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Topic: What does it mean that God granted repentance unto them?
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desertdweller
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But why, if God created every person out of love, wouldn't he save them all? Actually, there is this....:1 Tim 4:9-10
9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
It says especially, not only....check any translation - the meaning is the same.
Most clergy don't know that's in there.
DD
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Eden
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desertdweller said:
If we say that some have a better opportunity to chose than others, but God ignores it, then I think we are forced to say God sets up a test that would not meet our MINIMUM standards of fair.
Eden here:
Well, maybe. God declared that all who sinned would die:
Genesis 2
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.
Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.
So the whole Adamic-Evian earth is legitimately under sentence of death. God is therefore ALREADY FAIR even if He destroyed everybody and everything that He had made, it all being under sentence of death.
But, God wanted sons and daughters like Jesus Christ, especially after heaven was depopulated by two-third of the angels who followed Lucifer, God wants to fill that void with sons and daughters similar in capacities like Jesus had, but God has a whole earth under fair, LEGAL sentence of death.
So God and Jesus alone set about to implement a threshold plan whereby these sons and daughters could be, nay, WOULD be, procured, namely, the crucifixion, suffering, death on the cross to WHOSOEVER WILL.
Since God still wanted to some sons and daughters like Jesus, God chose to OVERRIDE His LEGAL right to destroy everyone, by an act of grace or mercy in which Jesus would die on the cross to pay the penalty for EVERYONE’S sins and those in earthly reality who were able, for whatever reason, to accept God’s threshold test of believing that Jesus did miracles, died and rose again, those sinners will become sons and daughters of God just like Jesus.
So FAIR is destroying everyone and (maybe) start over. But GRACE is overriding that FAIRNESS with another plan, to salvage some sons and daughters by whosoever can believe.
Mark 9:23
Jesus said to him, If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.
Lastly, desertdweller said:
The point I wanted to make with the workers in the field is that God indeed is not fair according to our own standards, but he says he is more GENEROUS than we would expect.
Eden here:
MUCH more generous is grace than fair.
With love, Eden
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desertdweller
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Eden,
(see above post – this is second one is a row)
I also wanted to say that I DO think God cares a great deal about what sort of people we are. Repentance for our sins is really very important. Somehow, when we say, “Yes, I did this, and that, and that….etc.” it aligns us with God in a way that opens us up to have God work in us to heal all those aspects of us that have caused us to hurt ourselves and others. God is respectful of our individuality – He does not force Himself on us – I think.
What motivates me have this position is that even humans are compassionate to people who have done great evil because they are nuts. Or let’s say someone is suicidal – we don’t just let him jump off the bridge saying, ‘Oh well, it’s his choice….” When we find someone in the grips of a madness that causes damage to himself or others, we do restrain him and try to treat him.
I suppose in some sense we are violating his ‘free will’ but if someone is suicidal, are the choices really free? I think we are all sin-sick. We all really do need the healing touch of Christ all through our lives…..no one is instantaneously turned into a perfect person – full of love, compassion, hope, - no gossiping, envy, pride…..
Sometimes natural consequences are the best therapy. I am not suggesting that God would advocate letting drug pushers roam free selling drugs; (well, they are free to do that anyway, but just may not have a ‘right’ to do so). The same with children; letting them run amok is no good for them; but on the other hand, we don’t write off children to endless torture. We don’t give up – or shouldn’t (at least in prayer). God is who more compassionate than we would not give up on us either.
I also struggle with this issue of ‘what is God’s part’ and ‘what is our part’ problem. I think your questions are valid and honest. I can’t claim to know the answer – I’m just presenting where I am.
Blessings again,
DD
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desertdweller
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Hi, Eden,
Thanks for your reply.
Yes, I guess I do have some positions that I may explain very poorly. My apologies. Such as maintaining we don’t know the criteria Jesus will use for anyone to come to the Father.
You said:
“Since we are all equally declared sinners, I think God does not care about who ends up having the ability to choose and who does not. Indeed, God presumably knew ahead of time how many and who WOULD be able to choose Jesus as their Savior.”
DD here:
Honestly, don’t you think that ends up making God out to be a callous tyrant? It seems holistically incompatible with sending Jesus to die for our sins. Sounds to me like God sets up a test, makes it an irrational one and one that even we would regard as unjust, and then those who fail are doomed forever. My own experience of Jesus (which of course, just like anyone’s, may or may not be correct) is that God chastens always with the underlying motive of correcting our thinking or path. It hurts God, like a good parent, to see us go down paths that hurt us or others. But for God to just casually or irrationally toss aside into everlasting torture the very ones he created out of love – when they themselves did not pass this test of whether they believe or not Jesus was the Son of God or not…….when we don’t even choose what we believe….seems rather odd. I think we project human weaknesses too often upon God.
You also said:
“Well, the fields in this parable is work in the vineyard of the Lord, so that is work the saved sinners did for the Lord. But this does not explain, if we are all equal sinners, why some sinners can accept the Lord Jesus’s death as theirs, while other sinners cannot.”
DD here:
Valid point. I was just trying to point out that God is more generous than we often like to think. The excessive generosity of God relates to position that Jesus may be lots more generous than we think.
You also said,
“ Now, who of the equal sinners can accept the Lord’s offer, and who cannot?
DD here:
I really don’t think we can know. If we say that some have a better opportunity to chose than others, but God ignores it, then I think we are forced to say God sets up a test that would not meet our MINIMUM standards of fair. The point I wanted to make with the workers in the field is that God indeed is not fair according to our own standards, but he says he is more GENEROUS than we would expect.
You said (regarding the passage from Philippians)
You again surprised me with that answer. I think that Jesus came the FIRST time as the suffering servant to atone for our sins, but the second time Jesus will come as the conquering king whom no one can withstand.
The BELIEVERS will bow the knee to Jesus, knowing Who He is and Loving Him, but the UNBELIEVERS like the Darwinists will NOT BOW THE KNEE UNLESS COERCED!
DD here:
Ummmmmmm I would think that displaying the fruits of the Spirit of God is something that Jesus would never stop doing. Why would he change into a conquering king (meaning mowing people down)? There are different ways to think of a king – the tyrant the subjects fear, and the king who takes on the responsibility of the well-being of all his subjects. I think God the Father gave all he had to the Son, so Jesus takes up the cross of bringing all God gives him to salvation.
Eden said:
You deserve to be in hell, but something about you sinner made it possible to save yourself. Did you do anything, or did God do it all? I do think we sinners do something…whosoever believes, him will God save and transfer into the world-to-come, the new sky and the new earth in which righteousness dwells. At this point, God does not care anymore about any man’s excuses, whosoever can believe in the horrible death of HIS OWN SON He will sovereignly transfer, period?
DD here:
So then what about being saved by grace alone, so that no man boasts? If you say we do something….and the next guy hasn’t, isn’t that someone one person can say THEY did and the other guy didn’t.” If we say it was by grace we did it, then is that trying to have it both ways? Sort of like saying, “Well, I chose, but it was only by the grace of God.” So if the other guy didn’t choose the same way, was it his fault?
Sorry, didn’t understand the bit about Darwinists. If you get to heaven and see a Darwinist there, will you want to leave?
As far as I’m concerned, Heaven is not heaven until all are there. There was a medieval position that the joy of Christians in heaven would be heightened by seeing the wicked being tortured. I think that sentiment is completely non-Christian. If we are all saved by grace (a given, I think) then we must say that we are as deserving as the next guy to be cut off from God – according to the law. God may have different plans. Our task is to regard each as our brother and pray for him.
May you continue to know the love of Jesus.
DD
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Eden
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Hi, desertdwelller (DD). You said:
I do not think it means WE KNOW how Jesus will make that determination. I personally doubt that it will be based upon whether someone happens to believe Jesus was the Son of God, died for our sins, raised from the dead, etc.
Eden here:
This answer surprised me for I like/love what you generally say. I DO think that, because we are all equal sinners, that God simply set up a threshold, and not just ANY threshold but His Own Son suffering and dying on the cross for any man or woman who wants to use the death of Jesus as his or her substitute so that he or she no longer has to die for their own sins.
Since we are all equally declared sinners, I think God does not care about who ends up having the ability to choose and who does not. Indeed, God presumably knew ahead of time how many and who WOULD be able to choose Jesus as their Savior.
So I DO think that God set up His Son’s suffering, death, and resurrection up as THE threshold that ALL sinners must cross, and whether they can cross depends to some extent upon where they live and what kind of family they come from. But with God’s test, God does not concern Himself with that part. He sets up the test, and whosoever….
Desertdweller continues:
But if we all belong to God, it’s God’s choice what he does with us all. I think he’s more generous than we like to think. And the people who worked longer in the fields should be grateful that they had the opportunity to spend more time following the will of God.
Eden here:
Well, the fields in this parable is work in the vineyard of the Lord, so that is work the saved sinners did for the Lord. But this does not explain, if we are all equal sinners, why some sinners can accept the Lord Jesus’s death as theirs, while other sinners cannot.
Unless, and I think this is the key, and that is that God simply set up this test of Jesus into reality, and whosoever will, or rather, whosoever CAN may accept Jesus’s death on their behalf.
God did gather all of the first Adam up by crucifying the old man (Adamic man) onto the cross while Jesus was on the cross. So God made provision FOR EVERY SINNER by gathering up ALL OF ADAM and crucifying him, the “old” man as compared to the “new” man, on the cross while Jesus was on the cross. Now, who of the equal sinners can accept the Lord’s offer, and who cannot?
desertdweller continues:
There’s also this from Phillippians 2:
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
If (and I do not doubt it) indeed every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, then it will have to be done willingly and our of humble affection, not coerced. Because if it is coerced then it is not to the Glory of God the Father, but a mere demonstration of being a bully.
Eden here:
You again surprised me with that answer. I think that Jesus came the FIRST time as the suffering servant to atone for our sins, but the second time Jesus will come as the conquering king whom no one can withstand.
The BELIEVERS will bow the knee to Jesus, knowing Who He is and Loving Him, but the UNBELIEVERS like the Darwinists will NOT BOW THE KNEE UNLESS COERCED! Joseph, who is a type of Jesus, had men run ahead of him, shouting Bow the knee!, and if they did not bow the knee IMMEDIATELY, they were moved down by the sword.
desertdweller’s final words:
So, bottom line is I think all I can say is I know I deserve myself to be in Hell, don’t know about anyone else – that is up to Jesus – and pray that all come to know is love and compassion sooner rather than later.
Eden here:
You deserve to be in hell, but something about you sinner made it possible to save yourself. Did you do anything, or did God do it all? I do think we sinners do something…whosoever believes, him will God save and transfer into the world-to-come, the new sky and the new earth in which righteousness dwells. At this point, God does not care anymore about any man’s excuses, whosoever can believe in the horrible death of HIS OWN SON He will sovereignly transfer, period?
Love, Eden
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desertdweller
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Eden, thanks for your thoughtful reply.
I agree that not all have the same opportunity to establish a relationship with Jesus. Someone living in a wealthy NY City apartment or in the luxury of an English countryside estate may be among those least likely to pay attention, as well as the 8th Century example you cited.
And I agree that God chooses us, not the other way around.
Then, if we are all also created by God - out of His Love, whom would He not chose?
Are we to say that God is to some degree a sadist and arbitrary if some go to heaven and some hell?
I don't think people can choose what they happen to find credible or not - because of all the same things you have mentioned - education, family, culture, etc.
Nevertheless, in some cases, God seems to randomly cut through all that and the person experiences the reality of Christ personally. It is clearly God that does this, not us.
And there is another person in the same situation that never experiences this touch of God.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
I think that means that no one but Jesus gets to say who comes to the Father and who does not.
I do not think it means WE KNOW how Jesus will make that determination. I personally doubt that it will be based upon whether someone happens to believe Jesus was the Son of God, died for our sins, raised from the dead, etc.
Maybe Jesus is more compassionate than we are. So the person who lived in an environment where they didn't have the opportunity to develop the relationship with him (mainly I think because the rest of us Christians are lax in praying for our brethren - and who is not our brother?), Jesus may not turn away. It’s up to Him. His ways are not our ways, and the parable of the workers all getting paid the same regardless of the amount worked in the field shows us that God does not follow OUR sense of fair play. Jesus makes clear why we get upset at that: 'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?' (Matt 20:16)
Yes, I think we are envious. The thought that God gives the same to the guy who works an hour vs. all day makes us say ‘HEY, not FAIR.’
But if we all belong to God, it’s God’s choice what he does with us all. I think he’s more generous than we like to think. And the people who worked longer in the fields should be grateful that they had the opportunity to spend more time following the will of God.
There’s also this from Phillippians 2:
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
If (and I do not doubt it) indeed every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, then it will have to be done willingly and our of humble affection, not coerced. Because if it is coerced then it is not to the Glory of God the Father, but a mere demonstration of being a bully.
So, bottom line is I think all I can say is I know I deserve myself to be in Hell, don’t know about anyone else – that is up to Jesus – and pray that all come to know is love and compassion sooner rather than later.
Thank you for your nice note at the end of your post, but I think many of my positions would not be very acceptible - who knows? Maybe I'm wrong.
Blessings to you!
DD
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Eden
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Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Hi, desertdweller, the faith may have been Jesus’s faith. In other words, Jesus is the only one who has ever lived a life of total faith in YHWH, so that it is the faith of Jesus which saves us, and not OUR faith:
Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference.
Jesus lived the life of faith FOR US, ON OUR BEHALF, so it is not our faith that saved us, but Jesus’s faith.
Going back to that Ephesians 2:8 verse:
Ephesians 2
10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
11 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
That can simply mean, I was saved by Jesus’s faith so not of ourselves, not of MY faith, but it is the gift of God, it is Jesus's faith that saves us.
But what do sinners then do?
Do ALL sinners have the EQUAL capacity to RECEIVE and ACCEPT this gift of God which is through the faith of Jesus?
How about a sinner in Islamic Arabia after the 7th century A.D., does that sinner have EQUAL opportunity and capacity to RECEIVE and ACCEPT the gift of God through this faith of Jesus, compared to, say, the sinners in Christian Europe and the sinners in Christian America?
I do not think that a sinner in Islamic Arabia after the 7th century A.D. has the same opportunity to save himself as a sinner in the USA or in Europe. I think not.
And also, how does this fit then, that the Lord also said, “You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen YOU”:
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
And why then are we “called” and "chosen" if we do the believing:
Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.
What do we humans contribute to this thing of salvation. It is NOT a doing anything apart from a BELIEVING part:
Romans 23
21 And now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed to by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them who believe: for there is no difference.
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
God also already nailed our old man to the cross in Romans 6:6, and now God also calls and chooses:
Acts 22:14
And he said, The God of our fathers has chosen you, that you should know His will, and see that Just One, and should hear the voice of His mouth.
Is it true that since we are all equally sinners, that God has set up this test of Jesus rising from the dead as THE THRESHOLD by which God will let all-equal sinners cross over into the next world-to-come of God.
That is, whosoever, through family history or whatever, geographical location or one of these and many of these, for whatever reason and ability that ANY SINNER can believe this Word about Jesus and about YHWH, that equal sinner, for whatever reason, he will pass through into the world-to-come by believing the test that God has set up whether Jesus rose from the dead, or not.
Equal sinners, yes, so that's the threshold test that God set up to enter in. That’s just it is.
Be blessed, desertdweller, I like most of your doctrines, BTW.
Eden
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desertdweller
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Eden,
This passage from Ephesians 2 is interesting......verse 8 is really interesting, how it says saved by faith, and that not of yourselves.....
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
if not of our own faith, then whose? Christ's faith in His Father? another Christians? And then when did it start. Of course a corresponding question is then if we are saved by no act of our own, that what sense does it make to judge and condemn one to hell? Makes it all sound like we are just bystanders in all this.
I certainly don't know either. My latest thoughts on this is my salvation is in God's hands. Maybe everyone's is. Maybe everyone eventually is reconciled to God (there are some passages in the NT that say that will happen as well.) It's not completely clear.
On a practical basis I think that praying for the redemption of all is a good thing; asking for the gift of faith is a good thing; trust in the kindness and mercy of God is a must.
Difficult Problem. From the readings I have done, holy people of earlier generations often came to a place of extreme humility and held that their salvation was all God....I think they experienced it so that it affected them to experience even more gratitude, but NOT make them feel like robots or fatalists.
DD
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Claudia
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Because you make a decision whether or not to believe and whether or not to repent.
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Eden
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And since we're all equally sinners, why can some sinners believe while other sinners cannot believe?
Is it, the family we came from?
is it, the country we come from?
If we're all equal sinners, how come some of us can believe while others cannot?
Eden
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Eden
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Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then has God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
I have a question. Since we are all EQUALLY SINNERS, we can therefore only be SAVED BY GRACE. And grace means that God does something for us, and law means that we do something for God.
Now if it is all by grace, does that make God the ONLY DOER in this salvation matter since it is only by grace, and what role do WE sinners play in this salvation thing then?
God can be the ONLY DOER in this salvation thing, because He is the only One who KNOWS how to do the salvation thing.
Does it still remain 100% grace if WE also have to do something, if indeed we have to do something.
Does God make us believe and we sinners therefore do nothing, or is BELIEVING or ACCEPTING THE GIFT OF GOD the ONLY task that WE sinners have to perform?
Is it still 100% grace if it is dependent also on US doing something, UNLESS God MAKES me believe.
And in a way, God MAKES me believe by putting His Word in the world and by putting His already SAVED Christians out there, and apparently also by "digging around sinners" with the Holy Spirit, so in that way, God is also MAKING some of us believe.
So in that way it could still be 100% grace? So do we do something IN ADDITION to God's grace, or is it ALL God's grace?
I don't know yet. Eden
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desertdweller
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Primo,
there is a lot of significance in the use of 'empowered' in what you wrote.
Have you noticed that when someone tells us something, we don't decide whether to believe them or not, it just happens that we do or don't? I have come regard openness to change of belief as an effect of the Holy Spirit - or sometimes cult brainwashing techniques.
I think we are free and not free at all at the same time. We make choices but they are often really stupid and we just don't see it till later. Could we have chosen differently....depends upon what could means. Was a gun to our heads? That may change what we SAY but not what we actually believe.
I know some non-Christians watch Christians with a high standard......and other think Christians are just delusional. Maybe both are right from case to case. It seems the best we can do is assume everyone we encounter is actually a better person than we are.
DD
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Primoa1970
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That particular verse refers to salvation being granted to the Gentile as well as the Jew. It talks about being gratfed into the same tree and such.....actually I'm thinking of Romans 11:11-24....sorry about that.
The free gift of salvation is open to all.....however, it was offered to the Jew first. As we know, most Jews have rejected this.
God's grace is open to all generations who will say yes to Him. Some will......some wont. But that's where the sovereignty of God comes into play. We still need to be empowered to believe in the first place.
-Primo
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1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
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desertdweller
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Very good question, I think, and not easy to answer - probably none of know for sure. The only thing I have come to feel is that we need to be more 'our brother's keeper.' We never really know who all has been praying for us. We underestimate the benefit of prayer for others...and praying for others more may more than lots of other things we do make us more Christ-like.
Maybe our part is just to be honest when we are asked a question. But I don't think we can control what we want, or even what we belive. I do sense we know when we are trying to paint a better picture of ourselves than is true. Somehow telling the truth about ourselves to God seems to open in us the road for God to do more.
God is a gentleman - he doesn't force Himself on us.
DD
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Eden
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Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then has God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
I have a question. Since we are all EQUALLY SINNERS, we can therefore only be SAVED BY GRACE. And grace means that God does something for us, and law means that we do something for God.
Now if it is all by grace, does that make God the ONLY DOER in this salvation matter since it is by grace, and what role do WE saved Christians play in this salvation thing then?
In other words, if it is all God’s doing, how can WE do anything to help? And the answer must be that we saved Christians have access to the Holy Spirit, and it is the grace of the Holy Spirit, and not OUR old man (Romans 6:6) who saves people so that it is STILL GOD?
It reminds me of that Watchman Nee graft story again, where ABOVE the graft slip good delicious thin-skinned fruit grew because the Holy Spirit was ABOVE the graft slip, but the old man was BELOW the graft slip and he is still as thick-skinned and thick-pitted BELOW the graft slip as he always was.
Once we are saved ourselves, we of course can hep by reading the Word of God ourselves or hearing it on CD and we can tell others about the value of the Word of God and we can pray for people to be saved, and we can give money to Christian preachers and teachers who want to perform that task on our behalf to get the Word out (because we have busy family duties, but we also have money).
God probably responds in grace to all, but I tend to think that REGULARLY PRAYING for whomever we want to see saved, a good friend, a daughter, a husband, that prayer is the one that God ansswers most, although I hear figures of “I prayed for 10 years, but my husband is saved now.” I could ask, “why did it take God 10 years to answer that prayer”?
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then has God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Did we do anything?
Be blessed and saved, everyone
Eden
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