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Author
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Topic: discussion of Grace
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
but Eden the "Grace" you refer to is channeled through the human that has been made a "New Creature."
Salvation is produced by an encounter with the one and only True and Living God.
Salvation can not come into the heart of a person and leave them in the state it found them.
“Grace” is the power of Yahweh, creator of Heaven and Earth coming to abide in the hearts of those that put their trust in the precious Blood of Yahweh’s only begotten Son.
That can not happen and you, I, or anyone else and we not be changed.
If you , I or anyone else say that is possible we are a liar or crazy.
Yeshua is the Straight Gate, but He is also the Narrow Path that must be traveled if any intend to find their way to eternal life.
The Holy Spirit draws you to the Straight Gate but individually mankind must choose to enter.
But once you enter the Gate the trip is not over, every person has a race to run, battles to fight on the Narrow Path and only by the Power of the Holy Spirit, Yahweh’s Grace will any make it Home.
It’s all by Yahweh, start to finish but the equation does include your free will, you will choose life or death, the narrow path or the broad path.
Nothing in nature is instant…
It take time for the tadpole to become a frog and a struggle….
It takes time for the caterpillar to become a butterfly and a struggle….
It take time for the chick to hatch from the egg and a struggle….
The baby in the mother’s womb and a struggle…..
There is a internal struggle in all nature to become what Yahweh designed them to be.
“does not even nature itself teach you” the Apostle Paul uses this phrase under the inspiration of the Holy Sprit about what nature can teach you.
in 1 Corinthians 11:14
Yeshua taught His disciples using nature….
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? (nature teaches you it is impossible)
Mat 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
Mar 13:28 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
The Apostle James taught under the inspiration of the Holy Sprit about what nature can teach you.
Jam 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet [water] and bitter?
Jam 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so [can] no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Meditate on this scripture, there is much to understand…..
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Luk&chapter=13&verse=24&strongs=75&page=
Agonize to enter in at the straight gate (how different is what the author and finisher of Salvation thoughts are than those of American evangelist, pastors and preachers who teach say a little prayer and be saved.)
for many, (the majority )
I say unto you, (Yeshua is saying this, the author and finisher of Salvation)
will seek to enter in, (these are people in the Church, the womb of Yahweh)
and shall not be able. (pretty self explanatory)
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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To me the Biblical grace being discussed here is the grace which means that "God does everything FOR man" while in its opposite, law, "man does something FOR God".
In grace, mand does NOTHING and God does EVERYTHING.
And that is true because ALL have been declared sinners under the sentence of "the soul that sins, it shall die". So God has the LEGAL right to destroy ALL sinners.
But if God wants to have some sons and daughters, then God is going to have to SHOW SOME GRACE to some of these ALL sinners, but it still remains ALL GRACE because ALL sinners can do nothing to MAKE THEMSELVES IMMORTAL.
It's ALL grace, even as many as the LORD God chooses to be with Him, all that is grace too because THAT amount is consequence of WHICH method God uses to GET His sons and daughters. Since MAN does not choose the method, that is ALL by grace too.
Eden
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becauseHElives
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posted
quote:
IMO grace is being confused here with the inner working of the Holy Spirit.
Grace that saves and the inner workings of the holy Spirit are one and the same.
Grace is Yahweh's desires and power deposited in the heart of a man / woman at the point of the New Birth where in a change takes place so amazing it can only be compare to a tadpole changing into a frog or a worm being transformed into a butterfly.
This is Yahweh's doing, not mans.
Any person claiming Salvation regardless of their geographic location that continues to live unchanged as they were before Salavation by Grace, have never truly recieved the Truth, because they are not set free.
The majority of the people in the American Church, the only area I am quilified to address only want a free ticket to eternal life.
Mankind getting a free ticket to eternal life, is not why Yeshua died and rose again.
Yeshua died and rose again to Glorify the Heavenly Father. He died and rose again that the Father Yahweh might have many son and daughters.
Yeshua died and rose again that we could be transformed into His image.
In our unsaved state were were like that worm but the truly born again person by grace is becoming a butterfly.
Salvation will be complete when we finish this earthly race and not before.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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timspong
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posted
IMO grace is being confused here with the inner working of the Holy Spirit. By grace we are given a deposit of God himself that dwells within us that brings around the transformation that we are incapable of achieving by ourselves.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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frater_nothing
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posted
It is difficult for me to use or speak of this word 'grace' which has been so cheapened, misused, and abused by the Tares in the Field of the World: nevertheless, I will make a few comments...
quote:
If you take the foundational doctrines of grace away, the church will fall like the house built on the sand. This is really serious folks, so please don’t take it lightly.
Agreed. We have been saved by Hesed through Credence.
quote:
Yeshua's Blood is the only Salvation for any human.
Agreed.
quote:
Understand that Grace is the change that takes place in the heart of the believer.
I agree that Transformation of the Heart (which is the Will) is an Opus of Grace.
Yet Grace itself is an entire realm of existance. It is a Sphere of Being. It is a State of Life.
Grace is the 'Hesed' King David spoke and prophecied about. Hesed is opposed to 'Geburrah', or Severity. Severity pertains to the Sphere of Existance of the Law of Sin and Death.
Hear Paul's words: "But may I never make my boast in anything except the Cross of Iesus Xristos, by which a Cosmos has been crucified to me, and I to a Cosmos."
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Before the new creation the unbeliever only possesses a heart of stone, incapable of loving or serving Yahweh, hating Yahweh’s Law and total disregard for anything but to please self.[
Agreed. (viz,...how about the entire Letter of Colossians for starters.)
quote:
Only obedience by love will please Yahweh.
Agreed. "For the Obedience (i.e., Hearkening) that comes from Faith, to all the nations."
"For nothing avails in Xpistos Iesus, but Credence doing Work through Agape."
quote:
Only the obedient will be saved….
Agreed. I would simply add, "He became the Author of Eternal Deliverance to all those who obey Him."
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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Is "Grace" that "Saves" passive or active?
Can anyone give me an example where "Saving Faith" is not followed by some type of active obedience?
There is one thing certain from scripture the person that has experienced the "New Birth" been given a "New Heart", has a desire and the power to do Yahweh's will, because that is what "Grace that Saves" is!
Take the thief on the cross, had circumstances allowed he would have obeyed anything Yeshua would have ask of him because he had received a “New Heart”. Grace had entered his soul. He now had inside him the Grace of Yahweh, the desire and the power of Yahweh do Yahweh’s will.
Grace is Yahweh coming into a person, giving that person the desire and the power to do what ever Yahweh has ask of them in the Scriptures.
i.e.
Love Him with all you are and all you have (body, soul and spirit) and love your neighbor as you love yourself. Fulfilling the Law and the Prophets.
If any man lacks the desire and the power to do Yahweh will, that person does not have the Grace that the Apostle Paul said Saves.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Aaron
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No, there is more to it.
Yet, because "grace" has been labeled only as "unmerited favor" for so long (in no small part due to the emphasis on evangelism) it is difficult for most to even conceive of the idea that it may have another application.
quote:
Also you should remember that biblical theology recognizes two kinds of Grace:
Good point. Biblical theology has lacked the complete truth for some time now.
Aaron
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timspong
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
[QB] Grace is not only unmerited favor. It also seems to be related to the capacity to carry out the work of the Father:
Paul is not in the habit of changing words to suit his purpose, he is using a pre-existing language to convey his thoughts. I think my following “translations” of your “grace” passages adequately convey the use of the word grace within the context of “unmerited favor”.
quote:
"By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it."
God gave me the ability to give unmerited favor to others, and with this I laid a foundation………………..
quote:
"But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me."
By unmerited favor God changed me to what I now am. The effect of this change was…………
quote:
"And now, brothers, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches."
We want to know about the changes God made to the church that makes them so able to give unmerited favors to others
In fact if you read further, that text is all about their God given ability to give to others.
2 Co 8:1-3
1 And now, brothers, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches .
2 Out of the most severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity.
3 For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own,
quote:
There are many examples but the last one I quoted is key, in my opinion. If grace were simply "unmerited favor" then what is there to know about it? Grace given to "a church" would have been a given reality since grace is necessarily required for redemption. However, Paul says there is something noteworthy about the "grace that God has given the Macedonian churches". He explains their actions and then finishes with:
"But just as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us—see that you also excel in this grace of giving."
There it is: "..this grace of giving." Or in other words, this particular work of the Father.
Aaron
Grace of giving is exactly what is says. By unmerited favor, God gave the ability to give unmerited favor to others which is not a natural carnal behavior at all.
Grace is all about deflecting glory from us so that God gets it all.
Also you should remember that biblical theology recognizes two kinds of Grace:
1. Common grace, that is available to everyone. Ie nice food, cars, houses, sunshine, rain etc. eg “By grace the word is available to all men” this means that the word is preached to everyone, there are plenty of bibles available, TV & radio make no distinction who they serve etc.
2. Particular Grace. The grace that grants us the ability to seek and understand the atoning work of Christ. This is not merely the general knowledge that God exists as that is pretty obvious. Anyone can look at the stars and pretty lake and be sure of Gods existence. However this will never reveal the atoning work of Christ or Gods plan for redemption. For that you must have revelation from scripture. Sinful man is not able to choose to believe scripture, he simply doesn’t have the ability. He has been blinded/hardened by sin and satan.
2 Co 4:3-4
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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Aaron
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Grace is not only unmerited favor. It also seems to be related to the capacity to carry out the work of the Father:
"By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it."
"But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me."
"And now, brothers, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches."
There are many examples but the last one I quoted is key, in my opinion. If grace were simply "unmerited favor" then what is there to know about it? Grace given to "a church" would have been a given reality since grace is necessarily required for redemption. However, Paul says there is something noteworthy about the "grace that God has given the Macedonian churches". He explains their actions and then finishes with:
"But just as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us—see that you also excel in this grace of giving."
There it is: "..this grace of giving." Or in other words, this particular work of the Father.
Aaron
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timspong
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Primoa1970:
Grace is simply this:
"Unmerrited, or undeserved favor"
Grace is God giving us what we didn't deserve....whereas mercy is God not giving us what we do deserve (eternal damnation and separation from Him)
When you break it down like that, Ephesians 2:8-9 would read something like this:
"For it is by unmerrited and undeserved favor that you have been saved through faith...and that not of yourselves....it is the gift of God, not by works....so that no man can boast"
Sort of gives those verses a whole new swing, doesn't it?
And as I've said in the past....grace is not a license to sin. We will still sin on a daily basis no matter how good we try to be (Romans 3:23).....but again....that's where mercy and forgiveness come into play.
I thank God for His Grace....I would be dead without it.
-Primo ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
I agree totally
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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timspong
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
timsponge,
Rom 1:22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Psalm 14 (Amplified Bible)
1 THE [empty-headed] fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable deeds; there is none that does good or right.
Romans 3:10 As it is written, None is righteous, just and truthful and upright and conscientious, no, not one.
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there were any who understood, dealt wisely, and sought after God, inquiring for and of Him and requiring Him [of vital necessity].
3 They are all gone aside, they have all together become filthy; there is none that does good or right, no, not one.
Romans 3:11-12 No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God All have turned aside; together they have gone wrong and have become unprofitable and worthless; no one does right, not even one!
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, who eat up my people as they eat bread and who do not call on the Lord?
5 There they shall be in great fear [literally--dreading a dread], for God is with the generation of the [uncompromisingly] righteous (those upright and in right standing with Him).
6 You [evildoers] would put to shame and confound the plans of the poor and patient, but the Lord is his safe refuge.
7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord shall restore the fortunes of His people, then Jacob shall rejoice and Israel shall be glad.
Romans 3:25-27 Lest you be self-opinionated (wise in your own conceits), I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in, And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob. And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
without excuse:
without excuse for what?
No one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God…
But there is a difference between the head and the heart as proven by the Canaan woman
she had seen the works of Yahweh done through Yeshua's ministry. Her heart cried out to Yahweh and He responded!
The Gentiles were forbidden to become children of God prior to Israel's rejection of God.
In Matthew 15:22-28 below, Jesus called the Canaan woman a "dog" and said He did not come for her.
Yet, because of her faith He healed her daughter.
This scripture is in direct contradiction with the theology of Total Depravity whereby one must be drawn by God, given faith by God and must be one of the elect.
The Gentiles, of which the Canaanites were apart, were not named as the elect at this time. Jesus did not draw her to Him which is in direct contradiction with the erroneous theology of Unconditional Election.
She came by her own free will against His initial rejection of her.
This is also an example in direct contradiction with the erroneous theology of Limited Atonement.
Her faith in Jesus certainly provided her salvation in addition to the healing of her daughter.
The scripture have to be taken as a whole not bits and pieces.
Yahweh can not be put in a box!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
I think I waded through most of this "stuff" on the other thread.
http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004985;p=1#000028
If anyone reading this thinks there is anything I have not completely refuted using only what is in the bible. please tell me. I would be only too happy to clarify.
Meanwhile, becauseHElives, I would be very interested in your interpretation of this verse. If you somehow hammer it into your theory of the "elect" I would be suitably impressed.
Mk 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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Primoa1970
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Member # 1016
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posted
Grace is simply this:
"Unmerrited, or undeserved favor"
Grace is God giving us what we didn't deserve....whereas mercy is God not giving us what we do deserve (eternal damnation and separation from Him)
When you break it down like that, Ephesians 2:8-9 would read something like this:
"For it is by unmerrited and undeserved favor that you have been saved through faith...and that not of yourselves....it is the gift of God, not by works....so that no man can boast"
Sort of gives those verses a whole new swing, doesn't it?
And as I've said in the past....grace is not a license to sin. We will still sin on a daily basis no matter how good we try to be (Romans 3:23).....but again....that's where mercy and forgiveness come into play.
I thank God for His Grace....I would be dead without it.
-Primo
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1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Posts: 639 | From: Orlando, FL | Registered: Feb 2003
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
timsponge,
Rom 1:22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Psalm 14 (Amplified Bible)
1 THE [empty-headed] fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable deeds; there is none that does good or right.
Romans 3:10 As it is written, None is righteous, just and truthful and upright and conscientious, no, not one.
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there were any who understood, dealt wisely, and sought after God, inquiring for and of Him and requiring Him [of vital necessity].
3 They are all gone aside, they have all together become filthy; there is none that does good or right, no, not one.
Romans 3:11-12 No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God All have turned aside; together they have gone wrong and have become unprofitable and worthless; no one does right, not even one!
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, who eat up my people as they eat bread and who do not call on the Lord?
5 There they shall be in great fear [literally--dreading a dread], for God is with the generation of the [uncompromisingly] righteous (those upright and in right standing with Him).
6 You [evildoers] would put to shame and confound the plans of the poor and patient, but the Lord is his safe refuge.
7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord shall restore the fortunes of His people, then Jacob shall rejoice and Israel shall be glad.
Romans 3:25-27 Lest you be self-opinionated (wise in your own conceits), I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in, And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob. And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
without excuse:
without excuse for what?
No one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God…
But there is a difference between the head and the heart as proven by the Canaan woman
she had seen the works of Yahweh done through Yeshua's ministry. Her heart cried out to Yahweh and He responded!
The Gentiles were forbidden to become children of God prior to Israel's rejection of God.
In Matthew 15:22-28 below, Jesus called the Canaan woman a "dog" and said He did not come for her.
Yet, because of her faith He healed her daughter.
This scripture is in direct contradiction with the theology of Total Depravity whereby one must be drawn by God, given faith by God and must be one of the elect.
The Gentiles, of which the Canaanites were apart, were not named as the elect at this time. Jesus did not draw her to Him which is in direct contradiction with the erroneous theology of Unconditional Election.
She came by her own free will against His initial rejection of her.
This is also an example in direct contradiction with the erroneous theology of Limited Atonement.
Her faith in Jesus certainly provided her salvation in addition to the healing of her daughter.
The scripture have to be taken as a whole not bits and pieces.
Yahweh can not be put in a box!
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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posted
quote:
Eden,
Please explain to me what exactly these Christian should be obeying in order for them to be saved?
Eden, please understand nothing but the offering made by Yeshua of His own death, burial and resurrection can produce Salvation. He and He alone is the Author and Finisher of Saving Faith.
quote:
Eden,
When you say, obey these commandments, and only those who obey these commandments, what are these commandments that you referring to exactly?
Understand I am only speaking of obedience from a New Creature, a New Heart.
In Jeremiah 31:31-34 the prophet holds out this promise:
"Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt [not like the Ten Commandments – the heart of the Mosaic covenant], My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the Lord. "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel [and not only with them but with all who are children of Israel by faith] after those days," declares the Lord, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the Lord, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
Eze 11:19….
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
But [as for them] whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.
quote:
Eden,
Okay, as a practical matter, what does this change look like, in you for instance?
Before I was Born Again, I thought only of myself. Everything I did was for my pleasure. I did lots of horrible things and did some good things but I never regarded anyone’s feeling but my own.
When I got saved, the change was so evident most of my family and friends thought I had lost my mind.
I went in tears to every one I had hurt that was still alive and begged for their forgiveness.
I don’t claim to keep the letter of the Law (The 10 Commandment or The Law of Love, which Yeshua defined “To love the Lord thy God with all the body, soul, and spirit and love thy neighbor as you love yourself” which are one in the same Law).
But I strive to keep the spirit of the Law.
The letter kills but the Spirit makes alive.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2001/47_Dead_to_the_Law_Serving_in_the_Spirit_Part_2/
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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timspong
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
[QB] There is a difference in obedience that operates by Love , Walking in the Spirit (Law of the Spirit) produces Life
And
Obedience that operates by walking in the flesh! (Law of the flesh) produces death
Agreed (sorta)
quote:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
What he is saying here is that faith is the gift from God.
quote:
What is Grace?……..
Grace is according to the Strong’s Concordance……
good will, loving-kindness, favour of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues.
Again grace is the action of Giving rather than the gift itself. The gift is Gods Holy influence, ie the act of God drawing man into a knowledge of Christ.
quote:
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Context is King. He is talking about being under the supervision of the mosaic law here.
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When faith comes, the ability to please Yahweh comes with it, grace is the Holy influence of Yahweh Himself upon the soul. ( but we have a dual nature after the new birth and now we have to choose, walk in the Spirit and live or feed the flesh and die.)
This is not what the scripture you quoted implies at all. He is talking about the fact that faith has now come corporately into the body of Christ as a whole. Not individual faith. Ie a new covenant/dispensation (depending on your theology).
Grace is not the holy influence of God on the soul as mentioned before. Grace is the gifting action not the gift itself.
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Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Agreed – of course
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The evidence faith exist in the heart of a believer is obedience.
Yes but that is not quite what is being talked about in Hebrews 11.1. However I agree with both statements although they are mutually exclusive.
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Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.
Why is Yahweh looking down from heaven upon men to see if any seek Him, if they have no ability to seek Him.
As I said in another thread, the fact that you use psalm 14 as evidence of mans carnal ability to seek God absolutely astounds me. Again, context is king and you need to really read the whole Psalm in context.
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Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Yeshua said you have the ability to seek.
Again; totally out of context. Jesus is teaching believers about how to pray to God He is not talking about unbelievers seeking God.
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Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I totally agree. This is explicit: The only way man can come to Christ is if God draws him. He cannot come by himself.
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Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
I am not sure what you are implying with these scriptures
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Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Again Context is King. He is talking to those that are already saved and are with him in eternity.
This is your closing statment
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If your God has only picked a handful for Heaven and predetermined everyone else go to Hell,
God didn’t predetermine anyone to hell as that is where we were all going before he intervened.
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you do not serve Yahweh the Holy One,
I try to serve him to the best of my ability. I endeavor to know him by scripture rather than use my carnal intellect to paint a pretty picture using a pallet of presupposition.
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for Yahweh is Love
He is also a consuming fire
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and designed or determined that anyone should go to Hell.
God is all powerful and does not fail. Just read the whole of Romans 9 in context. You are disillusioned if you think that we deserve anything more than hell.
Ro 9:18-23
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
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Those that go to Hell will go of their own free will.
Agreed – it is the only thing our free will can achieve.
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The evidences of Yahweh’s love confront every human every day, in creation and the events of every day living Yahweh is there.
Agreed, but not everyone is able to discern it.
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Yeshua’s Blood was shed for the sins of the whole not just the elect.
I disagree, but that is a whole other argument that will require a clear understanding of the other doctrines of grace first.
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you need to study line upon line, precept upon precept, not bits and pieces. Make all of scripture harmonize.
I agree good advice. Context is king for a correct hermeneutic understanding and you have clearly demonstrated a lack of ability in that regard. I would like to encourage you to clear your mind of any presuppositions and let the bible provide the context. It always says what it means and means what it says and if your opinion is different then one of you needs to change (ie you).
I am sorry I sound harsh but I really worry about the internet and how these “new age” faith ideas are spreading and are undermining scripture.
My favorite quote right now is:
“….whenever I discern a sounder opinion in any matter whatsoever, I gladly and humbly abandon the earlier one. For I know that those things I have learned are but the least in comparison with what I do not know.” John Hus
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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Eden
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posted
Hi, becauseHElives. I’ve picked one Bible verse out of the ones you quoted to summarize what you said:
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance.
Eden here:
Okay, as a practical matter, what does this change look like, in you for instance?
When you say, obey these commandments, and only those who obey these commandments, what are these commandments that you referring to exactly?
Are you referring to the Ten Commandments?
Or are you referring to the commandment to love the LORD our God with all our hearts and minds and to love our neighbors as ourselves for therein is the whole law wrapped up?
Please explain to me what exactly these Christian should be obeying in order for them to be saved?
I'd like to know. Thanks for explaining this to me.
with love, Eden
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becauseHElives
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posted
There is a difference in obedience that operates by Love , Walking in the Spirit (Law of the Spirit) produces Life
And
Obedience that operates by walking in the flesh! (Law of the flesh) produces death
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
What is Grace?……..
Grace is according to the Strong’s Concordance……
good will, loving-kindness, favour of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
When faith comes, the ability to please Yahweh comes with it, grace is the Holy influence of Yahweh Himself upon the soul. ( but we have a dual nature after the new birth and now we have to choose, walk in the Spirit and live or feed the flesh and die.)
Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
The evidence faith exist in the heart of a believer is obedience.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.
Why is Yahweh looking down from heaven upon men to see if any seek Him, if they have no ability to seek Him.
Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Yeshua said you have the ability to seek.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
If your God has only picked a handful for Heaven and predetermined everyone else go to Hell, you do not serve Yahweh the Holy One, for Yahweh is Love and designed or determined that anyone should go to Hell. Those that go to Hell will go of their own free will. The evidences of Yahweh’s love confront every human every day, in creation and the events of every day living Yahweh is there.
Yeshua’s Blood was shed for the sins of the whole not just the elect, you need to study line upon line, precept upon precept, not bits and pieces. Make all of scripture harmonize.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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timspong
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Member # 5240
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
[QB] Yeshua said ....
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it
- agreed
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This is really serious folks, so please don’t take it lightly.
agreed
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Grace is not what saves mankind....
obviously, however grace is the means by which we are given access to the attoning work of Christ - ie as a gift
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Yeshua's Blood is the only Salvation for any human.
agreed although more simply Jesus shed his blood to atone for our sins. I.e. he paid the penalty for our sins.
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Understand that Grace is the change that takes place in the heart of the believer.
no this is the result of Gods grace upon us, not grace itself.
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Before the new creation the unbeliever only possesses a heart of stone, incapable of loving or serving Yahweh, hating Yahweh’s Law and total disregard for anything but to please self.
agreed
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Grace changes this depraved state mankind exist in. Grace places a heart of flesh in man, the seed of Yahweh Himself, this seed of Grace grows in man producing the very character of Yahweh Himself.
in principle I agree however flesh is normally associated with the carnal rather than the spiritual. More accurately by grace God places His spirit within us and it is with this spirit we come to seek God. I don't know what you mean about seed of grace, it is a spiritual seed given by grace. Grace simply means gift translated from the greek word charis which literally means gift or more litterally an "unearned favor".
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It matures as man yields himself to the work of the Holy Spirit.
Grace does not mature within us because it is not an entity but an action of God. It our ablility to decern the will of God and our obediance that matures in accordance with Gods Holy spirit working within us.
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But after the new birth, the Apostle Paul taught there were two nature existent inside of the believer and to which ever nature you yield, that nature will be master.
agreed
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Mankind is a freewill agent , Yahweh will not force you to obey Him.
We have freewill to do anything in the flesh, but we cannot seek God without the Spirit of truth. God gives this to his elect by as a gift (grace). We cannot make a freewill choice to seek God.
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Only obedience by love will please Yahweh.
It is impossible to please God by our own efforts. Isaiah 64.6 - "...all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags"
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Only the obedient will be saved….
We are saved by grace through faith, not by grace through obedience
Your opinion on the fallen nature of man who still has the ability to seek God need more work as your views seems to be contradictory. ie if man is unable to seek God, how does he come to know him?
God seeks man is the only answer and this is by grace.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
quote:
timspong said....
If you take the foundational doctrines of grace away, the church will fall like the house built on the sand. This is really serious folks, so please don’t take it lightly.
Yeshua said ....
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it
This is really serious folks, so please don’t take it lightly.
Grace is not what saves mankind....
Yeshua's Blood is the only Salvation for any human.
Understand that Grace is the change that takes place in the heart of the believer.
Before the new creation the unbeliever only possesses a heart of stone, incapable of loving or serving Yahweh, hating Yahweh’s Law and total disregard for anything but to please self.
Grace changes this depraved state mankind exist in. Grace places a heart of flesh in man, the seed of Yahweh Himself, this seed of Grace grows in man producing the very character of Yahweh Himself.
It matures as man yields himself to the work of the Holy Spirit.
But after the new birth, the Apostle Paul taught there were two nature existent inside of the believer and to which ever nature you yield, that nature will be master.
Mankind is a freewill agent , Yahweh will not force you to obey Him.
Only obedience by love will please Yahweh.
Only the obedient will be saved….
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
2Cr 7:15 And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.
2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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