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Topic: Is baptism a requirement for salvation?
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Water Baptism - What does it symbolize?
According to the Bible, the symbolism of baptism declares that three things happen to believers who are baptized:
(1) they die with Christ to their old self;
(2) they rise with Christ to become a new creature; and
(3) they are incorporated in their new life with a living community which looks for the coming of the Lord (Romans 6:1-11). Contrary to what some denominations teach, it seems obvious that a Christian's baptism must necessarily require a responsible decision to accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, and therefore, must be delayed until an age of reason or discretion (knowing right from wrong within God's perspective).
In short, Jesus Christ commands baptism for His followers. Although the act of baptism does not cause eternal salvation, it seems that any believer who refuses baptism should truly examine his or her conversion.
"Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I will be with you always, to the very end of the age'" (Matthew 28:18-20).
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Thunderz7
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Member # 31
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posted
Two theives were crucified at the time that Yeshua was,
one on each side;
one did not see his own guilt,
he mocked Yeshua.
The other thief saw his own guilt,
he realized who Yeshua really was,
he repented,
he asked Yeshua to remember him,
no guile was found in him.
Yeshua made him this promise
(a promise to all us theives who act likewise),
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Yeshua gave the thief His Word,
The WORD clothed the naked thief with this promise,
the thief was still alive when-
John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
The thief was baptized in the promise,
baptized in the WORD,
clothed in the promise,
clothed in the word,
baptized in the blood and water that flowed from the side of the WORD.
The thief had the washing of living water by the WORD-
Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
The thief had living water, the water of life,
what did he need with H2O?
We say that His blood is enough;
but we deny that the water He shed with that blood is good enough.
The thief WAS baptized,
much more so than we it seems.
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Parousia
Advanced Member
Member # 6448
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WKUHilltopper:
quote:
Originally posted by Primoa1970:
Many scriptures point to the fact that when people got saved, they were also baptised. If we are saved by grace through faith.....then baptism should only be an outward sign to the world of our decision for Christ, correct?
I like to use the thief on the cross as an example....he didn't have an opportunity to get water immersed.
Or what about people who get saved and then suddenly die shortly thereafter? Are they doomed to hell because they didn't get baptised? I think not if it's by grace, correct?
What are your thoughts on this?
Let me also add that I got baptised in 2002...2 years after I gave my life to the Lord. I totally agree with baptism and would recommend it to any new believer.....but not for salvation. Our salvation is secure in Christ.
Baptism is an act of submission. It's because our Lord did it. It doesn't save. The thief on the cross certainly wasn't baptised.
Jesus commanded it..thats good enough for me
Posts: 68 | From: Texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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WKUHilltopper
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Member # 5472
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Primoa1970:
Many scriptures point to the fact that when people got saved, they were also baptised. If we are saved by grace through faith.....then baptism should only be an outward sign to the world of our decision for Christ, correct?
I like to use the thief on the cross as an example....he didn't have an opportunity to get water immersed.
Or what about people who get saved and then suddenly die shortly thereafter? Are they doomed to hell because they didn't get baptised? I think not if it's by grace, correct?
What are your thoughts on this?
Let me also add that I got baptised in 2002...2 years after I gave my life to the Lord. I totally agree with baptism and would recommend it to any new believer.....but not for salvation. Our salvation is secure in Christ.
Baptism is an act of submission. It's because our Lord did it. It doesn't save. The thief on the cross certainly wasn't baptised.
Posts: 259 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2006
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Aaron
unregistered
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posted
That was good Eden.
I would say, as I already have, that there are two different salivations we are dealing with (which helps to explain some of the confusion): one for Kingdom living, the other from the pursuit of our enemy.
Another thing about water baptism: it's about burial only. We say it's about burial AND resurrection but that's wrong. We bring them up out of the water so they can breathe. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
"Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection."
Aaron
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Eden
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posted
I think it is important to realize that Philip said YOU MAY be baptized to the eunuch. Paul did NOT say YOU MUST be baptized to the eunuch.
Salvation is separate from baptism in water H2O. Salvation is received just by believing that Jesus died on my behalf and rose again on the third day, and to state it so with the mouth:
Romans 10
9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
But, if there is time and understanding, a water H2O baptism MAY be done, but why?
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:37-39 (in Context) Acts 2 (Whole Chapter)
Acts 8:36
And as they went on their way, they {the eunuch and Philip} came to a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what hinders me from being baptized?
Repent, be baptized, and you shall receive the Holy Spirit.
This "be baptized" must refer to a water H2O baptism, when, after repenting, or thus after believing that what God said was true, it seems to have been part of the ritual. Repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Spirit But why be baptized?
Watchman Nee proposes that it is to acknowledge to God and to the angels and to earthlings, that I, the human being, myself now understand that I am "dead and buried with Christ" and I signal that knowledge by having myself baptized in water (my burial with Christ) and my coming up out of the water (my being raised with Christ and now having access to the Holy Spirit), by the signal of water baptism I in turn from MY being show God and the angels and the earthlings "where I'm coming from now".
Baptism is thus NOT required for salvation.
God provided salvation by Himself and salvation is accepted by a human the Romans 10:9 way.
Then later, or also right away if the teaching has been good, a person MAY want to get baptized (you may), to show God and the angels and earthlings that he how sees what God has said about him, and by baptism says "I'm on the same page", so BURY ME and RAISE ME UP on the last day.
But why? I still don't see why such a baptism in water H2O would have been or still be necessary.
There is, for instance, this in the Bible:
2 Samuel 14:20
To fetch about this form of speech has your servant Joab done this thing: and my lord is wise, according to the wisdom of an angel of God, to know all things that are in the earth.
So what could have been the purpose of this water H2O baptism? Was it required or was it voluntary, or neither of those two?
Be blessed, everyone,
Eden
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Aaron
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eduardo Grequi:
If Jesus did not say, He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, then I would not be keen to believe in which I am persuaded to be so.
Then how do you account for my belief?
Simply put: there is no question about what is says. The issue is "what does it mean?"
Aaron
P.S. To note: I was once a "have to be wet for salvation" believer. It was a reformed Church of Christ minister (after his prompt expulsion from the pulpit I might add) who helped me see the light on this issue. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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TEXASGRANDMA
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If you are at the bedside of a dying person who is unsaved, you should share the Gospel with them. If they are convicted, then the Holy Spirit is inviting them to be saved. At that point you should pray with them and guide them to pray to be saved. The Holy Spirit will only convict those who can be saved. The same goes for someone who is bedridden. If the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin and they accept Jesus as their Savior then they are saved.
A Christian who is physically able to be baptized should be encouraged to do so out of their love for Jesus. Our Pastor baptized a blind woman and a mentally challenged child who both accepted Jesus as their Savior. We even had a woman get baptized who was in a wheel chair. Her husband carried her. But the reality is there are those who are paralyzed from the neck down and can not get down into the water. We have a man at our Church who is on oxygen. God knows the hearts of man. It is not our place to judge someone who is not able to get baptized because of handicaps.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Eduardo Grequi
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Member # 3984
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posted
The thief on the cross was under the old convenant, while the Ethopian Eunich was living in the time of grace. The thief on the cross was made righteous because of his actions. Jesus being by this thief was suffering and bleeding, but was not yet dead and resurrected. Abraham, Issac etc.. these people as the bible says, their actions demostrated their faith. The church age or age of grace began after Jesus' resurrected and not before then because Jesus conquered the sting of death. The power of baptism is not the issue, it the gospel. An outward picture after believing is water baptism, to protray the very thing that occurred inwardly. If Jesus did not say, He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, then I would not be keen to believe in which I am persuaded to be so. And I do believe like the man beside the pool who was maim when the water was stired could not descend but found grace in the eye of the Lord thru his faith. Romans 6 speaks about baptism. Baptism is the inwardly must occur first before the baptism outwardly.
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eden
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posted
Hi, Thunderz7. I was surprised by your answer re Philip and the eunuch. You said:
<<So, the eunuch came out of the water rejoicing, but Philip was found in Ashdod/Azotus.
<<When Philip did as the Angel of the Lord said, he found someone in need of instruction in the scriptures.
<<When Philip did as the Spirit told him, he was then able to instruct this man the scriptures.
<<When Philip did as the eunuch commanded, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip up and separated the two.
Eden here: It seemed to me that Philip went down to the water with the eunuch VERY WILLINGLY:
Acts 8
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what hinders me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, you may. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Notice, Thunderz7, that Philip BAPTIZED him in water H2O. Philip must have been instructed in the liberty which we have in Christ Jesus and that new Christians were NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW.
Along the way in the chariot, Philip had been expounding the way of Jesus to Philip, and Philip would surely have REINSTRUCTED the willing eunuch in the liberty the eunuch now had IN CHRIST JESUS.
There is NO WAY that Philip the evangelist would have baptized this eunuch if this water H2O was NOT part of the Christian ritual, not of works, lest one should boast, but of saying to the world, both physical and spiritual, “hey, I understand what God has done for me now” and I will show it by water H2O baptism”
Philip said:
37 And Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, THEN you may.
This is therefore NOT tied to the law but to IF YOU BELIEVE with all your heart.
Thunderz7, you also said:
<<Is it ever recorded of Philip using water baptism again?>>
Eden here: No, but it does say that from Azotus Philip continued preaching and teaching in every city and I BET HE BAPTIZED MORE BELIEVERS there:
Acts 8
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities till he came to Caesarea.
Azotus was in the north end of the Gaza Strip and from there Philip continued north preaching and teaching, and NO DOUBT BAPTIZING other believers, eh?
Be blessed, everyone.
Eden
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yahsway
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posted
Thanks TG and Aaron, I also agree with you. Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Thanks for your reply Aaron. So would that person on their death bed that accepts Jesus as savior without baptism by water still go to heaven/make it into the kingdom?
Yes. The baptism that is required for salvation unto Kingdom life is completed by the King Himself; Jesus Christ.
"'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'"
Aaron
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
I believe that if a person accepts Jesus on their death bed he or she would go to Heaven. The biggest reason I believe this, is the Bible makes it clear that we can only come to Christ through an invitation by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would not invite someone if there was not a hope that they could accept. In my Bible Study class a couple of weeks ago, our Pastor told us that when someone comes to him with fears that they have committed the unpardonable sin, he asks them if they feel guilty. If they say yes, then he tells them they did not for if they feel guilty the Holy Spirit is still dealing with them. I put this because just like in a death bed setting, the Holy Spirit will only deal with a person who can be saved. To believe that a person can only go to Heaven unless there are baptized is to say someone who is bedridden or paralyzed could not be saved.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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yahsway
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Thanks for your reply Aaron. So would that person on their death bed that accepts Jesus as savior without baptism by water still go to heaven/make it into the kingdom?
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Aaron
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
okay i want to ask this question. Is water baptism necessary say for one who accepts Jesus on their death bed?
Well, here's my thought: it *is* necessary to cut off the enemy's pursuit of you. This is for our sakes...so that we may live free from the enemy reminding us of our failures and short-comings. One dying on his/her death bed would benefit very little from water baptism, I would think.
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yahsway
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okay i want to ask this question. Is water baptism necessary say for one who accepts Jesus on their death bed?
What about the theif on the cross?
Are there allowances for such circumstances?
John said that indeed he baptised with water but there was one coming who would baptise with fire and the Holy Spirit.
The question presented by Eden was how did the eunuch know about water baptism and my answer to her is because he knew about the ritual cleansing by water thru the Mikvah baths that were thruout Jerusalem.
Yes, Jesus has commanded that we go into all the world, preach the gospel, and baptise those who accept this gospel message in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
But are there allowances for those who accept Him before they take their last breath.
I know from the Church of Christs standpoint you must be baptised in water or you do not make it into the kingdom.
That maybe so, but you can immerse your flesh 100 times in water and if your heart is not right, and you are not born again, what does washing the flesh do?
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Aaron
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eduardo Grequi:
"As the father loved Me, I also haved loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." JOHN 15:9-10
Jesus has plainly said it, If you love Me keep my commandments. What are his commndments. Since Jesus being the Son of God and was there at the beginning creating the earth and heaven (John 1:1-4), then it should be concluded Jesus' commandments are the same as those passed on to Moses.
This is why you cannot see clearly: you believe the law was originally intended for God's sons. It is quite clear, if you can see it, that a covenant existed prior to the giving of the law. This covenant was the same covenant that Melchizedek ministered. Golly, there were even priests prior to the giving of the law. How can you have priests without a ministry? You can't. You first need a covenant to minister. This was the covenant given to Christ from God...the same one that gave birth to the promise given to Abraham.(Gal. 3:17 "And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ...)
The law was given only as a guardian because of transgressions...until..."until" signifies a finite time frame with an end. Do you know what event marked the end of the significance of the law in the life of the chosen?(Gal. 3)
Furthermore, "obeying someone" requires hearing from that someone. Why do you think the gift of prophesy was given to the church? It was given SO THAT the gifted could teach the saints to hear from the Lord. And by hearing (this is a day-to-day hearing, Spirit-to-spirit) they could obey. So when the Lord says to you "Go to that man and give him your coat" we can go in obedience to the Lord.
quote:
Even before the Jewish nation was ever establish there was an universal command and that being Honor the Sabbath and keep it holy.
Correct. And Jesus IS the Sabbath for all the redeemed.
When you erase the error of legalism you see, instead of a day to "worship" and memorize scripture, the promise of redemption BEFORE man was created. God knew man would sin and so He planned of his redemption BEFORE the time of man.
quote:
What happened on the day Jesus was baptized by his counsin John the baptist?
Jesus met John in the middle of the Jordan River. Joh knew who Jesus was concerning the deity factor. John knew he was the Christ.
What happened was this: the perfect sacrfice (Jesus) was being prepared by the priest (John). All sacrifices were washed by the priests prior to delivering up on the alter. Jesus was presenting himself to Father as a "living sacrifice". Does this phrase ring a bell? It should, because we are commanded to do the same: "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."
Wait a sec...that's not one of the 10 commandments. That's not even part of the law. And yet Christ, through Paul, is revealing one of the commandments of the Lord to us.
You know, this stuff of "law this" and "10 Commandments that" is so aberrant to the Lord I wonder why He has tolerated for so long. I expect that the shaking required to dislodge these teachings from his people will be quite severe. Drop it now, if you are willing. Save yourself some heart ache.
Aaron
P.S. But what of water baptism? It is for salvation...but not the salvation for eternal life. It is for the salvation from our enemy who continually pursues us. It is for the sake of our conscience. This salvation is shown at the crossing of the Red Sea and typified by the salvation of the ark. (1Peter 3:21-22)
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Eduardo Grequi
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posted
Jesus said in the book of Mark-
"He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, and he that believes not is condemned" Read Mark 16:14-18
(Mar 16:14) Afterward He appeared to the Eleven as they reclined. And He reproached their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
(Mar 16:15) And He said to them, Go into all the world, proclaim the gospel to all the creation.
(Mar 16:16) He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.
(Mar 16:17) And miraculous signs will follow to those believing these things: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak new tongues;
(Mar 16:18) they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will be well.
(Mar 16:19) Then indeed, after speaking to them, the Lord was taken up into Heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(Mar 16:20) And going out, they proclaimed everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the Word by miraculous signs following. Amen.
Sorry - If Jesus said it then that should settles it, any man who adds or takes away will be accursed. You must be baptized after believing and not the other way around. If you are, you have put the cart before the horse and looks ridicolous. The bible is interpreted based on the Messiah words and not mans word first then the Messiah. Even the great commission states Go ye into all the world baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I rather follow Jesus and his words.
Advanced Member
Member # 3984
posted March 22, 2007 04:48 AM
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The deciding factor of grace is your walk with the Lord and not your words only. Remember Jesus is the cornerstone. We as Christians are made steadfeast because of Jesus. I had posted the following on another thread.
I thought I would share my paper with you all!
The false teaching and misguided doctrines of the church are really a tough adverary to beat and to bear!As far as I cold remember when I became a believer in Jesus Christ, I always assume that if Jesus did it, we should too. However, that is not always the case with the church. The chuch has decided to advocate doctrines of men, forgetting their foundation in Jesus or barely having any gimpse of truth in it. In many churches today, we have baptized babies even before they could ever make a competent decision for Jesus. We have moved the day of worship from the Sabbath to Sunday and most Christians sAy the sabbath is not as important today as it was back then but Jesus continually says:
"If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He ma abide with you forever- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." JOHN 14:15-18
"As the father loved Me, I also haved loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." JOHN 15:9-10
Jesus has plainly said it, If you love Me keep my commandments. What are his commndments. Since Jesus being the Son of God and was there at the beginning creating the earth and heaven (John 1:1-4), then it should be concluded Jesus' commandments are the same as those passed on to Moses. Even before the Jewish nation was ever establish there was an universal command and that being Honor the Sabbath and keep it holy. This is the first command of duty given to us Genesis 2:1-3,because God rested from a 6 day of work, we should too. Our rest must include praising and worshipping God. Jesus is still the Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:27-28) The Sabbath was made for Him. Our joy and righteousness is established in faith in Jesus Christ alone.
Traditions of men have eventually taken over the sweet sound of Jesus' name and they have made the salvation of the Lord burdensome, corrupt and removed the simplicity of "Without Faith it is impossible to believe in God". Is it any wonder the unsaved world look at the so-called christian and say, "If that is what is meant to become a followe of Jesus, Forget it!" Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. For every law of man whether in Church dogma or not, is a continual degradation and elimination of the Spirit of truth and salvation, "THE LOVE OF MONEY" has taken root in secular and religious societies to the point that each mimick one another unto bladant apostacy. SALVATION is the same as it was in the days of Jesus while He was on earth. FOR BY GRACE ARE YOU SAVED THROUGH FAITH;AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES : IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD: NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SOULD BOAST-Ephesians 2:8-9. There is coming a day when Jesus will judge the world, and He will say, "Depart from me fo I never knew you-" NOT EVERYONE who saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heave; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is heaven."-Matthew 7:21 Ye must be born again- and if you love Me receive Me be baptized unto faith in the Lord. We as Christans must be like the faithful Bereans and search the scriptures daily and discern every teaching thrown at us. If it concurs with the Word of God in its entirety, then it is an holy oracle of God. If it does not agree with the scriptures, destroy it, get rid of it . And do not propagate it at all- unless you teach the faithful to be cautions and know the advesary.
As christians (baptists) we are taught this particular saying-"Since the thief on the cross, was not baptized in water, neither should we need to be baptized in water if we choose to." However each and everytime people came to the Lord and repented first, then they were baptized. HELLO~! Check It Out!! This baptism was the key to seal and make a stand for righteousness.
Will you meet Jesus in the Jordan, and follow His example! Repent of your sins and declare this day that Jesus is Lord, and He has forgiven you of your sins through the shedding of His blood forever! Jesus says- IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" Follow Him to the Jordan!
Because of sin, there is no way anyone of us could keep the entire commandmens layed before us, this is why Jesus came.
Romans 3:10-11 As it is written: There is none righteous, no not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1st- Acknowledge God! God is the creator, Our God!
2nd- You must have faith in God, that He alone established the Way!
3rd- Understand Sin has separated us from God. God will not accept us as holy!
What happened on the day Jesus was baptized by his counsin John the baptist?
Jesus met John in the middle of the Jordan River. Joh knew who Jesus was concerning the deity factor. John knew he was the Christ. Just before Jesus went out to John they had a discussion about two baptism which occured when Jesus was actually immersed in the water! 1) baptism of Water and 2) baptism of Spirit. Luke 3:21-22
TO BE CONTINUE
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Eduardo Grequi
Advanced Member
Member # 3984
posted June 19, 2005 01:42 AM
Luke 3:21-22 " Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was open, AND the HOLY GHOST dscended in a bodily shape like a dove upon Him, and a Voice came from heaven, which said, "THOU ART MY BELOVED SON; IN THEE I AM WELL BLESSED.
(The one and unique time that the Father,the Son, and Holy Spirit is present as God.)
Now that we know above all that JESUS is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, we must come to a personal decision!
4th Understand that sin has a penalty and a price! IT MUST BE PAID FOR! We either need to accept the payment from Jesus as a gift (John 3:16) OR attempt to buy our salvation with our works, HOWEVER ONE sin committed is the same of committing offense against the entire holy law of God, HIS commandments.
5th and final JESUS came to save us, and save us from a literal HELL, separation from HIM, GOD.
2Thess 1:8-9 IN flaming fire taking vengeance on them that obey not the gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.
NOW that we see what is before us, we must come to decision that will change your destiny. WILL YOU MEET HIM IN THE JORDAN, more exactly we must repent first (ROMANS 10:9-10) and be baptized by the Spirit and prove obedience thru the water.
WILL YOU MEET HIM IN THE JORDAN?
Jesus said in Revelation 3:20 "BEHOLD I stand at the door and knock, if any man hear my voce, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Jesus wants to meet you, Will You meet him in the Jordan?
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Thunderz7
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Eden,
I am not really answering the questions on Philip and the eunuch;
I am adding more questions;
it is my take on the subject at this point in my walk with Yeshua.
Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch -
Acts ch 8.
8:26, the Angel of the Lord tells Philip to go south into the desert in Gaza.
8:27, Philip did as instructed by the angel of the Lord, and came upon a man of great authority,
the man in charge of all the treasure of Queen Candace of Ethiopia.
>(meeting and converting the eunuch, is most likely the reason Philip was sent south)<
>[It is important to remember that this is an important man of influence and authority]<
8:29, the Spirit tells Philip to go near and join himself to the chariot of the eunuch.
8:30, Philip does as instructed by the Spirit.
8:31-35, Philip explains, expounds and enlightens the eunuch in the truth of the gospel.
8:36, the eunuch ask about being water baptized.
8:37, this verse is not in the oldest text.
None the less, Philip tells the eunuch, "you may/mayest",
from Strong's mayest = it is lawful
>[at this point Jesus had aready fulflled the righeousness of the law]<
>{one who subjects himself to any one point of the law is subject to all the law}<
8:38, the eunuch commands that the chatiot stop, and he and Philip go to the water where Philip baptizes the eunuch in water.
>[it is obvious that the eunuch is the one who commanded, it is his chariot, his driver, he is the one of great authority and influence]<
8:39, on coming out of the water, the eunuch and Phillip were seperated, to speak no more;
Philip being caught up by the Spirit of the Lord.
The eunuch went on his way rejoicing.
>[Was Philip caught up because his work there was finished?]<
>[Was Philip caught up because he had fallen under the influence of a man of authority who commanded him to do "the lawful" thing?]<
8:40,Philip was found at Azotus.
>[remember the eunuch left the water in v.39 rejoicing, the next word in scripture is "BUT",
meaning either Philip was no longer on the way, or that Philip was not rejoicing]<
Azotus, a city in Palestine.
In the Old Testament, known as Ashdod, a city of the Philistines,
the city of the tempel of Dagon,
the half man/half fish, water god of the Philistines.
Ashdod means, ravage, ravager or ravaged.
Palestine- from the Hebrew Pelesheth = rolling.
Pelesheth from the root Palash = to roll in the dust, to wallow self.
Palestine, once known as Canaan.
Canaan, from the Hebrew = humiliated.
When the Philistines captured the Ark of the Covenant and took the Ark to Ashdod, and placed the Ark before the idol of Dagon, in the house of Dagon;
they returned to find the water god Dagon, ravaged, humiliated, wallowing in the dust, in Ashdod Palistine.
So, the eunuch came out of the water rejoicing, but Philip was found in Ashdod/Azotus.
When Philip did as the Angel of the Lord said,
he found someone in need of instruction in the scriptures.
When Philip did as the Spirit told him, he was then able to instruct this man the scriptures.
When Philip did as the eunuch commanded, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip up and seperated the two.
Was Philip found in the place/position of Dagon?
Is it ever recorded of Philip using water baptism again?
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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Hi, Thunderz7. You basically said in your last post that John’s baptism was a water H2O baptism, but the baptism for those who believed was the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Eden here:
If that is the case, how come the eunuch, after HAVING believed that Jesus was the Son of God (and thus was eligible for the baptism of the Holy Spirit), why did the eunuch then REQUEST WATER H2O baptism AFTER he believed that Jesus was the Son of God, and also, why did Philip NOT REBUKE him for wanting that OLD John’s baptism?
Acts 8
30 And Philip ran there to him, and heard him read the prophet Isaias, and said, Do you understand what you are reading?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired that Philip come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray you, of whom speaks the prophet this? Of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached Jesus to him.
36 And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water; and the eunuch said, See, here is water {H2O}; what hinders me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, you may. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 Then he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water {H2O}, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, so that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Thunderz7, can you please explain to me, in light of your post, why Philip baptized the eunuch in watery H2O AFTER the eunuch had believed, and Philip not only did not rebuke him but aided him in this H2O baptism? As Philip said:
Mark 8
37 Then Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, {then} you may.
Thanks, Eden
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Thunderz7
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yahsway said-
quote:
Baptism was not a NT concept.
So true, water baptism and cermonial washings were all Old Covenant works to purify the flesh in a temporary manner.
The New Covenant concept is to move on from that to a higher level.
Hebrews 5:10-6:3
5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
T7
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yahsway
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Amen Thunder! I have always said that you can immerse your flesh in water 100 times but that is really no sign of being born again.
Flesh and blood do not inherit the kingdom of God ya know.
Several years ago I was speaking with a lady at work who is a member of the Church of Christ. She said we must be baptized in water to enter heaven.
So I asked her, when someone in their assembly hears the word and accepts Yeshua as savior do you Baptize them right then or do you wait until later so others of their family members can be there. She said sometimes they wait. So I continued and asked her what if that person is killed on the way home from church service and your pastor did not Baptise him before he left. Will he still go to heaven?
She paused and said NO, that person would not go to heaven. So I said to her that in that case, her pastor failed to do his duty to baptise him before he left the church service.
I mean if the pastor believes you must be baptized in water, why would he take such risks as to let that person leave the building without being baptised? We all know that anything can happen, a heart attack, a car wreck ect..
She said she was going to have to talk to her pastor about this because she could see where they are teaching one thing (having to be baptised by water to enter the kingdom) but that many times they wait to baptise the person until that night or wait until another day.
Sorry for rambling on. Just wanted to say that Thunders post is very enlightning and so true.
Shalom
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Thunderz7
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Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
In each of these scriptures John's baptism is mentioned as is Yeshua's baptism';
John's baptism is "with" water (natural water=H2O)
In each of these scriptures the word "but" appears after John's connection to H2O;
(but = something other than, a difference).
Each of these scriptures tells us that Yeshua's baptism is at a higher level than John's baptism;
not the same,
not with the same "element",
something other than John's baptism,
dfferent from John's baptism,
on a bigger scope than John's baptism.
John said-
John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
v.1 - This scripture says these men were not only followers but disciples.
v.2- These men were believers, who had not been taught of the Holy Ghost,
v.3- They had received John's baptism,
baptism with H2O.
v.4- Paul tells them of a higher level of baptism.
v.5- When they "heard" they were baptized;
upon being immersed with the WORD,
not upon being ducked in H2O.
v.6- the Holy Ghost came on them with the laying on of hands,
not with immersion with H2O.
And still today we we look to John's baptism
not to the baptism of Yeshua.
Still today we we need to decrease that Yeshua might increase.
Still today we struggle in the natural, instead of seeing a higher level.
T7
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yahsway
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posted
Eden, the eunuch knew about Mikvah which is the Hebrew word for immersion, a ritual cleansing or purification by water.
Baptism was not a NT concept.
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Eden
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Quote originally made by Eden:
By going UNDER WATER in baptism, you show God and the angels and earthly onlookers that you agree with God, that you count yourself BURIED, and then for more breath, you come up out of the water “unto newness of life”, by which symbol you show the LORD God and Jesus and the angels and the Holy Spirit OPENLY whose side you are now on.
Thunderz7 answered: So by my works I will show the all-knowing GOD of all something HE doesn't know?
Eden here: Good points, Thunderz7. God and the angels DO ALREADY KNOW that I’m a bornagain Christian, and the angels know too, both the good angels of YHWH and the belial angels of Satan known that I AM a bornagain Christian.
Quote originally made by Eden:
But by baptism you show the world, but ESPECIALLY THE ANGELIC WORLD, both the good and the bad angels, on WHOSE SIDE YOU ARE.
Thunderz7 answered: Looks like GOD keeps those in HIS presence informed of us without our works-
Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.
There is joy among the angels of God, yes, but is there joy among the belial angels of Satan? Probably not.
And then there is this perhaps too. What do I KNOW AS A BORNAGAIN CHRISTIAN about being a bornagain Christian?
Although I am saved, I’m still being taught of God with the help of His Holy Spirit what promises I have received, and all that.
Now God KNOWS ME IN TOTAL, but the angels DO NOT KNOW ALL ABOUT ME and eventhough the angels know that I am saved, they angels need to SEE what each bornagain Christian is actually LEARNING IN CHRIST as the Christian walk begins.
As such, I think when a saved person determines to undergo BAPTISM after the saved person has understood from the Bible that God has crucified the saved person WITH JESUS WHILE JESUS WAS ON THE CROSS, to that the saved person realizes that he or she is DEAD IN CHRIST, died with Christ, as the Bible puts it “of Him {God} are we in Christ Jesus”.
So when a bornagain Christian walking on earth understands that he is had died, then he asks the Lord TO BURY HIM. And by baptizing himself or herself in water, he or she shows to the ANGELS, both belial and good, how the bornagain Christian NOW VIEWS HIMSELF while in the earth.
After burying himself, the saved person rises up again out of the water, symbolically saying to the good and belial angels that this bornagain earth person now ACTIVELY BELIEVES in a future life through bodily resurrection and receiving an immortal body like Jesus had. If I were belial angels, I would not like to see that baptism ritual repeated too often.
As it is, thanks be to God, thousands of bornagain Christians on this earth have shown forth to God and the angels on WHAT side they are on. It is not a work, Thunderz7, but a PRIVILEGE to show. Satan hates it every time he sees one.
ON the other hand, according to Philip, all the above is nonsense (except for Stan hating to see the baptisms) because Philip only made the the eunuch say "I believe that Jesus is the Son of God" and then Philip said:
Acts 8:36
36 And as they {Philip and the eunuch} went on their way, they came to a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what hinders me to be baptized?
Acts 8:37
37 And Philip said {to him}, If you believe with all your heart, then you may {be baptized}. And he {the eunuch} answered, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Acts 8:38
38 And he {the eunuch} commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
But it does NOT explain WHY the eunuch would want to get BAPTIZED once he believed that Jesus was the Son of God.
Could the eunuch have undertood that he needed to BURY HIMSELF from the explanation of the Bible that Philip had given him during their time together, namely,
Acts 8:35
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and [b]began at the same scripture and preached Jesus to him {to the eunuch}.
Can Philip had told the eunuch had the eunuch had been "put in Christ by God" and that he was "dead in Christ" but would be "raised from the dead with newness of life, which could be shown by doing baptism???
I don't get [b]what the eunuch knew for him to suddenly WANT WATER BAPTISM. What can baptism have meant to the eunuch that the eunuch suddenly WANTED BAPTISM?
It's still a mystery to me.
Be blessed, Thunderz7,
Eden
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Thunderz7
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quote:
By going UNDER WATER in baptism, you show God and the angels and earthly onlookers that you agree with God, that you count yourself BURIED, and then for more breath, you come up out of the water “unto newness of life”, by which symbol you show the LORD God and Jesus and the angels and the Holy Spirit OPENLY whose side you are now on.
So by my works I will show the all-knowing GOD of all something HE doesn't know?
quote:
But by baptism you show the world, but ESPECIALLY THE ANGELIC WORLD, both the good and the bad angels, on WHOSE SIDE YOU ARE.
Looks like GOD keeps those in HIS presence informed of us without our works-
Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
T7
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lonlesol
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quote:
You’ll become more of a target for Satan,
I really hope that I wont be more of a target for Satan than I already am!...I have gone through a Lot since 2004!... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I am going through a divorce right now And I have lost custody of my daughter as of her own request because of all this!...They think that I have gone crazy, my daughter (15 years old) even thinks that I am mentally sick, which is far from the truth, she believes what her father and his family members tell her about me!...
quote:
but you’ll also be the object of greater affection from Our Father.
And knowing that always makes me cry, in a good way of course...
quote:
I would do it again, but then that is just me.
I have been thinking about it for the last three years...I don't think that the first time counted since it wasn't my choice to begin with...
I was hoping with time that my husband would finally accept Jesus as his Saviour and that we would do it together but it hasn't happened and now I don't think it ever will be, considering that he has demanded a divorce and that we are no longer in speaking terms...we only communicate through our lawyers...
I will therefore do it again, by myself, once it will be possible at my Church...
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
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Eden
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I am still wondering if the first one does count or not...
Hi, lonelesol. You said:
I am still wondering if the first one does count or not...
Eden here:
Romans 10:9
9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
It sounds to me that you have confessed that Jesus is the Lord (the Son of God of LORD YHWH) and you believed it in your heart before you confessed it, therefore YOU ARE SAVED.
But by baptism you show the world, but ESPECIALLY THE ANGELIC WORLD, both the good and the bad angels, on WHOSE SIDE YOU ARE.
And the symbolism shown to the angels, both good and bad is this, in picture: you descend willingly under water, by which you acknowledge that God has indeed crucified you.
When you see that from God’s view, you are dead in Christ or dead with Christ, and so now YOU WANT TO BE BURIED.
By going UNDER WATER in baptism, you show God and the angels and earthly onlookers that you agree with God, that you count yourself BURIED, and then for more breath, you come up out of the water “unto newness of life”, by which symbol you show the LORD God and Jesus and the angels and the Holy Spirit OPENLY whose side you are now on.
It is an I AGREE WITH YOU GOD statement, made, not so much to earthlings, but much more to ANGELIC BEINGS who now ALL know openly whose side you are on. You’ll become more of a target for Satan, but you’ll also be the object of greater affection from Our Father.
With Christian love, Eden
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timspong
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quote:
Originally posted by lonlesol:
I was baptised in Jesus' name when I was a baby...I knew nothing about Jesus back then...I knew nothing between right and wrong...my parents had me baptised, they are Catholic. It was their belief that it was the thing to do, therefore, it was their choice, not mine...
I have accepted Jesus as my personal Saviour a lot later in life, in my fourties...from what I read here, my next step should be baptism, but I haven't had it done yet...
I am still wondering if the first one does count or not...
I have showed openly that I believe that Jesus died for my sins. I wrote it on a message board where a lot of people go to...and the people that know me at Church know that I believe, also does my family and friends, and so do the people where I work. I walk in faith...should that be enough or not?...God knows my heart...
It is a big subject with lots of debate on both sides. However, for a historical context and for the classic protestant view I would do a bit of research on the anabaptist movement of the 1500's. Many were martyred for their belief in re-baptizing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptists
I was baptized (Christened) as a baby in the UK in a Methodist church. However in the UK it is more traditional than religious and my parents are definitely not church goers. I got baptized again when I became “born again” @ 37. I didn’t even think twice about it. It never occurred to me that I shouldn’t do it because I was sprinkled as a kid.
One last thought. When I was baptized the second time, I had very little knowledge of God and was still very much a baby in Christ.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
I would do it again, but then that is just me.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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lonlesol
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I was baptised in Jesus' name when I was a baby...I knew nothing about Jesus back then...I knew nothing between right and wrong...my parents had me baptised, they are Catholic. It was their belief that it was the thing to do, therefore, it was their choice, not mine...
I have accepted Jesus as my personal Saviour a lot later in life, in my fourties...from what I read here, my next step should be baptism, but I haven't had it done yet...
I am still wondering if the first one does count or not...
I have showed openly that I believe that Jesus died for my sins. I wrote it on a message board where a lot of people go to...and the people that know me at Church know that I believe, also does my family and friends, and so do the people where I work. I walk in faith...should that be enough or not?...God knows my heart...
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timspong
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Parousia:
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
so Parousia,
was the thief crucified on the cross beside Yeshua saved ?
If just one person was saved without water baptism then "baptism is not a requirement for salvaltion".
now I believe any person that is Truly saved will obey the Lord in all things...
baptism included
Old classic argument...what you or millions do not realize...
The theif died under the old convenant..and the new way into heaven had not yet been..so Yes..the theif was saved..but henceforth men were baptized in Jesus name
Actually the theif died after Christ. So Christ paid for his sins. No one is saved under the law, so how did he get to heaven? Also people were baptised before the death of Christ.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
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timspong
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posted
IMO it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is the indication of one who is saved. In scripture there is no distinct order. In some cases people are baptised first and in other cases they are baptised after. Almighty God has the power to achieve our salvation regardless.
Baptism is not necessary for salvation but is a part of the sanctification process that is a lifelong consequence of being saved. Ie it is act of obedience that we are drawn to by scripture and the inner working of the Holy Spirit.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
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becauseHElives
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posted
Parousia, I tell you what you preach....
quote:
baptism + the Blood of Yeshua equals salvation.
I will preach nothing but the Blood of Yeshua equals salvtion and salvation equals a deep abiding desire to obey to every Command / Law of Yahweh and with the desire comes the power from Yahweh by the way of the Holy Spirit to perform all that is pleasing in Yahweh's sight. (the new birth, the new heart Yahweh places in the heart of a true born again believer.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Thunderz7
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posted
Parousia says quote:
Jesus commanded water baptism and so did the Apostles..easy anwser..
Where did Jesus command H2O?
Yeshua did "command" baptism, but I don't find H2O in those scriptures.
quote:
The theif died under the old convenant..and the new way into heaven had not yet been..so Yes..the theif was saved..but henceforth men were baptized in Jesus name
At what point do you see the new covenant complete?
Death?
Burial?
Resurrection?
Ascension?
Rest?
Yeshua died before the thief did,
the thief had his legs broken so he would die quicker,
Jesus, the Son of Man, was already dead.
The Lamb already slain.
Jesus/GOD had already said "it is finished".
Yeshua was stabbed, Blood and Water flowed out.(Jn.19:34)
There is your water, straight from the WORD.
Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Man's tradition holds natural H2O the equal of the Blood of Jesus.
Jesus gave the Water with the Blood,
HE is the Living Water,
HE is the Water of Life.
T7
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Parousia
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
so Parousia,
was the thief crucified on the cross beside Yeshua saved ?
If just one person was saved without water baptism then "baptism is not a requirement for salvaltion".
now I believe any person that is Truly saved will obey the Lord in all things...
baptism included
Old classic argument...what you or millions do not realize...
The theif died under the old convenant..and the new way into heaven had not yet been..so Yes..the theif was saved..but henceforth men were baptized in Jesus name
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becauseHElives
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posted
so Parousia,
was the thief crucified on the cross beside Yeshua saved ?
If just one person was saved without water baptism then "baptism is not a requirement for salvaltion".
now I believe any person that is Truly saved will obey the Lord in all things...
baptism included
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Parousia
Advanced Member
Member # 6448
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
baptism is not need for salvation, but a heart willing do do what ever is ask of an individual by the Holy Spirit is needed!
the heart of every issue is rhe issue of the heart!
Why would anyone not want to be baptized if the scripture declare it an ordinance of the church.....and there is nothing hindering ??????
Same goes for the ordinance of Lords Supper....
Same goes for the ordinance of head covering....
Same goes for the ordinance of foot washing.....
the only think that keeps a heart knowing it is examined and found in the true Faith is the love for obedience to all Yahweh ask of us from the word.
many so called Christians claim new birth but continue to disregard that obedience has any thing to do with confirming an individuals walk of Faith,
the Apostle Paul warned the Church member in Corinth to examine and see if their walk and talk and dress should in the light of scripture. He warned that carnal Christians don’t exist, he warned examine themselves , repent before it is to late, Yahweh is longsuffering
Tell that to the Apostles and Jesus Christ..The Apostles ALWAYS baptized new converts in the Book of Acts..There is no magic in the water..but it is obediance to the command of Jesus Christ and his Apostles
Posts: 68 | From: Texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
baptism is not need for salvation, but a heart willing do do what ever is ask of an individual by the Holy Spirit is needed!
the heart of every issue is rhe issue of the heart!
Why would anyone not want to be baptized if the scripture declare it an ordinance of the church.....and there is nothing hindering ??????
Same goes for the ordinance of Lords Supper....
Same goes for the ordinance of head covering....
Same goes for the ordinance of foot washing.....
the only think that keeps a heart knowing it is examined and found in the true Faith is the love for obedience to all Yahweh ask of us from the word.
many so called Christians claim new birth but continue to disregard that obedience has any thing to do with confirming an individuals walk of Faith,
the Apostle Paul warned the Church member in Corinth to examine and see if their walk and talk and dress should in the light of scripture. He warned that carnal Christians don’t exist, he warned examine themselves , repent before it is to late, Yahweh is longsuffering
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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J4Jesus
unregistered
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posted
check this out, i don't care if it is "required for salvation", i'm not doing it.
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Parousia
Advanced Member
Member # 6448
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Primoa1970:
Many scriptures point to the fact that when people got saved, they were also baptised. If we are saved by grace through faith.....then baptism should only be an outward sign to the world of our decision for Christ, correct?
I like to use the thief on the cross as an example....he didn't have an opportunity to get water immersed.
Or what about people who get saved and then suddenly die shortly thereafter? Are they doomed to hell because they didn't get baptised? I think not if it's by grace, correct?
What are your thoughts on this?
Let me also add that I got baptised in 2002...2 years after I gave my life to the Lord. I totally agree with baptism and would recommend it to any new believer.....but not for salvation. Our salvation is secure in Christ.
Jesus commanded water baptism and so did the Apostles..easy anwser..
Posts: 68 | From: Texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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Thunderz7
Advanced Member
Member # 31
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posted
Until we can look past John's baptism in H2O,
and see the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire,
the baptism into the Body of Christ,
the baptism "in" HIS NAME,
[not reciting His Name, but being "IN" His Name]
clothed in Him,
He in us,
we in Him,
the "one baptism",
we will not be able to measure out another thousand cubits.
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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posted
Is baptism a requirement for salvation?
Hi, Promoa1870. Eden here:
I am reminded of the Ethiopian eunuch, who said to the beloved evangelist Philip, “What prevents me from being baptized?”
What prevents me from being baptized? ... What prevents me from being baptized?
Acts 8:
36 And as they {the evangelist Philip and the eunuch} went along on their way {in the enuch’s chariot}, they came to a certain water: and the eunuch said, SEE, HERE IS WATER, WHAT HINDERS ME FROM BEING BAPTIZED?
37 And {the evangelist} Philip said {to the eunuch}, If you believe with all your heart, you may {be baptized}. And he {the eunuch} answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Anyone who believes that Jesus was, and is, the Son of God of YHWH Israel IS ALLOWED TO UNDERGO THE RITUAL WATER BAPTISM in which the sinner acknowledges to God that God HAS CRUCIFIED the sinner also to the cross with Jesus.
By water baptism, the sinner SYMBOLICALLY shows this to the Lord and to the angels, and also to Satan and to the wicked angels, that the sinner considers himself CRUCIFIED and BURIED with Christ.
But then the sinner COMES BACK UP out of the water to signify to the Lord and to the angels that the Christian sees from the Scriptures (Romans 6:6) that God has graciously also RAISED BACK UP WITH CHRIST.
To show this openly, the sinner who now believes that Jesus was and is the Son of God, now BAPTIZES HIMSELF IN WATER, that the heavenly witnesses and also the earthly witnesses will openly KNOW and SEE that that sinner says that he is saved under and by the blood of Jesus.
BAPTISM is thus a PRIVILEGE which ONLY someone who BELIEVES that JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD may do:
Acts 8:
38 And as they {Philip and the eunuch} went along on their way {in the eunuch’s chariot}, they came to a certain water, and the eunuch said, SEE, HERE IS WATER, WHAT HINDERS ME FROM BEING BAPTIZED?
39 And Philip {the evangelist} said to him {to the eunuch}, If you believe with all your heart, you may {be baptized}. And he {the eunuch} answered him, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Then the evangelist Philip answered:
38 And he {Philip} commanded that the chariot stand still: and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him there.
By this he showed to the heavenly host and confessed before men that his life had been laid on the cross but rose again in newness of life.
Is baptism a requirement for salvation? No, it does not appear to be a requirement; baptism is more a way of ACKNOWLEDGING openly to God and to the good and bad angels, where one stands on earth with regard to Jesus Christ being the SON OF GOD.
Be blessed,
Eden
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Primoa1970
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Member # 1016
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posted
It's also important that we understand the doctrine of justification before we understand the doctrine of baptism.
We are justified by grace....apart from the law. True, baptism wasn't in the law. But the law represents a works-based salvation before Christ came. Christ came to fulfill the law....not to abolish it entirely. We are no longer saved by obedience to the law....but rather...obedience to the new covenant.
Acts 4:12 (New King James Version)
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
And of course...my personal favorite:
Ephesians 2:8-9 (New King James Version)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
So....this is why I believe that baptism is simply the outward sign to the public that we have made a commitment to Christ. God knows the heart. Whether or not the public know about it is not a concern. But somewhere along the line as christians....we will begin to bear good fruit.
-Primo
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1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Posts: 639 | From: Orlando, FL | Registered: Feb 2003
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Juggernaut
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Member # 6413
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posted
I have always been taught that it was a requirement, but the thief is a good example of otherwise. Some might say that was an exception though, because Jesus Himself granted him access and had not yet died for his sins.
What about these verses;
1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Colossians 2:12
having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
Acts 13:24
Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
John 3:5
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Mark 1:4
And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
And the big one,
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
If you make all the scriptures harmonize, like Tim Spong says, it seems to me that it is at the least a command. This in my mind makes it a requirement. Of course, that is up to you.
Your Brother in Christ,
Chris Howard
Posts: 4 | From: St. Helens Oregon | Registered: Feb 2007
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
Topic: Is baptism a requirement for salvation?
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No, but we should do it out of love for our Lord Jesus Christ. There have been people who gotten saved on their death bed or because they are confined to bed because of disabilities that cannot be baptized.
But we, who are able, should be baptized because we love Jesus and want to follow Him in obedience.
thanks,
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Primoa1970
Advanced Member
Member # 1016
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posted
Many scriptures point to the fact that when people got saved, they were also baptised. If we are saved by grace through faith.....then baptism should only be an outward sign to the world of our decision for Christ, correct?
I like to use the thief on the cross as an example....he didn't have an opportunity to get water immersed.
Or what about people who get saved and then suddenly die shortly thereafter? Are they doomed to hell because they didn't get baptised? I think not if it's by grace, correct?
What are your thoughts on this?
Let me also add that I got baptised in 2002...2 years after I gave my life to the Lord. I totally agree with baptism and would recommend it to any new believer.....but not for salvation. Our salvation is secure in Christ.
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1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Posts: 639 | From: Orlando, FL | Registered: Feb 2003
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