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Topic: Do you agree with T.U.L.I.P. ?
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KnowHim
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Member # 1
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posted
I believe the greatest tragedy is when alliance to TULIP leads to division in churches and prevents them from cooperation in, and urgency for, a passion toward fulfilling the Great Commission. The greatest safeguard is for followers in Jesus Christ to remain close to the heart of Jesus whose mission was "to seek and save those who are lost" (Luke 19:10) and to draw our doctrines from inerrant Scripture — not from a man-made system. We should be first, last, and always followers of Jesus Christ, not John Calvin.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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KnowHim
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posted
I do not believe in the T.U.L.I.P. nor in Calvinism.
Primoa1970 or anyone else, just how would you know that you are one of the chosen ones?
What if you are one of the ones that was born to go to hell?
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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timspong
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
What do you bornagain Christians like Timspong and others think about the TEST God YHWH of Israel had to use when God YHWH of Israel was confronted with "the problem" that "all have sinned and are equal sinners because they have all fallen short of the glory of God"?
Once God YHWH of Israel was faced with the problem of all being "equal sinners", tell me, timspong and others, what should God DO NEXT to ACQUIRE HIMSELF ADOPTED SONS AND DAUGHTERS?
in Christian love I can live, Eden
I don't want to lead anyone to my particular thoughts on this matter as they are by no means the common veiw. However, I would suggest a good thourough reading of Romans 9 thru 11.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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Thunderz7
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Member # 31
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posted
1Tim. 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(just my opinion-looks like YHWH wants all to be saved)
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
(just my opinion-if YHWH wants all saved and is no respecter of persons, HE would not predestine some to be saved and any to hell)
Eph.1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(just my opinion-YHWH has predestinated all to the good)
Eph. 1:10 That in the dispensation of the
fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[just my opinion-we have a choise in the obtaining of the inheritance predestined for us]
Rom. 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
guess I'm not a tulip!
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
What do you bornagain Christians like Timspong and others think about the TEST God YHWH of Israel had to use when God YHWH of Israel was confronted with "the problem" that "all have sinned and are equal sinners because they have all fallen short of the glory of God"?
Once God YHWH of Israel was faced with the problem of all being "equal sinners", tell me, timspong and others, what should God DO NEXT to ACQUIRE HIMSELF ADOPTED SONS AND DAUGHTERS?
in Christian love I can live, Eden
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timspong
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Member # 5240
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by artm:
Well praise the Lord everybody.
I would like to respond to those who are teaching once saved always saved, Also known as eternal security.
This Error teaches that once a person has been saved it is impossible for one to loose that salvation.
We could look at Judas,in Acts 1:25 Where it tells us that the Apostles were looking for someone to take Judas place,
Luke said, " speaking of Judas repalcement, That he may take part of this Ministry and Apostleship,From which Judas by trangression fell,That he might go to his own place."
The Bible is clear. Judas fell through transgression(sin), He must have had salvation if he could fall.
And the Bible says that he " Went to his own place " Which is Hell,Judas died lost.
Now thgose who teach the error of once saved always saved,will tell you that Judas was never saved to begin with,But that is not what the Word of God tells us.
But that won't matter to those in error,They will just continue to take Scripture out of context so that they can bolster their error even more.
Ezekiel 18:24 clearly tells us that, If a Righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, His righteousness shall not be mentioned,
He will die in his sin and be lost.
Now the Bible is clear on this but those in the error of once saved always saved will deny this truth to the end.
It is a dangerous position to hold,Do not be deceived,God is not mocked,whatsoever a man sows,that shall he also reap.
I pray this error is exposed before it is to late. One can be saved believing this error, But if one uses this error to condone deliberate sin in one's life,they will be sadly mistaken.
Art.
Let me just say that you are not saved until you are actually resurrected and attain eternal life.
When someone says they are saved they should really be saying “I have the hope of salvation”. How do we really know those that are genuinely saved?
Mt 7:21-22
21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
The elect are genuinely saved, and cannot help but do the will of God. It may take some time to mature in Christ, but their propensity for God’s will is certain. That is where all the “faith without works is dead” and “branches that don’t produce fruit will be burned” language comes from. Don’t get me wrong, works have nothing to do with salvation itself, but it is a reflection of the Holy Spirit working in our lives.
The elect were chosen before the world was established and the elect will certainly attain eternal life. Others may think they are saved but in reality don’t really believe in the atoning work of Christ in their heart.
Rv 17:8
The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
Eph 1:4-5
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will
Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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timspong
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Juggernaut:
I think that this must be the main disagreement then. You believe that I can not choose to follow God on my own. I believe that I can choose to follow God, but not recive salvation on my own. I can not do anything by my own will that would save me.
What I should have said is that man can know God but he is unable to perceive and accept the atoning work of Christ, i.e. Gods plan for salvation. We do not have the capacity. It is like saying I can use my free will to fly, but I simply do not have the capability to do so.
Man on his own can look at the stars and flowers and perceive the existence of God, but he is unable to come to Christ as the way the truth and the life.
There is a lot of language in the bible that talks of this belief here is a sample:
Acts 13.48 – As many as were ordained to eternal life believed
(notice that it doesn’t say “as many as believed were ordained to eternal life” – neither in English or in the original Greek)
Eph 2.8-9- For by grace you are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift from God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (implying that faith is also a gift)
Acts 2:47 …. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved
(notice it doesn’t say that certain people decided to join the church)
John 15:16 You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you
John 6.65 … no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the father
Romans 3:9-18 For there is none righteous and none seek after God
quote:
I think that my main frustration with the whole choosing thing is that it means that God loves some more than others. To choose somebody to go to hell and someone else to go to heaven, means that God is selective in His love. But this clearly goes against the most famous verse of them all John 3:16 For God so loved the world... Not; For God so loved those particular few that He has so chosen in the world. No, it is the whole world that God loves. That is why I believe that the initial choice is ours to make. We have to choose to believe that there is a God and that His Son died for our sins.
God doesn’t Choose those to go to hell as that is where we are all heading anyway.
Also John 3.16 is probably the most miss-interpreted verses in the bible. For a full exegesis see the “about John 3.16” on this link:
http://www.salvationbygrace.org/default.aspx?ct=sub/qa
Another very common objection to this theology is that it God is too loving to choose between us.
God is Love, of course, but this kind of term always appears in scripture in reference to the correct character that a Christian should display.
A much better description of God is “God is Holy” – i.e. He is holy first and foremost. His actions towards many who were destroyed in the OT were born from His absolute holiness rather than His love. Remember God must always punish sin.
I agree that Gods elective grace is very unfair. In fact, the most unfair thing that ever happened in the history of the world was for Christ to be punished for our sins. The last thing we should wish for is fairness. What we need is mercy and grace not fairness.
It is really a matter of perspective.
Isa 55:8-9 For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
As to the criteria God uses to choose those he wishes to save, scripture tells us:
Ro 9:14-23
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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Primoa1970
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Member # 1016
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posted
I agree with you Java....
We shouldn't split hairs over this. I know that my salvation is secure in Christ regardless of what anyone says. If Christ couldn't secure it....then who can? Me? I don't think so. But you're right....we shouldn't let this issue divide us. (It's almost as bad as when I bring up the issue of speaking in tongues....which I also don't agree with...but we'll save that for a future post)
And artm....
From what I can see according to scripture....Judas was never saved to begin with. True...he was with the 12. He witnessed the same miracles that they did. But the seed never fell on good ground or good soil (like all Christians are). He never bore good fruit to begin with.
I struggle to say this but....in the end, he was remorseful for what he had done. He recognized that he had sinned by taking the 30 pieces of silver. I almost want to believe that he repented and we might just see him in the kingdom (even though he killed himself, I believe that suicide is just as forgiveable as any other sin)...but that's not up to me to decide. After all....Judas was destined to do what he did according to prophetic scripture. If he never did this, then the Old Testament would be inaccurate.
But let me stress again....regardless of your position (Calvinist, Armenian, or somewhere in between)....you are my brothers and sisters in Christ and if you're truly born again, we will meet in heaven someday.
And I look forward to that day.....so that we can switch our argument from "Calvinist/Armenian" over to "who gets to go inside Paul's mansion first".
-Primo
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1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Posts: 639 | From: Orlando, FL | Registered: Feb 2003
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JAVA
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Member # 4576
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posted
NO. I do not agree with anything that splits the tiniest hairs and seperates Christian brothers and sisters. Now while intelectuals will need to chew the fat on issues like this I would like to stress that in these modern times of persecution I think that we should unite as a body under Christ. This is not directed at you posters to this thread, ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif) but to people who seperate themselves over trivial discrepencies that divide us rather than the love of Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.
Now...let it go against The Word...Look out cause I'm comin for ya! ![[mad2]](graemlins/mad2.gif)
![[dance]](graemlins/dance1.gif)
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JAVA, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose."
Posts: 147 | From: Columbia South Carolina | Registered: Apr 2005
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artm
Advanced Member
Member # 6243
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posted
Well praise the Lord everybody.
I would like to respond to those who are teaching once saved always saved, Also known as eternal security.
This Error teaches that once a person has been saved it is impossible for one to loose that salvation.
We could look at Judas,in Acts 1:25 Where it tells us that the Apostles were looking for someone to take Judas place,
Luke said, " speaking of Judas repalcement, That he may take part of this Ministry and Apostleship,From which Judas by trangression fell,That he might go to his own place."
The Bible is clear. Judas fell through transgression(sin), He must have had salvation if he could fall.
And the Bible says that he " Went to his own place " Which is Hell,Judas died lost.
Now thgose who teach the error of once saved always saved,will tell you that Judas was never saved to begin with,But that is not what the Word of God tells us.
But that won't matter to those in error,They will just continue to take Scripture out of context so that they can bolster their error even more.
Ezekiel 18:24 clearly tells us that, If a Righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, His righteousness shall not be mentioned,
He will die in his sin and be lost.
Now the Bible is clear on this but those in the error of once saved always saved will deny this truth to the end.
It is a dangerous position to hold,Do not be deceived,God is not mocked,whatsoever a man sows,that shall he also reap.
I pray this error is exposed before it is to late. One can be saved believing this error, But if one uses this error to condone deliberate sin in one's life,they will be sadly mistaken.
Art.
Posts: 50 | From: New York | Registered: Dec 2006
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Juggernaut
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posted
Timspong said:
[/QUOTE]We have free will to do any carnal thing we want, but we don't have the free will to seek God. We simply don't have that capacity, being dead in sin since the fall. The only thing our free will will achieve is to satisfy various desires and land us in hell. To our system of thinking, it is correct to say that God ensures his elect "choose" Christ. God ensures His elect choose Christ by using instruments such as you and me on this earth. He will bring his people into situations where they hear and come to believe the word.
I think that this must be the main disagreement then. You believe that I can not choose to follow God on my own. I believe that I can choose to follow God, but not recive salvation on my own. I can not do anything by my own will that would save me.
I think that my main frustration with the whole choosing thing is that it means that God loves some more than others. To choose somebody to go to hell and someone else to go to heaven, means that God is selective in His love. But this clearly goes against the most famous verse of them all John 3:16 For God so loved the world... Not; For God so loved those particular few that He has so chosen in the world. No, it is the whole world that God loves. That is why I believe that the initial choice is ours to make. We have to choose to believe that there is a God and that His Son died for our sins.
[/QUOTE]
I think Romans 9 from about verse 10 is a good place to read about the absolute soverignty of God acting what we percieve to be our "free will" choices. Paul makes a perfectly logical agrument. If you understand it how it was meant to be read then Paul cleaverly anticipates objections in v14 and v19. If you are not understanding it correctly those verses won't really make any sense. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Primoa1970 said:
Like I've said before......
The sovereignty of God and the freewill of man work side by side. We don't know how....but we believe it to be true.
Are we puppets? No
But is God in control of everything? Yes
Can you logically explain that? Of course not...no one can. This is where faith and trust come into play.
I couldn't agree more, I don't always understand it, but I believe and trust God.
Your brother in Christ,
Chris Howard
Posts: 4 | From: St. Helens Oregon | Registered: Feb 2007
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Primoa1970
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Member # 1016
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posted
Like I've said before......
The sovereignty of God and the freewill of man work side by side. We don't know how....but we believe it to be true.
Are we puppets? No
But is God in control of everything? Yes
Can you logically explain that? Of course not...no one can. This is where faith and trust come into play.
A good resource about all this is a little book called:
"Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God" by J.I. Packer.
We're not called to understand the mysteries of God....we're called to believe Him no matter what.
-Primo
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1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Posts: 639 | From: Orlando, FL | Registered: Feb 2003
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timspong
Advanced Member
Member # 5240
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Juggernaut:
Mr. Spong,
It seems to me that you all taking all my free will away. Also, it seems to me that logically, you do believe people have a choice. Otherwise why would you be arguing with people who have no choice. It's not their fault that they think that way, God is directing them. So why are you arguing against God. If God is going to save them no matter what, then there isn't much point in trying to convince them otherwise.
We have free will to do any carnal thing we want, but we don't have the free will to seek God. We simply don't have that capacity, being dead in sin since the fall. The only thing our free will will achieve is to satisfy various desires and land us in hell. To our system of thinking, it is correct to say that God ensures his elect "choose" Christ. God ensures His elect choose Christ by using instruments such as you and me on this earth. He will bring his people into situations where they hear and come to believe the word.
quote:
I'm sure someone else has already thought of this, but... If we don't have free will, then there is no point to being here on earth to believe and live in faith (our choice). If God is going to choose against our will He could have done that before time began.
We do have free will, but God is certainly able to manipulate it line up with his will. In fact that is the whole point of our Growth in Christ is for us to line our will up with Gods. However in the begining of our walk, he leads us by the hand much more.
quote:
This is nice for making me think about what I believe and for making me consider what the scriptures say. But, I will be glad when all this confusion is cleared up. ![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
Your brother in Christ,
Chris Howard [/QB]
[/QUOTE]
I think Romans 9 from about verse 10 is a good place to read about the absolute soverignty of God acting what we percieve to be our "free will" choices. Paul makes a perfectly logical agrument. If you understand it how it was meant to be read then Paul cleaverly anticipates objections in v14 and v19. If you are not understanding it correctly those verses won't really make any sense.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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Juggernaut
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posted
BecuseHelives:
quote:
Salvation is dependent upon "whoever believes"
Timspong:
Agreed, however God decided who will believe and he will make sure they do.
BecuseHelives:
quote:
and not God's determination of one's salvation or lack thereof.
God desires all men to be saved.
Timspong:
If God wants someone to be saved, you can be sure they will be.
Your understanding of the bible has been tainted by your presuppositions. Try reading it with no pre-conceived notions of what you think it aught to say. It says what it means and means what it says. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Mr. Spong,
It seems to me that you all taking all my free will away. Also, it seems to me that logically, you do believe people have a choice. Otherwise why would you be arguing with people who have no choice. It's not their fault that they think that way, God is directing them. So why are you arguing against God. If God is going to save them no matter what, then there isn't much point in trying to convince them otherwise.
I'm sure someone else has already thought of this, but... If we don't have free will, then there is no point to being here on earth to believe and live in faith (our choice). If God is going to choose against our will He could have done that before time began.
This is nice for making me think about what I believe and for making me consider what the scriptures say. But, I will be glad when all this confusion is cleared up.
Your brother in Christ,
Chris Howard
Posts: 4 | From: St. Helens Oregon | Registered: Feb 2007
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timspong
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
[QB] The following verse indicates that the Gentiles are the elect but not as yet have obtained salvation. Paul is hopeful that they may obtain salvation but the wording shows the possibility they may not. This verse contradicts the false theology of Unconditional Election which teaches that election is equal to salvation.
2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, [even] to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Paul is talking about the elect from all time including us today. IE he must suffer and remain faithful to truth as a key instrument in Gods plan of bringing the elect to their pre-ordained salvation. Election is not equal to salvation and that is not what is taught in reformed theology. The elect are not born with salvation, they must be drawn to Christ by God using instruments such as Pauls writings.
quote:
The Gentiles were forbidden to become children of God prior to Israel's rejection of God.
Can you be more specific? When exactly did Israel reject God? And Why can’t God do whatever he likes?
quote:
In Matthew 15:22-28 below, Jesus called the Canaan woman a "dog" and said He did not come for her. Yet, because of her faith He healed her daughter. This scripture is in direct contradiction with the theology of Total Depravity whereby one must be drawn by God, given faith by God and must be one of the elect. The Gentiles, of which the Canaanites were apart, were not named as the elect at this time. Jesus did not draw her to Him which is in direct contradiction with the erroneous theology of Unconditional Election. She came by her own free will against His initial rejection of her. This is also an example in direct contradiction with the erroneous theology of Limited Atonement. Her faith in Jesus certainly provided her salvation in addition to the healing of her daughter.
Do you really think that the woman was there just by chance? Of course she was part of Gods plan and drawn to Christ by him. Things just don’t get into the bible by chance, God preordained the whole episode. She was of course one of Gods elect and always has been.
quote:
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 "And as you go, preach, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
Another presupposition. Just because these apostles at this time were instructed to go to the lost sheep doesn’t imply anything about Gods plan towards the gentiles. Or are you saying at this point God still wasn’t planning to include Gentiles and it was some kind of after thought?
quote:
Matthew 15:22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed." 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us." 24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 26 But He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw [it] to the little dogs." 27 And she said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great [is] your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Again, another episode pre-ordained by God. Do you really think this woman is not among the elect? I think you will be able to ask her yourself one day.
quote:
The Gentiles were predestined by God from the foundation of the earth to become His elect by grace in what the Apostle Paul calls the mystery. The grace given to the Gentiles is salvation apart from the Mosaic Law and circumcision.
Some gentile were yes but of course not all. You are trying to squeeze a square peg in a round hole. It just doesn’t work.
quote:
The correct definition of the word grace as used by the Apostle Paul is salvation apart from the Mosaic Law and circumcision.
The commonly held definition that grace is "unmerited favor" is a erroneous and simplistic explanation not supported by Scripture.
I think you need to re-evaluate your definition of grace. Where does Paul say that grace isn’t grace but it means something else?
Nelsons bible dictionary definition:
Grace = Favor or kindness shown without regard to the worth or merit of the one who receives it and in spite of what that same person deserves.
quote:
Salvation apart from the law was not offered to Israel.
Well they are in trouble then as Christ is the only one that has managed to keep the law so far. Your square peg is really getting a hammering now. So you are saying that Paul and the rest of the Apostles are still under the law?
quote:
These verses do not mean that any one individual was predestined to be saved.
It says He chose us (Gentiles) in Him.
So you are saying that whenever the bible talks about the elect he is talking about all the gentiles? Also you are saying that none of Israel is included?
quote:
Salvation is dependent upon "whoever believes"
Agreed, however God decided who will believe and he will make sure they do.
quote:
and not God's determination of one's salvation or lack thereof.
God desires all men to be saved.
If God wants someone to be saved, you can be sure they will be.
Your understanding of the bible has been tainted by your presuppositions. Try reading it with no pre-conceived notions of what you think it aught to say. It says what it means and means what it says.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
The following verse indicates that the Gentiles are the elect but not as yet have obtained salvation. Paul is hopeful that they may obtain salvation but the wording shows the possibility they may not. This verse contradicts the false theology of Unconditional Election which teaches that election is equal to salvation.
2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, [even] to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
The Gentiles were forbidden to become children of God prior to Israel's rejection of God. In Matthew 15:22-28 below, Jesus called the Canaan woman a "dog" and said He did not come for her. Yet, because of her faith He healed her daughter. This scripture is in direct contradiction with the theology of Total Depravity whereby one must be drawn by God, given faith by God and must be one of the elect. The Gentiles, of which the Canaanites were apart, were not named as the elect at this time. Jesus did not draw her to Him which is in direct contradiction with the erroneous theology of Unconditional Election. She came by her own free will against His initial rejection of her. This is also an example in direct contradiction with the erroneous theology of Limited Atonement. Her faith in Jesus certainly provided her salvation in addition to the healing of her daughter.
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 "And as you go, preach, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
Matthew 15:22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed." 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us." 24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 26 But He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw [it] to the little dogs." 27 And she said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great [is] your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
The Gentiles were predestined by God from the foundation of the earth to become His elect by grace in what the Apostle Paul calls the mystery. The grace given to the Gentiles is salvation apart from the Mosaic Law and circumcision.
The correct definition of the word grace as used by the Apostle Paul is salvation apart from the Mosaic Law and circumcision.
The commonly held definition that grace is "unmerited favor" is a erroneous and simplistic explanation not supported by Scripture.
Salvation apart from the law was not offered to Israel.
These verses do not mean that any one individual was predestined to be saved.
It says He chose us (Gentiles) in Him.
Salvation is dependent upon "whoever believes" and not God's determination of one's salvation or lack thereof.
God desires all men to be saved.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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timspong
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quote:
Originally posted by artm:
I do not agree with T.U.L.I.P. Not much of it is Biblical.
I disagree as it is all perfectly biblical IMO and I have spent a great deal of time checking every aspect of it.
quote:
First, " Do People have the right of Choice.?
Yes they can choose anything they want but are incapable of choosing to seek God. Man has been spiritually dead since the fall.
quote:
Joshua 24:15 says," If it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord," Choose " you this day whom you will serve."
This verse is out of context in this situation. God was asking the whole of Israel to choose corporately. It was really a rhetorical question like the one in the Garden of Eden when God asks Adam “where are you” of course He knew.
quote:
If People don't have the right of choice,Why bother to spend Billions of dollars preaching the message of Salvation around the world, " Lets just sit back and let God choose who is saved and who is lost.
A typical supposition. We are obligated to be obedient to God who uses us to get his word to those he wants to draw to Christ. Without doubt the greatest evangelical preachers of all time have been “Calvinistic” (Spurgeon, Edwards, Carey et al) In fact corporately the traditionally Calvinistic Denominations, Anglican, Baptist, Episcopal, Presbyterians, etc etc. Have a huge evangelical tradition. Your “theory” based on a supposition doesn’t hold much weight historically or even rationally.
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Then there is what someone has called " Irresistible Grace" There is no such thing.
Quite scriptural though. Do you really think God does not have the power to draw anyone he chooses to Christ?
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The Apostle Paul said in Galations 2:21," I do not frustrate the Grace of God."
The word " Frustrate " means to " reject ".
It must be possible to reject Gods Grace,Or it wouldn't make since for Paul to speak of it in His sentence.
And Paul was speaking to believers when he spoke of rejecting the Grace of God.So much for " once saved always saved."
Totally out of context! Essentially Paul is saying that he needs the grace of God because righteous cannot be gained by obeying the law. He is saying that you can’t reject the grace of God and attain salvation otherwise Christ would have died for nothing. It is very obvious.
quote:
On the subject of " once saved always saved."
Read Ezekiel 3:20-21.
It speaks of the righteous man who has turned from righteousness. " they will be lost."
Righteousness is not the same as saved (elect). Here God is warning Israel (specifically) to help others keep the law or they will be held accountable for their fall. Again you took scripture out of context.
quote:
Then, The Bible does not teach that " Eventually all creation will be saved." If you are talking about mans salvation.?
Matthew 7:13 says, " Enter ye in at the straight gate,For wide is the gate,and broad is the way that leads to destruction,and many there be which go in thereat."
At last something we agree on.
quote:
And then,Someone said, " There is no Scripture that tells us that anyone is in Hell now."
Read Luke 16:22-23. That man is in Hell at this very moment.
I don’t entirely agree, but that is a whole other discussion.
quote:
Next,And maybe the most important point.
Man in his lost and depraved condition does not seek after God on his own.
But God in His Great and Wonderful Grace,Seeks after man. For God so loved the world,That He gave His only begotten Son,That whosoever believes in " HIM " should not perish but have everlasting life.
Thats Grace.
Man cannot come to Christ at his own volition,In his spiritual state he see's no need to be forgiven, He is not aware of his lostness.
John 6:44 declares, " No man can come to me,Except the Father which has sent me draw him"
Thats Grace.
Agreed, although I suspect I see it from a slightly different angle than you do and it seems to contradict what you were saying about choice. i.e. if man cannot come to Christ at his own volition, how on earth will he make a free will “choice” to come to Christ?
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I dont expect to change any minds,And maybe that reveals a lack of faith on my part, But I just wanted to be faithful to Gods Word.
God bless you all,And may we all meet in Heaven. Through Christ,And his wonderful Grace we will.
Art. [/QB]
We all do our own bit and God will use us at our point of maturity and obedience for His purpose. I am sure we will meet in heaven as salvation is by grace through faith in Christ. It is not by faith in a doctrinal system.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
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Primoa1970
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posted
Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory
Our salvation is very secure in Christ and cannot be revoked. Our salvation is guaranteed because of the finished work of Christ on the cross. Anything else would be the equivalent of a works-based salvation.....and all you need to do is skip ahead to Ephesians 2:8-9 to know that our salvation is not based on works. The Holy Spirit was given to us as believers at the very moment we believed....not by speaking in some jibberish that no one can understand.....it was at the very moment of belief when the spiritual blinders came off. We have been sealed until the day of redemption. This is a seal that cannot be broken.
If our salvation were left up to us to decide....then it would be null and void and far from perfection. It would take all of our effort to keep it in tact....and there is no way in creation that you and I could ever keep it in tact by our own doings. We sin and we fall short every day....this is what grace is all about.
And I thank God for it......
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1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
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artm
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posted
Hello to one and all.
I do not agree with T.U.L.I.P. Not much of it is Biblical.
I would like to respond to just a few of the points that have been raised on this post,To many to respond to all that has been said here.
First, " Do People have the right of Choice.?
Joshua 24:15 says," If it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord," Choose " you this day whom you will serve."
If People don't have the right of choice,Why bother to spend Billions of dollars preaching the message of Salvation around the world, " Lets just sit back and let God choose who is saved and who is lost.
Then there is what someone has called " Irresistible Grace" There is no such thing.
The Apostle Paul said in Galations 2:21," I do not frustrate the Grace of God."
The word " Frustrate " means to " reject ".
It must be possible to reject Gods Grace,Or it wouldn't make since for Paul to speak of it in His sentence.
And Paul was speaking to believers when he spoke of rejecting the Grace of God.So much for " once saved always saved."
On the subject of " once saved always saved."
Read Ezekiel 3:20-21.
It speaks of the righteous man who has turned from righteousness. " they will be lost."
Then, The Bible does not teach that " Eventually all creation will be saved." If you are talking about mans salvation.?
Matthew 7:13 says, " Enter ye in at the straight gate,For wide is the gate,and broad is the way that leads to destruction,and many there be which go in thereat."
And then,Someone said, " There is no Scripture that tells us that anyone is in Hell now."
Read Luke 16:22-23. That man is in Hell at this very moment.
Next,And maybe the most important point.
Man in his lost and depraved condition does not seek after God on his own.
But God in His Great and Wonderful Grace,Seeks after man. For God so loved the world,That He gave His only begotten Son,That whosoever believes in " HIM " should not perish but have everlasting life.
Thats Grace.
Man cannot come to Christ at his own volition,In his spiritual state he see's no need to be forgiven, He is not aware of his lostness.
John 6:44 declares, " No man can come to me,Except the Father which has sent me draw him"
Thats Grace.
I dont expect to change any minds,And maybe that reveals a lack of faith on my part, But I just wanted to be faithful to Gods Word.
God bless you all,And may we all meet in Heaven. Through Christ,And his wonderful Grace we will.
Art.
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timspong
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
quote:
Bandit
This would be an area where I would say both Calvinists and Arminians are wrong.
I agree....
Every human born at some point as they mature feels an emptiness inside they do not understand and spend their entire live seeking to fill that emptiness.
The reason for so many false gods , is reality of the True and Living God Yahweh.
Even agnostics and atheist acknowledge the existence of Yahweh in their denial of Him.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.
Why is Yahweh looking down from heaven upon men to see if any seek Him, if they have no ability to seek Him.
Okay, so you disagree with just about every historic biblical scholar and offer your own carnal feelings on the subject as a substitute. Where does the bible talk about “feeling an emptiness inside” and searching for the true God from our own fleshly desire? It doesn’t, it talks about man naturally seeking idolatry by their carnal yearning, which is hardly the same as humbly seeking a personal relationship the one true creator of heaven and earth. It requires a faculty that we simply don’t possess as we have been dead in spirit from the fall.
Also, your view that agnostics acknowledge Gods existence in order to deny Him doesn’t make any sense. Satan acknowledges and knows the real God. Agnostics are simply lost in their own ignorance.
Also to quote Psalm 14 as your scriptural evidence that man seeks God from his own carnal free will is quite astounding. Have you actually read the whole of Psalm 14?
You can search the whole bible and you won’t find one verse that talks of man using his own free will to seek God. It simply isn’t there. There are verses that you can take out of context to try and manipulate scripture in to saying this. Although I have seen much better efforts that your Psalm 14 attempt. But in reality it doesn’t work as “context is king” in correct biblical hermeneutics.
You underestimate the Holiness/Power/Knowledge of God and overestimate the condition of man.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
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becauseHElives
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posted
quote:
Bandit
This would be an area where I would say both Calvinists and Arminians are wrong.
I agree....
Every human born at some point as they mature feels an emptiness inside they do not understand and spend their entire live seeking to fill that emptiness.
The reason for so many false gods , is reality of the True and Living God Yahweh.
Even agnostics and atheist acknowledge the existence of Yahweh in their denial of Him.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.
Why is Yahweh looking down from heaven upon men to see if any seek Him, if they have no ability to seek Him.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Bandit
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by timspong:
Actually this is one thing that both Calvinists and Arminians both agree on. ie mans inability to seek God by his own free will. He can can make a lot of "flesh" choices with his will but never to seek God.
Hello timspong,
This would be an area where I would say both Calvinists and Arminians are wrong. Remember in my first post in this thread that I said I was not Arminian in my theology. (Being non-calvinist often gets one labled as being Arminian. People have that 'one or the other' expectation.)
Bandit
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timspong
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quote:
Originally posted by Bandit:
Wouldn't you also agree that we could never come to Christ on our own?
I am sorry, but I do not agree with this. I believe man was created to have a relationship with God. That is an inherent part of our nature. You have simply stated one of reformed theology’s basic philosophical tenets, and as a calvinist you believe that the bible teaches such a thing. The reformed view is that man is spiritually dead. My understanding is that when the bible speaks of ‘spiritual death’ due to sin, it is teaching that man is spiritually separated from God. This is not the same as saying man has no spirit at all, or that his spirit is actually dead. Man’s spirit, although separated from God, is still very much alive, though in a degenerate state (a state of separation). And as a still living being, man can both seek out and respond to God.
Actually this is one thing that both Calvinists and Arminians both agree on. ie mans inability to seek God by his own free will. He can can make a lot of "flesh" choices with his will but never to seek God.
Arminian view - Article 3 of the Remonstrance
Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free-will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."
Reformed view - T in Tulip
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
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Bandit
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Hello Primoa,
I am sorry it took me so long, but I have so many things on my plate right now. (Among them is my fight with cancer while still trying to hold down a full-time job and raise a family.) Anyway, I will try to answer your questions the best I can. And there were two questions I could make out.
Your first question was:
quote:
Originally posted by Primoa1970:
To my Armenian brother in Christ......
Wouldn't you also agree that we could never come to Christ on our own?
I am sorry, but I do not agree with this. I believe man was created to have a relationship with God. That is an inherent part of our nature. You have simply stated one of reformed theology’s basic philosophical tenets, and as a calvinist you believe that the bible teaches such a thing. The reformed view is that man is spiritually dead. My understanding is that when the bible speaks of ‘spiritual death’ due to sin, it is teaching that man is spiritually separated from God. This is not the same as saying man has no spirit at all, or that his spirit is actually dead. Man’s spirit, although separated from God, is still very much alive, though in a degenerate state (a state of separation). And as a still living being, man can both seek out and respond to God.
Your 2nd question was:
quote:
Originally posted by Primoa1970:
One last question: Is there a set number of people that are destined for heaven? Revelation 6:11 speaks of this....
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
Whether it's by martyrdom or by natural death, I believe this speaks of a set number of saints in the kingdom.
I went back to what few Greek references I have, including 2 Greek-English interlinears, and none of them have anything in the Greek which supports the “the number” phrase. In fact, most of the better translations should show those words in italics, which means they are not in the original Greek text. What the Greek really says in verse 6:11 is something like the following.
“And was given to them each one a white robe and it was told them that they will rest yet a little while until should be completed also of their fellow slaves and brothers the ones about to be killed as also they.”
The Greek text says nothing of a certain number. That notion has been added. But the text does mention that these must rest for a little while until the martyrdom of their fellow slaves and brothers is completed. It is from this notion of “completed” that many have assumed that a fixed number of martyrs is in view, but this need not be the case. There are other ways this martyrdom can be “completed”, and in fact, I believe the bible supports (though I won’t pursue it here) another understand: that being that there is a fixed time during which this martyrdom will occur. And once the days (the time) of this martyrdom are over, this martyrdom will be complete. So I am sorry, but there is no proof in Rev. 6:11 for the reformed premise that God has predestined a particular number of select individuals to be martyred.
Sincerely,
Bandit
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timspong
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Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation - agreed
Salvation is possible by grace alone - agreed
Works of human effort cannot cause or contribute to salvation - agreed
God's election is conditional on faith in Jesus - agreed (but God ensures the elect develop faith)
Jesus' atonement was potentially for all people – that believe
God allows his grace to be resisted by those unwilling to believe - 1/2 agreed. Atonement is available to all that believe, however God decides who is going to believe.
Salvation can be lost, as continued salvation is conditional upon continued faith - this is not scripturally correct
It seems like the only issues here we are not in agreement with is:
1. where faith/belief comes from; i.e. our effort or gods gift
2. Whether it is possible for Gods elect to lose their salvation.
3. Atonement is available to the whole world not just to who God calls.
There are hundreds of scriptures I could quote, but I think thes will suffice:
Ephesians 2.8 for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
Romans 8.30. And those he predestined, he also called, those he called, he also justified; those he justified he also glorified.
Therefore, everyone he called was saved. This implies that God must have ensured their faith and the elect cannot possibly lose their salvation.
Philippians 1.6: being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus – how else can this be interpreted, you cannot lose your salvation if you are truly elect.
Also, if humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation where does that ability come from? - From the spirit of truth (who the world cannot accept – John 14.17)
Without the spirit of truth man is incapable of believing the truth – do you agree?
1cor 2.14: The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that com from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
The spirit of truth is not given to everyone, only the elect.
Limited Atonement is often the last thing that becomes clear. But it becomes obvious once you are able to accept the other 4 points and process them to their spiritually discerned conclusion. After all God is not unjust and would not condemn someone whose sins have been paid for.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
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becauseHElives
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posted
timspong
I am neither Calvinist or Armenian,
I am a lover of truth.
Calvinist or Armenian were neither heard of before the 1600’s, after the pollution of the Church by the Great WH!ore the Roman Catholic Church.
The scripture stand alone, with no need of mans need to make apologies for what seen to some to be contradictions.
Man is saved by Grace and Grace alone, but when the scriptures say …
Roman 11.…..
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
I don’t try to explain it away, I except the fact Yahweh can do as He pleases.
Luther brought light to the world when the visible Church WH!ore of Rome was predominantly all that was seen of the Christian Faith.
Calvin joined in the reformation, but the reformation is not complete, it is still taking place.
All the points of TULIP are false teachings as I outlined in my above post..
Armenian’s hold to the following tenets:
Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation
Salvation is possible by grace alone
Works of human effort cannot cause or contribute to salvation
God's election is conditional on faith in Jesus
Jesus' atonement was potentially for all people
God allows his grace to be resisted by those unwilling to believe
Salvation can be lost, as continued salvation is conditional upon continued faith
Armenian teaching is closer to the Truth in my understanding of scripture line upon line precept upon precept.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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timspong
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Unfortunately I don't have too much time to discuss this in any depth; however, here is a great link to a discussion on this very subject which brings great clarity to all the objections to Reformed (Calvinist) Theology.
Two reformed guys are discussing an Arminian Sermon. You hear the sermon and then the reformed guys look up all the scriptures and discuss.
See the “Theology talk” section
http://www.salvationbygrace.org/default.aspx?ct=sub/listen
I think just about every point that "becauseHElives" raised is discussed in this talk. It is really very good, but I would try to avoid listening to it with any preconceived notions. Just let the scripture speak for itself in its correct context.
Also, remember that Protestantism was totally "Calvinistic" from it's inception during the reformation. The Anglican Church and Baptist movement (plus many others) both subscribed to this doctrine from inception.
The TULIP was actually formed during the Synod of Dort in 1618 in response to the 5 points of the Arminian Remonstrance. The leaders of the Protestant church debated the Arminian view for months and finally rejected it as being not in agreement with Gods word.
This wasn't some cult; it was the full force of the protestant church that rejected the Arminian view as being “non-scriptural” (that’s the nice way of saying it)
Here is a good unbiased history of the age old debate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Calvinist-Arminian_debate
It wasn’t really until the Wesley brothers began the Methodist movement did the Arminian theology start to infiltrate the foundational doctrines of the protestant church.
In my experience many who are anti-Calvinists, really haven't studied either the history or the doctrine in any depth whatsoever. Every argument I have heard takes either takes scripture out of context or injects assumption into scripture to achieve the desired result.
I have studied this issue in depth and I would love to understand a contrary view, however, I have yet to find one argument against reformed theology that stands up to scripture. The fact that Calvinism has become almost a dirty word is something that can only be the result of a prolonged systematic conspiracy orchestrated to undermine the foundation of the protestant church. If you take the foundational doctrines of grace away, the church will fall like the house built on the sand. This is really serious folks, so please don’t take it lightly.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
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Eden
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Hi, Primoa1970. I agree with T.U.L.I. But not with .P. You said:
P. Perseverance of the Saints: (Once saved always saved): Since God has decreed the salvation of the elect, it cannot be changed.
Eden here:
I’m not sure that God has decreed the salvation of the elect; rather, I was thinking that God knows who the elect will end up being by the end through His foreknowledge, looking down through time counting all who ended up ACCEPTING His salvation.
There IS something that HUMANS must do in this transaction of salvation with God, in my opinion, and that is that sinners must actively continue to believe in the salvation God right into the grave.
I do think that if someone talks and thinks like a bornagain Christian for 7 years and then goes to University and comes out believing instead in Darwin, such a person then is no longer counted by God as a bornagain Christian and is now counted by God as an unbeliever.
In other words, I think that the amount of bornagain Christians fluctuates at any given time, but God does know who in the end of their lives and in the end when Jesus comes again, who will have taken their belief, that Jesus died on their behalf, all the way to the grave.
God does know ahead of time who and how many persons that will be in the end, and as such it could be said that the TEST that God set into reality, namely the miracles Jesus did and Jesus Christ crucified for our sins and we ourselves crucified to the cross with Jesus, and Jesus resurrected from the grave, it could be said that this TEST PREDETERMINED who would be able to believe and thus be saved.
If God for instance had made the TEST whether humans liked NASCAR racing or not, I would not be saved today.
So the very TEST PREDETERMINED who would be able to believe it, I think. And it even predetermined who would be able to believe it to the end, and who wouldn’t:
Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.
Be blessed, Primoa1970, thanks for T.U.L.I.
Eden
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barrykind
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posted
Thankyou Brother Dale
Love Barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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ahar
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posted
Some good points there becauseHeLives (can't remember, is your name Dale?).
For me the most important is John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
The key word is 'whosoever'. I'm not a Christian because I have been forced - I'm a Christian because I have chosen.
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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becauseHElives
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Do you agree with T.U.L.I.P. ?
No
Yahweh is so much bigger than the 5 points of TULIP !
Yahweh can not be put in such a small box !
I believe in predestination of the elect, but there must be clarification when we say I am predestined.
Predestined for what?
Let scripture interpret scripture is the only way to get the Truth.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 6:12-14 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
The term "Calvinism" is loosely used by some people who do not hold Calvin's teaching
on predestination and do not understand exactly what Calvin taught.
Dr. Loraine Boettner in his book, "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" says,
"The Calvinistic system especially emphasizes five distinct doctrines. These are technically known as "The Five Points of Calvinism" and they are the main pillars upon which the superstructure rests."
Dr. Boettner further says,
"The five points may be more easily remembered if they are associated with the word T-U-L-I-P, T, Total Inability; U, Unconditional Election; L, Limited Atonement; I, Irresistible (efficacious) Grace; and P, Perseverance of the Saints."
These are the points of Calvinism.
I have heard preachers say, "I am a one-point Calvinist." I have heard others say, "I am a two or three-point Calvinist." I want us to look at all five points of Calvinism as taught by John Calvin, then see what the Bible has to say on each point.
I. Total Inability
By total inability Calvin meant that a lost sinner cannot come to Jesus Christ and trust Him as Saviour, unless he is foreordained to come to Christ. By total inability he meant that no man has the ability to come to Christ. And unless God overpowers him and gives him that ability, he will never come to Christ.
The Bible teaches total depravity, and I believe in total depravity. But that simply means that there is nothing good in man to earn or deserve salvation. The Bible says in Jeremiah 17.9, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked."
A preacher brought a wonderful sermon on the depravity of the human heart. And when he finished his message, someone came to him and said, "I want you to know I can't swallow that depraved heart that you preached about."
The preacher smiled and said, "You don't have to swallow it, It's already in you!"
While the Bible teaches the depravity of the human race, it nowhere teaches total inability. The Bible never hints that people are lost because they have no ability to come to Christ. The language of Jesus was,
"Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" (John 5:40).
Notice, it is not a matter of whether or not you can come to Christ; it is a matter of whether or not you will come to Christ.
Jesus looked over Jerusalem and wept and said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem ...how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matthew 23:37). Here again notice, He did not say, "How often would I have gathered you together, but you could not." No. He said, "Ye would not!" It was not a matter of whether they could; it was a matter of
whether they would.
Revelation 22:17, the last invitation in the Bible, says, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water
of life freely."
If it is true that no person has the ability to come to Christ, then why would Jesus say in John 5:40, "Ye will not come to me." why didn't He simply say, "You cannot come to me."?
The only thing that stands between the sinner and salvation is the sinner's will. God made every man a free moral agent. And God never burglarizes the human will.
D.L. Moody addressed a large group of skeptics. He said, "I want to talk about the word believe, the word receive, and the word take. "When Mr. Moody had finished his sermon, he asked, "Now who will come and take Christ as Saviour?"
One man stood and said, "I can't". Mr. Moody wept and said, "Don't say, 'I can't.' Say, 'I won't!'" And the man said, "Then, I won't!"
But another man said, "I will" Then another said, "I will!" And another said, "I will!" Until scores came to trust Christ as Saviour.
Some Calvinists use John 6:44 in an effort to prove total inability. Here the bible says, "No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him..." But the Bible makes it plain in John 12:32 that Christ will draw all men unto Himself. Here the Bible says, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
All men are drawn to Christ, but not all men will trust Christ as Saviour. Every man will make his own decision to trust Christ or to reject Him. The Bible makes it clear that all men have light. John 1:9 says, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." Romans 1:19,20 indicates that every sinner has been called through the creation about him. And Romans 2:11-16 indicates that sinners are called through their conscience, even when they have not heard the Word of God.
So in the final analysis, men go to Hell, not because of their inability to come to Christ, but because they will not come to Christ "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."
The teaching that men, women and children are totally unable to come to Christ and trust Him as Saviour is not a scriptural doctrine. The language itself is not scriptural.
II. Unconditional Election
By unconditional election Calvin meant that some are elected to Heaven, while others are elected to Hell, and that this election is unconditional. It is wholly on God's part and without condition. By unconditional election Calvin meant that God has already decided who will be saved and who will be lost, and the individual has absolutely nothing to do with it. He can only hope that God has elected him for Heaven and not for hell.
This teaching so obviously disagrees with the oft-repeated invitations in the Bible to sinners to come to Christ and be saved that some readers will think that I have overstated the doctrine. So I will quote John Calvin in his "Institutes," Book III, chapter 23,
"....Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one of the other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death."
So Calvinism teaches that it is God's own choice that some people are to be damned forever. He never intended to save them. He foreordained them to go to Hell. And when He offers salvation in the Bible, He does not offer it to those who were foreordained to be damned. It is only offered to those who were foreordained to be saved.
This teaching insists that we need not try to win men to Christ because men cannot be saved unless God has planned for them to be saved. And if God has planned for them to be eternally lost, they will not come to Christ.
There is the Bible doctrine of God's foreknowledge, predestination and election. Most knowledgeable Christians agree that God has His controlling hand on the affairs of men. They agree that according to the Bible, He selects individuals like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David as instruments to do certain things He has planned. Most Christians agree that God may choose a nation-particularly that He did choose Israel, through which He gave the law, the prophets, and eventually through whom the Saviour Himself would come - and that there is a Bible doctrine that God foreknows all things.
I have often said, "Did it ever occur to you that nothing ever occurred to God?". God in His foreknowledge knows who will trust Jesus Christ as Saviour, and He has predestined to see that they are justified and glorified. He will keep all those who trust Him and see that they are glorified. But the doctrine that God elected some men to Hell, that they were born to be damned by God's own choice, is a radical heresy not taught anywhere in the Bible.
I have in my hand a bookley entitled "TULIP" written by Vic Lockman,. In the bookley Mr. Lockman attempts to prove the five points of Calvinism. Under the point, Unconditional Election, he quotes Ephesians 1:4, but he only quotes the first part of the verse: "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." However, that is not the end of the verse. Mr. Lockman, like most Calvinists, stops in the middle of the verse. The entire verse reades: "According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." The verse says nothing about being chose for Heaven or Hell. It says we are chosen (in him..ie "Christians") that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.
Under the same point, Unconditional Election, Mr. Lockman quotes John 15:16, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Again, Mr. Lockman, like most Calvinists, stops in the middle of the verse. The entire verse reads: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."
The verse says nothing about being chosen for Heaven or Hell. It says we are chosen to go and bring forth fruit, which simply means that every Christian is chosen to be a soul winner. The fruit of a Christian is other Christians. Proverbs 11:30 says, "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise."
Nowhere does the Bible teach that God wills for some to go to Heaven and wills others to go to Hell. No. The bible teaches that God would have all men to be saved. Second Peter 3:9 says that He is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." First Timothy 2:4 says, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
Those who teach that God would only have some to be save, while He would have others to be lost are misrepresenting God and the Bible.
Does God really predestinate some people to be save and predestinate others to go to Hell, so that they have no free choice? Absolutely not! Nobody is predestined to be saved, except as he chooses of his own free will to come to Christ and trust Him for salvation. And no one is predestined to go to Hell, except as he chooses of his own free will to reject Christ and refuses to trust Him as Saviour. John 3:36 says, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
Nothing could be plainer. The man who goes to Heaven goes because he comes to Jesus Christ and trusts Him as Saviour. And the man who goes to Hell does so because he refuses to come to Jesus Christ and will not trust Him as Saviour.
III. Limited Atonement
By limited atonement, Calvin meant that Christ died only for the elect, for those He planned and ordained to go to Heaven: He did not die for those He planned and ordained to go to Hell. Again I say, such language is not in the Bible, and the doctrine wholly contradicts many, many plain Scriptures.
For instance, the Bible says in I John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." The teaching of Calvinism on Limited Atonement contradicts the express statement of Scripture. First Timothy 2:5,6 says, "The man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all..."
The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Saviour of the world. John 4:42 says, "And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world." Again I John 4:14, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world." The Scriptures make it plain that Jesus came to save the world. John 3:17 says, "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
No man will ever look at Jesus Christ and say, "You didn't want to be my Saviour." No! No! Jesus wants to be the Saviour of all men. As a matter of fact, I Timothy 4:10, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."
The Bible teaches that Christ bore the sins of all people. Isaiah 53:6 says, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." There are two "alls" in this verse. The first speaks of the universal fact of sin - "All we like sheep have gone astray." And the second "all" speaks of the universal atonement - "and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." The "all" in the first part of Isaiah 53:6 covers. If all went astray, then the iniquities of all were laid on Christ.
Not only did He bear the sins of us all, but the Bible plainly teaches that He died for the whole world.
Look at John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world." If that isn't plain enough, the Bible says His death was for every man; "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Hebrews 2:9)
Nothing could be plainer than the fact that Jesus Christ died for every man. First Timothy 2:5,6 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all..." Romans 8:32 states, "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"
Look at the statements - statement after statement: "that he by the grace of God should taste death for every men"; "Who gave himself a ransom for all"; "delivered him up for us all."
John 3:16 has often been called the "heart of the Bible." It has been called "the Bible in miniature." "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jesus died for the whole world. He suffered Hell for every man who has ever lived or ever will live. And no man will look out of Hell and say, "I wanted to be saved, but Jesus did not die for me."
Some argue that if Jesus died for the whole world, the whole world would be saved. No. The death of Jesus Christ on the cross was sufficient for all, but it is efficient only to those who believe. The death of Jesus Christ on the cross made it possible for every man everywhere to be saved. But only those who believe that He died to pay their debt and who trust Him completely for salvation will be saved.
Again I quote John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son has everlasting life.." Everybody is potentially saved, but everybody is not actually saved until he recognizes that he is a sinner, believes that Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay their sin debt, and trust Him completely for salvation.
The atonement is not limited, it is a universal as sin. Romans 5:20 says, "But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Isaiah 53:6 states, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
A famour English preacher spoke in an English town, then rushed to catch his train for London. A sinner who heard him preach felt that he must immediately settle the matter of salvation. So he followed the preacher to the train. Just as the train pulled into the station, he took hold of the preacher's lapel and said, "I want to be saved! Tell me how!" The minister said, "I must catch this last train to London. Do you have a Bible?"
"Yes, I have one at home" said the anxious inquirer.
"Then go home and fine Isaiah 53:6. Read it carefully, Go in at the first all, and come out at the last all, and you will be saved."
The preacher rushed away, and the anxious sinner was left alone. He went back to his home, and opening his Bible, he turned to Isaiah 53:6. What did the preacher mean, he wondered - "Go in at the first all and come out at the last all, and you will be saved"? He found the verse and read it carefully: "All we like sheep have gone astray."
Well, he thought to himself, I can certainly go in at the first all. I have gone astray. I am a poor, lost sinner. Then he read the last part of the verse, "And the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." He said to himself, "If I come out at the last all, I must believe that all my sins were laid on Christ, that He took my place and paid for my sins. And if I rely upon that, I will be saved. That's what the preacher meant."
He then trusted Christ and was saved. He believe that he was a sinner, and that all his sins has been laid on Christ.
IV. Irresistible Grace V. Perseverance of the Saints
The fourth point of Calvinism is irresistible grace. By irresistible grace, John Calvin meant that God simply forces people to be saved. God elected some to be saved, and he let Jesus Christ die for that elect group. And now by irresistible grace, He forces those He elected, and those Jesus Christ died for to be saved.
The truth of the matter is, there is no such thing as irresistible grace. Nowhere in the Bible does the word "irresistible" appear before the word "grace". That terminology is simply not in the Bible. It is the philosophy of John Calvin, not a Bible doctrine. The word "irresistible" doesn't even sound right in front of the word "grace."
Grace means "God's unmerited favour." Somebody said G-R-A-C-E God's riches at Christ's expense. Grace is an attitude, not a power. Calvin had talked about the irresistible drawing power of God, it would have made more sense. But instead, he represents grace as the irresistible act of God compelling a man to be saved who does not want to be saved, so that a man has no choice in the matter at all, except as God forcibly puts a choice in him mind. Calvinism teaches that man has no part in salvation, and cannot possibly cooperate with God in the matter. In no sense of the word and at no stage of the work does salvation depend upon the will or work of man or wait for the determination of his will.
Does the Bible say anything about irresistible grace? Absolutely not! The Scriptures show that men do resist and reject God. Proverbs 29:1 states, "He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." Notice the word "often" in this verse. If God only gave one opportunity to be saved, then man could not complain. But here the Bible says, "He, that being often reproved.." This means the man was reproved over and over again. Not only was he reproved many times, but he was reproved often. But the Bible says he "hardeneth his neck" and "shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." That certainly doesn't sound like irresistible grace. The Bible teaches that a man can be reproved over and over again, and that he can harden his neck against God, and as a result will be destroyed without remedy.
Again Proverbs 1:24-26 says, "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at naught all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."
Here the Bible plainly says, "I have called, and ye have refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at naught all my counsel, and would none of my reproof." That doesn't sound like irresistible grace. God calls, and men refuse. Is that irresistible? God stretches out his hand and no man regards it? Is that irresistible grace? No. The Bible makes it plain that some men do reject Christ, that they refuse His call. John 5:40 says, "Ye will not come to me, that ye may have life." That verse plainly teaches that men can and do resist God and refuse to come to him.
In Acts chapter 7, we find Stephen preaching. He says in verse 51, "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." To these Jewish leaders,
Stephen said, "Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost."
So here were people; some of whom had seen Jesus and heard Him preach; others who had heard Peter at Pentecost; others who had heard Stephen and other Spirit-filled men preaching with great power. And what had they done? They were stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears. That is, they were stubborn and rebellious against God. The Bible plainly says, "They resisted the Holy Ghost."
Notice the words of Stephen in verse 51, "Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Here the Bible teaches that not only were these Jewish leaders resisting the Holy Ghost, but that their fathers before them had also resisted the Holy Spirit. Stephen says that all the way from Abraham, through the history of the Jewish nation, down to the time of Christ, unconverted Jews had resisted the Holy Spirit.
There is absolutely no such thing as a "can't-help-it-religion." God doesn't just force men to be saved with His so-called irresistible grace.
God offers salvation to all men. Titus 1:11 says, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men." But man must make his own choice. He must either receive or reject Christ. John 1:12 says. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
When Jesus wept over Jerusalem, he said "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gatherd thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" Here again the Bible clearly indicates that God would have gathered them together as a hen gathers her chickens, but they would not. That certainly shows that they could reject and resist Christ.
"I would, but ye would not" does not fit the teaching of irresistible grace. So people do resist the Holy Ghost. They do refuse to come to Christ. They do harden their necks. They do refuse when God calls.
That means that those who are not saved could have been saved. Those who have rejected Christ could have accepted Him. God offers salvation to those who will have it, but does not enforce it upon anyone who doesn't want it.
V. Perseverance of the Saints
The Bible teaches, and I believe in, the eternal security of the born-again believer. The man who has trusted Jesus Christ has everlasting life and will never perish. But the eternal security of the believer does not depend on his perseverance.
I do not know a single Bible verse that says anything about the saints persevering, but there are several Bible verses that mention the fact that the saints have been preserved.
Perseverance is one thing.
Preservation is another. No.
The saints do not persevere; they are preserved.
The Bible states in Jude 1. "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.." First Thessalonians 5:23 says, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul, and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
The other morning I opened a jar of peach preserves. I don't know how long those peaches have been in that jar. But the jar had been sealed some time ago, and the peaches were preserved. When I took out the preserves and ate them with a good hot biscuit, they were as good as they were the day they were placed in the jar.
But wait a minute! The peaches has nothing to do with it. They were not fresh and good because they had persevered. They were good and fresh because they had been preserved.
The Bible makes it plain that the believer is kept. He does not keep himself. First Peter 1:4,5 states: "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
The Bible says in John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand."
Now that doesn't sound like perseverance of the sheep or the saints. Here the sheep are in the Fathers hand, and they are safe not because they persevere, but because they are in the Fathers hand.
To be sure, the Bible teaches the eternal security of the believer. But the believer's security has nothing to do with his persevering. We are secure because we are kept by God. We are held in the Father's hand. And according to Ephesians 4:30, we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
So I disagree with all five points of Calvinism as John Calvin taught it.
There is a belief that if one does not teach universal salvation, he must either be a Calvinist or an Arminian. In this book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Dr. Loraine Boettner says on page 47,
"There are really only three systems which claim to set forth the way of salvation through Christ (And he names them):
"(1) Universalism, that all will be saved. (2) Arminianism, which olds that Christ dies equally and indiscriminately for every individual..., saying grace is not necessarily permanent, but that those who are loved of God, ransomed by God, and born of the Holy Spirit may (let God wish and strive ever so much to the contrary) throw away all and perish eternally; and (3) Calvinism." "Only two are held by Christians."
That is Calvin's position and Arminius' position."
Calvinists would like to make people believe that if one does not teach universal salvation, he must either be a Calvinist or an Arminian. And since the Arminian position does such violence to the grace of God, many preferred to call themselves Calvinists. But a person doesn't have to take either position.
I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist. I believe in salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. I believe in the eternal security of the believer. I believe that Jesus Christ died for all men, and I believe what the Bible says, "That whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
But I disagree with all five points of Calvinism as John Calvin taught it.
In conclusion, let me say that Calvin and those who followed him claimed to believe and follow the Bible.
They claimed to find at least a germ of the Calvinist doctrine in the Scriptures. But a careful student will fine that again and again they go beyond Scripture, and that Calvinism is a philosophy developed by man and depending on the fallible logic and frail, human reasoning, with the perversion of some Scriptures, the misuses of others, and the total ignoring of many clear Scriptures. Calvin did teach many wonderful, true doctrines of the Scripture.
It is true that God foreknows everything that will happen in the world. It is true that God definitely ordained and determined some events ahead of time and selected some individuals for His purposes. It is certain that people are saved by graced, and are kept by the power of God, That far Calvinists may well go in keeping their doctrines by the Scriptures. But beyond that, Calvinism goes in the realm of human philosophy.
It is not a Bible doctrine, but a system of human philosophy, especially appealing to the scholarly intellect, the self-sufficient and proud mind. Brilliant, philosophical, scholarly preachers are apt to be misled on this matter more than the humble-hearted, Bible-believing Christian.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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desertdweller
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What's Armenian theology? Somehow related to Eastern Orthodox theology?
DD
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Primoa1970
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To my Armenian brother in Christ......
Wouldn't you also agree that we could never come to Christ on our own? We needed an outside source to prompt us to believe in the first place. The Holy Spirit is the one who had to lift the blinders from in front of our eyes first.....allowing us to believe. We are all sinners who were once blinded from the truth.
God is the one who must initiate the relationship. We are much too sinful to ever have said 'yes' to God on our own.
So someone may ask...."Then why bother evangelizing?" Because we don't know who the elect are and it's still our duty to go out there and point them to Christ. Does God already know who will be saved and who wont? Absolutely....that's called 'sovereignty'.
Does it sound a bit unfair that God may send some to heaven and some to hell? God is just....and we all deserved hell to begin with. And besides, it is our sin that separates us from the Father.
We can't explain all of the mysteries of God and I'm glad we can't. Some things need to be left up to mystery and will be revealed to us in heaven (at least...I think most of them will).
One last question: Is there a set number of people that are destined for heaven? Revelation 6:11 speaks of this....
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
Whether it's by martyrdom or by natural death, I believe this speaks of a set number of saints in the kingdom.
Let me close by saying that I love you....you are my brother in Christ. I can't wait to meet all of you in heaven. God is eternal....and so will our new, incorruptable bodies be someday.
Praise God....
-Primo
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1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
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WKUHilltopper
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I believe "T" is right, but why would Jesus need to be sacrificed if everything else was pre-destined?
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desertdweller
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Godbehere,
You wrote:
Other than evangelism, I can't think of any difference either position would make in our day
to day living...either way, I'm grateful to be a believer in Jesus whether I chose him or He chose me.
I think that's a very interesting question - what would the difference make in evangelism? How would it work? Not very persuasive to say - 'Well, either you're chosen or not. Doesn't matter what you do.' (yes, that's a rather terse version....but I think we generally stress the wrong thing in evangelism anyway.
Forget heaven and hell.
The difference is that by developing a relationship with Jesus we change, become more free - not to have license to sin, but to be really free as God is - to know from the heart the right thing to do and to be able to love more.
It seems we have it wrong. I asked a Christian acquaintence once if he became persuaded heaven and hell did not exist, would he still be Christian? He said, "No WAY! I'd be out partying, getting drunk, etc."
That was a really sad answer. We still have things upsidedown, thinking the ways of virtue are 'no fun' and the ways of the world are really where all the fun is be we can't do that stuff.
Actually, the world's values bring great unhappiness and dissatisfaction, right? Aren't we happiest when we experience for a moment a taste of the love God has for someone (refering to some writings of some who have experienced this and said it was overwhelming how much more precious and beloved any of us are to God than we typically experience.)
So, evangelism should be based upon the intrinsic worth of knowing God - not FOR some other good. Since there is no other good like that.
Here's a poem I ran across I liked....
You drew me from a drop of water
You have been my beginning
You shall be my end.
I care nothing for heaven or hell
All I want is to be with you.
I think it's by a Sufi...
DD
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Bandit
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quote:
Originally posted by Primoa1970:
Do you agree with T.U.L.I.P. ?
...
Personally, I believe this lines up with scripture 100%. I know my Armenian brothers and sisters might disagree but....scripture is very clear on these.
Hello Primoa,
I would be one of those "Armenian brothers" (though I'm not really Armenian in theology). If scripture is so clear, then why all the varied positions? I'm not really looking to debate this (though I would discuss with you as a friend why I believe what I believe if you asked me), but these notions have been batted around for years. It seems each person believes what is clear to them. From my point of view, I can understand why someone might believe TULIP, and how they might try to justify it from scripture, but I also see scripture where TULIP is a very poor fit, which is why I reject it. I believe there is a better fit to scripture than TULIP, which is why I believe what I believe.
quote:
Originally posted by Primoa1970:
After all....if we were able to just walk away from the salvation of God....then His sacrifice wasn't enough. It would take our effort + the finished work of the cross if that were the case.
And we know that when Jesus said 'it is finished'....folks....it was finished.
And persons like myself would say that faith is what is required on our part. But each of us probably understands faith differently. Again, if scripture is so clear, why the different perceptions? One thing is clear: each of us plays a part in our own understanding.
quote:
Originally posted by Primoa1970:
May God be eternally praised.....
-Primo
Now I totally agree with this part of TULIP.
Your "Armenian brother",
Bandit
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Godbehere
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DD,
I'm by no means a die-hard Calvinist, in fact I
probably haven't given Armenianism a fair hearing. And as I said, I think the UE part of TULIP is VERY hard to accept.
Fortunately, it isn't one of those "core" doctrinal issues (at least I don't think it is).
I have always wondered what the point of evangelism is if the elect are going to be regenerated/saved regardless of anything else; but I certainly wouldn't suggest to our pastor that we stop supporting our missionaries!
Other than evangelism, I can't think of any difference either position would make in our day
to day living...either way, I'm grateful to be a believer in Jesus whether I chose him or He chose me.
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Carl
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
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desertdweller
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Godbehere....
I know what you mean. There is evidence for both - I guess I choose to err (if it is error - who know?) on the side of God being more merciful than we expect. After all, sending Jesus was more merciful than anyone expected, and so I hope for everyone else the degree of grace I have received, knowing I deserve it least of all.
And I really can't see God creating a soul he knows from before he created him or her that they would spend eternity in torture, being punished for something others are just as guilty of - but God (due to nothing they do) picks them for enternal joy in His presence? I can't go along with a set of propositions that ends up making God some sort of sadist. I'd rather go along with a set that makes him more merciful.
I'm sure you all know the scriptures that support the hope....I won't bother quoting. Because there's the set that refer to the other side as well. The most interesting research I've found has to do with translations of 'unending.....'.
But nothing I say or any one says here will change anyone's mind I don't expect. And that's OK. I do think that different parts of scripture make sense to us not at all at one point in time, and then later may make perfect sense, and (LOL) we may still not know.
Better to focus on the relationship with Jesus! Maybe a better topic is prayer.....
DD
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Godbehere
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Here's the problem I have with unconditional election in a nutshell: it means that God allows many people to be born knowing that their eternal destiny is hell.
I know the argument, we all deserve hell. But we don't choose to be born, we just are, and unconditional election means that we are doomed from hell from the beginning of time, or at least from our conception.
Having said that, scripturally I would have to agree that the Bible does seem to teach unconditional election, and my having a problem with it doesn't matter a whit. And, as DD says, you can make a case both ways; I just think the UE case is stronger.
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Carl
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
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desertdweller
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Primo,
Well............, I think we are to hope and pray all are saved. I don't believe we can point to any specific soul we KNOW is in hell.
It's not certain what Revelations is about. You get together 2 biblical scholars and you'll have 15 opinions at least.
Punish....or damn forever with no hope of change?
You know, the early church understood that what is meant by Christ as Judge is in the sense of a doctor diagnosing disease....but always with the goal of healing.
When we are sick we sin, and sometimes the treatment we may have to have will certainly feel like punishment - like the way an alholic has to hit bottom before admitting there's a problem.
Actually I do believe in Hell. It is where people who believe God exists and belive God hates them and also that there is nothing they can do to get back into the favor of God.
So, I don't know. Just hope.
DD
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Primoa1970
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DD
I really hope that you're not hinting at the possibility of the whole world being saved someday.....
That's universalism.....almost to the effect of what Catholics believe. It is God's desire that all men should be saved......but we know from scripture that not all men will be saved. There would be no use for the book of Revelation if that were the case.....because then there would be no one to punish.
-Primo
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1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
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desertdweller
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Primo
I agree with the first point, but not the rest. You say it lines up 100% with scripture, but scripture analysis is not that easy. At any point there are also scriptures that say the opposite of what you may quote (and why scripture battles are rather pointless).
There are scriptures that refer to 'the elect' and some being chosen, and there are scripture that say eventually all creation is saved. There's even a passage out there that says Christ is the Saviour of ALL men, especially Christians.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
DD
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Primoa1970
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T. Total Depravity: People are completely sinful and depraved and can do no good on their own
U. Unconditional election: Since people cannot choose for themselves, before the beginning of time, without any goodness on their part, God has chosen for Himself a select number of people to be counted as righteous.
L. Limited Atonement: The effects of God's atonement on sinful humanity is limited only to those he has chosen
I. Irresistible Grace: The grace God extends to the chosen cannot be refused since it has been decreed by God.
P. Perserverence of the Saints: (Once saved always saved): Since God has decreed the salvation of the elect, it cannot be changed.
Personally, I believe this lines up with scripture 100%. I know my Armenian brothers and sisters might disagree but....scripture is very clear on these. We are sinful and in need of a Savior. We could never choose the light because all of us want the darkness...it is in our sin natures to do this. We need an outside source to enlighten us (the Holy Spirit). Salvation is definately open to all....but only God knows who the 'all' are....therefore there is limited atonement. I do believe that scripture is clear on irresistable grace and the perserverence of the saints (the saved).
After all....if we were able to just walk away from the salvation of God....then His sacrifice wasn't enough. It would take our effort + the finished work of the cross if that were the case.
And we know that when Jesus said 'it is finished'....folks....it was finished.
Romans 8:39 "Nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord"
May God be eternally praised.....
-Primo
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1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
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