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Author
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Topic: Christians and Pacifism
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Brian good point,
We should give our lives to protect the innocent, I have heard in cities like New York people will actually walk by and watch a rape/murder or some such in progress and not do anything to stop it.
Like I said about the man beating his wife, I wasn’t sure how I was going to deal with the situation but I knew I could not just leave.
I think the biggest problem is we don’t see how Big our God is.
The scriptures say….
How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert! Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. They remembered not his hand, nor the day when he delivered them from the enemy.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2078;&version=9;
If we could just get it in our hearts, Yahweh is great and greatly to be praised….
No problem is too big or small He does not want us to rely on Him for the answer.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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BrianGrass1234
Advanced Member
Member # 5845
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posted
What I was trying to say, and appears to have been explained poorly, is that I struggle with total pacifism.
I understand that we are to love our enemies, repay evil with kindness, give the thief what they want to steal from us and do what we are forced to do above and beyond. All these principles require us to not use force against anyone. But then when I read 1 Corinthians 13 were it says love always protects, and I just wonder if in protecting one person I'm supposed to be loving, I may have to harm another person I'm supposed to be loving. Thats my only hang up.
The other part of my post was talking about christians who not only support violence in defense of others (questionable), in self defense (selfish and wrong, but on a worldly level morally justified) but also the initiation of violence against others. This is what I cannot understand. How anyone, non-christian but especially a christian, support the initiation of violence against another is beyond me.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
quote:
1. Do you as a bornagain Christian think that a national army is necessary, or not?
Not for me, I am a Citizen of the Kingdom of Yahweh. I pray equally for other countries as I do America. I obey the Laws of America as long as they obey Yahweh. When the Law is against Yahweh I disobey the Law to obey Yahweh.
Case in point, when I got saved it was illegal to home school in Texas, but when our 1st child became of age, my wife and I choose to obey Yahweh instead of man and started home schooling. After many court cases it is now legal to home school but even if the Laws had not changed, I would go to jail before disobeying Yahweh.
Another case in point “immunizations” it is a Law to immunize children but because Yahweh has told me not to immunize, I obey Yahweh.
Each individual must decide whose Kingdom they belong
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2. Presumably you agree that a bunch of bornagain Christians are serving in the U.S. Army?
I don’t presume anyone is a Christian until I see their fruits.
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3. And presumably you agree that a bunch of bornagain Christian soldiers are currently serving in Iraq?
I presume many think they are Christians
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4. So what do you propose these bornagain Christians should do in Iraq when they are targeted, say, with riflefire coming from a house about half-a-mile away?
I propose they therefore take unto them the whole amour of God, that they may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having their loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And their feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
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5. Should the bornagain Christian soldiers just duck but NOT SHOOT because they are bornagain Christians, while the non-Christian soldiers duck, but get quickly ready to shoot back?
If they are born-again Christians, they should walk out unafraid praying for those that are trying to kill them. Saying with those like the Apostles and Martyrs’, kill me but the Christ that lives in me loves you.
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6. Are you proposing that Islamic sharia-type Iraqis will NOT SHOOT at bornagain Christians because God will protect ALL bornagain Christians in Iraq from being shot at?
Not at all, I am saying with The Apostle Paul “to live is Christ, to die is gain”
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7. Would you agree that at least SOME bornagain Christians have BEEN SHOT in Iraq and have DIED in Iraq by roadside IEDs or by Islamic rocketpropelled grenades?
Only Yahweh knows the answer to that question.
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8. Or will God see to that NO bornagain Christian soldiers will never be sent to Iraq?
That not very likely Yahweh has true witnesses everywhere.
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9. Or are you saying that bornagain Christians should all become conscientious objectors and refuse to go fight in Iraq and instead spent 3 years in jail because they are bornagain Christians and bornagain Christians don't fight ever?
If you are a Christian and you find yourself in the Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force or any other branch of service, you should be the best soldier they have ever seen, in every way, but make it known that you will for no reason take the life of another.
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10. What if EVERY person in the USA became a bornagain Christian and all then became conscientious objectors, we would hopefully not need a standing army among ourselves (all being bornagain Christians), but would we still need a standing army to protect ourselves from countries which are NOT Christians and may have hostile, "sharia or death!" type of ideas?
What a glorious wonderful thought, that a whole nation would lay down their lives for others to be saved, just as Stephen was stoned to death and prayer for those killing him.
Oh to be like Yeshua, what a wonderful thought, a whole nation dying for the cause of Yeshua!
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11. So what about September 11, should bornagain Christians do anything in return or "just turn the other cheek until we have no more cheeks to give".in your opinion but “just take it”?
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
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So here is our God of Israel looking down on both of you, on the muslim firing on you and on the bornagain Christian. If one of you must die, who would God rather keep alive, an Allah blasphemer or a bornagain Christian adopted Son by the suffereing cross of Jesus? Who would God rather preserve, becauseHElives?
Yahweh would preserve the one that is not ready to meet Him!
If I die I go straight into the presence of my Savior. (to live is Christ, to die is gain)
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
In answer to Briangrass, becauseHElives said:
“When you draw a bead of a rifle down on a Muslim or a brutish person of any type and pull the trigger you are sending a soul that Yeshua died for to Hell for eternity.”
Eden here:
That’s true, he is going to hell {to gehenna hell, I mean} for eternity, but if you don’t draw a bead on the muslim who is shooting at you just because you ARE a “crusader soldier”, will the bullet NOT penetrate you?
And will the muslim say to himself then, “I have killed a crusader soldier, I better repent and now believe in Jesus?” I don’t think that the Islamic insurgent WILL suddenly think that way.
So here is our God of Israel looking down on both of you, on the muslim firing on you and on the bornagain Christian. If one of you must die, who would God rather keep alive, an Allah blasphemer or a bornagain Christian adopted Son by the suffereing cross of Jesus? Who would God rather preserve, becauseHElives?
Would it not be you in this case? God WANTS you to fire back so that the Islamic (read, Lucifer) insurgent is killed and God’s adopted, bornagain son (you) is still alive on earth, because God has a lifetime of plans and uses for you.
But there is no doubt that a number of bornagain Christians are in Iraq and HAVE died by enemy fire like IEDs and rocketpropelled grenades. The muslim drew a bead on them and the bornagain Christians were killed.
So they should NOT draw a bead of a muslim?
Let me quote you again what you said to Briangrass:
In answer to Briangrass, becauseHElives said:
“When you draw a bead of a rifle down on a Muslim or a brutish person of any type and pull the trigger you are sending a soul that Yeshua died for to Hell for eternity.”
God has sent MANY an unbeliever to gehenna hell over the centuries because ‘their cup of inequity was full.”
“When you draw a bead of a rifle down on a Muslim or a brutish person of any type and pull the trigger you are sending a soul that Yeshua died for to Hell for eternity.”
Well…yeah!?? God sent another one on his way to destruction:
Psalm 49:10
For he seeth that wise men die, likewise the fool and the brutish person perish, and leave their wealth to others.
2 Peter 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Brute persons of Belial are not just taken at the end of the world, they are also taken during their lifetime to their destruction. And often God uses other humans, including bornagain Christians, to accomplish even those kings of Purposes. I think God would often rather keep a Son alive than a non-Son. Our God is a Warrior-God, King of kings and LORD of lords!
With love,
Eden
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Eden
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posted
hi, becauseHElives, you said to Eden:
“Eden, before I start, let me tell you I practice what I preach, since I have been save I have had a gun pointed inches from my face, because of the Gospel. ... This particular instance she got to the phone without him knowing. We arrived and knock on the door, he answered with a 4/10 shotgun. He demanded we leave, I told him we could not. That we had came to help Dorothy (his wife). With him threatening to kill me if I came any farther, gun at my head I and my wife went in. for the next 45 minutes with a gun at my head I told him (Butch LeBlanc) that Yeshua loved him and that Yeshua died to set him free, after 45 minute of very intense witnessing he put down the gun and begin to cry and I was able to lead him to the Lord.”
Eden here: Thanks for sharing that, becauseHElives, and I appreciate the bravery for Christ in you in that event.
But if you would be so kind, would you be willing to asnwer any of the questions I pose in the following scenario?
Here are the scenario questions:
1. Do you as a bornagain Christian think that a national army is necessary, or not?
So let's use the United States Army for our example.
2. Presumably you agree that a bunch of bornagain Christians are serving in the U.S. Army?
3. And presumably you agree that a bunch of bornagain Christian soldiers are currently serving in Iraq?
4. So what do you propose these bornagain Christians should do in Iraq when they are targeted, say, with riflefire coming from a house about half-a-mile away?
5. Should the bornagain Christian soldiers just duck but NOT SHOOT because they are bornagain Christians, while the non-Christian soldiers duck, but get quickly ready to shoot back?
6. Are you proposing that Islamic sharia-type Iraqis will NOT SHOOT at bornagain Christians because God will protect ALL bornagain Christians in Iraq from being shot at?
7. Would you agree that at least SOME bornagain Christians have BEEN SHOT in Iraq and have DIED in Iraq by roadside IEDs or by Islamic rocketpropelled grenades?
8. Or will God see to that NO bornagain Christian soldiers will never be sent to Iraq?
9. Or are you saying that bornagain Christians should all become conscientious objectors and refuse to go fight in Iraq and instead spent 3 years in jail because they are bornagain Christians and bornagain Christians don't fight ever?
10. What if EVERY person in the USA became a bornagain Christian and all then became conscientious objectors, we would hopefully not need a standing army among ourselves (all being bornagain Christians), but would we still need a standing army to protect ourselves from countries which are NOT Christians and may have hostile, "sharia or death!" type of ideas?
11. So what about September 11, hould bornagain Christians do anything in return or "just turn the other cheek until we have no more cheeks to give".in your opinion but “just take it”?
Thanks, becauseHelives or anyone else, for sharing with me because I know the Holy Spirit is in you and thus I might hear something wonderful,
With love,
Eden
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Hey Brian, I don’t understand your point but I definitely want to respect any that I can not convince of my understanding.
My first thought is of Watchman Nee’s account of his Pastor watching his family (wife and 8 children) buried alive by the communist Chinese government and all he had to do was renounce the gospel and their lives would be spared. The pastor began to renounce the Lord when his wife lead out in his favorite hymn and his children (some very young) joined in singing, the Pastor stood raised his hands to heaven, ask the Lord to forgive him and he and Watchman Nee watched as they buried his family alive.
How much more innocent, than a woman and 8 small children?
“Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit”, says the Lord (Zech. 4:6)
Does the Commandment still stand in effect “thou shall not kill” or as some would say “you shall not commit murder”?
I am not condoning evil, but evil just like poverty will be with us till Yeshua returns and sets up His Kingdom on earth. Until then it is my responsibility to pray for all sinners not take it upon myself and become their executioner.
When you draw a bead of a rifle down on a Muslim or a brutish person of any type and pull the trigger you are sending a soul that Yeshua died for to Hell for Eternity.
That can never be justified for the person that is “Christ like” …
Brian help me understand your point of view from any example in the New Testament?
Other wise is it not just humanism?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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BrianGrass1234
Advanced Member
Member # 5845
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posted
I used to believe that I was called to be a pacifist. Not to do any physical harm to another, no matter what the reason. I mean we are to love our enemies, respond to evil with kindness, its pretty obvious to me that doing physical harm to anyone breaks those principles. But then I have to take into account that love also protects. So then how to you deal with that. I mean you can say you need to put yourself in the way, or try to hold the aggressor while the victim can escape, but what if you no the great harm will come to the victim after the aggressor kills you. Would you be justified, in that very rare instance to use violent force to end the threat. I mean to not stop the aggressor that will harm the victim, are we not putting the aggressor before the victim. That just doesn't seem right, but even if you had to harm or even kill the aggressor, it would have to still be done in love for both the aggressor and victim. This is such a hard moral delema to work through that I'm not convinced one way or the other on. I wish it was more clear in the bible.
But what I am convinced of is that we are not to use violence to defend ourselves, or in punishment. Its this understanding that I'm sure of that makes me not understand how christians want to use violence for so many reasons beyond just self defense. I mean using violence for self defense is selfish, but can be morally justified on a worldly level. But I don't get the moral defense of the initiation of violence by worldly morals, but how much more should christians be opposed to this use of violence, yet I see and hear about christians promoting it every day.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Eden, before I start, let me tell you I practice what I preach, since I have been save I have had a gun pointed inches from my face, because of the Gospel. Once when a lady from our church call and ask me and my wife to come help her, her husband was an alcoholic and was very abusive, he had put her in the hospital several times. This particular instance she got to the phone without him knowing. We arrived and knock on the door, he answered with a 4/10 shotgun. He demanded we leave, I told him we could not. That we had came to help Dorothy (his wife). With him threatening to kill me if I came any farther, gun at my head I and my wife went in. for the next 45 minutes with a gun at my head I told him (Butch LeBlanc) that Yeshua loved him and that Yeshua died to set him free, after 45 minute of very intense witnessing he put down the gun and begin to cry and I was able to lead him to the Lord.
There was another time with another individual but I want tell that now….
Eden, as I look to Yeshua as my only example in all things, and as I walk after the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lust of the flesh, I can not for any reason imagine a individual that knows by Yeshua’s salvation he/she is saved and His word declaring forgive as you desire to be forgiven taking the life of anyone for any reason.
Armies fight for kingdoms and governments of this world, the true child of Yahweh is an ambassador of Yahweh’s Eternal Kingdom.
Jhn 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Pacifist or Pacifism can be good words or bad words….
In Yahweh’s Kingdom there is no such thing as what this world calls a pacifist, because the child of Yahweh is commanded to be a soldier, do warfare in this world against principalities and powers of wickedness in high place and for the souls of men/women.
True Faith is warfare,
Matthew 11:12. "From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force."
John himself suffered violence for announcing that the kingdom of Yahweh had come...
Yeshua suffered violence of death for all for the Kingdom….
Stephen suffered violence for the Kingdom…
The Apostle Paul suffered violence for the Kingdom….
Peter, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke…
Do we find any example in the New Testament of one time true believer’s fought back defending their lives?
Rev 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
The scripture declare the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but they are mighty
Are you ready to witness for Yeshua and to suffer violence if necessary for Yahweh’s Kingdom.
"Lord, stir the zeal for your righteousness and for your kingdom. Free your people from complacency and from compromising with the ways of sin and worldliness that we may be wholeheartedly devoted to you and to your kingdom."
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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posted
becauseHElives, would you be so kind as to address this Topic for me, at your convenience? I'm interested to hear in your answers.
Love, Eden
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Eden
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posted
Christians and Pacifism
becauseHElives wrote in the Topic "Forgive them because they don't know what they do" that Eden said in that Topic:
"Pacifism, or allowing oneself to be killed while saying "I love you!" means NOTHING to evil persons when Lucifer-Islam knows that destroying Israel means the Prince willl not be able to rule from Jerusalem."
becauseHElives then answered Eden this way:
Vengence is Mine says Yahweh!
The enemies of Yahweh will try to come against Israel, but woe to them in that day.
Lucifer and all his minions will not stop the Prince of Peace from ruling in Jerusalem!
Those that claim Yeshua as Lord have one task; show Yahweh’s love to a dying world
The Apostle Paul before conversion was the same as any Luciferian, Muslim, Roman Catholic or any other person full of hate to the point of killing in the name of any god.
The Apostle Paul thought he was doing God a service by killing Christians and in a sense I guess he was doing God a service (the God of this world that is).
Yeshua could/can kill all His enemies just by speaking it so.
Yeshua is our only example, He forgave in every circumstance where He was wronged, spat upon, beat, cursed, ridiculed, plucked His bead out and crucified and He cried forgive them Father they know not what they do and all true believers that have and will follow have and will do the same, no exceptions.
Yeshua had/has one message love your enemies, do good to those that seek to do you evil.
Anyone that is Born Again can not take the life of another for any cause.
Eden here:
I find this subject of Christian Pacifism interesting. becauseHElives said above:
“Anyone that is Born Again cannot take the life of another for any cause.
Eden here:
becauseHElives, I take your, “for any cause” to also mean serving in the army, say in Iraq, and shooting people before they shoot you?
Or are you saying that once one is bornagain, no one will shoot at you anymore in Islamic Iraq?
Or are you saying that God will see to it that NO bornagain person will ever get sent to Iraq?
Or are you saying that bornagain Christians should therefore become conscientious objectors and refuse to go to Iraq and instead spent maybe 3 years in jail?
Please explain yourself, becauseHElives.
Hopefully said with love,
Eden
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