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Topic: Calendar qestion from Abraham's time????
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EL3LN3TN
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posted
Yes, JAVA that approx. 1/2 ratio would seem to indicate that I was responding to an appropriate number of individual messages.
So, where do you get your "technical" ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) definition of "spaming"(sic)???
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JAVA
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Again, el3, there 38 posts now on this thread, 37 before mine. Of these 18 are yours. So, half of these responses are yours so you are tecnically spaming this server. PLEASE limit your posts a little.
Thank you ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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JAVA, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose."
Posts: 147 | From: Columbia South Carolina | Registered: Apr 2005
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EL3LN3TN
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
[QB] Hi, EL3LN3TN. You said:
Eden, I have to suggest you've got your spiritual shoes on the wrong feet, and your Father, Lord Satan in Hell is rejoicing at this moment...
Eden here:
I don’t deny your right to say whatever you want to say, EL3LN3TN, but MY Father is YHWH of Israel who made heaven and earth and MY God is His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Indeed, Lucifer IS rejoicing at this moment because he knows that he still has you.
The Bible says we will all be resurrected.
Be blessed, Eden
<tee-hee> just funnin' ya ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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EL3LN3TN
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
[QB] Hi, EL3LN3TN. You said:
Certainly!...why not the standard threescore and ten (70 yrs) as suggested in scripture?
Eden here:
Yes, indeed 70 years and 80 years eventually become the standard of an average life,
Oops!! Hold it right there! Statistics 101: - that's actually not the standard "average" lifespan, but the ideal maximum lifespan.
...just do a 2 or 3 week survey of the obituary section of your local paper sometime, and you'll likely find the "average" (mean) lifespan to be in the 54-64 year range! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
because by then, after the Exodus, for instance, the farther the Adamic line was away from the communing with the glory in the garden of Eden, the average age became 70, and maybe 80 by reason of strength:
Naw...wait a minute.... "strength"....this is what(?) exactly, in relation to human lifespans, or biology??
Sorry, not really buying it.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Psalm 90:10
The days of our years are 70 years; and if by reason of strength they be 80 years, yet is their strength labor and sorrow; for it is soon cut off and we fly away.
By the time PSALMS was written, the Adamic line was so sel-absorbed and doing its own thinking that by the time PSALMS was written, 70 years worth was the average lifespan with “Adam” alone is in charge, and NO HELP from YHWH or the Lord Jesus by way of the Holy Spirit.
Like Adam’s descendants said in Judah when they saw Jesus: This is the heir, let us kill him and take the place for ourselves:
Matthew 21:38
But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
By going their OWN way, Adam and Eve are going it alone with God, but the time will come when the mess that Adam and Eve made WITHOUT God will become evident, and were it not for the return of Jesus Christ next as Coqnuering King, that few would be left.
Jesus is coming: Kiss the Son, lest He be angry with you (Psalm 2:12)
Eden
Most all of the above is addressing cultural, symbolic and theological parables, not really providing "evidence" or account of variations in human lifespans.
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EL3LN3TN
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
[QB] Eden had said:
Torah culture was obsessed with genealogical progressions (“who begat whom”) for a reason, namely to establish the heritage of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
EL3LN3TN answered:
WOW! What an incredible claim!! The authors knew this beforehand and can "prove" it as well, correct?
Yes, they may have been yearning for a messiah figure (hevlai ha messiach) but they "knew" his identity to be Jesus-ben Joseph, or are you just applying this ex post facto??
Eden here:
It was already known around 1600 BC that the Messiah would come out of the tribe of Judah:
Genesis 49:10
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Next it was announced that the Messiah would come from the family of David within the tribe of Judah.
Next it was announced that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem-Ephratah, the birthplace of David:
Micah 5:2
But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
In New Testament times, when the wise men came to Jerusalem, Herod enquired from his scribes where the Messiah should be born, and they quoted Micah 5:2 to King Herod.
So yes, they KNEW the tribe and they knew the family of David and they knew the city Bethlehem; for that reason, it was IMPERATIVE that accurate genealogical records be kept, to show the Messiah’s descent from Adam.
And note, Jesus of Nazareth fulfills all three requirements: of the tribe of Judah, of the family of David, born in Bethlehem-Ephratah.
Born, I might add, in Bethlehem ONLY because a Gentile Roman Emperor Augustus made a decree that everyone had to return to their own tribe and to their city of birth within that tribe, to be counted in a Roman census.
And so, Joseph and pregnant Mary who were living in Nazareth of Galilee at the time, went to the city of Bethlehem in Judah, because they were descended from David who was from Bethlehem-Judah.
And while IN Bethlehem, this pregnant Miriam (Mary) gave birth to Jesus IN Bethlehem, NOT in Nazareth.
An amazing set of circumstances, especially if we are just dealing with a "Darwinist reality" in which presumably nothing happens until it happens and it cannot be known ahead of time what will happen.
Sorry, the tribe of Judah until Shiloh come, from the family of David and born in Bethlehem. Try telling THAT to Darwinist reality heros, will Darwin not say we'll be born into WHATEVER family we will be born in, NO ONE can predict the future because the future has not happened yet.
But YHWH foretold these 3 things above about the Messiah and they happened just like YHWH said.
Believe God and be saved. We have ALL sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Eden
I’ll answer the rest of your post in another post.
Love, Eden
Ok, really all this goes into a whole 'nuther area aside from biological lifespans!!...and I won't really argue or hairsplit on some of it, but I'm not really sure where your getting this "Darwinist Reality" stuff from (you just made it up?) or how that even applies.
...and I will disagree that establishing a messianic geneology was the sole purpose of maintaining records - it was just one of several, along with establishing a national identity, et al, and really none of what you're presenting indicates the specific identity "Jesus ben-Joseph" was known beforehand, this is an erroneous conclusion-jump (imho).
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Eden
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posted
Hi, EL3LN3TN. You said:
Certainly!...why not the standard threescore and ten (70 yrs) as suggested in scripture?
Eden here:
Yes, indeed 70 years and 80 years eventually become the standard of an average life, because by then, after the Exodus, for instance, the farther the Adamic line was away from the communing with the glory in the garden of Eden, the average age became 70, and maybe 80 by reason of strength:
Psalm 90:10
The days of our years are 70 years; and if by reason of strength they be 80 years, yet is their strength labor and sorrow; for it is soon cut off and we fly away.
By the time PSALMS was written, the Adamic line was so sel-absorbed and doing its own thinking that by the time PSALMS was written, 70 years worth was the average lifespan with “Adam” alone is in charge, and NO HELP from YHWH or the Lord Jesus by way of the Holy Spirit.
Like Adam’s descendants said in Judah when they saw Jesus: This is the heir, let us kill him and take the place for ourselves:
Matthew 21:38
But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
By going their OWN way, Adam and Eve are going it alone with God, but the time will come when the mess that Adam and Eve made WITHOUT God will become evident, and were it not for the return of Jesus Christ next as Coqnuering King, that few would be left.
Jesus is coming: Kiss the Son, lest He be angry with you (Psalm 2:12)
Eden
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Eden
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posted
Hi, EL3LN3TN. You said:
Eden, I have to suggest you've got your spiritual shoes on the wrong feet, and your Father, Lord Satan in Hell is rejoicing at this moment...
Eden here:
I don’t deny your right to say whatever you want to say, EL3LN3TN, but MY Father is YHWH of Israel who made heaven and earth and MY God is His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Indeed, Lucifer IS rejoicing at this moment because he knows that he still has you.
The Bible says we will all be resurrected.
Be blessed, Eden
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Eden
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posted
Eden had said:
Torah culture was obsessed with genealogical progressions (“who begat whom”) for a reason, namely to establish the heritage of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
EL3LN3TN answered:
WOW! What an incredible claim!! The authors knew this beforehand and can "prove" it as well, correct?
Yes, they may have been yearning for a messiah figure (hevlai ha messiach) but they "knew" his identity to be Jesus-ben Joseph, or are you just applying this ex post facto??
Eden here:
It was already known around 1600 BC that the Messiah would come out of the tribe of Judah:
Genesis 49:10
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Next it was announced that the Messiah would come from the family of David within the tribe of Judah.
Next it was announced that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem-Ephratah, the birthplace of David:
Micah 5:2
But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of [b]Judah[b], yet out of you shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
In New Testament times, when the wise men came to Jerusalem, Herod enquired from his scribes where the Messiah should be born, and they quoted Micah 5:2 to King Herod.
So yes, they KNEW the tribe and they knew the family of David and they knew the city Bethlehem; for that reason, it was IMPERATIVE that accurate genealogical records be kept, to show the Messiah’s descent from Adam.
And note, Jesus of Nazareth fulfills all three requirements: of the tribe of Judah, of the family of David, born in Bethlehem-Ephratah.
Born, I might add, in Bethlehem ONLY because a Gentile Roman Emperor Augustus made a decree that everyone had to return to their own tribe and to their city of birth within that tribe, to be counted in a Roman census.
And so, Joseph and pregnant Mary who were living in Nazareth of Galilee at the time, went to the city of Bethlehem in Judah, because they were descended from David who was from Bethlehem-Judah.
And while IN Bethlehem, this pregnant Miriam (Mary) gave birth to Jesus IN Bethlehem, NOT in Nazareth.
An amazing set of circumstances, especially if we are just dealing with a "Darwinist reality" in which presumably nothing happens until it happens and it cannot be known ahead of time what will happen.
Sorry, the tribe of Judah until Shiloh come, from the family of David and born in Bethlehem. Try telling THAT to Darwinist reality heros, will Darwin not say we'll be born into WHATEVER family we will be born in, NO ONE can predict the future because the future has not happened yet.
But YHWH foretold these 3 things above about the Messiah and they happened just like YHWH said.
Believe God and be saved. We have ALL sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Eden
I’ll answer the rest of your post in another post.
Love, Eden
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EL3LN3TN
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Godbehere:
EL3LN3TN
I stand corrected, informed and admonished.
Thanks for your insight.
Sure! No problem....by all means feel free to Google or yahoo search all you want & maybe post any results, or lack of ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ....
...by this time I should probably be searching out some internet sources myself, just for backup.
fyi - book source info - also check "Isaac Asimov Explains the Bible" which I've heard contains the same explanation, altho it's not <my> actual source.
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EL3LN3TN
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
"APPEARANCES ARE DECEPTIVE"
Until God says other wise, I take Him at His Word that people lived to a certain age.
betty
Certainly!...why not the standard threescore and ten (70 yrs) as suggested in scripture?
Keep in mind.... "people" = approx. equal portions male/female.
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Godbehere
Advanced Member
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posted
EL3LN3TN
I stand corrected, informed and admonished.
Thanks for your insight.
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Carl
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Posts: 50 | From: FL | Registered: Dec 2004
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
"APPEARANCES ARE DECEPTIVE"
Until God says other wise, I take Him at His Word that people lived to a certain age.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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EL3LN3TN
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posted
I did not claim anyone to be "lying".
YOU used the term first.
It's a matter of understanding translation, historical texts, and basic biology.
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
I believe the Bible. I believe it when God said Abraham lived to be a certain age. I do not believe that God is lying.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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EL3LN3TN
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
The Family of Adam
(1 Chr. 1:1-4; Luke 3:36-38)
5This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. 3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. 4 After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. 5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.
6 Seth lived one hundred and five years, and begot Enosh. 7 After he begot Enosh, Seth lived eight hundred and seven years, and had sons and daughters. 8 So all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years; and he died.
9 Enosh lived ninety years, and begot *Cainan. 10 After he begot Cainan, Enosh lived eight hundred and fifteen years, and had sons and daughters. 11 So all the days of Enosh were nine hundred and five years; and he died.
12 Cainan lived seventy years, and begot Mahalalel. 13 After he begot Mahalalel, Cainan lived eight hundred and forty years, and had sons and daughters. 14 So all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years; and he died.
15 Mahalalel lived sixty-five years, and begot Jared. 16 After he begot Jared, Mahalalel lived eight hundred and thirty years, and had sons and daughters. 17 So all the days of Mahalalel were eight hundred and ninety-five years; and he died.
18 Jared lived one hundred and sixty-two years, and begot Enoch. 19 After he begot Enoch, Jared lived eight hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 20 So all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty-two years; and he died.
21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. 22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
25 Methuselah lived one hundred and eighty-seven years, and begot Lamech. 26 After he begot Lamech, Methuselah lived seven hundred and eighty-two years, and had sons and daughters. 27 So all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred and sixty-nine years; and he died.
28 Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and had a son. 29 And he called his name Noah, saying, "This one will comfort us concerning our work and the toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord has cursed." 30 After he begot Noah, Lamech lived five hundred and ninety-five years, and had sons and daughters. 31 So all the days of Lamech were seven hundred and seventy-seven years; and he died.
32 And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
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I see ages of people and not generations.
APPEARANCES ARE DECEPTIVE
"Generations" are made up of "people", correct??
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EL3LN3TN
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, EL3LN3TN. You said:
Wait a minute, tho...we are not referring to "people" (male/female) but males only in what was a predominantly patriarchal culture, that in the context of the Torah-era books, was obsessed with genealogical progressions ("who begat whom") as I'm sure you yourself have seen.
Eden here:
Torah culture was obsessed with genealogical progressions (“who begat whom”) for a reason, namely to establish the heritage of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
WOW! What an incredible claim!! The authors knew this beforehand and can "prove" it as well, correct?
Yes, they may have been yearning for a messiah figure (hevlai ha messiach) but they "knew" his identity to be Jesus-ben Joseph, or are you just applying this ex post facto??
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
EL3LN3TN also said:
btw - there IS one instance of a female ("Sarah") attaining a supposed age of 127 years, but I'd suggest copyist error.
Eden here:
I’m sure you would suggest copytist error.
<LOL> that's a joke, right?? Your credibility is skyrocketing.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
But, not so. From the expulsion of Adam and Eve, as the glory of God wore off Adam and Eve, and as man now “thought for himself” and woman now “thought for herself”, gradually the wisdom of God changed to the wisdom of Adamic man, and the result was dying sooner.
For this reason, starting from the garden of Eden, by the time Sarah died at age 127, the glory that Adam and Eve knew in the garden had worn off to the point where Sarah died at age 127. This is NOT A TYPOGRAPHICAL ERROR. Her husband Abraham died at age 175; also not a typographical error.
Sorry, but your own credibility in making this claim is zero, at this point.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
The trouble with you, EL2LN3TN, is that you do not yet believe that YHWH of Israel and His Son Jesus is the Creator of the Universe. May God YHWH open your eyes to see that YHWH IS the Creator of the heavens and the earth.
God bless, Eden
Be blessed and believe,
Eden
Eden, I have to suggest you've got your spiritual shoes on the wrong feet, and your Father, Lord Satan in Hell is rejoicing at this moment...
![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
The Family of Adam
(1 Chr. 1:1-4; Luke 3:36-38)
5This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. 3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. 4 After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. 5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.
6 Seth lived one hundred and five years, and begot Enosh. 7 After he begot Enosh, Seth lived eight hundred and seven years, and had sons and daughters. 8 So all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years; and he died.
9 Enosh lived ninety years, and begot *Cainan. 10 After he begot Cainan, Enosh lived eight hundred and fifteen years, and had sons and daughters. 11 So all the days of Enosh were nine hundred and five years; and he died.
12 Cainan lived seventy years, and begot Mahalalel. 13 After he begot Mahalalel, Cainan lived eight hundred and forty years, and had sons and daughters. 14 So all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years; and he died.
15 Mahalalel lived sixty-five years, and begot Jared. 16 After he begot Jared, Mahalalel lived eight hundred and thirty years, and had sons and daughters. 17 So all the days of Mahalalel were eight hundred and ninety-five years; and he died.
18 Jared lived one hundred and sixty-two years, and begot Enoch. 19 After he begot Enoch, Jared lived eight hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 20 So all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty-two years; and he died.
21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. 22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
25 Methuselah lived one hundred and eighty-seven years, and begot Lamech. 26 After he begot Lamech, Methuselah lived seven hundred and eighty-two years, and had sons and daughters. 27 So all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred and sixty-nine years; and he died.
28 Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and had a son. 29 And he called his name Noah, saying, "This one will comfort us concerning our work and the toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord has cursed." 30 After he begot Noah, Lamech lived five hundred and ninety-five years, and had sons and daughters. 31 So all the days of Lamech were seven hundred and seventy-seven years; and he died.
32 And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
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I see ages of people and not generations.
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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EL3LN3TN
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I believe the Bible. If the Bible says man lived longer in those days, then I believe it.
Very good....but the Bible nowhere indicates that "man lived longer in those days"..sorry.
It records geneologies.
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EL3LN3TN
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Godbehere:
Having gone back through the thread, I see your opinion that people didn't live to be hundreds of years old,
Ok. It is not "my" personal opinion.
read again.
quote:
Originally posted by Godbehere:
and I tend to agree; there must be an explanation for what we read in our Bible.
I can also live with the idea that God just decided it would be that way; He certainly has the power to do so in spite of biological and other limitations you mention (Eden makes very good points here).
I also read your claim that these ages refer to patriarchal lineages, however I see no evidence posted by yourself or anyone else for this particular conclusion. I would like to hear any if you have it.
Irenically,
Irenically???? Huh?? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
You've fallen into the exact same trap I warned you about...
Remember, tho - Internet links are not "evidence" - just consider some of the points brought up previously.
OK?? Do your own research on this, for now OK??
YOU'VE BEEN INFORMED.
Don't be a jerk.
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Eden
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posted
Hi, EL3LN3TN. You said:
Wait a minute, tho...we are not referring to "people" (male/female) but males only in what was a predominantly patriarchal culture, that in the context of the Torah-era books, was obsessed with genealogical progressions ("who begat whom") as I'm sure you yourself have seen.
Eden here:
Torah culture was obsessed with genealogical progressions (“who begat whom”) for a reason, namely to establish the heritage of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
EL3LN3TN also said:
btw - there IS one instance of a female ("Sarah") attaining a supposed age of 127 years, but I'd suggest copyist error.
Eden here:
I’m sure you would suggest copytist error. But, not so. From the expulsion of Adam and Eve, as the glory of God wore off Adam and Eve, and as man now “thought for himself” and woman now “thought for herself”, gradually the wisdom of God changed to the wisdom of Adamic man, and the result was dying sooner.
For this reason, starting from the garden of Eden, by the time Sarah died at age 127, the glory that Adam and Eve knew in the garden had worn off to the point where Sarah died at age 127. This is NOT A TYPOGRAPHICAL ERROR. Her husband Abraham died at age 175; also not a typographical error.
The trouble with you, EL2LN3TN, is that you do not yet believe that YHWH of Israel and His Son Jesus is the Creator of the Universe. May God YHWH open your eyes to see that YHWH IS the Creator of the heavens and the earth.
God bless, Eden
Be blessed and believe,
Eden
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Godbehere
Advanced Member
Member # 4187
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by EL3LN3TN:
quote:
Originally posted by Godbehere:
I don't necessarily believe patriarchs lived to be hundreds of years old, but I am looking for reasonable explanations of what we read in the Bible...
Well, you've just received it, right here in this thread!!
Having gone back through the thread, I see your opinion that people didn't live to be hundreds of years old, and I tend to agree; there must be an explanation for what we read in our Bible.
I can also live with the idea that God just decided it would be that way; He certainly has the power to do so in spite of biological and other limitations you mention (Eden makes very good points here).
I also read your claim that these ages refer to patriarchal lineages, however I see no evidence posted by yourself or anyone else for this particular conclusion. I would like to hear any if you have it.
Irenically,
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Carl
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Posts: 50 | From: FL | Registered: Dec 2004
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
I believe the Bible. If the Bible says man lived longer in those days, then I believe it.
The Family of Adam
(1 Chr. 1:1-4; Luke 3:36-38)
5This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. 3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. 4 After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. 5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.
6 Seth lived one hundred and five years, and begot Enosh. 7 After he begot Enosh, Seth lived eight hundred and seven years, and had sons and daughters. 8 So all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years; and he died.
9 Enosh lived ninety years, and begot *Cainan. 10 After he begot Cainan, Enosh lived eight hundred and fifteen years, and had sons and daughters. 11 So all the days of Enosh were nine hundred and five years; and he died.
12 Cainan lived seventy years, and begot Mahalalel. 13 After he begot Mahalalel, Cainan lived eight hundred and forty years, and had sons and daughters. 14 So all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years; and he died.
15 Mahalalel lived sixty-five years, and begot Jared. 16 After he begot Jared, Mahalalel lived eight hundred and thirty years, and had sons and daughters. 17 So all the days of Mahalalel were eight hundred and ninety-five years; and he died.
18 Jared lived one hundred and sixty-two years, and begot Enoch. 19 After he begot Enoch, Jared lived eight hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 20 So all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty-two years; and he died.
21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. 22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
25 Methuselah lived one hundred and eighty-seven years, and begot Lamech. 26 After he begot Lamech, Methuselah lived seven hundred and eighty-two years, and had sons and daughters. 27 So all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred and sixty-nine years; and he died.
28 Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and had a son. 29 And he called his name Noah, saying, "This one will comfort us concerning our work and the toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord has cursed." 30 After he begot Noah, Lamech lived five hundred and ninety-five years, and had sons and daughters. 31 So all the days of Lamech were seven hundred and seventy-seven years; and he died.
32 And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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EL3LN3TN
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
something to think about
http://www.scripturessay.com/q81.html
TEXASGRANDMA:
Yes, been there-done that. Lame and unsupportable.
"Mike Scott", middle-of nowhere Minister explains that it "may, possibly, maybe have been due to (19th century!!) vapor canopy, which has been totally debunked (requires atmospheric temperatures that would boil water)...and further reiterates debunked creationist diatribe including the incredible claim of... "There is a woman living in France today that is 126!"
...news to me. Pastor Mike offers no further support.
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EL3LN3TN
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quote:
Originally posted by JAVA:
el3 let us reply please before posting 3 replies in sucsession.
Who can explain the works of God? Do any of understand his mind? Than we must take at face value that God can make anything happen including a 900+ year old man. ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif)
"el3 let us reply please before posting 3 replies in sucsession."
That's kinda dumb. I don't quite get your point.
"God can make anything can happen" is essentially claiming your God to be CHAOS.
...and a "900 year old man" has never been verified.
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EL3LN3TN
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quote:
Originally posted by Godbehere:
I don't necessarily believe patriarchs lived to be hundreds of years old, but I am looking for reasonable explanations of what we read in the Bible...
Well, you've just received it, right here in this thread!!
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JAVA
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el3 let us reply please before posting 3 replies in sucsession.
Who can explain the works of God? Do any of understand his mind? Than we must take at face value that God can make anything happen including a 900+ year old man.
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JAVA, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose."
Posts: 147 | From: Columbia South Carolina | Registered: Apr 2005
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Godbehere
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Quoting Eden:
"Remember, tho - Internet links are not "evidence" - just consider some of the points brought up previously. "
True, they are not evidence, just information to be taken FWIW. As is a lot of university teachings, opinions, bulletin board material, etc.
I don't necessarily believe patriarchs lived to be hundreds of years old, but I am looking for reasonable explanations of what we read in the Bible...
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Carl
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
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EL3LN3TN
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quote:
Originally posted by Godbehere:
EL3LN3TN, you bring out an interesting point...do you have a link to more info on patriarchal lineages being used for ages? This is one of those questions I've always meant to research but never got around to it...
![[Frown]](frown.gif) No I do not!! Sorry. My source for this is pre-internet (Hebrew) history studies at Ohio State university.
Working 8-10 hours a day, 6 days a week thru most of last year really did'nt afford much time for internet-search, either.
Remember, tho - Internet links are not "evidence" - just consider some of the points brought up previously.
btw - if you're interested...one of the hoops that gets jumped-thru in trying to claim humans (apparently NOT just Hebrew males) REALLY DID live for hundreds of years back in the good old days is TELOMERES but (IMHO) this amounts to just more pseudo-science gymnastics in trying to explain an unsupportable theory.
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EL3LN3TN
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, EL3LN3TN. You said:
What I will tell you tho, keep in mind, is that the incredible OT age figures of 120+ years all the way up to 960+ or so years are NOT ages of individual persons but of patriarchal lineages (you will notice these persons to be all males)...they are genealogical records of continuous lines of male offspring, being ascribed the identity of the original patriarch.
Eden here:
So Not! It is something you would say because you are not yet a believer in YHWH and Yeshua-Jesus, but when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, it took a long time for the glow and knowledge of YHWH to wear off.
Gradually, Adam and Eve’s descendants lost more and more power and by Abraham’s time they lived to 175 and by Joseph’s time in Egypt they lived until 110 by which time they were thinking and acting totally on their without any further input from YHWH since they were no longer in the garden of YHWH.
Nice try....but in discussing this we are referring to a tangible, measurable biological property of "lifespan" which has been extensively studied, and documented, and is controlled by real-world factors such as environment, genetics, DNA, microbials, and numerous others.
You attribute a huge, monumental change in biological lifespan (in HEBREW MALES ONLY, remember!) to a magickal "loss of power" ...which really is'nt too convincing.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
EL3LN3TN continues:
Totally stupid (IMHO), but this seems to stir up an absolute hornet's nest on most Xtian-type forums sheesh...LOL..go figure.
Biological lifespans just DO NOT suddenly undergo 150%-900+(!) percent changes in just a few millenia - it just don't happen, and "MALES ONLY" to boot. Nonsense.
Eden here:
If you believed the miracles which Jesus did, which of course is “Totally stupid (IMHO)”,
I made no such claim, or <you yourself> feel the miracles of Jesus were "totally stupid"??? Off topic, actually.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
then you would also believe that Israel at the Exodus miraculously crossed a sea, and that Israel miraculously crossed the Jordan to get into the land of Canaan opposite Jericho, and took the land of the Canaanites in war with God helping them, and the miracles that Moses and Aaron did in Misr Egypt,
I say again, EL3LN3TN, if you believe THESE miracles, then you would also believe that God made a garden of Eden and that Adam and Eve were placed in there where they were clothed with the glory of God, and then you could also believe that it took a number of generations for that glory to wear off until they wear “mere Adamic men”, and thought only by ourselves now, having taken over for now the earth from God, until God takes it back when Jesus comes back the second time.
With love, Eden
Sorry, but that last one's a silly off-topic time waster.
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EL3LN3TN
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I believe the people indeed lived longer in those days. You have to understand the culture of that time. At that time, a man of 30 would still obey what his father asked of him.
betty
Wait a minute, tho...we are not referring to "people" (male/female) but males only in what was a predominantly patriarchal culture, that in the context of the Torah-era books, was obsessed with genealogical progressions ("who begat whom") as I'm sure you yourself have seen.
btw - there IS one instance of a female ("Sarah") attaining a supposed age of 127 years, but I'd suggest copyist error.
...and the idea of a "30 year old man" obeying a request of his father is really not all that phenomenal even nowadays, and really does'nt address the lifespan issue that I can see.
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Gen 25:7 ¶ And these [are] the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
This makes it clear this was talking about Abraham as one person and not several generations.
No, I disagree, this translated English text-from-ancient Hebrew does not make that specific point clear.
Problem lies with the words "Abraham's life which he lived" translation renders this inaccurate to the original text.
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Eden
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Hi, EL3LN3TN. You said:
What I will tell you tho, keep in mind, is that the incredible OT age figures of 120+ years all the way up to 960+ or so years are NOT ages of individual persons but of patriarchal lineages (you will notice these persons to be all males)...they are genealogical records of continuous lines of male offspring, being ascribed the identity of the original patriarch.
Eden here:
So Not! It is something you would say because you are not yet a believer in YHWH and Yeshua-Jesus, but when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, it took a long time for the glow and knowledge of YHWH to wear off.
Gradually, Adam and Eve’s descendants lost more and more power and by Abraham’s time they lived to 175 and by Joseph’s time in Egypt they lived until 110 by which time they were thinking and acting totally on their without any further input from YHWH since they were no longer in the garden of YHWH.
EL3LN3TN continues:
Totally stupid (IMHO), but this seems to stir up an absolute hornet's nest on most Xtian-type forums sheesh...LOL..go figure.
Biological lifespans just DO NOT suddenly undergo 150%-900+(!) percent changes in just a few millenia - it just don't happen, and "MALES ONLY" to boot. Nonsense.
Eden here:
If you believed the miracles which Jesus did, which of course is “Totally stupid (IMHO)”, then you would also believe that Israel at the Exodus miraculously crossed a sea, and that Israel miraculously crossed the Jordan to get into the land of Canaan opposite Jericho, and took the land of the Canaanites in war with God helping them, and the miracles that Moses and Aaron did in Misr Egypt,
I say again, EL3LN3TN, if you believe THESE miracles, then you would also believe that God made a garden of Eden and that Adam and Eve were placed in there where they were clothed with the glory of God, and then you could also believe that it took a number of generations for that glory to wear off until they wear “mere Adamic men”, and thought only by ourselves now, having taken over for now the earth from God, until God takes it back when Jesus comes back the second time.
With love, Eden
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Eden
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Hi, Chaffin. You said:
The subject of Abraham and Isaac came up. What was the calendar system back then. Does anybody know?
Eden here:
I think that it was the fist new moon system, similar to our monthly system. The word “month” is indeed derived from “moon”.
Only, it takes the earth slightly longer than 12 new moons to go around the sun, so even the ancients already added some days to their moon system to make a full year.
Chaffin continues:
The reason I ask is I just can't fathom how a 130-year-old man (believed age at the time) man put a 30-year-old man (believed age at the time) on an altar. Not saying that it is impossible but was Isaac really that gullible?
Eden here: No, Isaac was NOT gullible. Isaac had faith like his father Abraham who no doubt had told Isaac from childhood that how he was born by a miracle AFTER his mother Sarah was already past menopause.
So Isaac, knowing he was a miracle child, was also a child of faith like his father Abraham and Isaac got willingly on the altar, and allowed his father to bind him, lest he jump off the altar from the flames. They BOTH counted Him able who had given them Isaac in the first place:
Hebrews 11
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall your seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Chaffin continues:
Or did they just trust God would bring him back from the dead?
Eden here:
You got it.
Chaffin said:
The point I was trying to make is I don't see how a 30 year old man could be talked into getting on the altar and being bound with his father holding a knife in his hand. Now if Isaac was younger boy then it would make more sense to me.
Eden here:
Abraham was 100 years old (Gen. 21:5) and Sarah was 90 years old when Isaac was born and Ishmael by Abraham-Hagar was 14 years old.
Genesis 17:17
Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an 100 years old? and shall Sarah, that is 90 years old, bear?
Isaac was weaned at age 4 (Gen.21:8) , which made Abraham 104 and Ishmael 108 in Genesis 21:8. Ishmael was cast out of Abraham’s camp at age 18, and he grew and became an archer, and Hagar got him a wife out of Egypt (Gen.21:20-21).
Ishmael grew and then Ishmael got a wife, and he was 18 when he left camp, so let’s say that 3 more years passed, which makes Abraham 107 and Isaac 7 and Ishmael 21.
And then Genesis 21:34 says that Abraham sojourned alongside the Abimelech Philistines for many days. But this happened simultaneously to Ishmael growing in the wilderness of Paran and getting a wife.
But let’s say that Abraham sojourned for 5 years among the Abimelech Philistines, so we add 2 years, so Abraham was now 109, Isaac was 9, and Ishmael was 23.
And then next it says in Genesis 22:
Genesis 22
1 And it came to pass after these things, that God tempted Abraham, and said to him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and get yourself into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell you of.
3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his *** , and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
Eden here:
Now, we know that at the end of Genesis 21 Isaac was about 9 years old when we last left him above after Abraham was finished sojourning for 5 years among the Philistines, which made Abraham 109, and Sarah 99 years old.
In Genesis 22, Abraham takes Isaac to mount Moriah to offer Isaac up.
Stay with me now: And in Genesis 23:1, Sarah dies at age 127. When Sarah was 127, Abraham was 137 and Isaac was 37.
So inbetween Sarah being 99 years old at the end of Genesis 21:34, and Sarah being 127 years old when she died in Genesis 23:1, this Abraham-Isaac transaction occurred.
From the scriptures, there is no way to tell how older Isaac is than 9 or how much younger Isaac is than 37 in Genesis 23:1.
But I tend to think that Isaac was closer to the 9 side than the 37 side.
Isaac is called a lad. In Strong’s Concordance, it is number 5288, and this 5288 is used mostly for young persons.
For instance, Saul’s Jonathan had a lad (5288) who picked up his arrows for him.
But on the other hand, Benjamin, who was 38 years old, was called a lad (5288) because “he was the baby”, as we say in modern time.
So Isaac can also have been called “he was the baby” or (5288) since Ishmael was the firstborn of Abraham.
Ishmael is also called a lad (5288) when Ishmael was at least 18 years old, and in the following years the lad (5288) grew and Ishmael became an archer in the wilderness of Paran. So Ishmael was called a lad (5288) in his early 20s.
In either case, plenty of years for Isaac to be in full agreement with his dad about everything.
Be blessed, Chaffin,
Eden
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Godbehere
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posted
"The reason I ask is I just can't fathom how a 130 year old man (believed age at the time)man put a 30 year old man (believed age at the time) on an altar."
I was wondering about a 600 year old man building an ark...
EL3LN3TN, you bring out an interesting point...do you have a link to more info on patriarchal lineages being used for ages? This is one of those questions I've always meant to research but never got around to it...
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Carl
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
Gen 25:7 ¶ And these [are] the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
This makes it clear this was talking about Abraham as one person and not several generations.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
I believe the people indeed lived longer in those days. You have to understand the culture of that time. At that time, a man of 30 would still obey what his father asked of him.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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desertdweller
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Regarding the use of 'age' - there's some pretty interesting documentation (I'm sure easy to find on Google - I did not keep references I don't think) that our understanding of the use of that term is not so good in translations. So that would validate your claim about the 'age' meaning lineage. There's several issues with other passages where age (meaning a fixed period of time) is translated as 'eternity', which obviously has a different sense as well.
DD
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EL3LN3TN
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...btw...proof to me there's just GOTTA be something to this - last time I was in a similar forum discussion on OT ages on a Creation-ism board, no less, explaining the patriarchal genealogy view - I had 'em so backed up against the wall they just had to IP-block me in mid-thread & then delete posts!
Yep, there's gotta be something to it. ![[wiggle7]](graemlins/wiggle7.gif)
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EL3LN3TN
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You might do some Google-ing or outside research on this...I believe it's really just not known what the <exact> differences between modern era (Julian) calendar periods, and calendars from all the way back from 1600-2000 BCE Abrahamic periods.
What I will tell you tho, keep in mind, is that the incredible OT age figures of 120+ years all the way up to 960+ or so years are NOT ages of individual persons but of patriarchal lineages (you will notice these persons to be all males)...they are genealogical records of continuous lines of male offspring, being ascribed the identity of the original patriarch.
Totally stupid (IMHO), but this seems to stir up an absolute hornet's nest on most Xtian-type forums sheesh...LOL..go figure.
Biological lifespans just DO NOT suddenly undergo 150%-900+(!) percent changes in just a few millenia - it just don't happen, and "MALES ONLY" to boot. Nonsense.
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Chaffin
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posted
We were talking in class and the subject of Abraham and Isaac came up. What was the calendar system back then. Does anybody know? The reason I ask is I just can't fathom how a 130 year old man (believed age at the time)man put a 30 year old man (believed age at the time) on an altar. Not saying that it is impossible but was Isaac really that gullible? Or did they just trust god would bring him back from the dead? The point I was trying to make is I don't see how a 30 year old man could be talked into getting on the altar and being bound with his father holding a knife in his hand. Now if Isaac was younger boy then it would make more since to me. But back to the question...What was the calendar system back in those days? Thanks..
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