLY WORK that we have to do for the LORD God to receive the free gift of eternal life thru Jesus dying for my sins. I have to do nothing more than CONTINUE TO BELIEVE UNTIL I DIE that Jesus is died on my behalf, and if I die still believing that, I WILL RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE LIKE JESUS HAD:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me,
that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The only WORK that I see we need to do on our part is that we must CONTINUOUSLY BELIEVE in what God said was done for us in Jesus.
Where do you see in this that we need to do anything MORE, like behavior-wise, to be saved? I don't see it in there? Do you? Please explain yorself...
hopefully with love,
Eden
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