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Topic: What government is he talking about?
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
Romans 13, I think it is primarily speaking of Church Government, but also speaks of civil government.
Acts 5 ….. is some pretty severe punishment, the Sword of Yahweh can be swift and deadly. We the members of the body need to pray for the restoration of this kind of reality to the Church. Sloppy Grace would disappear.
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
And kept back [part] of the price, his wife also being privy [to it], and brought a certain part, and laid [it] at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried [him] out, and buried [him]. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband. And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
I was originally talking about romans 13. The punishment part of my point was coming from this verse.
Romans 13:4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
Bearing the sword I am assuming would be doing harm to another. This is the type of punishment I am referring to as it is what is referred to in the verse. In your verse, it is referring to social austrisism, which is not doing harm to another, but refusing to associate. This thread is talking about government. Government harms as punishment. I don't think christians should be harming others. I don't think there are many verses that support a believer harming another person.
Our weapons are spiritual because we fight against a spiritual enemy. And our sword is spiritual. Just as it says:
quote:
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God...
Spiritual, yes, but no less a real sword.
And the sword causes harm. But not harm to the flesh:
quote:
Hbr 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Being cast out of the covering of the Lord may invite Satan to destroy the flesh of the man; which is to say he, Satan, may have his way with the man and his carnal and sinful life. Satan does this work, it seems, as in this verse:
quote:
"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
Consider yourself fortunate not to have received such wrath. I have seen it. In fact I encouraged it among the saints for one individual worthy of it. Satan certainly had his way with the man. And the man was broken as his "flesh" was destroyed.
Later, by the grace of God, the man was restored.
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This thread is talking about government.
Yes. God's government
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Government harms as punishment.
Are such things true of God's government?
I know, such things seem to be of a by-gone era. Puritanical even. They are Biblical and fitting for the church: yesterday and today. Our Lord has not changed. Nor have His ways.
Aaron
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becauseHElives
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quote:
Brian...
I don't think christians should be harming others. I don't think there are many verses that support a believer harming another person.
Amen
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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BrianGrass1234
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Again, you're imposing your own ideas of what is a proper "punishment". Be careful not to do this.
Here is another example:
1Corithians 5:1-5 "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Aaron
I was originally talking about romans 13. The punishment part of my point was coming from this verse.
Romans 13:4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
Bearing the sword I am assuming would be doing harm to another. This is the type of punishment I am referring to as it is what is referred to in the verse. In your verse, it is referring to social austrisism, which is not doing harm to another, but refusing to associate. This thread is talking about government. Government harms as punishment. I don't think christians should be harming others. I don't think there are many verses that support a believer harming another person.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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Aaron
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Again, you're imposing your own ideas of what is a proper "punishment". Be careful not to do this.
Here is another example:
1Corithians 5:1-5 "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Aaron
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BrianGrass1234
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
Punishment through violence? Could you please point some out, I'm interested.
Gal 2:11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.
Be careful not to truncate the meaning of violence or wrath to mean "physical harm only".
Aaron
Pointing out how someone is in the wrong is not punishment. Paul didn't pull out the sword and force Peter into a cage.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
Punishment through violence? Could you please point some out, I'm interested.
Gal 2:11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.
Be careful not to truncate the meaning of violence or wrath to mean "physical harm only".
Aaron
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BrianGrass1234
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
And if this is referring to church authority, I don't think christians should be carrying out judgment and punishment to others as are judgment is imperfect.
Dear brother, you can find such examples in the scriptures from Acts through Revelation, can you not? Instances of rulership and judgement and discipline, etc. are all in there and are all performed by a saints or saints. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Aaron
Punishment through violence? Could you please point some out, I'm interested.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
And if this is referring to church authority, I don't think christians should be carrying out judgment and punishment to others as are judgment is imperfect.
Dear brother, you can find such examples in the scriptures from Acts through Revelation, can you not? Instances of rulership and judgement and discipline, etc. are all in there and are all performed by a saints or saints.
Aaron
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Wetshoes:
Aaron – isn’t it exciting to see something for the first time!
You bet!
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If you notice, the Lord’s position as the head of his government is not looming over it or even Lording over it! He is supporting it! To say it another way – his government is on his shoulders, not at his feet! Yet – He is God and He is in charge! We think of ruling and authority in very humanistic terms but the paradigm of the Church is very different. To be great one becomes the least! The leaders are those who serve and unlike the humanistic idea of rising to the top and obtaining recognition, the mature in the Lord diminish to become the servant of all! Paul who began his ministry defending his apostleship matured to the point of seeing himself as least among the brethren!
You took the words right out of my heart! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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Another point worth considering is that unlike a kingdom – a government is not defined by geographic or any other border! Essentially – a government is more defined by its responsibility than it is authority.
Amen! It is quite obvious (to me) that the form of governance in this country is, from all other earthly forms, the least like our Lord's form of governance in the Kingdom. The idea of a "king" is overshadowed by our embrace of democracy. In my opinion, this is one of the main reasons the church in the U.S. is so susceptible to heresy.
Bless you,
Aaron
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Wetshoes
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Aaron – isn’t it exciting to see something for the first time! While you are studying these verses in Isaiah I wonder if I could add a couple of thoughts to consider along with your study?
If you notice, the Lord’s position as the head of his government is not looming over it or even Lording over it! He is supporting it! To say it another way – his government is on his shoulders, not at his feet! Yet – He is God and He is in charge! We think of ruling and authority in very humanistic terms but the paradigm of the Church is very different. To be great one becomes the least! The leaders are those who serve and unlike the humanistic idea of rising to the top and obtaining recognition, the mature in the Lord diminish to become the servant of all! Paul who began his ministry defending his apostleship matured to the point of seeing himself as least among the brethren!
It would do one well to remember the disciples who were posturing for position of authority as to one sitting on the Lord’s left and the other on His right - where the Lord responded …
Mat 20:21 And He said to her, "What do you want?" She says to Him, "Say [or, Command] that these, my two sons, shall sit one at Your right [hand] and one at Your left in Your kingdom."
Mat 20:22 But answering, Jesus said, "You* do not know what you* are asking. Are you* able to drink the cup which _I_ am about to be drinking, or to be baptized [with] the baptism which _I_ am baptized?" They say to him, "We are able."
Mat 20:23 And He says to them, "Indeed, My cup you* will drink, and the baptism which _I_ am baptized [with], you* will be baptized. But to sit at My right [hand] and at My left is not Mine to give, _but_ [it is for those] for whom it has been prepared by My Father."
Another point worth considering is that unlike a kingdom – a government is not defined by geographic or any other border! Essentially – a government is more defined by its responsibility than it is authority.
Love john
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WoodStoneSteel@hotmail.com
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BrianGrass1234
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The Isaiah scripture is referring to the Christ's rule. Romans 13 is unclear. To say that all that claim authority (in the church or secular) have been granted authority from God himself doesn't jive. In the OT
Hosea 8:4 They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval.
There you go, authority not from God. So then we must somehow be able to verify what authority is of God. It does say in Romans 13 that this authority does not terror the good and is minister of good. So if the person with authority is not good I guess this authority is not of God. I don't really know.
Also since we are under the new covenant and our judgment will come at the end of this age, why would he need men to carry out judgment against evil? And if this is referring to church authority, I don't think christians should be carrying out judgment and punishment to others as are judgment is imperfect.
Romans 13 is a verse I really don't get.
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
Do you then agree that free will offering and not imposed taxes run Church establishments? The word used in Rom 13 is not “free will offering” but “taxes,” there is a difference. When I pay my income tax I cant pay what I feel like giving, I’m billed for a figure based on my income. When it comes to supporting the Church establishment, as you say nothing is imposed. So isn’t “taxes” in Rom 13 referring to taxes imposed by the civil authorities?
When I think of impose I think of forced compliance. Even though the phoros is not imposed it is still within the boundary of the saints' responsibilities. To carry it further: it is our Lord's will that the leaders be compensated (although not necessarily with money) and a saint with a godly heart does not have free will in this case if he chooses to remain obedient.
For consideration: how else would a pastor be compensated apart from the institutional arrangement that is common today? If he is a pastor of ten or so saints, and the saints meet in homes, then how will he receive compensation if there is no contract for services rendered?
Institutionally, we trust that his salary is taken from the collection but what if there is no salary agreement, no bill, or no business agreement for his "services"? Is his service worthy of less compensation than that of the man from seminary in the building down the street? I think not.
Aaron
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
There's no imposing of anything, here. Just as righteousness is not imposed on anyone payment for the work of the leaders is also not imposed.
Do you then agree that free will offering and not imposed taxes run Church establishments? The word used in Rom 13 is not “free will offering” but “taxes,” there is a difference. When I pay my income tax I cant pay what I feel like giving, I’m billed for a figure based on my income. When it comes to supporting the Church establishment, as you say nothing is imposed. So isn’t “taxes” in Rom 13 referring to taxes imposed by the civil authorities?
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Curiously you used the term "Church establishments". Is this different than a "church"? If not then why add "establishment" on the end?
Church is the spiritual invisible Church that Christ is building and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Church establishment is the visible establishment run by elders, teachers, pastors, evangelist, bishops, apostles, prophets and perhaps others that you spoke about in your OP.
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Aaron, as for this phrase:
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
That Isaiah “government” probably refers mostly to the government of the King of kings, when the Lord Jesus comes the second time and rules the earth from Jerusalem as King of kings and Lord of lords.
Judging from the rest of the words in this Isaiah 9:6 quote, “The mightjy God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace,” these are all Titles that Jesus will have once He rules as King of kings; these are millennial Titles, including “the government shall be upon His shoulder”, Amen?
with love,
Eden
No, no "Amen". Sorry. The Kingdom of Heaven is now. We are kings and priests now and we are ministers of His reign now. Certainly if one does not see this then recognizing His government is impossible.
Aaron
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
I would like you to clarify your interpretation of taxes being imposed in the new Testament Church to pay elders, teachers, pastors, evangelist, bishops, apostles and prophets. Who imposes the taxes?
My understanding is that free will offerings runs Church establishments, but civil authorities impose taxes to run the country.
There's no imposing of anything, here. Just as righteousness is not imposed on anyone payment for the work of the leaders is also not imposed.
Curiously you used the term "Church establishments". Is this different than a "church"? If not then why add "establishment" on the end?
Aaron
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Aaron. You said something like:
"Ruling over someone should not be taken lightly."
Eden here:
On the other hand, we all rule over each other and we all are ruled over by others. Some rule over others with a kind word which turns away wrath, while others rule over others with the gun which initiates wrath.
Not only those in government, but everybody will have do answer for the things done in their lives.
Romans 14:12
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
A government official is no different. I don’t think that just because someone is now an elected government official that that official is now MORE responsible for what he or she does because the government official can STILL only be who he or she is, and no more.
So just because someone becomes a government official, does that mean that God gives them special graces to govern over MANY, but if he or she had remained a non-government individual there were have been NO GRACE for the many?
And, if there is GRACE FOR THE MANY, how can the government official do wrong?
love,
Eden
My reference was to the government of Heaven not of this world. Those who are in leadership in the church are not elected by men but by God.
Here it is in Hebrews 13:17 "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."
Aaron
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
This tends to be the part that throws a lot of people toward believing this is speaking about a worldly government: they can't imagine us paying anything to a church leader save for his cut of the tithe (and the tithe does not apply any more...but no more on that). The continued practice of the Mosaic law is one reason the saints cannot discern the truth of scripture.
This part of scripture means the following: if anyone rules over you pay them for their time. This would include elders, teachers, pastors, evangelist, bishops, apostles, prophets and perhaps others.
Hi Aaron,
I would like you to clarify your interpretation of taxes being imposed in the new Testament Church to pay elders, teachers, pastors, evangelist, bishops, apostles and prophets. Who imposes the taxes?
My understanding is that free will offerings runs Church establishments, but civil authorities impose taxes to run the country.
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Eden
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Hi, Aaron, as for this phrase:
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
That Isaiah “government” probably refers mostly to the government of the King of kings, when the Lord Jesus comes the second time and rules the earth from Jerusalem as King of kings and Lord of lords.
Judging from the rest of the words in this Isaiah 9:6 quote, “The mightjy God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace,” these are all Titles that Jesus will have once He rules as King of kings; these are millennial Titles, including “the government shall be upon His shoulder”, Amen?
with love,
Eden
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Eden
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Hi, Aaron. You said something like:
"Ruling over someone should not be taken lightly."
Eden here:
On the other hand, we all rule over each other and we all are ruled over by others. Some rule over others with a kind word which turns away wrath, while others rule over others with the gun which initiates wrath.
Not only those in government, but everybody will have do answer for the things done in their lives.
Romans 14:12
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
A government official is no different. I don’t think that just because someone is now an elected government official that that official is now MORE responsible for what he or she does because the government official can STILL only be who he or she is, and no more.
So just because someone becomes a government official, does that mean that God gives them special graces to govern over MANY, but if he or she had remained a non-government individual there were have been NO GRACE for the many?
And, if there is GRACE FOR THE MANY, how can the government official do wrong?
love,
Eden
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Aaron
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The following passage of scripture is used to promote the idea that we, as Christians, are to submit to worldly governing powers. Knowing a bit of history of our country and others this conclusion has always seemed counter-intuitive for some of the most virulent persecution of Christians arose from within the halls of said governing bodies. In my mind God can not say to support something that is designed to destroy the power of God; a house divided against itself cannot stand. And certainly God does not promote division among the godly.
For me, the reason I did not understand this passage of scripture was because of my limited understanding about what a government actually was. In my mind I was only able to recognize one type of government: one that derived its power from the people. It wasn't until later that I could see that another type of government existed apart from the those of the world.
It was around December 25th a few years ago when someone was reading the typical "Christmas scripture" aloud. This one:
quote:
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
And a saw a word in there for the first time. Now, it had always been in there but I had not taken notice of it until that moment: "government". There it was, two times in fact, in a scripture that gets a lot of traffic around the end of December. A scripture that, until that time, I thought dealt only with salvation and grace.
So, I realized that God has a government. As I studied the matter I discovered that it is mentioned and examined quite a lot through scripture especially in the New Testament. Exciting stuff, for me any way.
I then saw that certain gifts are given for governance in the church (this is spoken of in Ephesians 4 and elsewhere). I began to see God's established order for the church; how she is to function, what the gifts are supposed to support, and how we are IN FACT the Body of our Lord and are expected to run like a healthy organism: alive with The Life.
There would be too much to go into at this point. What I'd like to do is examine this next passage of scripture in light of the reality that God has a government, too. And I think you will see, if you will receive it, that the government mentioned cannot be any government of man but is, in fact, the government of God.
The scripture (Romans 13:1-7):
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
Now let's break it down:
quote:
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Christ grants gifts to men to perform functions in His Body. Some gifts are given for the sake of establishing order and authority among the saints. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers examples of these gifts. Elder-ship is also granted to certain pastors and bishops, elders who choose to govern over a larger locale, are other examples. These saints bear the power and authority given by God to rule over the saints. God appoints these saints, some by the laying on of hands, their position. Seminary does not appoint these men nor do the votes of the saints. These are God gifted, God appointed men who rule over the saints God has permitted them to rule over.
quote:
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
Some types of rulers must give an account, to the Lord, of the persons under them. This is serious business and one of the reasons why we "should not be hasty to lay on hands". But notice that the authority mentioned is administrating the ordinance of God. These are saints loyal to Christ the Lord not heathens. So, if we resist these rulers who have been appointed by the Lord we can see plainly why judgement would be invited.
quote:
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
Rulers of the earth serve either the people or themselves and have little care for the matters of God. Even if a Christian is elected through the U.S. form of government they are entitled to have the matters of the people in the forefront of their mind...our system of government demands it. There is no provision for the man to put the matters of the Lord first.
The words "he is God's minister" is not an accident. This confirms that such a man is not a worldly man but one appointed by the Lord. He specifically rules according to how the Lord leads him.
quote:
5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.
We are subject to our Lord and His appointed rulers; Not to simply avoid punishment but to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord.
quote:
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
This tends to be the part that throws a lot of people toward believing this is speaking about a worldly government: they can't imagine us paying anything to a church leader save for his cut of the tithe (and the tithe does not apply any more...but no more on that). The continued practice of the Mosaic law is one reason the saints cannot discern the truth of scripture.
This part of scripture means the following: if anyone rules over you pay them for their time. This would include elders, teachers, pastors, evangelist, bishops, apostles, prophets and perhaps others.
Ruling over someone is not taken lightly. First the person must have the power and authority from God to rule, second, the person must be confirmed as one's leader: perhaps for just a short time perhaps until death. And remember: anyone who rules over another will give an account to the Lord of the person's life.
I have to go now. If you have issues with this please ask clarifying questions first. Chances are I was simply too brief because of time.
Aaron
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