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Author Topic: is prayer a requirement for salvation?
Eden
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Hi, David. You said:

“Prayer is NOT a requirement for salvation, but if one is truely save they will pray and pray often. If they don't then they could not be saved as they are not producing the fruit of a saved person. We pray because we know Jesus and that is how we talk to Him. If we love Him we will pray. If we don't we will not.”

Eden here:

Prayer is NOT the only thing we bornagain Christians do, though. There is also a time for shutting up and listening to what the Holy Spirit is already saying to this or that bornagain man or woman’s spirit, for instance.

And there is also trusting quietly waiting for what we have ALREADY PRAYED FOR. And there is studying the Word when we should NOT be praying but STUDYING. There are a lot of Christian activities which do not involve praying.

Jesus indeed said we should NOT PRAY TOO MUCH:

Matthew 6
6 But you, when you pray, enter into your closet, and when you have shut thy door, pray to your Father which is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

I do think that a well-rounded “adult, meat-eating Christian” would be praying, I mean I could not do without praying anymore than I could do without my cell phone.

But like my cell phone, my prayer is NOT always ON and that is much more to our abundant life than prayer alone.

Be blessed,
Eden

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becauseHElives
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Amen David, that's what I said...

quote:
posted April 11, 2007 07:58 AM

Salvation is not attain through prayer, but it sustained through prayer.

If you don’t understand this statement you don’t understand the “Parable of the Sower”

The only source of life known to the child of Yahweh is prayer, it was true for Yeshua and it is true for every true believer.

If this is not true in your life, I prayer you get saved.

I will address "carnal christians" in another thread.

Ray Comfort explain very well what I was trying to say about the “Parable of the Sower”

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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TEXASGRANDMA
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Hubby and I listened to it. Thanks for sharing, David. I agree with Ray, you have to know what you are being saved from, to be saved.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Aaron,
thank you. I thought I had it on my computer but I just had real arcade. I like to play computer games.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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Aaron
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Betty,

You can open it with RealPlayer.

It's a free download here: http://www.download.com/RealPlayer/3000-2139_4-10255189.html

Aaron

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TEXASGRANDMA
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What do you listen to that with? Windows Media won't open it.
Thanks,
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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KnowHim
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Prayer is NOT a requirment for salvation, but if one is truely save they will pray and pray often. If they don't then they could not be saved as they are not producing the fruit of a saved person. We pray because we know Jesus and that is how we talk to Him. If we love Him we will pray. If we don't we will not.

Please read or listing to one of the following about True and False Conversion:

Read:
http://heargoodnews.org/pdf/TrueAndFalseConversion.pdf

Listen:
http://www.heargoodnews.com/hbks/tape08.ram


.

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becauseHElives
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Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer;….

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Yeshua gave us a pattern of salvation in all that is taught about the Temple. When Yeshua came to the temple, the physical temple, the first thing he did was cleanse it, just as He does in the life of every believer.

The Blood cleanses us from all sin, but that is not the end of salvation but only the beginning, every man that hath this hope continues on with Yahweh becoming known as a house of prayer.

If I say I believe and do not the things Yeshua say, I lie and the truth is not in me.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Are you known as a house of prayer?

If you not are you then a temple of Yahweh?

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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becauseHElives
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Yeshua will have the final Word my friend,

I will contiue to pray, Father forgive them they know not what they do.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Aaron you are straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Yeshua said prayer was the life line, not me.

If you can not see that, I will pray for you to really get saved.

I will follow Yeshua’s example, you follow who and what ever you please, if Yeshua needed to pray, I need to pray.

Argue with yourself,

Is Yeshua the author of salvation?

I think He knows better than you.

Show me a person that does not rise early and seek Yahweh in prayer and stay in an attitude of prayer through the day and I will show you a defeated life and /or probably unsaved person.

Typical: Because I do not line up with your doctrine (Which you will call "Christ's"...never-minding they all do that) you question my salvation. And then you throw around non-sequiturs to enhance the "impact" of your message. Disgusting: conversion a' la manipulation.

I said earlier:
quote:
The conditions of conversion (much like Calvin's: these heresies have been around for a long time) you spout as "God's" are your own. And because of this you cannot discern the Lord's work today.
So, for example: You cannot see that I am already saved and have the Spirit of God in me.

Aaron

P.S. Obviously you will not repent. My time spent on your correction is over. You may have the last word. I will not respond.

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becauseHElives
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quote:
Aaron,

Can he not teach through visions, through study, through suffering?

I never said or implied anything different!

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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becauseHElives
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Aaron you are straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Yeshua said prayer was the life line, not me.

If you can not see that, I will pray for you to really get saved.

I will follow Yeshua’s example, you follow who and what ever you please, if Yeshua needed to pray, I need to pray.

Argue with yourself,

Is Yeshua the author of salvation?

I think He knows better than you.

Show me a person that does not rise early and seek Yahweh in prayer and stay in an attitude of prayer through the day and I will show you a defeated life and /or probably unsaved person.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
That is what prayer is all about, without prayer the scripture are dead letters on a page.

No, without the Spirit the scriptures are dead letters. The scriptures say so:

quote:
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Why go beyond what is written? Why not simply quote what is clearly on the page: without the Spirit man cannot understand the things of God.

There is nothing about prayer here...don't add it.

Similarly, when Paul says "This is what we speak... words taught by the Spirit." Don't assume that only through prayer is the Spirit able to teach. Can he not teach through visions, through study, through suffering?

quote:
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
You're putting God-in-a-box for your own pleasure.


Aaron

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yahsway
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All I can say is if we are Jesus's Bride and He our Groom, than we must speak to Him.

I couldnt imagine being married to my husband and not speaking with him. what kind of life would that be?

In my NKJV in Hebrews chapter 6, it speaks of the Peril of not progressing.

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of Repentance from dead works and of faith toward God.

of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead and of eternal judgement.

And this we will do if God permits.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

if they fall away, to renew them again to Repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, recieves blessing from God;
but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

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helpforhomeschoolers
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Yes, Indeed! Praise GOD for this- how amazing and powerful and incredibly precious that is!
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becauseHElives
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Yeshua is ever making intersession at the right hand of the Father.

And the Spirit prays continually through those whose hearts that earnestly seek Yahweh after being born again.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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helpforhomeschoolers
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Dale says: Salvation is not attain through prayer, but it sustained through prayer.

But question is by whose prayer is it sustained Dale?

Is prayer a one way event? If man ceases to pray for time (honestly im not sure that a believer can cease to pray) but if so, does GOD stop comunicating?

At what point.. after how much or how long a cessation of prayer is one's salvation no longer sustained?

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becauseHElives
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Aaron, you thoughts are ignorance gone to seed.

quote:
The Bible is written so that the saints may mature into the fullness of Christ.

That is what prayer is all about, without prayer the scripture are dead letters on a page.

According to you Yeshua must have been the stupidest man in the universe.

Jesus never taught His disciples to preach, but He taught them to pray.

What reason do you suppose that is?????????????

I am so far from Calvinist teaching, I can't possible think how you arrived at that conclusion.

And if your referring to Roman Catholithism you don’t pay very close attention to what I have posted in the past.

I thought I made it clear about drinking the blood and prayer not as a doctrine but an expression or type of receiving the Life of Yahweh.

You’re the talking about the world to come, I am talking about practical living now, in this body as we walk on earth.

You , nor I, nor anyone else have any life outside of the life that is in Yeshua.

The only way anyone can draw on the life of Yeshua is through prayer, us speaking to Him and Him speaking to us, the life of the child of Yahweh comes no other way.

repeating myself

Jesus never taught His disciples to preach, but He taught them to pray. We must pray, it is not optional to the obedient Christian life

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Yeshua's life was going from place of prayer to place of prayer and pouring out of the life He drew out from His Heavenly Father.

Eternal life begins here and now and prayer is the only way you, I, or anyone else can communicate spirit to spirit as you say with our Heavenly father.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Aaron
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Our "link" to the Father is our spirit. He communes Spirit to spirit. Without being born from above our spirits cannot commune with the Lord.

quote:
If you don’t understand this statement you don’t understand the “Parable of the Sower”

The only source of life known to the child of Yahweh is prayer, it was true for Yeshua and it is true for every true believer.

If this is not true in your life, I prayer you get saved.

Your problem is you cannot imagine anything better than salvation. Perhaps you even think that the Bible was primarily written so that we may know how to get to Heaven.

Garbage! This is the lie of the Evangelical church.

This is what the Catholics proposed and, by it, established the richest commodity on earth: access to God and salvation. When you claim to have THAT your wealth is assured.

But the Bible is not about getting to Heaven. Heaven is a given for the saints, it's a non-issue for them. Of course the born-again will get to Heaven because they are born from above. The Bible is written so that the saints may mature into the fullness of Christ.

Your dogma is the same Catholic dogma that demanded payment for salvation. In your version, however, the commodity is different. Where the Catholics demanded gold for salvation you demand works. Same spirit different expression.

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Maybe prayer isn't drinking Yeshua's Blood but I do know without prayer you have no link to the life of Yahweh!

It seems you've backed off from the "blood = prayer" stance. Now, you need to go all the way and drop your Calvinistic dogma. This garbage has had its day; it has been found lacking in truth...food not fit for the sons of God. Bury it and move on.

Aaron

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becauseHElives
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Salvation is not attain through prayer, but it sustained through prayer.

If you don’t understand this statement you don’t understand the “Parable of the Sower”

The only source of life known to the child of Yahweh is prayer, it was true for Yeshua and it is true for every true believer.

If this is not true in your life, I prayer you get saved.

I will address "carnal christians" in another thread.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
becauseHElives' later post about prayer almost makes it saound as if salvation is attained through prayer, or if one does not pray one cannot be saved.

Salvation is strictly available to us through the work that Jesus did on the cross and nothing needs to, nor can be, added thereto. Salvation is a free gift to whosoever will.

Then, OUT OF being saved will flow things like prayers of supplication and prayers of thanksgiving, and the like, but these DO NOT SAVE a person.

In Corinthians, Paul made it clear that there are carnal Christians and more spiritually inclined Christians, but this has to do with the realm of rewards AFTER salvation rather than OBTAINING salvation.

Some Christians will reap thirty-fold, some sixty-fold, and some a hundred-fold, BUT THEY ARE ALL SAVED provided that they all continuously believe that Jesus was the Son of God who died on behalf of their sins.

Salvation is thus NOT dependent on prayer, but prayer flows OUT OF being saved, as a natural consequence of our thanfulness and of seeing that now we have access to the Lord again through prayer, so we pray ONCE we have obtained access again, not the reverse.

Be blessed, everyone.
Eden

Bless you sis,

I was in prayer last night (Ha!) and this distinction, of rewards AFTER salvation, was what I was lead to type here. When I checked back (just now) I was delighted to find the work had already been completed. [Big Grin]

Aaron

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Eden
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becauseHElives' later post about prayer almost makes it saound as if salvation is attained through prayer, or if one does not pray one cannot be saved.

Salvation is strictly available to us through the work that Jesus did on the cross and nothing needs to, nor can be, added thereto. Salvation is a free gift to whosoever will.

Then, OUT OF being saved will flow things like prayers of supplication and prayers of thanksgiving, and the like, but these DO NOT SAVE a person.

In Corinthians, Paul made it clear that there are carnal Christians and more spiritually inclined Christians, but this has to do with the realm of rewards AFTER salvation rather than OBTAINING salvation.

Some Christians will reap thirty-fold, some sixty-fold, and some a hundred-fold, BUT THEY ARE ALL SAVED provided that they all continuously believe that Jesus was the Son of God who died on behalf of their sins.

Salvation is thus NOT dependent on prayer, but prayer flows OUT OF being saved, as a natural consequence of our thanfulness and of seeing that now we have access to the Lord again through prayer, so we pray ONCE we have obtained access again, not the reverse.

Be blessed, everyone.
Eden

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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
The only life we have is the life that flows from the heavenly Father through prayer!

Sounds like a bookmark. A Catholic bookmark.

Bah, you should know better old man!

Aaron

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WildB
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Ritual without a change of heart is fruitless.

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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There is no Salvation outside of the Jesus/Yeshua!

No one has any life outside of the life of Yeshua!

The only way anyone can share in His Life is the same way He received life while on this earth!

That is through prayer/communion with the Father.

Except a man take up his cross and follow Me, he can not be my disciple.
(a learner, pupil, disciple)

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

There are a lot of tares in the Church today that think because they have said Yahweh forgive me, one time, that qualifies them for an eternity with Him in His Kingdom.

But the scriptures declare those that obey Him have eternal life.

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Did Yeshua pray?

Is He our example?

Yeshua laid down all of His deity, His God Head Powers when He came to earth.

His purpose was to pay the price make no mistake.

But it was also to show us the way.

A way that is straight an narrow and no person can travel except Yahweh by the Holy Ghost lead them and the only way He will lead is through a life committed to prayer.

Yeshua could not bear the load of the cross on His own, but He commands us to care our cross.

Except a man take up his cross and follow Me, he can not be my disciple.

What’s the deal here?

The deal is Yeshua is our example, Yeshua fell under the load of His cross and His Father sent Simon of Cyrene to help Him, but after Yeshua was glorified He sent back the Holy Spirit the comforter to help us carry our cross because alone we can not do it either.

If this is not true in any life, that life is deceived and is on the way to Hell.

Without prayer, a constant communion with Yahweh through the Holy Spirit there is no Salvation, don’t let anyone lie to you.

The only life we have is the life that flows from the heavenly Father through prayer!

Bringing it to another level, there is no Salvation without sanctification. (But that’s another topic)

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Eden
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Is prayer a requirement for salvation?

People are saved after they have been listening to sermons or after they have been reading the Bible, and the day comes where they PRAY to his God that they have been hearing or reading about.

Romans 10:9:

9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, then you shall be saved.

That, saying with our mouth that we believe that Jesus was the Lord Jesus is one of our FIRST prayers to this God of the Bible, first concerning salvation, and later we pray about other thoughts and feelings and needs to our new Father the God of Israel and His Son Jesus and The Holy Spirit.

What becauseHElives is also asking with his Topic, “Is prayer a requirement of salvation?” is whether, if a person is saved, BUT the person is NOT PRAYING after their initial prayer for salvation like Romans 10:9, is that NOT PRAYING an INDICATION that they are NOT REALLY SAVED?

Paul did talk about CARNAL Christians and SPIRITUAL Christians, but the Bible seems to say that a CARNAL Christian will be saved, provided that the CARNAL Christian does at least ONE TALENT’S worth of something for the kingdom of God.

If the CARNAL Christian does nothing to help the furtherance of the kingdom of God on earth, the Bible seems to indicate that God will appoint that person a place with the hypocrites:

Matthew 24:51
And shall cut him asunder and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 7:6
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

On the other hand, the Bible seems to indicate that the CARNAL Christians WILL be saved, as long as they believe in Jesus dying for them, but they will NOT get any rewards, but they themselves shall be saved:

1 Corinthians 3

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Another question is: what does this “yet so as by fire” refer to in verse 15?

But, is prayer a requirement for salvation? We are saved by praying for salvation, and it could be said that we are CONTINUEING to be saved by prayer as we CONTINUE to acknowledge to God by words in our heart and minds and feelings, "Lord, I acknowledge to You that Jesus died for my sins", and that could be called "prayer or continuous affirmation to God, in the case of salvation, especially if salvation is based on "continuos believing" and not just on "once believing but not continuous believing".

Be blessed and be saved, everyone
Eden

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Aaron
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"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."

"For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

Aaron

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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
[QB] Is not prayer communication to/with God?

It's one way. People have also communicated with God in their dreams and visions...seemingly either asleep or awake. Still others talk to God as one talks to someone in the room.

But here's a question: who makes the call?

That is to say "Who initiates the communication?" In Paul's case the initiator was clearly the Lord. And was Paul repentant prior to the Lord speaking with him? No. It was the presence of the Lord that changed Paul...not, as some would make it, his change that prompted the Lord's presence.

Aaron

It is true that God must draw the sinner, but the sinner must communicate with God, in response to the call.

Defining Prayer

To summarize, the concept of the English word prayer includes either ASKING a person, God or some object of worship for something, or PRAISING, THANKING or COMMUNING with the Divine. From this, we would characterize prayer essentially as communication -- usually with a Divine Being, but not always. It can be understood that the communication concerns itself basically with things the Divine Being gives or does for the pray-er; or with praiseworthy qualities of the Diety.


Romans 10:
8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

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16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
[QB] Is not prayer communication to/with God?

It's one way. People have also communicated with God in their dreams and visions...seemingly either asleep or awake. Still others talk to God as one talks to someone in the room.

But here's a question: who makes the call?

That is to say "Who initiates the communication?" In Paul's case the initiator was clearly the Lord. And was Paul repentant prior to the Lord speaking with him? No. It was the presence of the Lord that changed Paul...not, as some would make it, his change that prompted the Lord's presence.

Aaron

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Caretaker
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Is not prayer communication to/with God?

Would not prayer be a prerequisite to being born-again?

Is it not imperative to confess our sins and invite our Lord Jesus into our hearts and lives?

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:

Maybe prayer isn't drinking Yeshua's Blood but I do know without prayer you have no link to the life of Yahweh!

Unless you are willing to claim "unique circumstance" you'll have a hard time fitting Saul's conversion into your bias.

Here was a man, off to persecute Christians (the very Body of Christ, Himself!) and our Lord intercepts him along to way to bring him under His rule.

And Paul is converted: he believes the Lord! How do we know?

We know he believed the Lord because he did what the Lord commanded him: "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
And Paul got up and went.

In your version we have the Lord waiting for some sign of Paul's fealty...prayer...and a hope that he takes a peek at a Bible (which didn't exist in that time) before the Lord will even talk with him. Rubbish!

THE WORD CAME TO PAUL. The Word, our Lord Jesus Christ, found Paul!...while Paul was on his way to persecute the Word! Get it?!

The conditions of conversion (much like Calvin's: these heresies have been around for a long time) you spout as "God's" are your own. And because of this you cannot discern the Lord's work today.

Aaron

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becauseHElives
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Aaron, I am sorry you think I am, as you call it promoting "extra-Biblical doctrine"

To me prayer and reading scripture or any other method of ingesting what Yahweh has to say can not be separated from from true salvation.

our natural life comes from natural methods, eating and drinking.

our spiritual life comes through a supper natural method ....

The Roman Catholics believe the little wafer becomes the body and the wine becomes the blood of Yeshua this is blaspheme.

but the Protestants aren't much better they think they have obeyed what Yeshua taught by their little ritual.

My wording may be incorrect but I know what the heart of Yahweh is trying to convey to His people ...

He wants our hearts not our ceremony

People Protestants and Roman Catholics are dieing and going to hell because of formulas and traditions.

Maybe prayer isn't drinking Yeshua's Blood but I do know without prayer you have no link to the life of Yahweh!

I know without the word you can not be saved!

I know Yeshua said ...
"Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you."

I know He is not talking about any ritual here Protestant or Roman Catholic.

Yeshua is talking of a spiritual communion in comparisons to that He had with His Father.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by J4Jesus:
when someone is Born Again, whether in the beginning or all the way through the years, they'll eventually want to pray.

Of course! It is our nature to pray! Just as the pointer points to the quail through no external training the Christian is drawn to speak to his Father in Heaven.

Aaron

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when someone is Born Again, whether in the beginning or all the way through the years, they'll eventually want to pray.
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Hey Aaron,

Yeshua is the Bread we eat,
Yeshua is the Blood we drink...

unless you eat Yeshua's flesh & drink His Blood

quote:
53. ... Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

If you think you have eternal life without prayer(drinking in the life of Yeshua) and If you think you have eternal life without eating the word of Yahweh ( In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.)

Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

I am amazed that anyone could believe prayer and Yahweh's Word are separable from True Salvation.

Aaron you say believing is drinking....

I say truly believing is praying (walking and talking continually with Yeshua, drinking in His life's Blood, Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.)

believing with no corresponding action is dead lifeless religion.

You keep repeating yourself and the verses in question. But the Bible does not support your conclusion. So no matter how many times you say the words they will not line up to the conclusion you desire.

And I never said one should not "eat or drink" Christ...in fact I supported the notion quite clearly. It's your extra-Biblical doctrine that is suspect...you're proposing an un-Biblical definition of both the food and the drink to make it fit your doctrine!

The Lord has sought to correct you many times but you would have none of it. It's shameful. You're an old man. You should know better! YOU SHOULD BE TEACHING ME THESE THINGS! And yet here is the younger having to correct the elder...if you will receive it.

Aaron

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becauseHElives
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Hey Aaron,

Yeshua is the Bread we eat,
Yeshua is the Blood we drink...

unless you eat Yeshua's flesh & drink His Blood

quote:
53. ... Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

If you think you have eternal life without prayer(drinking in the life of Yeshua) and If you think you have eternal life without eating the word of Yahweh ( In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.)

Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

I am amazed that anyone could believe prayer and Yahweh's Word are separable from True Salvation.

Aaron you say believing is drinking....

I say truly believing is praying (walking and talking continually with Yeshua, drinking in His life's Blood, Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.)

believing with no corresponding action is dead lifeless religion.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Aaron
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So Jesus carried scrolls around wherever He went? And by His study of these He was obedient to the Father? Just like the prophets: where it says "the word of the Lord came to *enter prophet's name* we can read it as "someone handed the prophet a scroll"?

And the apostles; their letters were merely copied from articles already on scrolls? And Paul; I suppose his encounter with the Lord on the road was merely a movie that had already been produced, and certified, by a fellow believer?

See, what I read is this:
quote:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
Ok, so we've got some nice "bread". No wonder those listening shouted out:
quote:
Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
To which the Lord replies:
quote:
And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
Ok, we've got the bread definition: Jesus Himself! But He added something to it:

quote:
and he who believes in Me shall never thirst
Sounds like a drink to me. He calls it "belief".
So, we've got Jesus, the bread, and belief, the drink. Is there any more to this?

Jesus continues:
quote:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
Ah ha! He's now explaining His own character. If we adhere to context we can say "He's explaining why HE IS the bread!" Nice.

quote:
"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."
Here is what qualifies Him as "the bread": He does the Father's will.

Is this important? You bet. He repeats it later in the verses you quoted:

quote:
"I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
Bingo!

So, He causes quite a stir among the people. So they start debating..like all good pundits. They ask "Ok, we can get over the supposed heresy of cannibalism for the sake of debate but, IF He is the bread then how do we eat Him?"

Fair question.

So, let's review what we've got:

Father sent bread.
Jesus is the bread.
He's the bread because He does the will of the Father.
Jesus is "the drink".
The drink is belief in Jesus.

Ok, "belief" I understand. But this eating part... I'm still a little fuzzy. And what exactly do I "drink"? (since we're obviously talking figuratively here)
Jesus explains:
quote:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you."
Drink His blood...OH! I get it! His blood atoned for my sin, I'm sure I read that somewhere! And the drink is belief! So, I believe the blood of Jesus atoned for my sin!
Got it.

And now the eating:

quote:
"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me."
Ah ha! Jesus lived by doing everything He saw the Father doing.
He said that somewhere... (John 5)
quote:
Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."
And so we live, now, by doing what the Son tells us to do!
That is our bread!

So, here's what we got:
drink = belief in Jesus' atoning work on the cross for my sins
bread = do only what Jesus Christ tells us to do

Sorry brother, there's nothing about prayer or studying in there.

How did "drink" come to others? Well, for Peter God revealed it to him:
quote:
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,the Son of the living God."
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Paul got tackled!

quote:
As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,"

And the bread?

Ananias studied really hard...no wait...the Lord gave him a vision:
quote:
In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"
"Yes, Lord," he answered.
The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying.

Paul had a vision:
quote:
In a vision he (Paul) has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."
..not to mention the obvious Damascus tackle.

And Peter had a vision. Now pay attention to the words here:
quote:
About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
Did you catch it?

quote:
Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat...
After Peter's hunger is recorded the Lord tells Peter what to do. Peter is hungry in a physical way but the Lord feeds peter in a spiritual way... He tells Peter what to do. THIS is the bread. And He didn't read it from a scroll! The Lord Jesus Christ fed Peter that day and He's still feeding His sheep today....

quote:
"My sheep hear my voice."
and

quote:
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
"It is written"? Where is THAT written? Jesus was quoting Deuteronomy 8:3

quote:
He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.
THERE IT IS! Jesus feeds us just as God fed the Israelites in the desert: with food from heaven! And the food is His word that continually comes from His mouth. The Israelite did not know of manna and the Lord's words cannot be understood by mere mortals! His words are spoken spirit-to-spirit. The "dead" cannot hear the Living God. That is why eternal life hinges upon two things: the drink...the atonement for my sins, the burial of my "dead" man and the raising of the "new man" and the bread... doing what the Lord tells us to do. By these two things I have eternal life.

The drink makes my spirit alive in Christ and, alive, I can eat of the bread from Heaven... I can then hear and do the words of my Lord. The words that are continually coming from His mouth....like they did in the New Testament...like they do today.

Aaron

P.S. This is why the "great commission" reads: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

In other words "DO what the Lord tells you to do!"

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becauseHElives
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quote:
Aaron
Where is that written in the Bible?

quote:
[Bible]
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven.
52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.



quote:
[Bible]
54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.
55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.
57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.
58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.



quote:
[Bible]
Leviticus 17:11 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood,

quote:
[Bible]
For the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (2 Corinthians 3:6). ...



The written word has no life, it is just words on paper. Yeshua in His walk on earth demonstrated emphatically to his disciples that prayer was his true source of life with the Father.

Eat my flesh is to consume Yahweh’s Word, by reading, studying, meditation, and hearing the word preached.

Drinking His Blood is to have the heart of Yahweh through continual prayer give life to the scriptures so that it brings life to us and those around us.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Uncle Bubba
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Have I prayed in vein??

--------------------
uncle Bubba

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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Prayer is drinking the blood of Yeshua....

Reading, studying and listening to preaching of the scripture is eating the flesh of Yeshua.

It is?

Where is that written in the Bible?

Aaron

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becauseHElives
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Talking about water baptism and its importance has brought to mind, what about prayer ?

Can a person who professes salvation with their mouth never prayer?

How about reading and studylng the Word of Yahweh (Bible)?

Prayer is drinking the blood of Yeshua....

Reading, studying and listening to preaching of the scripture is eating the flesh of Yeshua.

JOHN CHAPTER 6

51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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