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Author
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Topic: Prejudice
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
You cannot be saved after death. It is possible to get saved on your death bed, but some die instantly say like a car wreck. There is no salvation after death. We are to accept Jesus before we die.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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desertdweller
Advanced Member
Member # 6383
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posted
This all goes back to what Eden brought up awhile ago.....does everyone have the same opportunity to accept Christ in this life? Maybe your unsaved family members, Betty, for whatever reasons, haven't really had the same chance as you or others.....just being in the same room or going to the same church isn't enough. No man knows the heart of a person except God. All things work together for good to those who love the Lord.....and I'm sure you continue to pray for them.
Maybe after they have died they will come face to face with Christ and see the truth - or feel the truth - they never did when alive. I just hold out for additional invitations from Christ.
There is this which suggests that preaching to people after they have died is real:
1 Peter 3:18-20 (Amplified Bible)
18For Christ [the Messiah Himself] died for sins once for all, the Righteous for the unrighteous (the Just for the unjust, the Innocent for the guilty), that He might bring us to God. In His human body He was put to death, but He was made alive in the spirit,
19In which He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20[The souls of those] who long before in the days of Noah had been disobedient, when God's patience waited during the building of the ark in which a few [people], actually eight in number, were saved through water.
If Jesus preaches to those who had already died, I wouldn't think it would be pointless. Jesus does nothing pointless. He would only preach to those if there were some point. I wouldn't want to be heaven closed to the rest of your family because they waited till after death to acknowledge their need for God.
Now, that doesn't mean we should all wait till we die! Not at all. We should choose God now for the inherent value of knowing God sooner rather than later, and for the opportunity to do God's will in this life.
Also, not so sure God is absent from hell....
see verse 8
Psalm 139
1 O LORD, You have searched me and known me.
2You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar.
3You scrutinize my path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
5You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
7Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
DD
Posts: 51 | Registered: Feb 2007
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
It does not make me feel better, to know that I have loved ones who are lost and going to hell. It is reality. Pretending it is not so, is not going to change things. Only they can choose to accept Jesus. I can't accept salvation for anyone but me. It breaks my heart when people teach the lie that all will be saved, because this is false hope that is going to lead people to the pits of hell.
God's Words are indeed precious. I have no problems using the Word of God to make my point of what God says to mankind. He says that the only way to Heaven is through the blood of Jesus. If we try to enter Heaven another way, we are thieves and we will be in hell for eternity.
This is not hell. No matter how bad a person's, life is, it is NOT hell. We cannot even imagine the pain and suffering hell is going to be. Even if we put aside the physical pain and yes, the Bible makes it clear there will be pain, it is being forever estranged from God, will be the hardest part of hell. There will be no love, no kindness, nothing good of anykind in hell. We are taught to look for the good in everyone, but in hell there will be no good. There will only be evil.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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lonlesol
Advanced Member
Member # 4511
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posted
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21 NIV
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
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MercifulFate
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Member # 6412
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posted
"This is a Christian board. It is against the rules to preach or teach Universal Salvation. It is a lie of the devil. Jesus said with His own words that He is the only way to Heaven. Jesus talks of hell and it does exist for those who refuse to accept the gift of salvation.
betty"
It a Christian Board. Start acting like one and stop damning people to hell, hiding like a coward behind the words of the Lord as if they were your own because they don't think like you. Grow up: spiritually, intellectually and ethically. Shouting the Gospel or bits and pieces of the Bible at the top of your lungs or in caps to convince yourself and others that you are devout will do nothing for you or anyone else, and honestly, makes you look like you have zero compassion or empathy for the human race. I really do pity you. I mean that sincerely.
I am done here. There is nothing that cannot be said without hellfire and brimstone being conjured from warped and unloving interpretations of the Bible. It's truly a shame. You will just end up isolating yourself. (Though misery does love company) And if you don't have the wherewithall to even consider what I am saying to you, you are truly lost.
So don't bother even posting a wall of scripture to justify your position on matters on the end of all things or salvation because from your perspective, from what I have gathered, you only want people to agree with you and make you feel good about yourself, and I just won't read it. Having a sincere faith in Jesus means you are loving - it is Love in Action. All I see from you is judgment in action. (Yes, I am one to talk, but this sort of banal, psychotic repetition of scripture without any sense of careful consideration, reflection, and at a very basic level, prayer, is utterly disturbing.)
So, yes, I may get kicked, but if this is your version of paradise, I am already in Hell, and I will pray for Jesus to redeem me for ever having trampled through such an unloving place. But if I am going to be labeled as preaching lies from the Devil, I should least be extended the courtesy of calling it as I see it and not mincing words anymore.
So tell yourself whatever you want to make yourself feel better. Faith may be all your really have. Thank God there is Grace for us all.
Kind Regards, as much as I can muster,
Me.
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"What we honor as prudence in our elders is simply panic in action."
Posts: 8 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
Rom 3:24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
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Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
2Pe 2:4¶For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.
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Jesus loved mankind so very much that He died for our sins. All we have to do is accept Jesus as our Savior and Lord. We can choose or we can reject. If we reject then we will go to hell.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
This is a Christian board. It is against the rules to preach or teach Universal Salvation. It is a lie of the devil. Jesus said with His own words that He is the only way to Heaven. Jesus talks of hell and it does exist for those who refuse to accept the gift of salvation.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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desertdweller
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Member # 6383
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posted
Wow, lots happened while I was out of town.
The passage that no man comes to the Father but by Jesus keeps coming up.
I again would like to say that I agree with this completely, and also that this doesn't mean that we get to decide what criteria Jesus uses - HE does. And how can we say we know what that is, fully, in completeness?
Jesus went after the man posessed by demons in chains - no one took Him there. Whom will He not seek out to deliver?
DM
Posts: 51 | Registered: Feb 2007
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MercifulFate
Community Member
Member # 6412
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posted
"Yes, I will continue to speak out against Universal Salvation, because it is a lie. There is no truth to Universal Salvation. If you listened to the link, David put up about the rapture, then you will see that there is evidence that Jesus is coming for the Church soon. We need to be reaching as many lost as we can and not giving them a false security that they will end up in Heaven, no matter what."
I am sorry but I have to disagree and say that's bogus. Not only does it completely against everything the Bible and Christianity stands for, but it's arrogrant as well. I don't remember EXACTLY what passage it is, but I am sure of the scripture gurus here know where it says something along the lines of:
"Only the Father knows how and when the end of all things will come to pass"
So if that's BIBLICAL, and from scripture, how in the world can anyone in their right mind or sanity even begin to profess to even know how the Divine Mind works, or what exactly will transpire?
And if you knew anything about scripture, there is no mention of a third advent or the mention of the second advent coming in two parts. That's not biblical either.
Bottom Line, it's incorrect thinking and interpretation. You can't take bits and pieces of the Bible and sew them together to fomulate a paradigm of what the TRUTH is unless it's grounded in the proper context.
So to answer Art's question: Who is Jesus to me? Jesus is wholly Human, wholly Divine, the savior, the Son, the redeemer, the King of Kings, Grace Incarnate, Love Incarnate, The Face of God, Divine Incarnate.
I challenge you to find anything unscriptural, unbiblical, or lies from the Devil in any of those statements.
Be well.
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"What we honor as prudence in our elders is simply panic in action."
Posts: 8 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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artm
Advanced Member
Member # 6243
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posted
Hello,
Wow,This has really been interesting to read. I will just say this.
The Bible does not teach that everyone will eventually be saved,that is not Biblical truth,But a lie.
Also,Jesus himself said," I am the door,no man cometh to the Father but by me."
Anyone,And I mean anyone, No matter their race,religious belief,or what side of the track they were born, " Must be born again"
They must receive Christ into their heart, and serve him in a way that is acceptable to God.
Jesus died on the cross of calvary for all people,But people must look to Christ to be saved.
Buddah can't save,allah can't save,Mary can't save, Pastor can't save, Denominations can't save,
Only Jesus can save the soul from being eternally lost.
Now some won't like what I have said, But I will ask the question that Jesus asked Peter,
" Whom do men say that I am ?"
What do you say about Jesus? Who do you say that he is ?
Either he is everything that the Bible declares him to be, Or he is not. What is he to you.?
Art
Posts: 50 | From: New York | Registered: Dec 2006
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
I suppose that is why in my estimation that faith, a bit of uncertainty, some humility, will bring one closer to a (or the) truth that brings one towards God.
"
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We can only draw close to Christ, when we realize that the only thing that can save us, is faith in Jesus Christ. It is arrogance and pride that makes one think that they can rewrite the plan of salvation. Jesus says He is the only way to Heaven.
It is the arrogance and pride of man who wants to invent their own plan of salvation outside of the Bible.
As a Christian I tried to show people to the path of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. You are not the first that I have encountered who believes in Universal Salvation. I have encountered ridiculed and harassment in the past for believing the truth of the Gospel.
You can try to take Universal Salvation and put it in a box with a pretty bow on it, but it is still a stinky lie from the devil. It will be responsible for leading many to hell. I wonder how a Christian can believe such a lie. I am not saying a Christian cannot believe this lie, but I wonder how someone can accept Jesus as Savior and Lord of their life and then buy into this lie that it doesn’t matter whether one accepts Jesus or not, we are all going to end up in Heaven. How can someone love Jesus and then have the pride to tell Him, that His plan of salvation is wrong?
Is Christianity prejudice? Not anymore than a burning building with one exit, is. All who flee through the exit will be saved, but if you say I refuse to go out the door because it is on the right and you never leave a room out of a door on the right, you die.
God loved us so much, He sent His only son to die for our sins. All we have to do is accept His gift of salvation.
If we refuse to accept His gift of salvation, we die in our sins. We go to hell, not because God is prejudice but because we were too proud to accept the gift.
Yes, I will continue to speak out against Universal Salvation, because it is a lie. There is no truth to Universal Salvation. If you listened to the link, David put up about the rapture, then you will see that there is evidence that Jesus is coming for the Church soon. We need to be reaching as many lost as we can and not giving them a false security that they will end up in Heaven, no matter what.
Jesus said to His disciples: Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15). Until Jesus comes, we need to be spreading the truth to the world so that all we will accept will do so.
There is a hell and there will many many people there. We are doing an injustice to the unsaved when we teach them the lie that all will be saved.
For your own sake, I ask you to fall on you knees before God and pray that He will open your eyes to the truth of the Gospel.
I remember a coke commercial in the late 60's that there was group singing "I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony"
This sounds so wonderful. But this is a pipe dream. The Bible makes it clear there will be no peace on earth until Jesus comes back and rules the earth with a fist of iron. At that time, those who rejected Jesus will be but in a lake of fire. There will be no salvation for them.
So it is not the time for a Christian to be preaching harmony on earth but to be preaching the truth of the Gospel of Christ. Jesus is the only way to Heaven. This is the truth.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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MercifulFate
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posted
"You are not serving the God of the Bible but have made a "god" of you own liking. You are committing the sin of idolatry. The God of the Bible does send people to hell. We cannot change God into one that is more pleasing to us. There is but one God. We accept His way of salvation, or we are going to go to hell. It is that simple.
Jesus is the way the truth and the life. There is no other door to Heaven, but Jesus."
It's really not that simple, but you are certainly welcome to believe whatever you please. It's truly sad when "Christians" are so tied up in the "rules" of Christianity, that they miss the forest for the trees.
That's all I really have to say about that. It's apparent that it is somewhat impossible to have intelligent conversation about the nature and way of Christianity with certain people without developing a sort of mob mentality that seeks to codemn those who don't adopt their partcular flavor of Christianity. It's a shame really. I never asked that people agree with what I say, but I certainly didn't expect such nastiness.
On the other hand, perhaps we should all hope we mellow out in time and give it a rest. Going back and forth like this is profound waste of time and only makes people upset it seems.
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"What we honor as prudence in our elders is simply panic in action."
Posts: 8 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
Amen Betty!!!!
Jesus of Nazareth was quite divisive:
John 3:
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Those who believe and receive Christ are saved. Those who reject Christ are condemned already.
Jesus was quite divisive when He drove out the money-changers from the Temple.
Jesus was quite divisive when He said cast not thy pearls before swine and give not that which is holy unto dogs.
Jesus was not a uniter but a divider, and those who follow Christ Jesus our Lord are separated from the world and those who are deceived by the god of this world.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
You are not serving the God of the Bible but have made a "god" of you own liking. You are committing the sin of idolatry. The God of the Bible does send people to hell. We cannot change God into one that is more pleasing to us. There is but one God. We accept His way of salvation, or we are going to go to hell. It is that simple.
Jesus is the way the truth and the life. There is no other door to Heaven, but Jesus.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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MercifulFate
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posted
"Christ Brings Division
(Luke 12:51-53; 14:26, 27)
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to 'set* a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
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this comes from the words of Christ. Your fight is with Him and not with me. But I will not agree with you just to please you. God's truth is the truth."
Again, it's about context, and as desertdweller brought up, about prejudice. It is fairly clear that your interpretation is literal and divisive in nature. One can read scripture until the end of all things, taking one bit here and there to justify their position, using the unfalliable word of the Bible as their justification.
It's a convienient sort of model to take scripture in piecemeal - and it's easy to do this because it doesn't require a whole lot of reflection, and more importantly, prayer, to use all the faculties of our being, the intellect, heart and soul, to come to a truth about the Lord that is all encompassing that involves the entirety of our own beings. It's not easy work, for sure, and one would be particularly arrogant (which I try to avoid! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ) to believe they have attained any sort of truth and certainty of all things. I suppose that is why in my estimation that faith, a bit of uncertainty, some humility, will bring one closer to a (or the) truth that brings one towards God.
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"What we honor as prudence in our elders is simply panic in action."
Posts: 8 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
Christ Brings Division
(Luke 12:51-53; 14:26, 27)
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to 'set* a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
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this comes from the words of Christ. Your fight is with Him and not with me. But I will not agree with you just to please you. God's truth is the truth.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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MercifulFate
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posted
"We were not called to bring harmony to the world but to spread the Gospel of Christ. There is a new age type of Christianity that seeks to hold hands with all religious beliefs while singing songs of harmony. This is not what being a Christian is about."
Wow, I don't know what to say to all of that. It's so fascinating that I cannot possibly write an adequate respone that accurately conveys my disappointment that one could be so divisive. I am surely not in a position to tell you what to believe, nor what is right - be that as it may, all I can say is that it's a shame you feel that way. Best of luck to you.
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"What we honor as prudence in our elders is simply panic in action."
Posts: 8 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
"We should promote harmony"
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We were not called to bring harmony to the world but to spread the Gospel of Christ. There is a new age type of Christianity that seeks to hold hands with all religious beliefs while singing songs of harmony. This is not what being a Christian is about.
Christ Brings Division
(Luke 12:51-53; 14:26, 27)
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to 'set* a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
Proclaming Jesus is the only way to Heaven, is not silliness.
Jhn 10:1¶Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. Jhn 10:2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
We proclaim the truth now, so those that will be saved will be. It will be too late after the Second Coming of Christ. That Jesus is the only way to Heaven is not a denomination doctrine but the truth of the Gospel. If we reject this truth, we have rejected the very foundation of Christianity.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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MercifulFate
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posted
"The Apostles died because they dared to preach the truth that Jesus is the only way to Heaven.
Yes, I do believe that Universal Salvation is a lie from the pits of hell. Jesus says that He is the only way to Heaven and if anyone try to enter into Heaven except through Him, they are a thief."
Why are they a thief? This is an interesting line of reasoning. How can one possibly steal from whom who has created all?
"A Christian should never think that they are better than anyone else. It is faith through Jesus that saves our souls not our own righteousness. There are many in the world today that are in prison for standing up for their faith in God. They do this because they love the Lord. Those who teach universal salvation are liars and the truth is not in them."
It's interesting when people use this line of reasoning because in my estimation is goes against the very nature of Christianity, which is ultimately Love in Action. To me, that's the entire reason why God chose to manifest Himself through the Son on this mortal coil - out of Love. A living, breathing, visage of Divine Love and Grace, whose every action was imbued with that Divine Love. It's an awesome thing to ponder, if our little mortal minds could ever wrap itself around such a concept. Be that as it may, I firmly believe we are called upon, each person, to live an authentic life - a life blooming with Divine Love and Grace. That is primary. Everything else, well - it's really not up to us to say what will really happen.
Like I said, we can spend an eternity or two squabbling about Biblical interpretations, the nature of salvation, original Greek, original Hebrew, what have you. I believe the Original Poster, desertdweller, was on to something about the nature of prejudice and how it affects the way in which we engage scripture, and ultimately, the purpose for engaging it in the first place. For how we read scripture ultimately affects how we engage God and others in the world.
So, if that is the case, that prejudice plays a part in these important matters, then I do not think it is entirely out of character to consider the way in which we engage it and how it affects everything we do, including our attitudes towards others. It's interesting that you mention that God saves our souls, not our own righteousness. While I would agree with this in part, it is still our own flavor of righteousness that can either sweeten or sour how people engage us in the world - for if we are to be good witnesses of the faith, it must be in what we do and what we say. We should promote harmony, not bicker about who is going to heaven and who is going to hell.
Thank God, however, that His Grace supercedes all this sillyness. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Be well, Betty.
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"What we honor as prudence in our elders is simply panic in action."
Posts: 8 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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TEXASGRANDMA
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The Apostles died because they dared to preach the truth that Jesus is the only way to Heaven.
Yes, I do believe that Universal Salvation is a lie from the pits of hell. Jesus says that He is the only way to Heaven and if anyone try to enter into Heaven except through Him, they are a thief.
A Christian should never think that they are better than anyone else. It is faith through Jesus that saves our souls not our own righteousness.
There are many in the world today that are in prison for standing up for their faith in God. They do this because they love the Lord. Those who teach universal salvation are liars and the truth is not in them.
betty
1Jo 2:4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1Jo 2:5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him1Jo 2:6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Hbr 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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MercifulFate
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"Teaching others, that all will be saved, is a lie from the devil."
I seriously doubt this.
"If all will be saved, then the Apostles died in vain. For if all will be saved, and then they need not have died for sharing their faith."
I am not quite following your line of reasoning here.
"It is not doing anyone a favor to give them a false hope of Heaven, separate from salvation through Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus came to save the lost and all we have to do is accept His gift of salvation."
We must all be in the wrong religion then if this is really the case.
I am reminded what Thomas Merton had to say about those who were obsessed with salvation, believing they had "arrived":
"They believe they have all the answers to all questions they do not have the wherewithall to ask in the first place."
It is not my desire to squabble with you or with anyone else. I just feel you and I (and perhaps many others) have a fundamental difference in our interpretation of what faith is really about and what it is for. Because we believe ourselves to be "Christians", does not make us any better than anyone else - and to believe as such is quite condescending to the rest of humanity. I am sorry you feel this way.
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"What we honor as prudence in our elders is simply panic in action."
Posts: 8 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Teaching others, that all will be saved, is a lie from the devil. If all will be saved, then the Apostles died in vain. For if all will be saved, and then they need not have died for sharing their faith. It is not doing anyone a favor to give them a false hope of Heaven, separate from salvation through Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus came to save the lost and all we have to do is accept His gift of salvation.
betty
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:14-18.
Matthew 10 “But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”
Jhn 6:37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
JOHN 5:24 NKJ
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."
JOHN 3:14-18 NKJ
14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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MercifulFate
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I was reflecting and praying about to (or with, whichever you prefer) God about why it is that the whole concept of the Rapture is particularly disturbing. After much careful thought, or what I hope is careful thought, grounded in faith of an omnipotent, yet infinitely merciful Lord, I have come to these conclusions, which I shall share with you in the most gentle way possible. I forewarn you, I will most likely fail miserably. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
In the course of the history of Christianity, there have been many pseudo-revelations that concerned themselves with the end of the world, the end of all things. A book entitled, "Rapture: The End-Times Error That Leaves the Bible Behind," by David B. Curie, spends a good portion in the introduction and first chapters chronicling the various "end-times" beliefs that have arisen throughout the millennia - and, ultimately, how they eventually passed into history as mere misinterpretations. In each of these eras, or, epochs, if you will, the end-times beliefs were a reflection of how the righteous manipulated revelation as a method of critiquing the social and *perceived* spiritual illnesses these believers had miraculously avoided simply by believing in a manifestation of Divine Wrath that never came to pass. The world went on, and the proof is that we are here today, still.
If history is to teach us anything, it is that is cyclical - for humans never really change from age to age. What does change, apart from being itself, is ourselves through time, and hopefully, with the grace of Divine Love. That sentiment alone, the grace of Divine Love, projects a profound truth into the depths of our hearts that is inescapable - that God only does things in our best interest, and is infinitely patient. It in the face of Jesus that we see the manifestation of this Divine Love and grace. This is difficult to accept as human beings and I certainly fought it for a number of years. But because we are mortal creatures with desires, hopes, dreams, and unfortunately judgments, I believe it is natural to align ourselves with those who believe in similar ways, for it cocoons and protects ourselves from ever having to go outside of ourselves; we can be content within ourselves, our thoughts, our beliefs, but we really never grow. Having a sincere faith in the grace of Divine Love, however, requires that we go outside of ourselves, as God did with Himself through His incarnate self, Jesus Christ.
This next section is somewhat long, but I believe it is worth sharing, because it reflects a beautiful sentiment regarding what we as Christians are called upon to believe:
"If God is love, as the New Testament teaches us, hell must be impossible. At the least, it represents a supreme anomaly. In no case can being a Christian imply believing more in hell than in Christ. Being a Christian means, first of all, believing in Christ, and if the question arises, hoping that it will be impossible that there is a hell for men because the love with which we are loved will ultimately be victorious.
And yet this love has not always extinguished our freedom, for a love bestowed will always have to be a love [that is responded to]. Neither Christ nor the Spirit nor the Father, no one, can do anything against a freedom that closes itself up so much within itself that the more the love bestowed shows itself to be infinite, the more its refusal makes of itself an absolute. But such a refusal, which is an absurdity itself, cannot be regarded as the ultimate word on "ultimate things". The Gospel never presents such a refusal to us a credible possibility that Jesus could be satisfied to accept.
For hell is the real absurdity. It is no part of a whole in which it might have a meaningful place, but is a true outrage that is not able to be affirmed. It is an act of violence that freedom can inflict upon itself but that is not willed by God and never can be willed. Now, this absurdity nevertheless exists in at least one case: for the one whom Jesus reveals to us at the absolute liar and supreme destroyer of men. (Jn 8:44) Apart from that case, hell, this unthinkable and absurd thing, still retains in the Gospel the character of a possibility. But that is to be correctly understood: if we speak of a refusal of love, then never of God who would never refuse love.
There will never be beings unloved by God, since God is absolute love. Should that case exist, then God would have to find himself accused - even if it were only in a single case - of not having truly loved. Therefore we must read the New Testament, and read it ever anew, in the light of Divine Love. Certainly there is talk of fire, worm and the second death that excludes one from the kingdom. Christ does not recognize the evildoers, but rather distances them from him, without shame nor abandonment. But hell, as a refusal of divine love, always exists on one side only: on the side of him who persists in creating it for himself. It is, however, impossible that God himself could cooperate in the slightest of way in the aberration, above all, not for the purpose of vindicating the magnificence of his denied love through the triumph of his righteousness, as has, unfortunately, often been claimed.
Thus, if there is any reaction in God to the existence of hell - and how could there not be such a reaction? - then it is one of pain, not of ratification; God would, so to speak, find a brand burned into his flesh: we can guess that it has the form of the Cross. Our pain in the face of hell would then only be an echo of his own pain. The meaning of the New Testament text is thus surely not 'Hear of what is to befall you' but rather 'Hear of what should in no case befall you'. If Christ speaks to us in the Gospel of the possibility of man's becoming lost through a refusal of love, then certainly this is not in the order it should happen. How could Christ, who has thrown himself against death and sin, impose such a loss, even consent to it, given that he has, after all, done everything to avoid it?
Should, however, God's love be absolutely refused, then this refusal would amount to the senseless struggle to create a counterworld that would be the opposite of life, and thus a radical decreation of itself. L'au-dela retrouve. Christologie des fins dernieres."
My assessment of such a miniature tome is that if one truly believes that God is Love and Hell is an absolute definite, then one is spiritually schizophrenic, if such a thing is possible. To believe in the annihilation of non-believers, and then adopt a sort of righteous pity, damnation and mortal judgment veiled as hope, for those that they will be saved, is condescending and elitist - something I believe Jesus Himself would never, ever endorse or support. We are ultimately called upon as Christians to align ourselves and BE with God first.
Now, regarding the modern Rapture that belongs to our particular age, it is especially dangerous. The reason being is that there is a movement among fundamentalists to use bits and pieces of the Bible and sew them together into a sort of Frankenstein of spiritual truths. And what makes this dangerous (dangerous in the sense that it is damaging to the soul) is that this method of scriptural architecture without Jesus as the cornerstone, is no better at revealing the path to God than using crop circles to predict the next bull market in the economy. There are deep and profound truths in the Bible, both blatantly apparent and hidden. However, these truths must be revealed in the proper context, which is
Jesus Himself, wholly human and wholly Divine.
The only Truth is that God loves us and invites us into Himself as creations of his Divine Nature to experience the infinite fullness of His being. And thus, if one is truly to be fundamentalist, to align oneself with whom is fundamental in all things, and take solace in place of fear in the word, namely scripture, which is Him, once must read scripture with Jesus as His *being* as the backdrop BEFORE the words are absorbed into the intellect and the heart.
And with that, I leave you with all with this one line of scripture to ponder:
1 Timothy 4:10: "...we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially Christians."
That’s fairly clear. There is no hoping here that God is the savior of all. Regardless, one of the potentially frightening or serene truths about the nature of God is that we can only really say what is true about God. We could squabble amongst ourselves until the moon turns to blood. What a profound waste of time.
Be well all.
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"What we honor as prudence in our elders is simply panic in action."
Posts: 8 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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timspong
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I agree that a correct reading of scripture is adversely affected by our presuppositions. I would go a bit further and suggest that these same suppositions also affected how scripture was translated into English from the original Greek and Hebrew.
Another huge problem is that many people take scripture out of context to support their presuppositions. Lastly, nowadays people are very quick to “spiritualize” text that can completely change what scripture is actually saying.
Context is king and scripture says what it means and means what it says. If it doesn’t say what it means then it could mean absolutely anything.
I have given you the correct hermeneutics on a few of those passages you mentioned.
quote:
Originally posted by desertdweller:
Acts 3: 19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
---For God to restore everything? Some translations have reconciliation of all things.
You have cut this off a little short. He is not saying he will restore everything that ever was. He is going to restore the things that God promised to restore. Ie “restore everything as promised”
quote:
1 Tim 4: 9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
---Especially doesn’t mean only. Maybe it means believers need it more.
The word “all” here is translated from the greek word “pas”. Pas can mean “all” or “all kinds of” or “each” or “any” depending on the context. It is the same greek word used in the KJV translation 1 Ti 6:10. For the love of money is the root of “all” evil:
However we know that sexual sin and idolatry etc are not money orientated which is why the NIV realized the context and changed it to “all kinds of evil”.
Also the word used for savior “soter” can also mean preserver ie as in “common grace” rather than “saving grace”.
Therefore he could be saying “we have put our hope in the living God, who is the preserver of all kind of men especially believers.
It is all a bit ambiguous, I know, but for a more in depth study you can follow this link:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2002-March/020110.html
However, it doesn’t really detract from what Paul is saying to Timothy as he is not talking about Salvation (soteriology) at all. He is emphasizing the Holiness and power of God. For a better understanding of salvation it is better to use scripture that specifically targets that subject ie soteriology.
quote:
Col 1: 24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.
---what is lacking in Christ’s sufferings. Maybe if Christ were there now he would be suffering still?
The thrust of what Paul is saying here is that the body of Christ as a whole (not Christ himself) must go through a finite amount of suffering. Paul is rejoicing that the more he suffers the less others (in the body) have to suffer.
quote:
Romans 8 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Remember in Romans 8.30 he is talking about his elect. I.e. everyone he predestined, he called, all he called he justified, all he justified he glorified. So essentially Paul is saying that the elect will definitely be saved, nothing can possibly change that fact.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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becauseHElives
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posted
quote:
Although, I am now Baptist, I was raised in an Assembly of God. I do not understand the Once saved always saved belief. So, I am in no position to debate it. I honestly do not know if it is true or not. I want to stay as close to Jesus as I can. I do not believe in trying to see how much you can get away with and still be saved. betty
great answer betty ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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As far as repentance and trying to get away with something eventhough we are saved, I think that most of us, with the help that we as bornagain Christians can now get from the Holy Spirit, it would be SILLY to assume that I would make my life now WORSE than I was making it BEFORE I believed.
Com'on, borngain Christians do one of two things: either they stay about the same as they were (carnal Christians), or they become a little nicer and sweeter and considerate with the help of the Holy Spirit. The odds of someone becoming WORSE after they become Christians are like winning the state lottery!
With love, Eden
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Eden
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desertdweller, yours is a long post, but I’ll try to answer a few parts. You said:
Universalism……I wouldn’t say I’m a universalist if that means that everyone is automatically escorted into the presence of God forever without dealing with the state they’re in.
Eden here:
No, universalism in a Christian sense means that a person thinks that ALL PEOPLE ON EARTH WILL EVENTUALLY BE SAVED. The Bible seems to say that the MAJORITY of the people will be DESTROYED and will not get to participate in the world-to-come period which Jesus has opened up to “all who believe in Jesus”.
Now, whether a Buddhist has the SAME opportunity to save himself as say, a Christian in Europe or Canada or the USA who would not be condemned for becoming a Christian in the USA, but a Buddhist might have to pay a much heavier price for choosing to be a Christian in Hindu India, for instance.
desertdweller continues:
But I also don’t see things in terms of reward and punishment, but in terms of sickness (and degrees thereof) and health. And I do believe we are saved by grace and not works, but that also doesn’t mean the Buddhist is automatically damned because of being Buddhist.
Eden here: As far as I can see from the Bible, the Buddhist IS automatically damned if he DIES a Buddhist, unless Jesus gives even the dead who have NOT HAD AN EQUAL CHANCE TO HEAR, one more opportunity to hear and decide, which is a possibility. I do think it is easier to become a Christian in the USA than in, say, Saudi Arabia.
desertdweller continues:
Christians are the most blessed because we get to carry people to Christ as did those carrying the sick man on the stretcher. But this blessedness is also a responsibility to grow into being mature sons of God – to be Christ-like. And that also does not mean the sick we did not pray for or minister to are damned because we were too busy watching some TV show.
Eden here: In places like the USA and Canada and Europe, there is enough opportunity to hear “gospel” on TV and radio and elsewhere that our personal TV watching will not be counted against us. Here in places like the USA, there is enough gospel that the sick CAN and MUST decide for themselves whether Jesus is what He is said He was and came to do.
Ddesertdweller continues:
Think of the sociopath – there’s an extreme degree of someone crazy who is clearly doing evil things – like serial killer who have voices telling them to kill people. Let’s say such a person is killed by police in some confrontation….is he damned in your theology when even we, who are not compassionate, compared to God, recognize that there is a fine line between evil and lunacy?
Eden here: Yes, I currently would say that if he does not believe in Jesus in the USA where gospel opportunity abounds, he would be lost. But maybe if it happened in Saudi Arabia, he would have been given one more fair opportunity even after death.
desertdweller continues:
And, that also doesn’t mean that I think we should or God does have nothing but a ‘poor thing’ attitude towards those who are enmeshed in an evil lifestyle (let’s say child molesters). On the other hand, God also sees that the person was also molested as a child, sees what is going on in all the facets of the person’s heart, will, mind, soul…and so doesn’t paint the person with one brushstroke of ‘wicked’ and that’s all there is to say. If that were the case, none of us would be saved.
Eden here: Yes, but at some point has to put a stop to the earth condition too, and we are all equal sinners, so God had to set up a device by which He would get the kinds of sons and daughters that God was interested in, so God chose the device of Jesus on the cross, and Jesus agreed to do the device of Jesus on the cross for us.
God must have known that that device COULD not and WOULD not attact ALL people to Himself. Was that bec God “only has room in heaven for just SO MANY sons and daughters”?
desertdweller continues:
And, repentance is essential. Otherwise God is equally capricious if He doesn’t care that a person goes about their evil ways with some confidence that there will be no consequences to their behavior.
Eden here: Yes, I do think repentance is necessary. At least, repentance from my foolish ways to using God’s ways since God’s ways are much better and smarter than my ways, and turning to God and and listen to the help of the Holy Spirit.
On the other hand, Jesus suffered and shed His blood on the cross for our sins, but God also said that He did a second thing while Jesus was on the cross, namely God took us, our old man, our first Adamic man, and crucified our old man while Christ was on the cross.
So our old man is also dead as far as God is, and I am, concerned. God dealt both with the sins past by the blood, but God dealt the sin factory, the old man, the first Adamic man, and God nailed that old man to the cross as well while Jesus was on the cross, so that both our past sins are forgiven and our old man IS also nailed to the cross and in the eyes of God, and in my eyes, the old man is now DEAD.
At this point, God only looks at what Jesus produces above the graft in a man or a woman (“dead unto sin” but “alive unto God”).
desertdweller continues:
But the consequences are on them as well as others. They become filled with hate, self-loathing, pride, etc., as they go about spreading the disease of their own sins. And sin does seem like a disease that we spread from person to person as we are sinned against and then do not forgive and go take it out on the next person.
Eden here: Absolutely good or bad spreads in character, behold Solomon and YHWH telling Joshua to absolutely destroy man, woman and child in the conquest of Canaan, lest Israel return to believing idols, etc.
desertdweller continues:
I actually think hell is that state in which the wicked live. Those who are completely without love, both unable to give it and receive it.
Eden here: I used to think that when I was a New Age person, but I now believe in a Biblical hades, tartaros, and Gehenna, and all three are different. And while I believe that wicked people live in a kind of “hell on earth”, the Biblical hades, tartaros nor Gehenna do NOT refer to a “hell on earth” as the wicked might feel. But I do think that being nice makes life more fun experientially than say, being wicked.
desertdweller continues:
Note how in the case of the sociopath we force things upon him for his own good, and don’t regard it a violation of his free-will. Because sanity and freedom are related. Christ, most sane, most free. To the degree the rest of us are captive to some idolatry (any of the sins boil down to that), we are not completely free.
Eden here: Christ completely sane, completely free, not most sane, most free. As for us, we of the first Adamic kind are a million light-years removed from what Jesus the Son of God was like: “We beheld His majesty and His glory”. I’m afraid too many Christians think that if they’ll only be good they’ll almost be like Jesus. Yeah, it’s like Io compared to Jupiter.
desertdweller continues:
Sometimes we see what we’re doing and do it anyway (as Paul complains about). We are weak. Growth in Christ isn’t about becoming strong out of our own will, but letting our weakness be the outline of where we can find a deeper relationship with God. The thing about those most deeply mired in sin is that they often will claim to not need help, not have weaknesses; part of the manifestation of sin-sickness. Maybe when the encounter Jesus they will see more clearly; His presence seemed to have that effect on all but the self-righteous.
Eden here: Okay, all sinners are sin-sick, all have sinned and are falling short of the glory of God. God has provided a means out, and the means is GOD’s and not ours to choose since God has the LEGAL right to destroy us. All sinners are sin-sick and God has decided to convert a few of them into sons and daughters who He will unilaterally MAKE LIKE JESUS.
desertdweller continues:
So I guess I’m the sort of Universalist that counts on God healing us all…eventually….somehow. Because I look at the most wicked – those we love to claim will ‘burn in hell forever’ (such as Hitler) – and I see a sociopath that needs treatment. It still only makes sense to me that God created him out of love as well, and in his particular case, the hatred of a whole nation seemed to distill in him.
Eden here: God CAN heal everyone, even those who don’t LOVE Him or COULDN’T CARE LESS about Him, or God could just SAVE the ones who have the ability, for whatever first Adamic reason, to LOVE God once they see with their eyes and ears and believe with their own heart in this God and Creator—less like a robot than MAKING everyone LIKE Him, sort of thing, it seems God is going to choose the ones who can DIG HIM just as they are, and well, make ashes out of the others and merge those back into the universal “stuff” and those do not get to participate in the next phase of life, the world-to-come thru Jesus.
With love, Eden
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TEXASGRANDMA
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But I also don’t see things in terms of reward and punishment, but in terms of sickness (and degrees thereof) and health. And I do believe we are saved by grace and not works, but that also doesn’t mean the Buddhist is automatically damned because of being Buddhist.
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This is wrong. I know it sounds cruel, but the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is the only door in to Heaven. A person choosing any other way is a thief.
The truth is only Christians go to Heaven. Jesus is the way and only true way to Heaven.
I pray that God will open your eyes to see His truth.
betty
Jhn 10:7¶Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jhn 10:9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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desertdweller
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Eden: Universalism……I wouldn’t say I’m a universalist if that means that everyone is automatically escorted into the presence of God forever without dealing with the state they’re in. That’s as goofy to me as some people being predestined to heaven, some to hell.
But I also don’t see things in terms of reward and punishment, but in terms of sickness (and degrees thereof) and health. And I do believe we are saved by grace and not works, but that also doesn’t mean the Buddhist is automatically damned because of being Buddhist.
Christians are the most blessed because we get to carry people to Christ as did those carrying the sick man on the stretcher. But this blessedness is also a responsibility to grow into being mature sons of God – to be Christ-like. And that also does not mean the sick we did not pray for or minister to are damned because we were too busy watching some TV show.
Think of the sociopath – there’s an extreme degree of someone crazy who is clearly doing evil things – like serial killer who have voices telling them to kill people. Let’s say such a person is killed by police in some confrontation….is he damned in your theology when even we, who are not compassionate, compared to God, recognize that there is a fine line between evil and lunacy?
And, that also doesn’t mean that I think we should or God does have nothing but a ‘poor thing’ attitude towards those who are enmeshed in an evil lifestyle (let’s say child molesters). On the other hand, God also sees that the person was also molested as a child, sees what is going on in all the facets of the person’s heart, will, mind, soul…and so doesn’t paint the person with one brushstroke of ‘wicked’ and that’s all there is to say. If that were the case, none of us would be saved.
And, repentance is essential. Otherwise God is equally capricious if He doesn’t care that a person goes about their evil ways with some confidence that there will be no consequences to their behavior.
But the consequences are on them as well as others. They become filled with hate, self-loathing, pride, etc., as they go about spreading the disease of their own sins. And sin does seem like a disease that we spread from person to person as we are sinned against and then do not forgive and go take it out on the next person.
I actually think hell is that state in which the wicked live. Those who are completely without love, both unable to give it and receive it.
Note how in the case of the sociopath we force things upon him for his own good, and don’t regard it a violation of his free-will. Because sanity and freedom are related. Christ, most sane, most free. To the degree the rest of us are captive to some idolatry (any of the sins boil down to that), we are not completely free.
Sometimes we see what we’re doing and do it anyway (as Paul complains about). We are weak. Growth in Christ isn’t about becoming strong out of our own will, but letting our weakness be the outline of where we can find a deeper relationship with God. The thing about those most deeply mired in sin is that they often will claim to not need help, not have weaknesses; part of the manifestation of sin-sickness. Maybe when the encounter Jesus they will see more clearly; His presence seemed to have that effect on all but the self-righteous.
So I guess I’m the sort of Universalist that counts on God healing us all…eventually….somehow. Because I look at the most wicked – those we love to claim will ‘burn in hell forever’ (such as Hitler) – and I see a sociopath that needs treatment. It still only makes sense to me that God created him out of love as well, and in his particular case, the hatred of a whole nation seemed to distill in him.
Texas Grandma, I think your sentiment about how we shouldn’t try to see ‘how much we can get away with’ is right on. What kind of relationship with God would that be? Sounds like I wouldn’t want a spouse like that. And I also support your claim we should be longing to see Christ face to face. But I also hope ‘the end’ what ever that is – is not until God heals us all. Or maybe God heals some after they die…? Who knows? In any event, such a person I think would only have the mercy of God to bring to God, whereas the Christians who have been working with God for the redemption of all have the privilege of knowing God along the way. God calls Christians to serve….not to special treatment. In fact the call to serve basically guarantees more suffering. We are to take up our cross and follow Him…as crossless Christianity I do not trust.
Regarding the once saved – always saved business……there’s an essay by Jan Von Ruysbroec that seems to apply here. He wrote there are basically 4 stages of Christian faith:
1. The person who only believes in God and follows the commandments out of fear of punishment: God has little respect for this sort of believer, since he’s basically like the opportunistic servant.
2. The person who believes in God and tries to be obedient because he really believes in right and wrong and wants to be righteous because it is better intrinsicly: God has more respect for this, but there is still a fundamental absence of God for God’s sake.
3. The person who has a relationship with Christ and becomes His beloved – this person’s lives for intimacy with Christ. This is better than the first two, but not the most mature….
4. The person who says, ‘Father, thy will be done in me, and anything I can do to help your kingdom, I will do. (and means it). This is even more mature than #3, who is still attached to feelings….where as this last person wants what God wants – such as grown to the full maturity of Christ.
So, yes, #1 may be the wicked servant, and maybe #2 (I’m making this up, of course) is like the virgins who miss out, #3 is like the ones who do watch and pray, and #4 are the called and chosen. Of course such systems like this I don’t actually advocate, since they break down and it’s generally not wise to see the world in such simple categories. But I did find his insight valid that being addicted to spiritual highs is not that mature….
I’ve much enjoyed the essays on Calvinism - I know nothing about it, even though I grew up Presbyterian….
Blessings.
DD
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Although, I am now Baptist, I was raised in an Assembly of God. I do not understand the Once saved always saved belief. So, I am in no position to debate it. I honestly do not know if it is true or not. I want to stay as close to Jesus as I can. I do not believe in trying to see how much you can get away with and still be saved.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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becauseHElives
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There are 2 natures in the believer, or do disagree?
That is the question no one who believes "Once Saved Always Saved" wants to address.
We are talking eternity here.
I don't believe works saves anyone either.
I believe in the Blood and the Blood alone Saves but every day I have a choice, will I continue to trust the Blood, or will I return to sin like a dog to his vomit.
I don't believe you can be lost and saved, lost and saved, lost and saved .....
but Yahweh will not force you to yield to the Spirit
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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TEXASGRANDMA
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sorry I won't argue with you. I believe Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ and not in works. I am looking everyday for Jesus return.
May God bless you today.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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becauseHElives
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Betty read,
24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
24:46 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
the scriptures are line upon line, precept upon precept.....
there are 2 natures in the believer, or do disagree?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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TEXASGRANDMA
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24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
24:46 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
24:49 And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of,
24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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This shows that the person was evil and had began to take part in evil ways. This is not talking a Christian but an evil man.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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TEXASGRANDMA
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If we believe that salvation is a gift of God then all who are saved will be taken in the rapture. Either we believe Salvation is enough or we believe that Jesus’ death was only half the job.
It is possible that the 5 virgins were those who think they are Christians, because they attend Church but are not saved. They look like they are saved from the outside but their hearts are like the Pharisees, still dead in side.
Jesus made it clear to the man on the cross beside Him, when he said that he would be in paradise that day. This man knew nothing about Biblical prophecy, but his faith in Jesus saved Him.
In our study of the end times, there was mention a special crown that will be given to those who looked with joy on the return of Jesus. Those who are saved but are not looking for Jesus return will not receive this crown. The more I grow closer to God the more I long for Jesus to return. I don’t see how a Christian who is on fire for God cannot look for the soon return of their Groom. But, I don’t believe Christians will be left behind, because then salvation becomes about works.
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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becauseHElives
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quote:
Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
So Betty, care to try and make the above verse fit your theology. (How many lost people are watching and praying?)
Some will be counted worthy, some will not.
Just like in the parable of the 10 virgins!
All scripture is profitable or doctrine, instruction and reproof, we have to make all scripture harmonize, we can not just pick bits and pieces that fit our thinking.
To all on the subject of suffering….
.Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you].
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
Our suffering does nothing to add to Yeshua suffering for the Salvation of mankind, but suffering is one of the main ways mankind learns to be like Yeshua.
Tts 2:11-15
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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Hi, desertdweller. You said:
I think if the rapture is true (which I don’t think it is, not at least current presentations…), then I would rather stay behind with the lost.
Eden here:
This surprised me. I liked your theology, but how can you NOT believe in the rapture?
I think the Bible makes it reasonably clear that there will come a time when Jesus comes and then those who are bornagain Christians on earth WILL NOT DIE but will miraculously JOIN the oncoming DEAD Christians who are coming to earth with Jesus, THAT is called the RAPTURE, when Jesus comes those who are ALIVE on earth and are bornagain Christians, those are lifted up from earth like Jesus at Bethany by the mount of Olives when Jesus ascended out of their sight.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we who are ALIVE and REMAIN unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are ALIVE and REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
desertdweller, what about the above paragraph is there not to like and believe, in the context of these two 1 Thessalonian 4 verses?
Are you still making the statement:
"I think if the rapture is true (which I don’t think it is, not at least current presentations…), then I would rather stay behind with the lost"?
Be blessed,
Eden
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Eden
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Hi, desertdweller. You said:
Acts 3:
19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
20and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
---For God to restore everything? Some translations have reconciliation of all things.
1 Tim 4: 9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
Eden here:
Hi, desertdweller, someone has already asked you if you were “universalist”, so I wanted to address that subject and the above 2 verses for a moment.
As for the phrase, “until the time comes for God to restore everything” (Acts 3:21 above), yes, God WILL restore everything, but not with the wicked included. The wicked will be ashes under the feet of the righteous, but the way WILL come when God will restore everything, namely the rule by Jesus Christ starts and beyond that with the creation of a new sky-heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
But that phrase is NOT a clarion call for universal salvation.
As for the phrase, “God, who is the Savior of ALL men” (1 Tim 4:9 above), God is indeed the Savior of ALL men in that God ACCOUNTED that Jesus was precious enough to be counted as JESUS DIED FOR ALL in order that “anyone” and “whosoever” could believe if they wanted to and could in Jesus.
Therefore God IS the Savior of ALL men, but because NOT all men will believe in Jesus’s substitutionary death, thus NOT all men will be saved. This phrase is thus also not a clarion call for universalism, “God is the Savior of ALL men, but not all men will be saved.”
1 Tim 4: 9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
As for the expanded phrase, “who is the Savior of all men, and [b]especially of those who believe[b]”, not only does God Save those who believed, but God HELPS those who believe and SAVES THEM TO THE UTTERMOST because they are His newly adopted sons and daughters. So God is a Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.”
But never a clarion call unto universal salvation, desertdweller.
Be greatly blessed. I like your writings.
Eden
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I don't question your salvation, nor will I defend mine. I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior at age 7. I believe the light of Heaven will be God, Himself.
betty
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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cbou4668
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Why do they quote Proverbs instead of Psalms. Every church I have been to, they quote Proverbs.
Texas we must be posting at the same time. We both claim to be Christians, but we definitly don't see the Bible in the same light.
Do you believe that the only light in Heaven will be the light that comes from each and every individual there?
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Christians do not have a relationship with Solomon. We have a relationship with Jesus.
There will no be peace on earth until the Second Coming when Jesus returns as conquering King and removes evil from the earth. We are not working for an earthly home but for a heavenly home.
Christians are not to blame for the evil of this world. Satan is the ruler of earth until Jesus puts him in the pit for a 1000 years.
The meek that will inhert the earth will be after the tribulation.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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cbou4668
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Never said anything about praying to Solomon. I do believe it isn't popular to understand that Solomon was a bad guy though. Obviously there is a problem with today’s Faith because it is less than it was when Christ walked the Earth. There has to be a solution and I have only proposed that believing that there is the potential of blasphemy for Christians today not to recognize that potential in relationship to King Solomon. There is a problem for Christians because they aren't as strong with Faith to avert the violence of the terrorist. To just accept that this is the way things have to be with the sword, as the only defense against the terrorist doesn't sound like the meek will inherit the Earth. Where is the super power of Faith? It will be the Christians held accountable for the lack of Faith in changing the planet away from violence. The United States has a bomb so powerful that they are afraid to test it. It is called the "Alpha-Omega" bomb. The cobalt bomb is so stronge that it could ignite the atmosphere. I have a very real grasp of how serious this is. This is not some hold onto my sanity because my wife is a heathen type of Faith. It is I don't want to be blamed for not trying Faith.
The point Texas is making is like the reasoning given to the Israelites upon enting the Promised Land "It isn't because of your righteousness that you enter the land I am giving you, it is because I am a God of His Word." Something like that...
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Rom 11:6And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Eph 2:5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Rom 3:24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Gal 2:21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Tts 3:7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
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On further thought, I don't believe a Christian will be left behind. I believe those verses making clear that salvation is a gift not earned.
betty
P.S. Solomon has nothing to do with our salvation. We do NOT pray to Solomon nor is he involved with our salvation.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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cbou4668
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The way God said, through the Prophets, He would restore all things was basically peace would be restored as a reward for turning back to Him and asking for it. Doing away with blasphemy is that return to God. Trust is an ultimate. Also, a promise is an ultimate. How quickly would I return to you and heal you if only you would turn to me. To me Paul sounds presumptuous of God in verses Col 1:15-20. Col 1:24 sounds like Paul believed that his body's suffering was adding to Christ's suffering which I think he must of thought that more suffering was needed. Personally I don't think that more suffering in Christ's name is needed, but Faith that the meek will inherit the Earth is needed. I don't believe in any denomination as the one true following. I think that they are all blasphemous for not recognizing King Solomon for the scoundrel he is. They should have a warning, you can quote Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, but a man that turned out to be a good guy gone bad wrote those books.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Can a person be a Christian and not be ready for the rapture?
I honestly do not know. But I do believe that if you are a Chrisitan and you are serving God and looking for the return of Jesus, you will not be left behind.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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becauseHElives
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quote:
Betty,
If you are a Christian, you will go in the rapture. If are left behind, you are not a child of God and you do not have fellowship with God.
The scriptures will not totally support the position that all Christians will be part of the Rapture.
Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Matthew Henry commentary ….
Christ tells his disciples to observe the signs of the times, which they might judge by. He charges them to look upon the ruin of the Jewish nation as near. Yet this race and family of Abraham shall not be rooted out; it shall survive as a nation, and be found as prophesied, when the Son of man shall be revealed. He cautions them against being secure and sensual. This command is given to all Christ's disciples, Take heed to yourselves, that ye be not overpowered by temptations, nor betrayed by your own corruptions. We cannot be safe, if we are carnally secure. Our danger is, lest the day of death and of judgment should come upon us when we are not prepared. Lest, when we are called to meet our Lord, that be the furthest from our thoughts, which ought to be nearest our hearts. For so it will come upon the most of men, who dwell upon the earth, and mind earthly things only, and have no converse with heaven. It will be a terror and a destruction to them. Here see what should be our aim, that we may be accounted worthy to escape all those things; that when the judgments of God are abroad, we may not be in the common calamity, or it may not be that to us which it is to others. Do you ask how you may be found worthy to stand before Christ at that day? Those who never yet sought Christ, let them now go unto him; those who never yet were humbled for their sins, let them now begin; those who have already begun, let them go forward and be kept humbled. Watch therefore, and pray always. Watch against sin; watch in every duty, and make the most of every opportunity to do good. Pray always: those shall be accounted worthy to live a life of praise in the other world, who live a life of prayer in this world. May we begin, employ, and conclude each day attending to Christ's word, obeying his precepts, and following his example, that whenever he comes we may be found watching.
Also consider the parable of the 10 virgins…
They were all virgins but only 5 made it to the marriage….
Only those ready to meet the Lord will make the rapture.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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TEXASGRANDMA
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DD
"Regarding looking forward to heaven and all…….I cannot honestly imagine enjoying heaven knowing others God loves are not there. Makes no sense to me. And I don’t buy that God will ‘make us forget’ about the lost in heaven, - that sounds creepy. The closer we get to Christ, the more I think we should feel that another’s salvation is our own."
--------------------------------------------------Before God sent His Son, Jesus, to die for us, He knew that many would reject salvation, yet Jesus loved mankind so much that He was willing to make the sacrifice for those who would accept Jesus as His Savior. God is not going to close down Heaven because some will refuse to accept the gift of salvation. Should we grief for those who refuse the gift of salvation? Yes Should refuse the gift because all want except? of course not!!!
We can look forward to Heaven without guilt.
Jhn 17:9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Jhn 17:10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
It is dangerous what you are saying. When you cannot accept that all will not be saved, then you are opening your heart to believing unversial salvation, which is a lie from the pits of hell.
Yes, I do believe there is a point in Heaven will God will remove from our memory all those we knew who were not saved. This is not cruel on God's part, but an act of kindness. At that point nothing can be done to saved the loss. Only the removal of our memory of their existence can make us enjoy Heaven.
You need not doubt God's love because some refuse salvation. We are all given a choice to choose God or not.
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"I guess I experience Christ as within so being here or there or left behind at the rapture doesn’t matter. Scripture says we can’t be separated from God no matter what, so being in the here and now seem very important."
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It does matter if you are left behind. If you are a Christian, you will go in the rapture. If are left behind, you are not a child of God and you do not have fellowship with God.
Seriously, no one wants to be here during the tribulation. The Bible makes it clear that it will be a time, like this earth has never experienced before. A time of great sorrow and pain. Yes, there will be some saved during the rapture, but they will die a martyr’s death.
Like I said before the Marraige Supper is going to be a glorious time for the Christians and this event, I do not want to miss.
Grief for the lost, but rejoice in your salvation, for it is a gift from God.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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becauseHElives
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quote:
BecauseHELives – would you be willing to share your denomination?
desertdweller, I would be glad to share my denomination.
I am....
part Baptist,
part Mennonite,
part Amish,
part Assemble of God,
part Word of Faith,
part Presbyterian,
part Home Fellowship
I believe Yahweh has a small remnant in the earth today, I pray I am part of that remnant. Yeshua said when He returned would He find Faith present on the earth. (True Faith in Yeshua/Jesus is hard to find in the earth topday.)
I love the whole of Scripture not just bits and pieces, I trust in the Blood alone for Salvation nothing added,
but I don't believe in sloppy Grace, which is what most Churches preaches and most Christian believe.
I believe the Gate is Straight and the Path is narrow that leads to Eternal Life and few will be saved.
Bless you and may your Faith be found True in the Day of judgment.
becauseHElive, Dale
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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desertdweller
Advanced Member
Member # 6383
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posted
I think to a large extent there is a denominational difference in the view of suffering. The newer historically the denomination, it seems, the more there is the tendency to view suffering as something evil - there is not a common view of redemption suffering, how Christians can participate in the suffering of Christ for the good of others. (I say this is Christ's sufferings we get a share of, because I think he suffers more deeply than we do, being more sensitive.)
BecauseHELives – would you be willing to share your denomination? I’m just wondering if my hypothesis above matches with what you wrote – which I liked very much. I agree that suffering cannot be colored with one brush – there are different sorts for different reasons.
The sort of suffering that seems new with Christ is redemptive…..before that we already had suffering due to our own stupidity or as a form of chastisement. Maybe we had altruistic suffering to a certain degree anyway with how all parents have to put up with teen-age children!
Regarding looking forward to heaven and all…….I cannot honestly imagine enjoying heaven knowing others God loves are not there. Makes no sense to me. And I don’t buy that God will ‘make us forget’ about the lost in heaven, - that sounds creepy. The closer we get to Christ, the more I think we should feel that another’s salvation is our own.
I probably won’t get this story exactly right….but I think it was about the desert hermit Anthony. One day God told him he’d show him the holiest man – and told him to go to the city, which surprised him, since Anthony left the city to escape its evil, etc. God told him to sit under the window of a certain shopkeeper and just to listen….. All day what Anthony hear was that the shopkeeper, every time someone walked past his window, prayed, ‘Dear God, if that person is to be lost, let me be lost instead of him.’
I guess I experience Christ as within so being here or there or left behind at the rapture doesn’t matter. Scripture says we can’t be separated from God no matter what, so being in the here and now seem very important.
DD
Posts: 51 | Registered: Feb 2007
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