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Topic: Predestination....
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nehushtan
New Member
Member # 6283
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chaffin:
What are some of your thoughts on predestination? I am just curious as to how you guys feel about it.
Good Morning & Have a Blessed New Year! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
My thoughts on Predestination are that I believe all Christians should 'study to show themselves approved' in God's Word. I believe before anyone may fully understand Predestination, they must also understand Election and what God teaches about those who are called/chosen. If we do, we may conclude that during this Church age; Election & Predestination are inseparable and His chosen have already gone ahead of us who remain on earth.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jan 2007
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
David,
I understand and agree with your decision to ban DoGon because of his comment about prayer. I had forgotten that he had made such a comment. I don't think that anyone ridiculed him for his atheistic comments or critical comments regarding our faith. Maybe our debate and discussion planted some seeds, but that seldom happens with someone who just wants to debate or argue. Anyway, he is in the hands of the Lord. Thanks for your post explaining your decision.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
David,
I'm sorry that you felt it was necessary to ban DoGon from this board. I don't know what he said that made you feel it was time to do this. I have no question about your authority to do this, I'm only wondering about your reason.
This is a Christian message board. The name of this message board is Christian BBS. We have rules posted when people join. We do not tolarate people coming on and trying to convence people that God is not real. We state the fact that we believe He is real and the Bible is His word. People are welcome to come on here and ask questions and that is why this message board is up, but they are not welcome to come on here and try and convence people God is not real.
Also the last straw was when doGon went to our prayer board and implied that prayer is useless seeming to be makeing fun of a prayer request.
This will not be tolarated on this message board.
It would have been good if doGon would have just debated and keep from belittling our members.
Hope this helps you understand.
Plow on, plow on...
David
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
David,
I'm sorry that you felt it was necessary to ban DoGon from this board. I don't know what he said that made you feel it was time to do this. I have no question about your authority to do this, I'm only wondering about your reason.
I have spent a lot of time in dialogue with DoGon and given a lot of thought to my responses to his questions and comments to me. I think that I was the last person to have any exchange with him. If there was something that he said about me that you felt was offensive, I would like to know what it was. You could tell me in a private message, if you choose to do that.
If he said something that personally offended you or other Christians on this board, then maybe he was no longer interested in continuing his dialogue with us. If his comment was just a matter between him and me, I would have preferred to handle it personally in my dialogue with him. I trust that you can understand my perspective on this matter. I was really trying to lead DoGon to Jesus. Thanks for your post. I was wondering why he hadn't responded to my last post.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
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doGon
Has been banned for braking the rules of the message board. So you will not get any response from doGon.
David
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Hi, doGon. I wonder if you could answer these 2 questions for me:
1. How many times have you read the Bible?
2. How long has it been since you last read the Bible?
Thank you, doGon.
Your friend in Christ, Eden
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
DoGon,
I'll try to clarify my point in response to your statement: quote:
It seems like what you said in regards to the authors you mentioned, was that they simply found N.T. verses in other places than in the Bible. This, however, can't be regarded as more, or new evidence for the Bible's validity...It simply means people used the N.T. in their own writings...If I'm way off on interpreting what you said when you brought this stuff up, then correct me....Im not a biblical historian....
In my comment and the quotes that I shared with you I did not mean to convey the idea that these authors or the church "Fathers" that they cited were only using the "N.T. in their own writings".
I'll try to clarify my point with some biblical history. If I don't make it clear, maybe someone else can add his/her commentary to my remarks.
The experience of God's revelation comes before the record of its event.
The early Christians did not become believers in Jesus by reading the New Testament documents, including the stories of His life in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The 3,000 individuals that were baptized into the fellowship of those who believed in Jesus on the day of Pentecost were not students who had spent a lot of time in the study of the Gospels or even the documents of the Old Testament. They had an experience with Jesus from what they saw and heard from God's action and Peter's preaching (see Acts 2:1-40).
Peter, James, and John and the other initial "disciples" (learners) of Jesus were not religious mystics who spent their time studying Greek philosophy or the writings of Moses and the prophets in the Old Testament. They were Israelites, but they became devoted believers in the diety of Jesus because they saw and experienced His "glory", not because of what they had read about it!
Even Paul, who was a well-trained Pharisee, did not become a Christian, a believer in the deity of Jesus, from his study of the Old Testament prophets, but from his personal experience with Jesus on the road to Damascus (see Acts 9:1-22).
My point applies to the record of God's revelation in the Old Testament as well. God's act of "passover" in which He spared the lives of His people's first born children and animals in preparation for their deliverance from 430 years of slavery in Egypt was experienced by these people before it was recorded by Moses and later celebrated in annual Passover festivals and studied in various gatherings of the Hebrew people (see Exodus 11:1-13:42).
Do you now understand my point, which I've tried to clarify in my above comments?
I'll respond to these questions: quote:
what do you mean by 'get on with your examination of the evidence'? Do you mean in the Bible? your personal relationship with Jesus?...what other evidence is there?
DoGon, you are not ready to get involved in a deep study of the Bible or biblical history. It won't make any sense to you without the guidance of the Holy Spirit within you. You need to make personal contact with some Christian preacher/teacher with whom you can share your questions and discuss this matter of God's revelation in Jesus Christ in regular dialogue. You need to investigate the "evidence" by participating in services of worship and study with other Christians who are themselves seeking to grow in their knowledge and devotion to Jesus. You could probably gain some insights into this matter by reading one or both of these books that I've recommended to you, but your personal experience of investigation is going to be more important than what you read.
Finally you need to pray that God will remove the "blindness" of your doubts and critical attitudes toward the Bible and ask God to personally reveal His glory in Jesus to you. He will do this if you really want to know the "truth" about Jesus.
I pray that these additional comments have clarified the points that I was trying to make in my last posting. If not, maybe someone else can help to do this. Ok?
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
unregistered
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posted
TB125,
It seems like what you said in regards to the authors you mentioned, was that they simply found N.T. verses in other places than in the Bible. This, however, can't be regarded as more, or new evidence for the Bible's validity...It simply means people used the N.T. in their own writings...If I'm way off on interpreting what you said when you brought this stuff up, then correct me....Im not a biblical historian....
quote:
Do you understand my above points? We can't take up a lot of space in this forum debating points like this. Get on with your examination of the "evidence". I've spent a lot of years living in a personal relationship with Jesus and God, the Father. This forum isn't big enough to contain my full testimony to the reality of this blessing! Ok?
what do you mean by 'get on with your examination of the evidence'? Do you mean in the Bible? your personal relationship with Jesus?...what other evidence is there?
I believe the Bible is a book written by men, no more special than any other book. I believe your 'personal relationship with God' is a mild form of delusion, along with other people's relationship with their respective gods....i have every reason to believe these things, and no reason to believe anything else....prove me wrong here....
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
DoGon,
In response to this statement and question: quote:
all of that stuff is simply duplications of the N.T. I dont get how thinking the more a book is copied, the more true it is??
I don't believe that the statements that I quoted indicated that these authors "copied" the New Testament. They quoted and otherwise used its text in various reports of historic events about Jesus and his early followers and their teachings. Their treatment of the New Testament is much different than that of the Scribes who spent the days of their lives making copies of the textual statements in the Old Testament documents. I haven't said or impled that the "more a book is copied, the more true it is".
I'll also respond to this statement: quote:
Ill read one of those two books, if you read Richard Dawkins' 'The God Delusion', otherwise dont ask me to read any books by authors that pre-suppose christianity being true....
I can read "The God Delusion", but I don't need to read more of his doubts and questions and faulty propositions regarding God. I've spent a lot of years studying various philosophies, histories, and theologians. These authors that I have asked you to read did not "pre-suppose" that Christianity was "true". In fact they believed that it wasn't, until they did their personal research.
Do you understand my above points? We can't take up a lot of space in this forum debating points like this. Get on with your examination of the "evidence". I've spent a lot of years living in a personal relationship with Jesus and God, the Father. This forum isn't big enough to contain my full testimony to the reality of this blessing! Ok?
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
unregistered
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posted
BecauseHElives,
quote:
doGon,
You call the bible just another book, but ask yourself one question…
If the “Bible” is just another book, why does a worthless piece of real-estate like Israel hold the importance in history that Israel hold?
If you are referring to the fact that Isreal is the "headquarters" to three major religions of the world, so what?...How does that make one of those three religions true??
TB125,
quote:
The fact that most homosexuals and disobedient teenages are not killed is evidence of God's patient love and His willingness to withhold some of His judgments at this time in this world.
Or it could be the fact that we dont agree with the Bible on these matters, and today's society has morally decided not to kill homosexuals, teenagers, and adulterers...
As for the latter half of your post, when you talk about other evidence besides the N.T., all of that stuff is simply duplications of the N.T. I dont get how thinking the more a book is copied, the more true it is??
quote:
I haven't asked you to believe in God just because I say that He exists. I've asked you to at least read two books by former atheists Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel and to make a serious personal effort to get to know Jesus.
Ill read one of those two books, if you read Richard Dawkins' 'The God Delusion', otherwise dont ask me to read any books by authors that pre-suppose christianity being true....
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
DoGon,
I'll respond to this statement and question: quote:
the bad morality in the Bible (killing homosexuals, killing disobedient teenagers, etc.) what's your rationale for these things being in the Bible that you believe is written by God?
Since I believe that the laws in the Bible were dictated or otherwise established and recorded in accord with His authority, it is reasonable for me to understand that such laws as those regarding homosexuality and the disobedience of teenages are important and that there are severe consequences for their disobedience. The fact that most homosexuals and disobedient teenages are not killed is evidence of God's patient love and His willingness to withhold some of His judgments at this time in this world.
You seem to conclude that my believe in the Christian's God is based on my reading of the Bible in spite of the fact that I have stated that "my faith in God is not based completely upon the Bible". You state: quote:
The only evidence for the christian God is the Bible.
That is not true! I'll cite a couple of quotations from Josh McDowells book, "Evidence That Demands a Verdict", to support my statement.
quote:
J. Harold Greenlee says that the quotations of the Scripture in the works of the early Christian writers "are so extensive that the N.T. could virtually be reconstructed from them without the use of the New Testment manuscripts." (p. 50)
And quote:
Sir David Dairymple was wondering about the preponderance of Scripture in early writing when someone asked him, "Suppose that the New Testament had been destroyed, and every copy of it lost by the end of the third century, could it have been collected together again from the writings of the Fathers of the second and third centuries?" After a great deal of investigation Dalrymple concluded: "Look at those books. You remember the question about the New Testament and the Fathers? That question roused my curiosity, and as I possessed all the existing works of the Fathers of the second and third centuries, I commenced to search, and up to this time I have found the entire New Testament, except eleven verses " (Josh McDowell's book p. 51)
I'm not going to cite or quote all of the statements that I could to support my testimony regarding God's existence and identity as "the Father", the God who sent His Son, Jesus, into the world who has redeemed me from my sins.
The centuries of history for Christianity are evidence for my Christian God. The biblical records are supported over and over again by archeological evidence that indicates that their accounts are correct and reliable. My personal experience of God is reinforced by the testimonies of many others in the words of Christian hymns and in collective acts of worship. I know that the followers of Islam could make these same statements, but I'm only making these additional comments to reinforce my statement that my faith is not based on only the Bible. The record of God's revelation in the Bible has been tested over and over again, and it has always been proved to be true.
I haven't asked you to believe in God just because I say that He exists. I've asked you to at least read two books by former atheists Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel and to make a serious personal effort to get to know Jesus.
I'm not going to fill up this forum with all of the "evidence" and quotations that are available in support of the God of Christianity. You say, quote:
I simply need to actually be shown with evidence why and how I am wrong,
I challenge you to really personally and seriously check out the "evidence". I would suppose that the two quotations that I cited above regarding the duplication of the New Testament text in non-biblical documents is new "evidence" for you. There is a whole lot more of this "evidence" that you need to examine. Ok?
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
doGon,
You call the bible just another book, but ask yourself one question…
If the “Bible” is just another book, why does a worthless piece of real-estate like Israel hold the importance in history that Israel hold?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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doGon
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Anyway, it is good to continue to share with you in this discussion. I probably didn't touch on all of your comments above, but this is enough for this post.
Yeah. I was hoping you would comment about when I talked about the bad morality in the Bible (killing homosexuals, killing disobedient teenagers, etc.) what's your rationale for these things being in the Bible that you believe is written by God?
quote:
It is not the Bible that claims God's existence. The Bible is one record, bit of evidence, among many for God's existence. As I've said before, my faith in God is not based completely upon the Bible, it is based in my personal experience of God's forgiving love and grace and transforming power in my daily life.
When you say there is a lot of evidence for god's existence (a non-specific god), i would agree (none that I think is good evidence, but arguments none-the-less). The only evidence for the christian God is the Bible. The evidence for Allah is in the Quran, etc....The Bible claims that the God of the Bible exists. Now, your personal testimony being evidence for God, is based on the what you have read in the Bible. Ever the Bible didnt exists, and you still had a personal testimony, it would be for a very different kind of god (in my opinion), since you wouldnt have the Bible that claims that specific God's existence (hopefully not too confusing)....
The reason I cant take solely your personal testimony for God is because its your own evidence....If i used personal testimony for sole evidences of things, I would believe in alien abductions, because many people have personal testimonies of being abducted. I need actual, empirical, testable evidence, which should be able to be provided by the Bible, but unfortunately, it does not hold up...
quote:
DoGon you have a lot of confidence (I might say pride) in your own intellectual and rational ability to deny the existence of God and to "be happy" with your ability to get through your days without seriously "hurting anyone" (including God) and having to seek their forgiveness.
What's wrong with having confidence in my intellectual and rational abilities? This isnt to say that I am completely closed to admitting I'm wrong; I change my mind about things all the time. I simply need to actually be shown with evidence why and how I am wrong, other than just being told, 'i have faith that God exists'.....
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
DoGon,
Thanks for your clear response to my previous messages and questions. I'm not going to debate your responses at length in this forum. That would require too many lengthy messages between us to please either of us and the other viewers to this topic.
I'll make a brief comment to this statement that you just made: quote:
I dont believe God exists is because of those contradictions, false prophecies, and absurdities in the Bible that claims his existence.
It is not the Bible that claims God's existence. The Bible is one record, bit of evidence, among many for God's existence. As I've said before, my faith in God is not based completely upon the Bible, it is based in my personal experience of God's forgiving love and grace and transforming power in my daily life.
I'll also briefly respond to this statement that you have made: quote:
I also have a problem with the morality that is in it, and the morality that is in it screams to me that it was nothing more than the authors of the time expressing their views, and not a God doing it
Jesus summarized all of the laws in the Bible in this answer to "an expert in the law" who asked him "which is the greatest commandment in the law?": "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:35-40)
These laws did not originate with Moses and the Prophets or the apostles. They were set in place and established by God in accord with His authority over His created humanity.
It is good that you do, as you say: quote:
try my best to go through life without hurting anyone...and if everyone else tried their best not to hurt anyone, I dont see how you couldnt agree that this would be a better place to live....
But "my best" is not good enough to protect my "neighbor" from being "hurt" by me, and it is certainly not good enough to please God who sent His Son into the world to die so that God could confir upon me His forgiving grace.
Certainly the world would be a "better place" in which to live if everyone just loved their "neighbor" as much as they loved themselves, but most of us are too selfish to even get close to doing that.
DoGon you have a lot of confidence (I might say pride) in your own intellectual and rational ability to deny the existence of God and to "be happy" with your ability to get through your days without seriously "hurting anyone" (including God) and having to seek their forgiveness.
Anyway, it is good to continue to share with you in this discussion. I probably didn't touch on all of your comments above, but this is enough for this post.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
unregistered
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posted
quote:
I'm still interested in your reponse to my comments regarding your attitude toward the Bible and your answer to my latest question regarding your intention to live without "hurting anyone". Can you respond to these matters for me?
Yes, but I would also like to respond to the post just before that one as well...
quote:
You have made it clear, at least to me, from many of your comments, that your attitude toward the Bible is not due to its "contradictions" and other cited problems in its textual statements. Your attitude that it isn't "true" is due to the many rules and laws and teachings for moral behavior that you feel Moses, the prophets, Jesus, Peter, Paul, and most Christian priests, preachers, and some other believers seek to impose upon you.
Yes I agree. I not only have a problem with the contradictions and false prophecies in the Bible. I also have a problem with the morality that is in it, and the morality that is in it screams to me that it was nothing more than the authors of the time expressing their views, and not a God doing it...Are there a lot of things I agree with morally in the bible? Of course there are. However, things like killing homosexuals, killing disobedient children, killing adulterers, etc. I dont agree with, and Im sure you guys dont either. To me this sounds more like people writing what they felt, 2000 years ago, much moreso than a God writing what he felt...
quote:
You reject the Bible as being untrue, Christianity as being irrational, and the existence of God not because of the Bible, but because the Spirit of God years ago began to work on you to "convict" you of the "sin" of some behavior that you probably enjoy and don't want to quit. You are using these "contradictions" and other cited problems in various biblical statements as a "rational" excuse to get away from God and the authority that He has over you.
Obviously I don't agree with this. As I wrote above, I reject the bible and christianity because of its contradictions, false prophecies, absurd morality, and irrationality. What if a Muslim told you the following:
"You reject the Quran as being untrue, Islam as being irrational, and the existence of Allah not because of the Quran, but because the Spirit of Allah years ago began to work on you to "convict" you of the "sin" of some behavior that you probably enjoy and don't want to quit. You are using these "contradictions" and other cited problems in various quranic statements as a "rational" excuse to get away from Allah and the authority that He has over you."
You obviously wouldnt agree, because you dont believe Allah exists. I dont believe either of those gods exist...The reason I dont believe isnt only because I dont like the God's 'rules' (i like some, and i dont like others). The main reason I dont believe, is because I dont believe God exists. And the main (not only) reason I dont believe God exists is because of those contradictions, false prophecies, and absurdities in the Bible that claims his existence.
As for your newer post....
quote:
I've discovered that I can't be "happy" and avoid "hurting anyone" no matter what I believe on my own. I am not smart enough, consistently good enough, loving enough to do this for even a short time on this "battlefield" of the world in which I live. That is why I need to be in a personal and constant relationship with Jesus, my Savior, having His Spirit within me. It is the indwelling presence of this Spirit that enables me to experience some joy, which is deeper and more abiding than happiness, and enables me to avoid "hurting" others, particularly when they "hurt" me.
What makes you think that you can live without "hurting anyone", even for a moment? I am interested in your answer, and there may be others as well. I hope that you will continue in our discussion.
Obviously it will be almost, if not, impossible to go through life without hurting someone (emotionally or physically). Maybe what I should have said was, to try my best to go through life without hurting anyone...and if everyone else tried their best not to hurt anyone, I dont see how you couldnt agree that this would be a better place to live....
As for the part above where you say you dont think you can be happy and not hurting people on your own , but that you need Jesus inside you to get close to being able to doing that. From my point of view, you are doing this on your own , and you are stronger than you realize, you just 'pass off the credit' to someone/something else...
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
DoGon,
I responded to you and your statement regarding your attitude toward the Bible as stated in this quote: quote:
my conflict is solely with the Bible
in my post, which also indicated that I was interested in continuing our discussion. It wasn't a matter of either one or the other.
Thanks for clarifying your post to me. I'm still interested in your reponse to my comments regarding your attitude toward the Bible and your answer to my latest question regarding your intention to live without "hurting anyone". Can you respond to these matters for me?
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
unregistered
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posted
quote:
DoGon,
I don't understand this question that you have addressed to me:
quote:
Which one is it TB125?
Which one of what is it that you are wondering about? And I don't understand why you quoted this statement to you:
quote:
DoGon,
I'll respond one more time to something that you have said:
I asked 'which one is it' because in the post you said 'ill respond one more time to something that you have said'. I took that to mean you were going to respond once more and then not want to talk to me again. Then at the end of that post you said you wanted to continure chatting. I wasn't sure which one you wanted, but maybe it was just a misunderstanding on my part....
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
doGon,
I thought you may like this short article:
Jesus said to His disciples, ’If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself . . .’ —Matthew 16:24
Individuality is the hard outer layer surrounding the inner spiritual life. Individuality shoves others aside, separating and isolating people. We see it as the primary characteristic of a child, and rightly so. When we confuse individuality with the spiritual life, we remain isolated. This shell of individuality is God’s created natural covering designed to protect the spiritual life. But our individuality must be yielded to God so that our spiritual life may be brought forth into fellowship with Him. Individuality counterfeits spirituality, just as lust counterfeits love. God designed human nature for Himself, but individuality corrupts that human nature for its own purposes.
The characteristics of individuality are independence and self-will. We hinder our spiritual growth more than any other way by continually asserting our individuality. If you say, "I can’t believe," it is because your individuality is blocking the way; individuality can never believe. But our spirit cannot help believing. Watch yourself closely when the Spirit of God is at work in you. He pushes you to the limits of your individuality where a choice must be made. The choice is either to say, "I will not surrender," or to surrender, breaking the hard shell of individuality, which allows the spiritual life to emerge. The Holy Spirit narrows it down every time to one thing (see Matthew 5:23-24 ). It is your individuality that refuses to "be reconciled to your brother" ( Matthew 5:24 ). God wants to bring you into union with Himself, but unless you are willing to give up your right to yourself, He cannot. ". . . let him deny himself . . ."— deny his independent right to himself. Then the real life-the spiritual life-is allowed the opportunity to grow.
By: Oswald Chambers
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
DoGon,
I don't understand this question that you have addressed to me: quote:
Which one is it TB125?
Which one of what is it that you are wondering about? And I don't understand why you quoted this statement to you: quote:
DoGon,
I'll respond one more time to something that you have said:
It refers to my statement that was made in response to your statement that quote:
quote:
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my conflict is solely with the Bible
As I indicated in my previous message to you, I'm glad to continue in this discussion with you. I hope that we can keep the subjects of our comments clear. That is why I quote you in making my statements. Please clarify my lack of understanding regarding your message to me. Let's continue, OK?
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
DoGon,
I am glad to continue our discussion. I think that Eden is also willing to share in it. There may be others, and maybe even j4Jesus will jump in from time to time.
You made a statement in your previous message to which I will respond: quote:
If you are happy and not hurting anyone, whatever you believe, that is the only thing that matters to me.
I've discovered that I can't be "happy" and avoid "hurting anyone" no matter what I believe on my own. I am not smart enough, consistently good enough, loving enough to do this for even a short time on this "battlefield" of the world in which I live. That is why I need to be in a personal and constant relationship with Jesus, my Savior, having His Spirit within me. It is the indwelling presence of this Spirit that enables me to experience some joy, which is deeper and more abiding than happiness, and enables me to avoid "hurting" others, particularly when they "hurt" me.
What makes you think that you can live without "hurting anyone", even for a moment? I am interested in your answer, and there may be others as well. I hope that you will continue in our discussion.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
unregistered
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posted
quote:
DoGon,
I'll respond one more time to something that you have said:
quote:
I think that some of us will be glad to continue to share in this discussion with you. Ok?
Which one is it TB125? If J4Jesus is the only one who wants this to stop, then I will stay, but if you guys dont want to talk anymore, then I will leave....
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TB125
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DoGon,
I'll respond one more time to something that you have said: quote:
my conflict is solely with the Bible
You have made it clear, at least to me, from many of your comments, that your attitude toward the Bible is not due to its "contradictions" and other cited problems in its textual statements. Your attitude that it isn't "true" is due to the many rules and laws and teachings for moral behavior that you feel Moses, the prophets, Jesus, Peter, Paul, and most Christian priests, preachers, and some other believers seek to impose upon you.
You reject the Bible as being untrue, Christianity as being irrational, and the existence of God not because of the Bible, but because the Spirit of God years ago began to work on you to "convict" you of the "sin" of some behavior that you probably enjoy and don't want to quit. You are using these "contradictions" and other cited problems in various biblical statements as a "rational" excuse to get away from God and the authority that He has over you.
You haven't committed the "unpardonable" sin. Your presence in this forum is evidence of that. Continue in this discussion. Some of us may be able to introduce you once again to Jesus who died to redeem you from having to try to please God by living in accord to rules. No one can do it!
I pray that this additional comment is helpful. I think that some of us will be glad to continue to share in this discussion with you. Ok?
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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Eden
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Quote by J4Jesus about doGon:
Do it! Somebody have the guts to end this thing.
doGon answered:
Ok....I will....
I know I have often been a jerk, and I am sorry for that. The main reason I have a problem with religion is because there are so many of them in this world, and it seems to be greatly getting in the way from all of us living a happy, peaceful, cohesive, meaningful life together.
Eden here:
Actually there are a lot of people in each religion who are at peace with themselves and with their god, and are not hurting anyone.
But in most of Islam as in Saudi Arabia, a person who is born Islamic IS NOT ALLOWED TO CHOOSE another religion on threat of being killed or beheaded.
One thing I love about Christianity, but this can be said also of the so-called Eastern religions, is that they are voluntary choices in today’s world. Only Islam and Hindus are currently into this “Islam or be killed mode” and “Hindustan for Hindus!” mode, but Christianity is a loving, free-choice religion which someone can freely choose.
I will agree however that being born into Christianity makes Christians also prejudiced against other religions, but in most cases, Christians will not kill people who believe in other religions, especially in more modern times, whereas radical Islam is currently in that “Islam-only-allowedmode”, whereas Christianity says, “choose me if you want, but I’m not forcing you” by the threat of being killed or beheaded for “honor killing’s” sake.
doGon continues:
We only have one life on this Earth. Maybe there is heaven and hell afterwards, maybe not. I am living as if there is nothing afterwards, because that is what reality dictates to me as truth. And this gives me infinite more value to this ONE life I believe I have.
Eden here:
I don’t agree with you saying that knowing only about this one life and then living as if it is only one life will be better than also knowing that there is a life to come offered with a body like Jesus had after his resurrection. It gives me great joy in this life to know that this life will not be all there is and there are much greater things coming up still. Now, that is joy, my friend.
DoGon also said:
If you are happy and not hurting anyone, whatever you believe, that is the only thing that matters to me. And hopefully you guys feel the same way.
Eden here:
Yes, on earth I agree, that we must be happy and not hurt anyone, except in wartime. But if we can gain free access to the next phase of earth-life thru the suffering which Jesus did for us on the cross and can enter freely into the next phase of earth-life, than there is a lot more available to us than just, “If you are happy and not hurting anyone, whatever you believe, that is the only thing that matters to me. And hopefully you guys feel the same way.”
doGon continued:
I will add one more thing to my e-signature before I leave. If you do all those other things in my e-signature and still find yourself coming back to God and the Bible, and finding happiness in it, that's great...Just remember that not everyone finds happiness, morality, and a meaningful life in the same way you do. I have learned that, and hopefully you have, or will, too...So long....
Eden here:
DoGon, all the things you are saying belong to the first Adamic earth phase. There is a second phase coming which we can enter into only by our own choice, and this is accepting that God sent Jesus to pay for the whole world’s sins so that God could freely move to His mercy and give all sinners who accept Jesus a free ticket into the next world to come, the renewed earth and the renewed sky:
Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isaiah 66:22
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
The Bible is the transition book on how to escape the things that are soon coming on the first earth and to the first sky and how to make it into the renewed earth and the renewed sky, thru accepting that Jesus died on our behalf for our sins (I know that I have given someone “safe-looking”, i.e., not a shaved head or big rougher-looking guy the finger on the freeway for tailgating me too closely recently).
Sin has made it impossible for humankind to reach the glory of God on display in Jesus, and hence Jesus was our “bridge over” or "passover" by paying for everyone's sins so that God can freely give the next phase of life to those who are willing to accept and able that Jesus suffered and died on the cross for them, so that God can give us, who are all equally sinners in the eyes of God compared to Jesus, can freely give us a free pass into the next life to come, headed tis time by Jesus as Lord:
Genesis 18:25
That be far from You to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked; that the righteous be as the wicked, that be far from You: Shall the Judge of all the earth not do what is right?
doGon. Please stay and discuss with those of us who would like to continue to talk with you, like Forever His and TB125, and me.
Take care, and, return. Eden
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Eden
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Hi, J4Jesus. You said about doGon:
And he's not listening to what ya'll are saying. He is finding something to argue about everytime you mention something.
Do it! Somebody have the guts to end this thing.
Eden here:
This is wrong advice, J4Jesus. The Holy Spirit will speak through Christians to men and women like doGon who have not yet seen the value of Jesus's sacrifice on the cross, and we must allow the Holy Spirit to do His Work, in anyone who shares with us here on this Christian site.
Don't propose that "somebody have the guts to end this, because doGon is not listening anyway," for you have NO IDEA what kind of work, if any, God is doing in doGon's heart through this discussion.
And frankly, doGon has spoken in a mostly mild-mannered and friendly give-and-take manner, which is to be respected and deserves our and anyone's patience of discussion. To be saved in time is the goal of our discussion. Let doGon end the discussion if he wants to, but let not us be the ones ending a discussion with a man or woman discussing with us Christians what it is that we believe.
Hey, it was really hard for me to believe it all too before I was able to believe that it was all true and was the future for the earth. Be patient, my young friend.
Be blessed, J4Jesus.
Eden
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Eden
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Hi, doGon, in your answer to TB125, you said:
But don't you see? The 'threat' of hell and the 'gift' of heaven is the manipulation... Hell is the 'gun' to everyone’s head, the threat that if you don't pick 'box A' (Jesus), then you will get shot (go to hell). I simply don't believe there is a gun, a shooter, or any boxes, because it is absurd and made up.
Eden here:
No, I think what the Living God, the creator of the sky and earth, is saying here is that the administration of earth by humans DID NOT WORK because look at what has happened by 2006.
It is my understanding that the 3 Greek words all translated “hell” in the King James Version refer to total destruction, in the sense of, not allowed to partake in the next phase of life.
There is a constant thread in the Bible that those who will NOT choose life through the suffering on the cross by Jesus will be destroyed, will be gehenna-ed or burned with the heat as of sulfur in this lake of fire which the LORD will generate in the end of the first Adamic line to do away with the first contaminated Adam line, and restart a fresh line in Himself, in Jesus, who is also called the last Adam:
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living creature; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
What Jesus is saying is that this generation of humans from the first Adam has become corrupt through choosing sin, and will be restarted in Jesus, the last Adam.
Without an intervention by this Jesus, look at us today. All the borders of the nations are now mostly fixed firmly. There are rogue countries like Iran and killer-marxist North Korea with potential nuclear bombs.
Or the LORD can open up the breaks inbetween the tectonic plates and bring up a lake of lava fire up onto the surface of the tectonic plates of the earth, and “cleanse the earth of everything”, that has not risen up to Him in a simultaneous rapture, watching from above, as either nuclear man destroys the earth or the oceans are fished empty and there is industrial pollution everywhere and a war between radical Islam and moderate Christianity has started.
Jesus is merely saying, “hell or destruction is where you will end up all by yourselves if you do not accept by sacrifical offer of escape to the next Adamic world, as we Christians who have accepted the sacrifice and suffering made by Jesus on the cross for us, makes it possible to freely grant us a free pass (not earned by our sinful behavior but a free pass earned only by the suffering of Jesus on the cross for us}.
And by this free pass we are allowed into the next world-to-come which is being started by this next Adam Jesus.
And in this next Adam Jesus, we will miraculously start out and be given a new body just like the body Jesus had after the resurrection.
So, doGon, it is not the “threat of hell” but the natural result of what will happen if Jesus or God DOES NOT INTERVENE.
The Living God is INDEED saying, If you will not accept the sacrifice that My Son Jesus made on the cross, I will not save you or let you escape from the earth to the next world-to-come, and you will die with the first earth Adamic world, if you will not accept the suffering of My Son Jesus on your behalf, to pay for your sins that you have committed.
By Jesus dying on the cross, the sins of the earth are paid for, so that the Living God can freely and happily move to His mercy and give those who accept Jesus’s sacrifice a free ticket into the next phase of “earth life”, in this case, a renewed earth and renewed sky in which those with a body like Jesus will dwell next in this most-unusual universe, and planet, or ours.
Be blessed, doGon. Choose life, and not death or destruction with the first Adamic line, from which sudden destruction even enlightenment and satori and nirvana cannot save us.
1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction shall come upon them, as travail comes upon a woman in childbirth; and they shall not escape.
Deuteronomy 30:19
For I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live.
But because:
Romans 3:23
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God,
Therefore Jesus died for us so that God would have no conscience problems with His Justice side by giving every sinner who accepts the suffering of Jesus on their behalf, is free of charge, allowed to participate in the next phase of earth life.
Acts 2:40
And with many other words did he {Peter} testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from THIS UNTOWARD GENERATION.
Be blessed, doGon.
Eden
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doGon
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quote:
Do it! Somebody have the guts to end this thing.
Ok....I will....
I know I have often been a jerk, and I am sorry for that. The main reason I have a problem with religion is because there are so many of them in this world, and it seems to be greatly getting in the way from all of us living a happy, peaceful, cohesive, meaningful life together.
We only have one life on this Earth. Maybe there is heaven and hell afterwards, maybe not. I am living as if there is nothing afterwards, because that is what reality dictates to me as truth. And this gives me infinite more value to this ONE life I believe I have.
If you are happy and not hurting anyone, whatever you believe, that is the only thing that matters to me. And hopefully you guys feel the same way.
I will add one more thing to my e-signature before I leave. If you do all those other things in my e-signature and still find yourself coming back to God and the Bible, and finding happiness in it, that's great...Just remember that not everyone finds happiness, morality, and a meaningful life in the same way you do. I have learned that, and hopefully you have, or will, too...So long....
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Kindgo
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You are right little brother! ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif) Here is the scriptures to back you up.
Pro 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Mat 7:6 — Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you .
Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Bye doGon
Hope you find what you are searching for before its to late. Praying for you. ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
PS
Josh, I am so happy to see how much you have grown
in your faith.
Your post are right on. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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J4Jesus
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C'mon guys.
I don't even know why I'm making a big deal of this.
But for real, dogon just wants to Argue and make you all look foolish. It's not working.
And he's not listening to what ya'll are saying. He is finding something to argue about everytime you mention something.
Do it! Somebody have the guts to end this thing.
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doGon
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J4Jesus,
quote:
He can't return to God if he never followed God in the first place.
this makes no sense. First of all, I did follow God years ago, but If I had never been a christian, you think that means I can never be a christian in the future?? We are all born with no religion, we just learn religion from our elders as we grow. So if what you say is true, since no one technically followed God in the first place, no one can ever become christian...
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doGon
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quote:
Your conflict is not with the Bible; it is with your "father", with God who created you and who continues to call you and wait for you to return to Him. I'm praying for you.
Actually my conflict is solely with the Bible, of which God and Jesus is described within....I can read the Bible, I have evidence that the Bible exists. I have conflicts with what is in the Bible, because there is no evidence to support its extraordinary claims. You think my conflict is with God Himself, except that I have no evidence He exists....I also have no conflict with the invisible pink unicorn named Jerry, just with the idea, the evidence, that such a being exists...
As for "I'm praying for you." What's the point? I thought God had his own divine plan - a plan for everything and everyone (tell me if you dont believe this). So, if he has everything set in fate, how will a prayer change his plan? Obviously if he is real, he doesnt want me to believe...Why pray for something God doesn't want? And if you did pray for me to repent, and God answered your prayer by making me repent, wouldnt he then be affecting my free will?
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J4Jesus
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eh, He can't return to God if he never followed God in the first place.
seriously, what are ya'll doing?
ya'll have done everything you can to tell dogon what's up.
he doesn't want to believe, he just wants to argue.
end it already.
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TB125
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DoGon,
Here we go again. I'll respond to more of your statements. You say: quote:
We just don't believe that the "ONE TRUTH" is a book written 2000 years ago by men...
Neither j4Jesus nor I have said that the Bible is the "ONE TRUTH" that we are to believe. The "ONE TRUTH" is Jesus, who said of Himself, "I am the way and THE TRUTH and the life" (John 14:6).
Jesus did not tell His disciples that He was going to leave them with a book when he left, but He promised to leave them with the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who is our teacher (John 14:26),the "Spirit of truth" (John 15:26), the one who "will testify about me" (John 15:26), and the one who "will guide" us "into all truth" (John 16:13).
I'll skip any debate regarding the "contraditions" and other biblical problems that are cited in the "Skeptics Annotated Bible". Your conflict is not with the Bible; it is with God and His Son and His Spirit.
I will respond to this final statement that you make: quote:
Actually, if you believe what your Bible tells you (and if it's true), then there is no hope for me even If I repented and put my trust in the Lord...The Bible says there is an unforgiveable sin of blaspheming the holy spirit (which I have done)
I do believe the Bible when it says that there is an "unforgiveable sin", but I don't believe that you have committed it. You wouldn't be here on this forum and continuing as you have day after day in this discussion if the Holy Spirit and God was through with you.
If you sincerely repented of the pride you have in your sense of what is "reasonable" and "rational" and put your "trust (your faith) in the Lord", I'm sure that you would be greatly surprised by how the Lord would respond to you; like the son who was "lost" was surprised by the response he received from his father when he returned to be with him (Luke 15:11-24).
Your conflict is not with the Bible; it is with your "father", with God who created you and who continues to call you and wait for you to return to Him. I'm praying for you.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
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J4Jesus,
of course we believe there is "ONE TRUTH" out there. We just don't believe that the "ONE TRUTH" is a book written 2000 years ago by men...
TB125,
quote:
Perhaps you can understand this analogy: no rebellious child can receive any gift that a loving parent tries to give to him/her as long as he/she stands in front of the parent with his/her arms crossed against his/her chest in stubborn defiance of the parent's authority. There is another place for such a child than the parent's home. In regard to God and His human creation, that place is "hell".
A child refusing a parent's gift deserves to be put by that parent, in a lake of fire to be torture for all of eternity? doesnt that seem a little shallow by the parent?
quote:
'm not going to go through all of the "contradictions", "False Prophecies" and "
General Absurdities" that are listed in your links from the "Skeptics Annotated Bible" and try to explain them. I don't believe that anyone's effort to do so would impress you.
hmmm, funny, since you were the one who asked me to cite examples....did you really think there arent any examples of contradictions/false prophecies etc? have you read through your Bible completely? There are over 1600 examples in those links...and while I know some are kind of frivalous and dumb, most are not.
quote:
You are in a very dangerous position right now, a position where you may so "harden" your mind and heart against God that He will just leave you alone and stop "knocking on the door" so that He can come into your life and share His gift of Jesus with you. I'll keep praying for you. I'm sorry that I haven't been able to be more helpful.
Actually, if you believe what your Bible tells you (and if it's true), then there is no hope for me even If I repented and put my trust in the Lord...The Bible says there is an unforgiveable sin of blaspheming the holy spirit (which I have done)
quote:
Matthew 12:31-32
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
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J4Jesus
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dogon and other non believers alike can't handle the thought that there actually might be ONE TRUTH out there.
ya'll are going in circles with this.
dogon doesn't want to believe, quit feeding his desire to prove himself right.
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TB125
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DoGon,
I'll respond to another of your statements: quote:
The 'threat' of hell and the 'gift' of heaven is the manipulation
God is not manipulating anyone with any "'threat' of hell and the 'gift' of heaven". Hell is simply a place that God has established for those who in their rebellion against His divine authority reject His "gift" of love and grace that He offers in Jesus. No one, not even you, would like to be forced to live with a bunch of "rebels" who dislike you, don't respect you, don't wish to obey you, don't appreciate your good gifts, and who don't enjoy your presence forever. "Heaven", on the other hand, is the place that God has established as the residence for His family of redeemed children, His Son and Holy Spirit, and His devoted angels.
Perhaps you can understand this analogy: no rebellious child can receive any gift that a loving parent tries to give to him/her as long as he/she stands in front of the parent with his/her arms crossed against his/her chest in stubborn defiance of the parent's authority. There is another place for such a child than the parent's home. In regard to God and His human creation, that place is "hell".
I'm not going to go through all of the "contradictions", "False Prophecies" and "
General Absurdities" that are listed in your links from the "Skeptics Annotated Bible" and try to explain them. I don't believe that anyone's effort to do so would impress you. Your rebellion is against God, not against me or anyone else in this forum. I'm not sure that there is anything more that I can share with you that will encourage you to take another look at Jesus. There may not be anything that anyone else on this board can share with you that will help you in your relationship with the God whose existence you deny.
You are in a very dangerous position right now, a position where you may so "harden" your mind and heart against God that He will just leave you alone and stop "knocking on the door" so that He can come into your life and share His gift of Jesus with you. I'll keep praying for you. I'm sorry that I haven't been able to be more helpful.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
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Forever His,
quote:
Does God want everyone saved? Absolutely!!! Will He use force or manipulation to cause anyone to be saved? What would be the point?
But don't you see? The 'threat' of hell and the 'gift' of heaven is the manipulation...If I were to come to you and ask you to chose box A or box B, no problem, you would just pick one....If I were to come to you, ask you to pick box A or box B, then put a gun to your head and say that I will shoot you if you dont pick box A, there is the manipulation. there is where the 'free will' falls apart....Hell is the 'gun' to everyones head, the threat that if you don't pick 'box A' (Jesus), then you will get shot(go to hell). I simply don't believe there is a gun, a shooter, or any boxes, because it is absurd and made up....
TB125,
Yes, I read your stuff...however, for me to get anything out of it, I would have to pre-suppose the Bible is true (which I dont). were you expecting me to read what you wrote and then bow down to the Lord??
As for asking me for evidence for false prophecies, lies, contradictions, bad science etc...ill post links, cause I dont really feel like going through and copying and pasting the most profound ones, but im sure you guys will just shrug all these off anyways...
Contradictions
False Prophecies
General Absurdities
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TB125
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DoGon,
Once again I'll respond to you and the statements that you continue to make. Like this one: quote:
It seems like you just keep telling yourself that your book (Bible) is not just 'another holy book' and that it really is true, and that there is evidence for this truth. This simply is not true. There are MANY things in the Bible that are contradictions, untruths, false-prophecies, bad science, etc...As well as these things are in the other holy books
I assume that you haven't read my statement on "The Bible" to which I referred you or Josh McDowell's book or Lee Strobel's book. Can you cite any "false-prophecies" from the Bible? What are the "untruths" to which you refer? What "contradictions" can you cite?
Please do not continue to make such statements without some report that you have examined the "evidence", that you have at least read some of the statements of others who have examined such "evidence". You obviously have a strong sense of doubt regarding any matter of "faith", but I've been asking you to personally investigate the "evidence" before you continue to challenge me and other Christians on this forum with your "doubts" and irrational statements. I'll continue in this dialogue with you, but I would like to know that you are really serious in your search for answers to your questions. Have you at least read my brief statements to which I have referred you? I think this is a fair request.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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Forever His
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Do Gone wrote :
3.) God wants everyone to believe but doesnt have the power to make it so
Well... first of all God not only created everything that exists... He also "sustains" it moment by moment! That sounds pretty powerful to me. That being the case how would it be possible that He doesn't have the power to cause everyone to believe ? Well...that is a good question and deserves a good answer.
God created His kingdom with the ability of free choice... after all what point would there be in making mere atomotons that bowed down and worshiped Him on command? What meaning would that have... You could program your computer to desplay a sign on the computor screen each morning that said....
" DoGone... your the best best!!! I love and adore you. You are wonderful! I just want to worship you everytime I think about you"
How much meaning would that have for you? You see God gave each of us a free will to "choose" to serve Him... or not. If God had to used force or manipulated in any way... it would have about as much meaning as programing your computor to display a message each time you walked into the room ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
Does God want everyone saved? Absolutely!!! Will He use force or manipulation to cause anyone to be saved? What would be the point?
God IS Love... His desire is to have a "personal relationship" with you and with me. He desires to be our friend...
Best wishes to you and yours this season
Forever His
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Eden
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Hi, doGon. You said:
Well, I don't really know where to take this now....It's me against your faith, which means end of discussion, because that is what faith is - a discussion-killer.
Eden here:
No, discussion of my faith is NOT a discussion-killer. That is not the nature of MY faith. My faith is based on FACTS which I seen in the Bible, and these Biblical FACTS have been me FAITH that there really is a God BEHIND the universe, and that this God is none other than the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
A lot of people who have read the religious books of the Far Eastern religions pooh-pooh the Bible, even WITHOUT ever having read the Bible, or having read the Bible through MORE than one time, say 3 times or 5 times.
And over time, the veracity of what is said in the Bible begins to sink in on the reader, that these facts, if true, mean that there is a Living God, and that He is the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and that there is NONE OTHER GOD.
We can of course say that the Bible is good literature, or poetical, and good fiction, and that therefore the miracles described therein DID NOT REALLY HAPPEN.
But I regard the Bible NOT as good literature or poetic sections or historical sections, but as a LEGAL TRANSCRIPT of what really happened to a whole tribe no less and not just to ONE person as in seeking enlightenment over a period of 5,000 years. A TRANSCRIPT like a COURT transcript. Not fantasy, but a legal record of what really happened to this unusual tribe over a period of centuries and even over millennia.
A transcript which alleges that miracles occurred, like the plagues on Misr Egypt and like the crossing of the Red Sea and like the crossing of the Jordan river when the river was rushing at high-snowmelt, the miracle of this tribe conquering Hamite Canaan.
And how from that same tribe came the miracle baby Jesus born miraculously to Mary of Nazareth in Bethelehem from the family of David in the tribe of Judah.
And how this Jesus managed to get himself killed on the Passover eventhough Jesus was in the full custory and physical control of the Romans, and yet Jesus managed to get himself crucified on the cross and he died and was buried.
And of the miracle how Jesus of this unusual tribe rose from the dead on the third day and was seen alive after his resurrection by over 500 witnesses over a period of 40 days, according to that same TRANSCRIPT.
And so on and on. The sense of veracity and feel of real truth that a reader begins to acquire after one or after several readings of the entire Bible eventually make the reader realize that these are not just fantasical fictional statements which never really happened but convince the reader that this is a LEGAL TRANSCRIPT whose statements can be TRUSTED like statements made in the TRANSCRIPTS generated in a modern court of law.
doGon, have you ever read the Bible, and if so, how many times have you read the Bible entirely through?
Hebrews 4:2
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, because it was not mixed with faith in those of them who heard it.
Lastly, doGon, regarding your e-signature,
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think...question...be skeptical...be reasonable...be rational...
Eden here:
It IS thoughtfulness that eventually sweeps aside reasonable skepticism and adopts the most rational conclusion of all, that this God of the books of the Bible IS indeed the Living God who created the earth and all that is therein, and that this Jesus is the Son of God in a way MUCH GREATER than ANY spiritual experience that an Adamic religionist can experience by seeing and noting our full unity with the physical universe.
But you as a person would still die, enlightened and all, and have no more opportunity to know and to love God on a permanent basis, and for this Jesus came, to carry us over the chasm that our sins created, and Jesus dies on the cross for our sins, so that we may FREELY receive a NEW SPIRITUAL BODY like Jesus had. This is the great excitement and joy that now lies next ahead of us, and it would be a great shame to miss out on this TRANSCRIPTIONAL OFFER of eternal life since Jesus already paid for our sins by suffering severaly on the cross for us, so that we may be freed from the penaly of our sins and so that God can then move to God's mercy side and freely give us eternal life like Jesus had, with the same powers.
Not something to be missed out on, but it requires some reading of the Bible or listening to the Bible on tape of e-book DVD to fully understand that the Offer is real and, imminent too. It can't be too long now before it happens.
So yes, doGon,
think...question...be skeptical...be reasonable...and, above all, be rational...
I hope you will save yourself too, doGon.
Your friend in Christ, Eden
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Forever His
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What a wonderful thread! I have been taking a break from here and haven't met a lot of you yet. This topic has a real interest for me and so I felt that perhaps it's time to get involved once again.
DoGone wrote:
So, the four scenarios are....
1.) The first one (with all the IF's)
2.) God doesnt want everyone to believe
3.) God wants everyone to believe but doesnt have the power to make it so
4.) the christian God isnt real
Well... first of all it's really nice to meet you DoGone. I have been following your coments with an interest. You see... I was an athiest until I was 28 and I thought christians to be brainwashed and deceived and that it was all about money... I had little respect and no admiration for them. I was the buisnesman that you find described in Psalm 107 23-32 and God met me made Himself real in a way that completely changed my life. You see I was VERY self cenetered and very selfish back then and lived only for myself... If there is any reason to believe in a living God... then it would have to be that there is no explanation for what He has and is continuing to do in my heart and countless others who have gave their lives to Him.It is my joy to live for the good of others including many whom I will never meet on this earth.
Pertaining to point #2
The truth is that God wants to save everyone..... but... He leaves the decission to us ! This is clearly taught all the way through the scriptures including the most famous verse found in John 3:16 God so loved the world that He gave His on begotten son that whoseover believes in Him shall not perish... but have everlasting life... and to further make it even more clear we read....
2 Peter 3 :9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If you look and study the Exodus and the plagues it teaches us a lot about God's desire to show Himself in a "redemptive" way unto all who will look with an open heart. You see... Egypt was a stronghold for atheism and pharoah was it's spokesman... he said..." who is the Lord that I should obey his voice... I do not know the Lord nor will I let Israel go. " Pharoah denied the existence of God and presumed to usurp God's place on earth as his own... and to lord it over God's chosen people...
With that response to Moses request to let Israel go there began a showdown in which God began to show all [ over 1 million in Israel alone ] who were watching that the living God was real, that His powers were unlimited , and that He seeks to deliver his people from bondage. Each Plague was foretold by Moses and each plague was removed as Moses entreated the Lord. In the first plagues it appears that God was simply showing Himself to be real and more powerful than the Egyptian god's or anything the Egyptian's could atribute to natural causes. However... after making it very clear that He was real God then began to offer chances to escape the plagues through faith ... for example... plague 7 was hail. Moses fortold the exact time of the hail and warned all who believed to put their animals and slaves inside to protect them from the certain disaster. He warned them that they would loose everything left outside. Those who believed and exercised their faith were spared the destruction that came. And so it was with the tenth plague... those who believed and acted spared their firstborn's life and were rewarded. Sadly.... in light of the most powerful "evidence" the majority "choose" to hearden their hearts and not believe the clearest evidence that God was real. Their hardness of heart even led pharoah and his army to follow Israel into the very depths of the Red Sea to their own destruction... sadly... such is the destiny of all who choose to dis-believe in the light of clear "revelation"... sadly mans heart is still hard even today... yet God is not mocked ! What is man in light of God's presence? We are but dust!! He is eternal...
God does want everyone to believe and He reveals Himself in a thousand ways that only He could conceive . He made Himself real to me and has changed my heart forever... that is why I am Forever His ... Faith.... don't think that I have some kind of conjured up faith... I don't have faith... this is "not" something that I tried hard to believe and therefore it became real to me... God " revealed Himself to me " in such a way that was so real and powerfull that I choose not to have "hardness of heart" ... I have no idea how, or when God will reveal Himself to you but I do know this... He will in His own time, and way, and at a time that you likely least expect. He loves you to much to see you end up like the Egyptians who hardened their hearts against the clearest "revelation" of who He is ...I realize these words may seem like idle tales... I understand... I was there... right where you are now... but I will tell you this... there comes a time in everyones life when God will speak and convict you that you need to make a decission... a decission to follow Him.... or to turn away. You have to decide if you will open... or close your heart...
Rev. 3:20 Behold I stand at the door and knock... if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and sup with him and he with me.
The whole of the Bible stands or falls upon this one verse... We can talk a lot about this topic from a intelectual standpoint and those discussions are good... But some matters are best discussed from the heart... If you are correct in your assumptions and we are wrong.... where does that leave you? What have you gained? and what do you have to offer us in excange for the eternal life that God has promised us and sent His son to provide us? Jesus tomb is empty... yours will some day be full.... what then? What comfort do you have for your children ... your loved ones?
Just something to ponder...
Forever His
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doGon
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quote:
I don't think that it is reasonable for anyone to put his/her faith and trust in any god that has been constructed by human hands, as the idols of many ancient civilizations or the material things that many individuals seek and hoard and worship today. It is not reasonable to follow a religious set of doctrines and teachings that have initially been created and proclaimed by one "prophet", whether his name is Moses or Buddha or Aristotle or Mohammed or Paul or Rick Warren. The reports and teachings that the "prophets" and apostles wrote under the inspiration of God have been thoroughly tested and compared with known facts and the internal evidence that gives credibility to any writings.
It seems like you just keep telling yourself that your book (Bible) is not just 'another holy book' and that it really is true, and that there is evidence for this truth. This simply is not true. There are MANY things in the Bible that are contradictions, untruths, false-prophecies, bad science, etc...As well as these things are in the other holy books....Going back to the first part of what I quoted you from....
quote:
I don't think that it is reasonable for anyone to put his/her faith and trust in any god that has been constructed by human hands, as the idols of many ancient civilizations or the material things that many individuals seek and hoard and worship today
Did you ever consider that maybe Christianity falls under this category, as well as all the rest of the religions....? How do you know you're not just deluting yourself to this fact?...
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TB125
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DoGon,
You've asked me another question, which I think that I have answered several times before: quote:
how can you be so arrogant to think that your faith is right and true, and everyone else's, which is just as strong, you shrug off as lies and delusions?
I'll try to answer this question as personally and as clearly as I can. I have nothing to brag about or any superior knowledge about which to boast. My faith in God and the blessing of His grace and transforming Spirit in my life is a gift from God that I have humbly received as I have repented from my sins, including that of pride that I might claim for my own accomplishments.
The God that I trust (have faith in), worship, and serve with my life is the one God who has revealed His glory and His personal love for me in many many ways over and over again. The God that I trust and serve is the God who acts in the midst of the human situation. His acts and words of wise instructions and teachings have been witnessed and heard by thousands of others who have shared their reports with me.
These reports are contained in the Bible, which is the most amazing collection of documents in all of human history. These documents have been written by about 40 different individuals who come from different cultures and time periods. They have written their reports of God's revelation and instructions in three different languages, Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic over a period of about 1500 years. These documents have been subject to more critical tests and comparative studies than any documents that have ever been written. Yet they have been found to contain one basic message, the message of God's love for His human creatures. There are no errors of historic facts or contradictory teachings in all of these documents. The truth of these documents has been supported by archeological research and thorough textual and linguistic study. If you want to examine this topic a little more, read my statement on "The Bible" on my website: http://christianityetc.org/bible.php
I don't think that it is reasonable for anyone to put his/her faith and trust in any god that has been constructed by human hands, as the idols of many ancient civilizations or the material things that many individuals seek and hoard and worship today. It is not reasonable to follow a religious set of doctrines and teachings that have initially been created and proclaimed by one "prophet", whether his name is Moses or Buddha or Aristotle or Mohammed or Paul or Rick Warren. The reports and teachings that the "prophets" and apostles wrote under the inspiration of God have been thoroughly tested and compared with known facts and the internal evidence that gives credibility to any writings.
Matters of religion are not the only beliefs that that some people hold and proclaim in spite of the fact that the evidence that is suppose to support them is a collection of "lies" and "delusions". We've seen this displayed over and over again in political and commercial scandals that have involved many respected "leaders". Many people, including myself at times, are very good at justifying their own behavior and beliefs as long as they are in keeping with one's selfish desires even though this behavior and beliefs are nonsense that cannot be justified. This is part of the difference between mythology and biblical theology.
Sorry for this long answer to your question, but it can't be answered with a few simple sentences. I hope that this is helpful.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
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What about the faith that people of other religions have towards their god and beliefs? You reject all of these people's faith as blindly believing in something that is not true...I think the same as you do about those people, I just also think the same for you as well....Dont take offense to this question, because I dont mean any, but how can you be so arrogant to think that your faith is right and true, and everyone else's, which is just as strong, you shrug off as lies and delusions?
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TB125
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DoGon,
Faith is not irrational nonsense. It is a matter of personal experience in response to the God who has and does reveal Himself. It is not limited to or determined by conclusions that can be reached from scientific tests, as would be done in a laboratory. It is a response of trust in one, God, who has demonstrated His trustworthyness over and over again. It is a reasonable act in light of observable "evidence" as reported by Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel, whose books I have recommended to you. I have a statement on "What is Christian faith?", if you want to read it. It is here: http://christianityetc.org/faith.php Your understanding of "faith" is faulty, so your rejection of it is unreasonable. I would encourage you to reconsider some of your assumptions about faith. Don't close our discussion now. You're at a point where you can make some important discoveries.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
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Well, I don't really know where to take this now....It's me against your faith, which means end of discussion, because that is what faith is - a discussion-killer. I cannot say anything to disprove anyones faith of anything. If someone has faith that there is a magical invisible teapot orbiting around Mercury, there is nothing I can say to disprove that, even though the person who has faith in it has no evidence to back it....All I really have to say is that you should think critically about your faith, and why you have it, and that the people you think are following the 'wrong' religion have the same faith that you do. Maybe faith is not the right answer to believe in something... I have given up faith. If there is no actual, empirical evidence for something, there is no good reason to really believe it is true. This does not mean I have no hope or beliefs, just no faith. I have no need for faith.
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TB125
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DoGon,
You've asked me a couple of more questions that I'll try to answer from my own understanding of God's revelation. quote:
Do you think that maybe if you were born in, say Saudia Arabia, then looked around at the universe, still seeing evidence for a god, but the specific god you would see, would be Allah? The odds are very excellent that that's what you would see if born and raised in a middle eastern country. what are your thoughts on this?..
It is true that none of us have any choice in regard to our birth parents, which determines the racial and ethnic and cultural context for our childhood and early learning experiences. But God is not limited by this context in His efforts to reveal Himself to anyone who wants to know Him and live in a personal relationship with Him.
It is the context of one's racial and ethnic culture that is limited when God's glory is excluded from it by idolatry, secular humanism, religious philosophy, "new age" theology, and such man-made substitutes for the one real God.
The problem with Islam and Allah, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Zoroastrianism, or even Judaism, or any of the other "isms" that one might be exposed to is that they don't include the full revelation of God in Jesus. Jesus is the only person who died and rose again from the dead to redeem sinful rebels and bring them back into a personal relationship with God, their creator. If you want to consider this topic more fully, read my statement on "Why Jesus?" on my website: http://christianityetc.org/why_Jesus.php
No other religion or philosophy or system of human thought can replace the transforming glory of God that is revealed in Jesus. And the good news (the "gospel") of this glory is being proclaimed throughout the world in the languages of every ethnic and cultural group, even on the Internet. Some of these groups try to prevent Christians from spreading this gospel message through laws against it and persecution against those who do try to tell others about Jesus, but God's revelation in Jesus is not going to be excluded from the human situation today. Several other members of this forum have tried to point this out to you in their comments regarding the current events that are taking place with the nation of Israel and associated scriptures.
The Devil doesn't care where you or I (or anyone else) was born. He will do everything that he can to keep us from Jesus, from learning about Him, from accepting His grace and love by repentance and faith, and from worshipping Him.
God is waiting to give you a full revelation of His glory in Jesus. You have no excuse for closing Him out of your life. Once again I invite you to open your heart and mind to Jesus. Keep in touch.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
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Thank you for your answer, TB125...
Do you think that maybe if you were born in, say Saudia Arabia, then looked around at the universe, still seeing evidence for a god, but the specific god you would see, would be Allah? The odds are very excellent that that's what you would see if born and raised in a middle eastern country. what are your thoughts on this?..
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TB125
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DoGon,
You have asked me another question: quote:
What I dont understand is how you can look around, see a god, and then actually identify which god created it., and actually give personality traits, and a theology to this God....please answer that for me.
I'll try to answer this for you. Part of my understanding of God's existence and His nature and personality and doctrines about His will and love for humanity comes from his revelation in creation, as with the ordered design of our complex universe and world and life forms. Other parts of my understanding, as well as that of other Christians on this board, come from God's revelation in the history of Israel and the teachings of all of the prophets that are recorded in the Old Testament. Other parts of this understanding come from God's revelation to the disciples and people of Galilee and Judah in Jesus and the teachings of the apostles, including Paul, and the faith and practice of the early Christian believers that is given in the New Testament. Other parts of this understanding come from God's ongoing revelation in the history of His family of believers, the Church. And other parts of this understanding come from God's personal revelation to me as He has forgiven me of my sins and transformed my life through the indwelling power of His Holy Spirit.
God's revelation is not contained in one spectacular event that will give you a message in the stars or a private vision or some miraculous event in history that you can read about.
It comes through an on-going relationship of faith and trust in Him. He has started this relationship with you in your earlier Christian experience with Him. For some reason you have rejected that, dismissed His revelation in the Bible, and continue to discount the testimonies and instructions of numerous believers on this forum. This on-going dialogue that some of us are having with you is God's on-going effort to reveal more of Himself to you. Don't close your eyes and your mind to Him and the glory of His love for you. Take a closer look at Jesus; read the Gospel of John with some willingness to be open to the glory of God that was revealed to these early disciples as they spent time with Jesus, considered His words of wisdom to them, observed His miraculous powers, watched Him die, and experienced His resurrected living presence with them. Jesus is knocking on the door of your heart and mind. Are you willing to open it to Him? If you do, many of us will help you to get to know Him in a real way that can transform your life and give you some assurance of God's existence and personal love for you. God is waiting to bless you, but you have to repent and seek Him. Let's keep focused on this personal matter between you and God. Ok?
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
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A few things about the Matthew 24 excerpt. some have nothing to do with the topic of Jesus coming back I know, but maybe you guys can address some of them anyways...
quote:
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give **** in those days!
Woe unto pregnant and nursing women?...huh?
quote:
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders ; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
How will you know when the 'real Christ' has come?....here is Acts 2:22: Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know
quote:
Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light , and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Just thought this was funny, since the moon doesnt give off light...
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Kindgo
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Mat 24:1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give **** in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 ¶ But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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