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Author Topic: Christians and Defense
J4Jesus
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thanks alot, yea i know what those verses say


but God also told moses
"I will have Mercy on Whom I please"

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becauseHElives
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Hello J,

Yahweh has told every person, personally in His Word that you do not have to fear,

You don't have to fear sickness, disease, Satan, man’s wrath, or anything else that can be named,

That is what Salvation is all about…

Philippians 4:7
KJV: And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.


2 Timothy 1:7 “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” Thus we see “spirit of fear” does not come from God.


In 1 John 4:18, “There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.”

In Isaiah 41:10, “Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.”

in Daniel 10:12, “Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.”

In Mat 10:31, “Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.”

Bless you J keep the word of Yahweh ever before your eyes and a healthy fear (respect) for Yahweh and He will guide your footsteps all the day of your life till you stand before Him in that day you are called to give an account of your days on this earth.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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J4Jesus
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Faith is God telling you personally that He will Protect you and all you have to do is agree and believe, but if He doesn't tell you that, then there's gonna be some fear.
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becauseHElives
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It has nothing to do with how safe the culture you live in is.

Conscientious objector
noun
One who on the basis of religious or moral principles refuses to bear arms or participate in military service.
From the definition of the term “Conscientious objector” I can not be one because the definition applies only to military service; I believe the principle extendeds so much farther than military service.


Mat 5:38¶Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

Mat 5:39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Mat 5:40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have [thy] cloke also.

Mat 5:41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Mat 5:42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Mat 5:43¶Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Mat 5:44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 5:46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Mat 5:47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?

Mat 5:48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Please show me the principle of violent force against the enemy of the child of Yahweh in scripture.

The only principle of violence I see in scripture is violence in prayer,
Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. ...

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Eden
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Hi, becauseHElives. I tend to find your position somewhat theoretical. My reaction to you saying that for Christians it is "not the gun, not tanks", is, "I wonder how becauseHElives would react IF his house was burglarized or IF there was a home invasion.

Now, presumably, becauseHE... is also saying that "because he is a Christian", that is not going to happen to him; God will protect his home from burglary and home invasion.

But there have been plenty of bornagain believing Christians whose homes have been burglarized. Christians have served in wars and it "was them or the other guy".

Or are you proposing that Christians are or should be "conscientious objectors"?

Now, it appears from the scriptures that Jesus sent out His disciples by twos to preach the kingdom of God, without knapsacks and without swords, and I had thought it was because Jesus was protecting them WHILE He was in Israel.

However, if that were the case, then one could say that Jesus is also protecting them AFTER His resurrection and ascension to heaven.

On the other hand, when Jesus was in Israel, EVERYONE who came to Him was healed, but I have seen (perhaps wrongly) that many people in the earth HAVE PRAYED for healing while Jesus in heaven but they have NOT been healed.

The point I'm making is, did the disciples have the same protection from Jesus AFTER Jesus's ascension to heaven?

For someone as convinced as the Damascus-road-convinced Paul, he could probably do without weapons and rely wholly on Jesus in heaven.

But for the average bornagain Christian today, is that realistic? I mean, in the United States we have a strong police force and enforced laws and thus have "enough safety not to have to carry weapons".

But I would be surprised if in the days BEFORE such strong police forces and enforced laws, even as in some countries today still, so to speak "all the Christians wear NO WEAPON" and "all the non-Christians wear A WEAPON". I don't think that happened, do you?

So unless you referred to being a "conscientious objector", part of your seeming assertion that, as it were, "Christians don't need weapons" is really based on how safe the culture is that the Christian lives in, is it not?

Be blessed.

Eden

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becauseHElives
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Hello David, I have thought and prayed over this statement....

quote:
It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes a war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions of Jews would have been killed? If the Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African Americans have had to suffer as slaves? We must all remember to base our beliefs of the Bible, not on our emotions (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

World War II and the Civil War are not good works spoken of in 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Jesus is not a pacifist ?

Pacifist - adjective
Inclined or disposed to peace

The noun pacifist has one meaning:
Meaning #1: someone opposed to violence as a means of settling disputes


quote:
If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions of Jews would have been killed? If the Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African Americans have had to suffer as slaves?
If we are going to “if”
Let us “if” with the word of Yahweh.


2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV: If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

A question to ponder….

Is there more power in the armies of man to defeat evil?

Or

Is there more power in the prayers of the righteous that put their Faith in Yeshua?

Humanism is a deceitful enemy. It has many faces.

1. Seeing the multitudes, he went up onto the mountain. When he had sat down, his disciples came to him.

2 He opened his mouth and taught them, saying,

3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.

10 Blessed are those who have been persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

11 "Blessed are you when people reproach you, persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven. For that is how they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

13 "You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost its flavor, with what will it be salted? It is then good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.

14 You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden.

15 Neither do you light a lamp, and put it under a measuring basket, but on a stand; and it shines to all who are in the house.

16 Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.


Yeshua is a pacifist?

And we live in a dispensation where prayer and fasting are the weapons’ of Yahweh choice for His children, not guns, tanks, planes, ships, and other weapons of destruction.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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becauseHElives
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Hello Brian,

2 different words used in scripture for fear

Fear of the Lord ( yir'ah )
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/3/1160443256-1263.html

Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do [his commandments]: his praise endureth for ever.

Fear of what man may do or Satan may do against the child of Faith ( yare' )

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1160443376-9231.html#10

Isa 41:10Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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BrianGrass1234
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Fear is the opposite of Faith!

But aren't we supposed to fear God? [Big Grin]
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becauseHElives
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Fear is the opposite of Faith!

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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J4Jesus
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how is fear against Jesus' nature? i'm not disagreeing, i'd just like to know because i'm afraid of everyting.
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becauseHElives
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It takes fear or hate to take the life of another human individual!

Both actions are against the nature of Yeshua.


"You must not murder." (Exodus 20:13)
One thing I want you to see right away about this commandment is that it does not forbid all killing whatsoever (and therefore the older translations that say, "Thou shalt not kill" are incorrect). The Hebrew word translated as "kill" would be better translated as "murder" (ratzach), which means the taking of another human life in a maliciously premeditated manner, or as the result of gross negligence (i.e., manslaughter).

But the child of Yahweh is under a higher law than the law of the land, the born again believer is even under a higher Law than the ‘Ten Commandments”

The Christian is under the Royal Law of Love.

Under the Old Covenant Law it was breaking Yahweh’s Law to murder someone, but now Yeshua has raised the standard of moral action.

1Jo 3:14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.
1Jo 3:15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 3:16¶Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren.

Let’s look at war between nations …

America verses Germany, do both side have Christians (maybe) now they are shooting at each other, is there a chance one Christian will kill another Christian?

How about America verse a Moslem Nation, is it OK to send the Moslems to hell in the name of peace?

The Christian is under a higher Law….

To do good to those that would hurt, kill, robe, rape, molest, or do you any harm (if you are a child of Yahweh).

No one wants to really trust Yahweh the Father and trust our lives are completely in His hands.

When trouble arises it easier to grab the gun, than to fall to our knees and pray for our enemies’. Trust that nothing can happen to the individual whose trust in Yahweh.
Isn’t it funny, how many people quote …

Jhn 10:28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

Do they really believe that?

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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ahar
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I think in the question of self defence, we must remember that we are commanded to abide by the laws of the country that we live in. I'm not sure what the laws are in the US, but the UK has quite strict laws on what you can and can't do.

That isn't to say they it gives us the authority to do everythin up to the point of law. I don't think I would define murder in the way that David has set it out. In self defence terms, if you are attacked and there is a way out that means someone does not die then that surely is a better way than someone's death.

Take an example where you are approached in the street by someone with a knife and you have a gun. You can either hand over your wallet or pull the gun and shoot the person. You could easily argue that you were justified in your action as the person had a knife and wanted to do you harm. You still have your wallet, but somone is now dead. That someone is unlikely to be a christian, and now they never will be - for the sake of your wallet.

There are situations where you may have to take extreme action but you have to weigh up the options - when you strike to kill to save your own life you are making the judgement that your life is more important than the other person's. For an atheist this is a logical decision as their life is ALL they have. As chrisians, we have far more than that - we believe we are saved and death does not have a hold on us. That must change the judgement on whose life is worth more.

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Cheers

Andy

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J4Jesus
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one word...Samson
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BrianGrass1234
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Thanks, David. What you said makes sense and you were able to back it with scripture. That is what I was looking for.
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KnowHim
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Question: "What does the Bible say about self-defense?"

Answer: Without close study, the Bible can seem to give conflicting instructions on this subject. There are numerous passages that speak of Christians being pacifistic (Proverbs 25:21,22; Matthew 5:39; Romans 12:17). And yet there are many passages that talk about war and violence that God approves of. Such as David slaying Goliath (1 Samuel 17). Not to mention the fact that God commanded the Israelites to completely destroy everyone and everything in the promised land! So what is the conclusion? Is God for violence or not?

As with many questions in our lives, I believe it all has to do with wisdom, understanding, and tact. For instance, in the Luke 22 passage stated above in the question, Jesus does tell his disciples to get a sword. Jesus knew that now was the time when Jesus would be threatened (and later killed) and his followers would be threatened as well. Jesus was giving approval of the fact that one has the right to defend himself. Now just a few verses later we see Jesus being arrested and Peter takes a sword and cuts off someone’s ear. Jesus rebukes him for that act. Why? Peter was trying to stop something that Jesus had been telling His disciples was in fact going to happen. In other words, Peter was acting unwisely in the situation. He was trying to stop something that was not supposed to be stopped. We must be wise when to fight and when not to.

As far as fighting when one’s life or property is threatened, there is not a whole lot in the Bible concerning this. Exodus 22 does show quite a bit about God’s attitude towards self-defense. Let’s look at Exodus 22:2-3. "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; but if it happens after sunrise, he is guilty of bloodshed. A thief must certainly make restitution, but if he has nothing, he must be sold to pay for his theft.” Obviously here we see that when a thief breaks into someone’s house at night and that person defends his home and slays the thief, God does not hold that death over the defender’s head. However, God does not wish for anyone to take law into his or her own hands. This is why it is said that if a thief is struck down during the daylight the defender is guilty of bloodshed. Now this is speaking of thievery not an attack, I would believe that if the thief were to attack the defender even during the day, that man would be justified to defend himself.

It all has to do with wisdom, understanding, and tact. In my karate class one of our principles is this: “Restrain your physical abilities by spiritual attainment”. This is a fancy way of saying that since one has the ability to bring great harm doesn’t mean he or she needs to use it. Just because I can break someone’s arm, doesn’t mean I need to use that ability. Just because we have a gun doesn’t mean we need to fire on someone who breaks into the home.

http://www.gotquestions.org/self-defense.html

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KnowHim
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Many people make the mistake of believing the Bible says, “You shall not kill,” and seek to apply this command to war. However, the Bible actually says, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). The Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice.” God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12; 21:15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but rather only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm is by going to war with them.

War is a terrible thing! War is always the result of sin (Romans 3:10-18). In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to: “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). See also Deuteronomy 20:16-17, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Exodus 17:16 proclaims, “He said, "For hands were lifted up to the throne of the LORD. The LORD will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation." Also, 1 Samuel 15:18, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” So, obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

Jesus’ Second Coming also is exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 proclaims, “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.”

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes a war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions of Jews would have been killed? If the Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African Americans have had to suffer as slaves? We must all remember to base our beliefs of the Bible, not on our emotions (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “there is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Some wars are more “just” than others, but all wars are ultimately the result of sin. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to the conflict, and praying for minimum casualties – on both sides of the conflict (Philippians 4:6-7).

http://www.gotquestions.org/war-Bible.html

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Thunderz7
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Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

In scripture sometimes YHWH delivers His people from enemies,
sometimes He tells them to deliver themselves.
There is no deliverance if He is not with them, but sometimes they fight themselves, as He instructs them.
YHWH gave them the land of promise, He did some of it Himself and instructed them to do some.

1 Samuel 13:19 Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:

The Phillilstines didn't want YHWH's people armed.
We have enemies today who don't want us armed.
The U.N., Islam, and many others, would like nothing more than to ban weapons from the American public.

I have a friend who, this week, was attacked by five dogs while running.
If someone had not come by she would surely be dead now.
If she had been carrying a small firearm, a knife, or even mace, to protect herself from attackers, it would have made a huge difference in the number of puncture wounds and broken bones.
The same is the case if the attackers were human.

Speak His WORD first,
if the enemy refuses to respond to the WORD,
go to battle singing His praises with all your might and with every resource at hand.

1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee.
Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

David, a man of war, a man of blood, a man after God's own heart.
Goliath and the Philistines were terrorizing Israel.
YHWH guided the stone to the head of Goliath,
but David had to sling it.
He may call you to pull the trigger, so He can guide a bullet to stop a Muslem terrorist.

Luke 22:49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.

Jesus had told the disciples if they had no sword to sell even their clothes to get one.
When Jesus was arrested from 49-51. four things happened.
49-(1)disciples asked if they should strike with their swords.
50-(2)Peter struck, we know from John's account that it was Peter.
51-(3)Only after Peter struck did Jesus answer and stop the conflict.
(4)Jesus healed the ear, that couldn't have been healed had Peter not struck.


T7

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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
I friend related this story to me, of a dream he had….

I was awaken by a noise in my front yard, I quickly arose went to see what the noise was.
I saw a car 3 men were getting out the car parked at the curb, they had guns in their hands coming toward my house. Fearing for the lives of my wife and children, I went to the closet and got my gun. Running back to the window, I shouted “stop or I will shoot.” They charged toward the house and I shot and killed all three men.

Then suddenly the dream started all over…

I was awaken by a noise in my front yard, I quickly arose went to see what the noise was.
I saw thousands of men were getting out of vehicles on the street, they all had guns in their hands coming toward my house. I immediately cried out “GOD HELP ME!”

Then I heard God say so plainly, these words…

Why didn’t you call me the first time.

Do we trust God with the big thing; like our eternal home, but not trust Him in the little things; like our jobs , our finances, and the care of our physical lives?

What are we saying if we don't trust God in the little things and the big things?

I could so relate to this dream. This used to be my life. This is not a problem of lack of faith in GOD.. it is a problem of too much faith in self.

We handle those things ourself that we think we can and then when we cant we call on GOd.

There is a song that talks about a young man coming home from the war and he has lost a leg in the war and he wants to run, and he is training, and the song says... when you find there is no one to lean on that is when you find yourself.

And I laughed and said, "Yeah, and when you find that it is IMPOSSIBLE to lean on one's self, it is then that you find GOD!

This world so gears us... even brain washes us to trust self. I did not have a life as a young person growing up that I could trust the adults in my life and I learned very young how to take care of myself. Perhaps the most difficult thing in my walk were the years of GOD showing me that I cant trust myself or take care of myself and that I need him even for the most basic things related to exisitance... we cant take a breath that HE does not allow it.

The peson in the dream that can defend his family against the one or two invaders thinks he can save himself if the enemy is one or two men. The reality is that not one of us passes from this life that GOD does not ordain the exact moment of our passing. So we ought to trust him in the first place.

I guess, that since we still own guns and I have often said that I could not shoot to protect myself, but that I would shoot to protect my children or my husband, I had ought to pray about this ey?

Thanks Dale for sharing and giving me something to think and pray about.

God Bless & Keep you
Linda

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becauseHElives
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"be wise as serpents and harmless as doves,"

Yeshua did say it and He did mean what He said...

The child of Yahweh with the prayer life Yeshua has commanded the child of Yahweh to have, does not need carnal weapons such as guns and knives.

The problem is most who call themselves Christians are not willing to have that kind of prayer life.

10 to 15 minutes a day praying is a big deal to most so called Christians.

Peter’s failure when it came to the misuse of the sword was before Pentecost; Peter’s denial of Yeshua was before Pentecost.

In the Garden Yeshua warned the disciples to pray, but none at that time understood.

After Pentecost, they all understood the power of prayer. Power through prayer to be able to live the life of Yeshua.

Many are deceived; they do not understand what it truly means to be a Christian.

Laying down your life for the Kingdom of Yahweh and those around you, this is what Yeshua did and it is what those that are saved will do also.

Prayer to the Christian is like air is for breathing to the natural body.

Most Christians are dying for a breath of air (prayer).

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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wparr
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I'm TOTALLY with becauseHElives on this (as usually I am)

What did Y'shua tell Peter when they came to arrest Him and Peter pulled out his weapon to defend his Lord?

[/B] Joh 18:11
So Jesus said to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?"



What did Y'shua DO to the man Peter struck?

Luk 22:51
But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him.



Did you see Stephen try to defend himself when he was falsely accused and stoned TO DEATH??

[B]Act 7:58-60
(58) When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
(59) They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"
(60) Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.


Are you going to say to Yahweh
"Not my will, but YOURS be done"

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Eden
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Hi, BrianGrass1234. Yeah, have the good samaritan (becauseHElives) come by just when the robbers were nailing the guy; they would have robbed becauseHelives too if he had no sword with him. Instead, becauseHElives could have fought the robbers in God's strength and have routed them down the road to Jericho.

Good point, BG1234.

Be blessed.

Eden

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BrianGrass1234
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I just wish in the Good samaritan story, the samaritan had come along while guy was getting robbed and beat down. Then I would have a good answer.
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Eden
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Hi, BrianGrass1234. An interesting subject, by the way.

The Living God of Israel is no sissy. God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

In a garden, if one wants to plant roses, one has to first pull up the weeds. When it comes to human character, evil traits will perpetuate themselves forever in the earth, unless they are rooted up.

Jesus did also say, "be wise as serpents and harmless as doves," but in a lot of countries in the world that also still means "don't leave your dagger at home; that's why God gave you a dagger, to use it."

When a man comes out of the bush to kill us, I think God expects me to use that dagger, especially if that man is not a bornagain Christian and I am.

Would God spare a good servant of His rather than a non-servant? But I have seen good bornagain Christians die in accidents, though.

Does God destroy the righteous with the wicked? Not in the end, but in the meantime, God tells me to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves", and for the rest, to "use my gun if I have too."

For the record, I don't own a gun or dagger because I live in a country where having a gun in my belt is not necessary at this time, may I thank the Lord for that great protection?

Be blessed.

Eden

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Eden
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Hi, becauseHElives. You said:

I take the position, that if Yahweh is my Lord, and nothing that happen to me, can not happen unless it is His will. Then why would I think I could stop someone with physical force.

Eden here:

But how does the Lord work on earth to protect me? He protects me on earth by making sure that I have the best dagger, by making sure that “I lack nothing” for the work in His vineyard, which today is the world. God protects me by sending me, as His bornagain adopted child, by sending me everything I need, just on time.

But what help God will send will be physical help. Take for instance the 3 Christian women who rode this year from Amsterdam to Rome on their bicycles. Their weblog was called “Riding with God”. One of them had however a major breakdown of her bike in the middle of some tiny town, and it turned out that she had broken down in front the house of a lifelong bicycle mechanic who promptly brought his tools out and had her bike fixed in a half an hour.

THAT is how God protects us, by providential opportunities like that. Likewise if we needed two swords, God would make sure I get the best sword available in town to purchase and God makes sure I make it over there providentially.

I don’t think God puts us in a position to say to robbers and thieves, “sirs, God is present to protect me; I have not even brought a dagger and I have a lot of gold with me, and I’m all by myself and my God.”

I think someone like Paul could operate without any weapons and say that to thieves and robbers, but the more average bornagain Christian who was never on the road to Damascus may still have to operate with some weapons when the lion comes at him, it’s probably a good idea to shoot it dead. God will help me be accurate though and He got me a good gun.

Be blessed.

Eden

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BrianGrass1234
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So how about when Jesus made a whip and drove people out of the temple. That is using force to defend the temple isn't.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
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Hey Brian,

Though problems seem insurmountable to us, we have an incredibly capable God who reminds us, "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh; is anything too hard for Me?"

I take the position, that if Yahweh is my Lord, and nothing that happen to me, can not happen unless it is His will. Then why would I think I could stop someone with physical force.

Prayer and the word of Yahweh is to be our weapon against any evil.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

I friend related this story to me, of a dream he had….

I was awaken by a noise in my front yard, I quickly arose went to see what the noise was.
I saw a car 3 men were getting out the car parked at the curb, they had guns in their hands coming toward my house. Fearing for the lives of my wife and children, I went to the closet and got my gun. Running back to the window, I shouted “stop or I will shoot.” They charged toward the house and I shot and killed all three men.

Then suddenly the dream started all over…

I was awaken by a noise in my front yard, I quickly arose went to see what the noise was.
I saw thousands of men were getting out of vehicles on the street, they all had guns in their hands coming toward my house. I immediately cried out “GOD HELP ME!”

Then I heard God say so plainly, these words…

Why didn’t you call me the first time.

Do we trust God with the big thing; like our eternal home, but not trust Him in the little things; like our jobs , our finances, and the care of our physical lives?

What are we saying if we don't trust God in the little things and the big things?


quote:
Like for example, letting myself be murdered, but then I wouldn't be there for my family any more. I don't think I could allow my daughter and wife to have to go on without me and deal with that pain.
My wife’s dad died at 35 years old with a heart attack. He was an ex marine 6’2 with no fat (185 lbs.) very active man, in what looked to be perfect health. Without any symptoms died in an instant with no warning to the family. ( we have no control of when our time is up and we will be called to eternity. You just have to put yourself and your family in Yahweh’s hands if you’re his child.
quote:
And then how about defending someone else.
I personally have stood on the behave of another person with a shot gun point at my head, the person telling me that the problem was none of my concern (a lady in our church husband was beating her, he had put her in the hospital several times, she had called me ask me to come over and please help, he was drunk and had started beating her again.)

When I had knock on the door he answered, greeted me with the shot gun, putting it to my head telling me to leave. I told him I could not leave, I could not let him beat Dorothy (his wife) I had to stop him. I walked into the house, he continued to hold the gun toward my head and for the next 45 minutes I told him (Butch Leblanc) about the love of Jesus/Yeshua. He broke and begin to cry and I lead him to the Lord.

If you know your saved and going to have eternal life, why defend this mortal life.

Why take a chance on sending someone to hell you know is lost?

To live is Christ to die is gain!

What does it matter? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed. I rejoice in this, yes, and will rejoice.

For I know that this will turn out to my salvation, through your supplication and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will in no way be disappointed, but with all boldness, as always, now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life, or by death.

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. (Philippians 1:18-21)

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BrianGrass1234
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I was wondering what peoples opinions for christians and defense, whether self defense or in defense for others. I am talking about the use of violence in defense. If and when would it be acceptable. I know how Jesus spoke about turning the other cheek and if someone is robbing you give them what they want. And I have really no problem with that till it starts to effect others. Like for example, letting myself be murdered, but then I wouldn't be there for my family any more. I don't think I could allow my daughter and wife to have to go on without me and deal with that pain. And then how about defending someone else. If I saw someone else being robbed should I do all I can to defend that other person.

Also if you can give biblical support for you opinions that would be great.

Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator


 
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