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Topic: I grew up Catholic....
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Hi, desertdweller, I grew up a Catholic Christian but I became a Protestant Christian as an adult, but I also think of myself as
"a Christian".
It does seem to me that the so-called Holy Roman See or Roman Catholic Church in the centuries AFTER Jesus Christ but BEFORE the so-called Reformation begun by Wycliff in England and continued by John Huss of Germany and after him by Martyn Luther of Germany and after him by Zwingli in Switzerland, these men taught that the Word of God should be our only guide for good and bad and for spiritual food, and NOT the dictates of the Roman Catholic Church.
In these centuries BEFORE the Reformation, the people themselves had practically NO COPIES of the New Testament to guide their lives by, and instead the Roman Catholic church WAS SELLING INDULGENCES to sinners to pay for their sins.
And the Roman Catholic church INVENTED the doctrine of PURGATORY that if one gave enough of a tithe to the Roman See or served in the army for the Holy See to detroy the John Hussites and the Martyn Lutherans and the Zwinglis, then one’s sins would be exturpated and paid for.
But this selling of indulgences were ALL LIES by which the Roman Catholic Church acquired great wealth and opulence and wearing costly clothes and living in magnificent building and feasting sumptuously. All over the empire legates of the Holy Roman See fanned out to COLLECT THE INDULDGENCES for forgiveness of sin, and if not provided, it showed a lack of love for God and if excommunicated by these same rapacious legates, no one could provide them food, shelter, or aid of any kind, but were even ordered to turn over those who were “only guided by the Word of God”.
This went on for centuries.
And Mary worship in Roman Catholic Latin American countries especially is RAMPANT, like Our Lady of Guadalupe, who practically is prayed to as a MEDIATOR beween the people and Her Son Jesus, with the idea that since Mary was the MOTHER of Jesus, she HAS INFLUENCE with her Son Jesus, and therefore people pray for MARY TO INTERCEDE for them with Jesus.
This is totally contrary to the Word of God where it is expressly stated that Jesus is the Mediator between man and God, and Him only.
Read also Foxe’s Martyrs. I’m currently reading E.G. White’s Seventh Day Adventist’s book, The Great Controversy, and in it she describes the horrific history of the Roman Catholic Church from the first centuries to the Reformation and beyond. The Roman Catholic Church says that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth, while in truth, the Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ on earth.
For the above reasons and more, I, like John Huss and Martyn Luther and Zwingli before me, had to admit that the Word of God would be my ONLY guide, and no man of ANY kind would and could be my guide; for ALL men can be saved and washed ONLY by the Word of God: the just shall live by faith.
I can assure you, desertdweller, that Satan and the Roman Catholic Church HATED THE INVENTION OF THE PRINTING PRESS probably MORE than anything that had happened since Jesus’s resurrection. For now the mass of the people could finally see that ONLY the blood of Jesus served for forgiveness of sins, and NOT the selling of indulgences to oblitarate sins. THEY HATED THE PRINTER’S PRESS.
So now I’m just a Christian, but if asked, I would also be a PROTESTANT, meaning, ONE WHO PROTEST that “the just shall live by faith” and NOT by indulgences and other untruths.
Be blessed,
Eden
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TEXASGRANDMA
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One of the biggest lies the Catholic Church teaches, is that all will end up in heaven. This is not true. You said yourself we all need Jesus. The truth is with out being saved, a person will never see Heaven. It is the cruelest thing, to make a person believe that they can go to purgatory and some how end up in Heaven. There is no purgatory in the Bible. We either accept Jesus as our personal Savior in this life time or we spend eternity in hell. If you do some studying on the Catholic Church you will find out that they did not always believe in purgatory. They invented it, to get people to try and buy there relative’s way in to Heaven, which is impossible, but is only the Church stealing from those who grieve over unsaved loved ones. In this regard the Catholic Church is just as cruel as those so called mediums who claim to speak for dead loved ones about how they all end up in a better place. We do not all end up in a better place. If we refuse the gift of salvation we end up in a place so bad we can’t even describe it. Pray for the lost loved ones today, after they die it is too late.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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desertdweller
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Sorry, it sounds to me like you are adding to scripture with all you say that the apostles understood He really meant 'means.' I'm not going to go on arguing this. I think this is all proof of how everyone reads scripture with prejudice - bringing to it what they already believe - Catholics and Protestants alike.
(BTW I also don't think the 'explanation of transubstantiantion if very useful. This where the Orthodox have a better approach. They rightly accuse the Catholics of often trying to explain things that are a mystery. This is a good case. I think in some Jesus meant what he said....and no one necessarily knows the fullness of it all).
I also don't agree with the Catholic and Orthodox position of not permitting Protestants to receive communion. (So I'm not a very perfect Catholic at all). I defend them both, see weaknesses in the both, but in the final analysis, we should all be focusing on the shared truth that we all need Jesus, need to turn our lives completely over to Him, repent of our sins - since He is the Savior of the World.
God Bless
DD
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Caretaker
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http://www.justforcatholics.org/a21.htm
Are Catholics Christian?
Question: Are Catholics Christians? If not, why? This is not a negative question. I desire to honestly know if Catholics are considered to be part of the Christian faith.
Answer: This is a most important question anybody can ask. Am I a Christian? Or am I a Christian in name only? Do I have a living relationship with Christ?
Well then, who has the right to call himself Christian? Like the Jews of old, people still fool themselves in thinking that they are right with God because of some ritual (like circumcision or baptism) or because of their heritage ("I was born into a Christian family and attend a Christian church").
According to the Bible, a true Christian is chosen by God before the foundation of the world, redeemed and forgiven by the blood of Christ, illuminated by the Spirit, knows and obeys the truth of the Gospel. A Christian is someone who trusts in Christ for his salvation, and gives all praise to God for His grace. (Please read Ephesians 1:3-13).
Does a Roman Catholic fit this description? Superficially he does. He believes in Christ and speaks about the grace of God. But if he follows the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, regretfully I must say that he does not really believe in Christ nor does he know the grace of God. Please allow me to explain.
The Gospel teaches that "a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Romans 3:28). God regards a person just and righteous who trusts wholeheartedly in Jesus, and who does not attempt to win God's favour by his imperfect obedience of the Law. Sadly, Roman theology has rejected God's way of salvation. To faith, Rome adds a set of deeds (many of which are human inventions) and curses anyone who dares to completely trust in Christ alone for salvation. 'If anyone says that the faith that justifies is nothing else but trust in the divine mercy, which pardons sins because of Christ, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified, let him be anathema.' (Council of Trent, session 6, cannon 12).
We firmly believe that our sins are pardoned because of the sacrifice of Christ alone. Rome would have us perform acts of penance and suffer in purgatory to expiate our sins. The Bible proclaims Christ, the Priest who offered himself once for all. Rome would have us apply to her priests who daily offer their sacrifices on the altar. The Bible proclaims Christ as the only Mediator, Rome would have us apply to other mediators, like Mary, the saints and the church.
Again, we assert that we are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24). The Bible clearly defines what grace is: "to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt" (Romans 4:4) Grace is unmerited favour, as opposed to the merit of works. Rome outwardly teaches that we are justified by grace. However the "grace" of Catholicism is a very strange species. The Catholic Church states that "we can then merit for ourselves...the graces needed...for the attainment of eternal life" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2010). To merit grace is a contradiction in terms. Rome would not allow you to receive the gift of salvation with a grateful heart, but would have you work like a slave to merit it.
We are forced to conclude that the message of Rome is a different gospel. It is a false gospel. I say this with much sadness and concern for the multitudes of Catholics who blindly follow this false system. I must warn every Catholic that Christ is of no avail to you unless you relinquish any confidence in yourself and your works, and in every other creature. Faith must be in Christ - alone!
Having said that, I gladly add the following caveat. There may be some nominal Catholics who, either out of ignorance or willful rejection of Catholic doctrine, truly trust in Christ alone for their salvation. They are Christians and really belong to God.
The book of Revelation describes a deceptive and false religious system named Babylon. It is not my intention here to discuss the exact nature of this Babylon - the principle remains the same. Some Christians are trapped inside this deceptive system and God gives them a specific command: "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Revelation 18:4). Thank God that even in Babylon, God has His people. If you are a Christian entrapped in the false religious system of Rome, hear God's calling and come out of her. You will experience liberty and life like never before.
Copyright Dr Joe Mizzi. Permission to copy and distribute this article without textual changes.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by Primoa1970:
Jesus told us to do this is memory of Him.....
He didn't say that we need to literally eat Him every time we celebrate communion.
I'm sorry but....transubstantiation is wrong.
When Jesus said "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood....."
He was speaking metaphorically. We celebrate communion because it is what Jesus instructed us to do...in remembrance of Him....not because He wants us to eat Him.
Amen!!!!!!
http://www.justforcatholics.org/a34.htm
Question: Though the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation cannot be proved by the Bible alone, neither can you show that the bread and wine are merely signs of the body and blood of Christ. A literal understanding of Jesus’ words, “This is my body…this is my blood” agrees well with the Catholic doctrine of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist.
[Another reader asked] Jesus' words are plain and clear: This is my body. He does not say, This is a symbol of my body. Why is it that you do not take Christ's words literally like Catholics do?
Answer: Like Evangelicals, Catholics do not take Jesus' words, “This is my body...this is my blood” in a strictly literal sense, for they do not really believe that the bread is Jesus’ body or that the wine is Jesus’ blood. The literal meaning – “This bread is my body; this wine is my blood” -- is a contradiction in terms. Bread is bread, not a human body; wine is wine, not blood. To explain away the obvious empirical facts, clever Catholic theologians have come up with this idea of transubstantiation: What appears to be bread is not bread at all, and though it has all the characteristics of bread, it is in reality (or in substance) the body of Christ! Although this is usually considered a literal interpretation, it is strictly speaking not so.
It is a great misconception that the words of Christ, “This is my body...this is my blood,” prove the doctrine of transubstantiation, for these words are more naturally understood “This bread represents my body...this wine represents my blood,” rather than “This apparent bread is my substantial body...this apparent wine is my substantial blood.”
This Is
The verb “is” is often used with a plain literal meaning. I can point to my car and say, “This is my car.” Nothing could be simpler than that. Yet the same verb is also used in a figurative sense. Pointing to the small dot on the map in the middle of the Mediterranean, I can tell you, “This is Malta, my country.” By that I mean, “This represents my country” -- for Malta is not a little dot on a piece of paper. Or, at the dinner table, to explain how I hit an old lady while driving to work, I may take a glass in one hand and the saltshaker in the other, and tell you, “This is my car, and this is the old woman.” That kind of speech is sensible only when we understand “This is” as “This represents.”
Take a biblical example of the symbolic meaning of the verb “to be.” Jesus taught: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels” (Matthew 13:37-39). Notice how Jesus repeatedly uses “is” and “are” to mean “represents” or “symbolizes” or “corresponds to.” The sower is the Son of man, meaning of course, that the sower represents the Son of man. The field is the world, that is, the field symbolizes the world, and so on.
Take another biblical example. In a narrative in the book of Samuel, three brave men put their lives at risk to bring fresh water for their master, David, from a well on the side of the Philistines. But when David found out about this, he would not drink it. He said, “Far be it from me, O LORD, that I should do this! Is this not the blood of the men who went in jeopardy of their lives?” (2 Samuel 23:17). Is not this the blood of the men? He called the water in the vessel “blood,” not because it was transubstantiated, but simply because it represented the danger to the lives of those three men who brought it.
So, we should agree that (in the right context) “this is” could mean “this represents.” Now, I would like to show that there is ample contextual evidence that the bread and wine are symbols of Jesus’ body and blood.
Sacred Signs
1. The purpose of the Eucharist is a remembrance, a memorial, of Christ. After His bodily ascension into heaven, Christ is physically absent from His disciples on earth for many centuries until His second coming. So at the last supper with His disciples, He gave us a memorial that is both simple and profound in its significance:
When He had given thanks, He broke [the bread] and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me” (1 Corinthians 11:24, 25).
Just as the Passover meal was a reminder of God's deliverance of His people from the slavery in Egypt, even so in the Lord's Supper shows the story of our redemption from the slavery of sin by the sacrifice of Christ. Bread and wine are appropriate symbols to remind us of His crucified body and the blood shed on Calvary.
2. When Jesus said, “This is my body,” He was physically present with the disciples. They could see, hear and touch him. John was actually leaning on His bosom. So when Jesus took bread and said, “This is my body,” it was only natural for the apostles to understand that the bread was the symbol rather than His actual body. The tangible proof that the bread did not become Jesus’ body, is the bodily, physical, substantial and material presence of the man Jesus Christ standing with the apostles.
Similarly, when He said, “This is my blood,” Jesus added, “…which is shed for you.” Which blood shed for us? The wine in the cup or the blood in Jesus' veins? Since the wine was never shed, it must represent the blood that was actually shed on the cross.
3. It is impossible to consistently interpret Jesus words literally. We have four slightly different accounts of Jesus' words relating to the cup and blood:
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“For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28).
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“This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many” (Mark 14:24).
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“This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you” (Luke 22:20).
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“This cup is the new covenant in My blood” (1 Corinthians 11:25).
The meanings of the four accounts correspond to each other. Matthew, Mark, Luke and Paul are essentially saying the same thing using different words. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it is possible to take “This is my blood” in Matthew and Mark either literally or figuratively. But could we say the same for Luke and Paul? Definitely not! “This cup is the new covenant.” The literal interpretation is absurd and meaningless -- certainly the cup is not literally the new testament! The wine is not transubstantiated into the new testament. The Holy Spirit who inspired these words employed a phraseology that simply cannot be understood literally. We are forced to acknowledge that the cup is the sign of the new testament in Christ's blood and not literally the testament or the blood.
Now, comparing Luke and Paul with Matthew and Mark, we can easily determine whether the latter two should be understood literally or figuratively. To be consistent, we must opt for the symbolic meaning. The wine represents the shed blood of Jesus. Moreover, since “This is my body” is parallel to “This is my blood,” this statement too must also be understood figuratively. This bread represents Jesus’ body.
Conclusion
We have seen that the phrase “this is” could mean “this represents.” So at least one should acknowledge that “This is my body...this is my blood” could mean “This represents my body and blood.” Given Jesus' bodily presence with the apostles when He uttered those words, and His explanation that the eating and drinking is a memorial of Him, it is highly likely that He intended the bread and wine as symbols of His body and blood. Finally, we have seen that Jesus' words about the cup cannot be understood literally in the writings of Luke and Paul, and it would be contradictory to give them a literal meaning in the writings of the other two evangelists.
Maybe up to now you have never tried to understand Jesus' words symbolically. Please do. Pray, asking God to give you understanding, and while you read carefully the relevant passages in the synoptic gospels and First Corinthians, ask yourself, “Must I understand this to mean transubstantiation? Could it mean instead that the bread and wine are sacred signs of the body and blood of Christ?”
Copyright Dr Joe Mizzi. Permission to copy and distribute this article without textual changes.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Primoa1970
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Jesus told us to do this is memory of Him.....
He didn't say that we need to literally eat Him every time we celebrate communion.
I'm sorry but....transubstantiation is wrong.
When Jesus said "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood....."
He was speaking metaphorically. We celebrate communion because it is what Jesus instructed us to do...in remembrance of Him....not because He wants us to eat Him.
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1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Posts: 639 | From: Orlando, FL | Registered: Feb 2003
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Jesus died once for our salvation. He does not die daily. We do not drink His literal blood for at communion. His blood was taken to Heaven and put on the Altar in Heaven. Jesus is not still on the cross. He is at the right hand of the Father. I will discourage anyone from going to the Catholic Church because we do not need to confess our sins to a Priest. We confess our sins to Jesus. The Priest does not have the power to turn wine into Jesus blood.
It is not a question of bad mouthing the Catholic Church but discouraging people from becoming confused by her doctrine which is contrary to the Bible. When we hear of a Protestant preacher preaching against the teaching of the Word of God, we on this board come out against him to. It is not about Catholic -vs- Protestant but about false teaching.
Not one person has thrown insults at you. We have caution you out of love.
Martin Luthur started the Protestant Church because he saw how the Catholic Church was misleading the people for finacial gain. Don't let your anger keep you from seeing the truth. Yes your Priest could be a really nice guy but there are nice guys who are leading people with false Gospel all over the world.
betty
http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Catholic-Protestant.html
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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desertdweller
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I have read the whole Bible, and intend to keep reading it. Daily reading of the scriptures is encouraged by the Catholic Church (at least now). I also have copies in various translations, not just the KJV - also the NIV, Amplified, and Greek.
I don't disagree that the word of God is the authority (or course this could get into the whole issue of how they decided what books go into the NT, but that would probably just end up in another argument, which I don't want).
Part of the reason I was drawn to the Catholic Church is because they do take scripture so seriously....
That gets into the whole issue of Communion. They take Jesus literally when he says "This is my body, this is my blood" and then there's John 6:
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.
68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."
And then in the Gospels - as here in Luke 22
19And when He had taken some bread and (A)given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
Jesus doesn't say this is a symbol of - or this means - he says this is my body. That's why the Catholics (and the Lutherans and Anglicans to some degree, and the Orthodox)believe that in some way - don't really know "how it works" - since it is a mystery - that when we receive communion it is the body and blood of Christ.
And from John 6 you see it is Jesus that is clear He means it is his body.....and at the Last Supper he showed the disciples what He meant exactly.
So I'd tell you the same thing. Go read scripture.
Look, let's stop this. There's no point. I am not trying to get you to become Catholic, I am just tired of people throwing insults at me when I know the truth is different. And - whenever I hear Catholics insult Protestants (and of course that happens) - I defend the Protestants because most of the problem is that we have a different vocabulary for the same things.
I wish the best for you all.
DD
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TEXASGRANDMA
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http://www.historyguide.org/earlymod/95theses.html
this is the 95 theses that Martin Luthur left on the door of the Catholic Church. You might find this interesting.
by the way my girlfriend has turned Catholic after growing up in the Assembly of God Church all her life. Her new husband has led her to leave her roots to go to Church with him.
No matter how nice your Priest is or even my Pastor is, the final authority to God's Word. Again, I beg you to get out your King James Bible and study for yourself. What is wrong about the Catholic Church is they have added and taken away from the Bible. This in itself is wrong.
with love,
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I have no intention of talking with a Priest. When Jesus died on the cross, the curtain between the Holy of Holies ripped from the top to the bottom. This was a sign to us that we do not need to pray through a Priest but we can pray to God directly. Despite what your Priest says, the Catholic Church believes that the Pope is God on earth and is infallible. This is a false teaching. Too many people have made it clear that the Catholic Church does not want their people to read the King James Version but only the Catholic Bible. The Catholic Church is afraid that their people will learn the truth. There is no purgatory. You said yourself that you did not feel comfortable with the Catholic Church until you got into it yourself. I have no intention, of getting myself mixed up with the Catholic Church.
I challenge you to get a King James Bible and begin to compare the Catholic Bible to the King James and see for yourself where you are being misled. I pray that God will obey your eyes to the truth. Yes there are wonderful people in the Catholic Church, but with love I ask you to come out from the Catholic Church and get into a good Bible teaching Church.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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desertdweller
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If you really want answers, go make an appointment to see a Catholic priest at a nearby parish. Bring him your questions.
When I entered the Catholic Church I found out that by 'the Church' they mean the mystical body of Christ, which they mean to include Protestant - from the pulpit I have heard priest make it clear to the congregation that Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc., are all members of the Body of Christ - the Church.
I don't know of a priest that believe if someone isn't baptized they go to hell - unless they refuse it, which is contrary to what Jesus commanded. They talk of the baptism of desire, the bapstism of blood - for cases where people die not baptised but are martyred.
So go make an appointment and go talk to a priest. Pulling specific lines out of book and interpreting them without understanding the whole is a mistake. Just like we would tell someone if they quoted a line from the Old Testament about how many bulls to sacrifice on an altar that they need to read and understand the whole thing.
DD
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TEXASGRANDMA
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http://www.afcministry.com/RC_Believe.htm
#891 The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful--who confirms his brethren in the faith--he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals...The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council...This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.
What do Roman Catholics believe about Salvation? Roman Catholics believe Salvation is truly in the only true Church, that being the Roman Catholic Church. The Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church gives some contradictory views on what exactly they believe on Salvation. The following are quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church on Salvation inside and outside the Roman Catholic Church.
#841 The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.
#846 Outside the Church there is no salvation - Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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becauseHElives
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there is the Wh!ore (The Roman Catholic Church) and the Daughters of the Wh!ore (The Protestant Churches that came out of her) that make up all the false Christian belief sytems of the world....
the only True believers are those that recognize nothing but the Blood of Yeshua / Jesus will convert the heart and make a new creation that will live throughout eternity with Yahweh as His children.
Yahweh has always had and always will have a remnant not willing to bow its knee to this world,
you can not pray to Mary and begin to think you are a Christian....
read history and you will find that when the
Roman Catholics were killing the Protestants
and
the Protestants were killing the Roman Catholic
They were both killing the Anabaptist because only Anabaptist were the only ones that held to the True Faith...
they refused to baptize infants and they love not their lives unto death (they refused to kill anyone) they prayed for their enemies.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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desertdweller
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I've very sorry you all who have had such negative experiences with Catholicm - and I don't doubt what you say - some priest say some unChristian things. There are plenty of Catholics out there who don't actually know the real position of the Church and just pass on myth. But that's not the actual position of the Catholic Church - at least now. Times change and maybe what I have been exposed to is different from what you all have been exposed to.
I have also been exposed to Protestant ministers who said very damaging things to people and who later regretted their position. Thank God, lots of people change.
And there are common positions of the Catholic Church I also would like to see changed - I think they should preach more on individual relationship with Christ, but I also know some priests who talk about how essential that is all the time. Things evolve and change.
As I said, I wouldn't tell you all of you are all being deceived and being taught falsehoods unless you are Catholic (although I know some Catholics who believe that - just like some Protestants believe that about their own denomination). When I was Protestant (Baptist) I used to believe that unless someone was Baptist they were being deceived.
I think for some it may be good to move from denomination to another one, since each stresses different things. For others they need to stay in one denomination; so my prayer for you all is that the Holy Spirit guides you to where exactly God wants you to be so that you grow in knowledge and love of Jesus.
Don't necessarily believe what one person tells you about Catholicsm....if you don't believe me go read the official Catechism of the Catholic Church and you'll find lots of what you think people believe is just false.
But sometimes it's hard to let go of pain, and so I don't actually expect anyone to go to the trouble of sitting down with a priest and asking him yourself (as I did - and I went out of such arrogance...to 'straighten him out'). This is the path I know I'm called to - because my relationship with Jesus has grown so much - and that's the test. If I were inspired by the devil or something, why would I advocate that everyone needs the intimate relationship with Christ? A house divided against itself does not stand.
But you will believe whatever you want. That's OK. I just can relate that I used to think all that.....I know how you feel....and I found out the truth was different. I think a lot of discord is sown between denominations so that we are all seduced into in-fighting rather than ministering and witnessing to the world.
May you all grow in the love and knowledge of Christ Jesus.
DD
Posts: 51 | Registered: Feb 2007
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timspong
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posted
To have a full appreciation and correct perspective of the Roman Catholic Church, I think you need to study it in its historical context. I.e. how it evolved over thousands of years and the kind of enormous political pressures it has had to bear through the centuries. It is no wonder that it got a little bent out of shape.
Personally I think that all denominational doctrine suffers from human intellectual contamination to some degree.
Ro 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
I know my own personal doctrine is constantly changing as I mature in Christ and I would hate to have to make a permanent decision about everything. This would only serve to kill the learning process.
The main problem is that a denominational doctrine needs to have all the answers which essentially puts God into a box.
I personally think it is okay for a pastor to admit to not knowing everything. I would much prefer him to be able to give the various points of view in their correct historical context. However, pride often gets the better of everybody.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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Primoa1970
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As Christians, we are in no way perfect. So I do not stand on some spiritual soap-box when I say this:
It is so sad to see multitudes of catholics truly believing in what they do as right:
Praying the rosary....
Praying to Mary.....
Kneeling down in front of statues in prayer....
Believing in transubstantiation (the belief that the bread & wine literally become the body & blood of Jesus....which is just as bad as cannibalism in my mind)
Following a system rather than a Savior....
I pray for the catholic....that they would see the truth and the rank idolatry that goes on in their religion. We've got our issues too but....at least we have the same common denominator in Jesus Christ as Redeemer & Savior.
-Primo
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1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
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lonlesol
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My soon to be saved/non-practicing/Christian/Catholic ex-husband asked me for a divorce because I read the Bible!...in his mind, it is wrong to read the Bible!!!... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
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lonlesol
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In the nursing home where I now work, all the elderly people that live there are Catholics. They spend their time praying to Mary or to their lost parents with their rosaries...
I told a few of them that praying this way is not how it should be done, only Jesus can save people...of course, they don't listen to me as they have been doing this for years and years...
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
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lonlesol
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I will start sounding like a broken record, sorry about that...
But...this is so frustrating, I need to get this out of my system as it is eating me alive!...again!...
A few hours before my baby son died, a priest came to the hospital. He told me that if my son hadn't been baptized in time, he would not go to heaven. He was mad that I didn't ask for a priest sooner!...and foolish me, I believed him and it made me soooo upset at God for ten years!...I am soooooo sorry Father...
And, when I had my daughter baptized, I waited until she was six months old because we would come home to Montreal around that time of year. I was told that she was getting a little too old to get baptized!...
My soon to be ex-husband is convinced that he doesn't have to read the Bible and pray for others, he finds this stupid and useless...He doesn't even believe that the Bible was inspired by God to men...
He permits our 15 year old daughter to have sex as long as she uses a condom!...and drink and do whatever she wants - in his mind, there is nothing wrong with this and his foster-mother and foster-sister agree with him!...I have lost custody of my daughter because of my Christian beliefs!!!...he does not believe that hell exists, and he believes in evolution...he also believes that there is nothing after death...and so on, and so on and so on...and he calls himself a saved/non-practicing/Christian/Catholic!...What a bunch of Nonsense!!!...
I feel trapped in a world where there is no justice and I can't do anything about it except wait and pray!!!...
If this post is not appropriate David, if it sounds too rude, please let me know and I will stop...
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
I am going by conversations with a Catholic friend, who told me that she did NOT have to pray for her unsaved husband because she would pray him out of purgatory after he died. She believes that her father who was not saved was in purgatory for 14 years
Her Priest told her is was a sin if she missed Mass. She also said her Priest said that it was a sin to read the King James Bible.
I do believe the Catholic Church will be greatly used by the anti-Christ is more about ceremonies that about serving Jesus.
“When praying the Rosary, we
approach Christ through Mary.
It is a special way of praying
to God that honors Mary.”
Jesus is our High Priest we do not need to pray to Mary to pray for us. Saying a number of Rosary prayers for punishment does not cleanse us from our sins. Repentance through Jesus brings us forgiveness of sins. Saying 10 Hail Mary’s does nothing but take time.
I am trying to help you. When I say to you to come out of the Catholic Church and get in to a Bible believing and teaching Church, I am telling you this in love.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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desertdweller
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I used to think that the Catholic Church was the '***** of Babylon' and all that....then I found out that what Protestants believe about the Catholic faith is just false....for example, they don't worship Mary (that would be heresy).
But I don't get the impression that this community is acutally welcoming to people of all Christian faiths who love, more than all else, Christ. Forgive me in advance if I misinterpret you all, but telling me you know what I need....when you've never probably actually sat down with a Catholic priest and asked him about all the things you THINK Catholics believe (and don't) - is just prejudice.
Bye.
I'm sure you all won't miss me.
DD
Posts: 51 | Registered: Feb 2007
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TEXASGRANDMA
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The Catholic Church does a great disservice to God.
For one thing they teach purgatory which is a lie.
For another they teach that if you are baptized as a baby that you go to Heaven. Now don't get me wrong, I believe all babies go to Heaven, but getting baptized as a baby doesn't send adults to Heaven. After a certain age every child either accepts Jesus as their Savior or they go to Hell.
We do not need to confess our sins to a Priest. The Bible says we as children of God can go boldly to the throne of God. Yes, I do believe that there are Christians in the Catholic Church in spite of all the bad teaching the Catholic Church teaches. A Christian should run from the Catholic Church and get in a good Bible preaching teaching Church.
The prayer of the Rosary is also against the Bible teaching. We are not to say words over and over like the heathen when we pray. Jesus said that Himself.
Praying to Mary is not right either. Mary is not the author of our salvation. Only Jesus can save.
I respect your right to go to the Church of your choice, but you are on dangerous ground getting your spiritual guidance from the Catholic Church.
betty
Hbr 4:16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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desertdweller
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Welll, I used to be Baptist, but now I'm Catholic......
I think people need different denominations, depending on their particular situation. I see error and truth in all the denominations. I know many Catholics who in Baptist terminology are 'saved' - the Catholic term is 'conversion'.
DD
Posts: 51 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Primoa1970
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posted
I agree with you 100%.....
Baptism is not a requirement for salvation...it is simply the outward sign of an inward conversion.
Babies cannot decipher right from wrong.
Very good point.....
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1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Posts: 639 | From: Orlando, FL | Registered: Feb 2003
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lonlesol
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I am a former Catholic as well...
One thing that I never agreed with the Catholic religion is baptism of babies that the Catholic priests perform, that is false teaching. It isn't necessary if they die when they are still babies...they know nothing about right and wrong as they are much too young, and they know nothing about Jesus and making choices...baptism is a testimony of faith, babies know nothing about faith!...
Parents cannot save their children this way, even if they wanted to!...
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
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Primoa1970
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Yes it's true......the sacraments were embedded into my head as a child. But thanks be to God at the age of 30 (7 years ago), the Holy Spirit entered in and opened my eyes so that I could see the truth......hence, I got saved by the grace of God.
How is it that Catholics still hold to the belief in Purgatory?
Hebrews 9:27 says this: "For it has been appointed for man to die once...after this, the judgment"
Folks....we who know the Lord personally also know that there is no "time of cleansing" on the other side after we die. The work was finished on the cross at Calvary. If this were not the case then the atoning work of Christ would not be enough. It would also render His sacrifice null and void. When Christ proclaimed "It is finished"......folks....it was finished!
We are saved by grace through faith and not by works.
As a former Catholic, I believed in this lie about a place called Purgatory myself. I pray for the Catholic....that God would open their eyes to the truth. Thank God for His Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth.
-Primo
Your thoughts or comments?
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1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Posts: 639 | From: Orlando, FL | Registered: Feb 2003
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