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Topic: Was this unprofitable servant ever a bornagain Christian?
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KnowHim
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For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude 1:4 through Jude 1:7 (KJV)
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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Hi, helpforhm:
You're absolutely right, my apology. I had written this to you:
quote from Eden to helpforhm:
IOW, what bothered me about your post was that you made yourself to be the bornagain spirit, when you are the soul.
from help:
I dont know where you got this (born again spirit)I believe that the scripture says that we are born again new creatures, who are born of the Spirit.
from Eden: You're absolutely right. I reviewed your whole post and I must have misread because nowhere did you say or imply that you were the spirit.
Again, sorry about that.
Be blessed.
Eden
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J4Jesus
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From another forum.
was this person ever born again:
I was “saved” at 20 years old, at a time when it seemed my life was crashing down around me. I was still in college, in a troubled marriage with a child on the way, and I was drinking too much. With all the pressure on me, the promise of a light burden and an easy yoke sounded pretty good, and for a while it was. I can’t deny that my conversion changed a lot of things for the better. I stopped drinking… except for a few times of “backsliding.” My family situation improved. I was a super strict fundamental Baptist. King James Version only, hell and brimstone, passing out tracts, attending every service (I even missed my college graduation because the heathens at UCLA had it on a Sunday!)
At some point, doubts started creeping up. Why couldn’t I get the victory over certain sins? I struggled, and prayed, and cried, and prayed some more, and it seems like I was just getting worse. The thoughts that I was having were worse than before I was “saved.” I think that concentrating on getting rid of them just drove me crazy and made my thoughts much darker than ever. I was literally driving myself crazy with the commandment about lust. If I lust after a woman and lust equals adultery, and adulterers are on the list of those who won’t inherit the kingdom of God, then I can’t be saved, right? It’s right there in the book! Then there was the whole question about how to be saved. There are so many opinions within Christianity on this most basic doctrine! Of course, I dismissed other Christian sects as unbelievers, so anyone who didn’t agree with my group’s definition of how to be saved didn’t have the guiding of the Holy Spirit and therefore knew nothing about the Bible, so I could dismiss their views, but even within my very narrow, KJV-only, independent fundamental Baptist group, there was disagreement! How can this be since Jesus said the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth? Some said you had to repent. Others said repentance was a work, you just had to believe. And you know what I found? They were both right. How the hell are you supposed to tell when the Bible says one thing in one place and another thing somewhere else? I asked my pastor (a great guy and a good friend of mine) and he said all the different explanations are just because salvation is such an intricate, complex thing that words can’t fully express what happens when you’re saved. I’ve heard that if you can’t explain a complex subject in simple language, then you don’t really understand it yourself. So does that mean God himself doesn’t really understand salvation?
Another issue was the antisocial aspect of Christianity. The belief that your co-workers, relatives, and random people walking down the street are all going to hell does something to you. At least, it did to me. I can't even explain it all, it just deeply affected me in an extremely negative way. I'm no psychiatrist (though I probably need one now) but combine this with the whole flesh vs. the spirit thing and I literally felt like I had multiple psychoses, including a split personality disorder.
Then there was the concept of hell. I passed out tracts and witnessed via e-mail and the internet a lot, but looking back on it, I realize that I could never bring myself to tell a person face to face that they deserve to go to hell. I wouldn’t have been able to do it without blushing. I would sometimes think about my grandpa who died when I was a boy. Did I really believe that he was suffering in hell? My resolve would sometimes strengthen and I would tell myself that he had his chance and was getting what he deserved, but I couldn’t convince myself. I also asked my pastor about it, and his explanation was that he doesn’t understand the concept of hell either, but that if we could see sin from God’s perspective we would realize how bad it is and why people deserve hell. If that’s true, I don’t want to see it from God’s perspective! I remember thinking that God needs to get over himself, he’s taking this waaaay to seriously. Of course if you dismiss hell you have to dismiss the Bible, or at least the New Testament, because it’s everywhere.
All of this put me on the verge of giving up my faith about a year ago, but those passages in Hebrews 6 and 10 kept me hanging on a little while longer. I was terrified at the thought of hell. Of course, those in my fundy camp would say you can’t lose your salvation, but Hebrews 6 says, oh yes you can! I also asked my pastor about this, and he said he didn’t know who Hebrews 6 was talking about, but he was sure it wasn’t me. I’ve never heard anyone in the “once saved always saved” camp be able to explain this passage. Not one.
In the last year, I’ve prayed but despite honest, believing prayers for wisdom and understanding, I never got peace about any of this. So **** it, I give up. Sorry for the gratuitous expletive, but I’ve got 10 years of swearing to make up for.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
IOW, what bothered me about your post was that you made yourself to be the bornagain spirit, when you are the soul.
I dont know where you got this (born again spirit)I believe that the scripture says that we are born again new creatures, who are born of the Spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
I am a living soul. I live in a mortal body. When this mortal body is sown into the ground, my spirit will return to God from which it came as all spirits of men do.
However, because my living soul is put on the immortality of Christ, my soul and my spiritual body will be redeemed, and rise from death to be with the LORD for eternity.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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yahsway
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Roman 6:15-23
"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly Not! (verse 15) please read the rest of this chapter.
Paul responds to the supposition that grace encourages or permits sin. He uses the analogy of slavery to combat a casual attitude toward sin and issues a stern warning of the serious consequences of yeilding to sin.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Eden
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Hi, helpforhomeschoolers:
from helpforh:
I have sin. I do not sin. When I do what I want not to do it is not me, but sin in my members.
from Eden:
In your main post above, you seem to set forth the idea that your spirit is bornagain, but that the flesh is accustomed to sin, so that when you, helpforhm, stop paying attention 24/7 to walking in your bornagain spirit (or listening to the Holy Spirit), then you join with your flesh again and commit sin, like yelling at your daughters, or whatever else, right?
So let me ask you, helpforhm, who is the you in the above paragraph who either walks both the Spirit and the flesh (if only Jesus so far has done 24/7)? That you who is doing the choosing, is the real you, right?
I agree that as a bornagain sinner, having interest and access to the Word and to the Holy Spirit because of what Jesus did on the cross for us, that we will most likely sin a little less.
But I emphasize the "little" because it has been my experience thus far since becoming a bornagain Christian, that, eventhough I and we are saved, I am not a whole lot nicer than I used to be.
I'm a little sweeter and kinder, but I can still be grouchy while working in the world, or whatever, or cuss me out someone on the road, just like I used to do.
When I say "bornagain" Christians, I mean by bornagain only those persons who have personally accepted God's free gift of eternal life through the death that Jesus sufferd on the cross for us, and I am not talking about people who are simply born into a Protestant or Catholic family without ever having accepted Jesus personally for their own sin.
There are a lot of carnal bornagain Christians and maybe they never show fruit of the Spirit thru lack of reading the Word and lack of listening to the Spirit.
But those bornagain Christians who are reading the Word and listening as often as they can to the Holy Spirit whose access Jesus earned for us, but probably no one in this natural body riddled with sin can do 24/7 guided only by what the Spirit says.
I do think that only Jesus has been able to do 24/7 on earth so far, and I also think that we bornagain Christians can not do it 24/7.
In fact, I think, if you don't mind, that most bornagain Christians today only achieve a minor betterment in their character.
Part of this may be because in Jesus was the fullness of the Godhead or Spirit, but in us bornagain Christians, the gifts (or talents) of the Spirit are divided up among many which in Jesus were in one Person.
But then, Jesus had a body like the first Adam since Jesus was the last Adam, so that Jesus did not have a body like our body.
Our Adamic body has sin in it, but His second or last Adamic body had no sin in it, as Jesus was born of Mary by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit onto Mary, so that the Holy One who was born of her could become The Son of God.
Overall, helpforhm, it seems to me easier to just say that "I am a sinner saved by grace" and jump through the hoops that you jumped through in your last post above.
Forgive me if I myself am managing here to wax longwinded, like you.
To wrap this up, I said above to helpforhm:
In your main post above, you seem to set forth the idea that your spirit is bornagain, but that the flesh is accustomed to sinning, so that when you, helpforhm, stop paying attention 24/7 to walking in your bornagain spirit (or listening to the Holy Spirit), you get back into the flesh and you join with your flesh to commit sin again, like yelling at your daughters, or whatever else.
So let me ask you, helpforhm, who is the you in the above paragraph who does the choosing of either walking in the Spirit or in the flesh? That you who does the choosing is the real you, right?
You are the soul and not the spirit. You have a spirit, but you are the soul, which can either look to the Spirit (but not 24/7) or to the flesh (but as bornagain Christian, not 24/7 in the flesh either anymore).
Dear helpforhm, what bothered me about your main post was that you almost made yourself not responsible anymore for your sins now that you are a bornagain spirit, when in fact your spirit is bornagain, but you are the soul and not the spirit and the soul does the choosing, and not the Spirit or the flesh.
IOW, what bothered me about your post was that you made yourself to be the bornagain spirit, when you are the soul.
Be blessed. So help me God, I will never complain about length of posts again.
Eden
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yahsway
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Proverbs 14:14
The backslider in heart will be filled with his own ways, But a good man will be satisfied from above.
If we are born-again, born from above, we will not want to sin for it is not us who lives but Christ that lives thru us. Our hearts will not be filled with satisfying our own fleshly desires, but rather we die to ourselves daily, taking up our own cross, and yeilding all that we are/have over to His will and desire for our lives.
One who is a backslider can be forgiven. For if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us.
"He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." (1 John 2:6)
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J4Jesus
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what about Backsliders?
do they want to sin?
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Hi Eden:
I have sin it is with me as long as I am in this body.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
This body is not going on into eternal life.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
The sin in this body will one day destroy it.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
It is preserved blameless unto the judgement.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
At that time, I will give account for the works that were done it. The works that are of the flesh will be destroyed, their recompense is the death of the body.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
I am not my mortal body. I have a body. I am a brand plucked from the fire.
1 Cointhians 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Eventually, those dead works will be destoryed with the earth
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
I am born again .. born of God. I do not and cannot commit sin.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Sin is transgression of the law.
1John 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: [u]whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.[/u]
Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous
I have sin. I do not sin. When I do what I want not to do it is not me, but sin in my members.
Romans 8:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then [u]with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.[/u]
1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
I realize this is longer than you wanted. I realize it is probably more scripture than you wanted. But this is important.
We need to understand a couple things her.
The carnal man.. the unreginerate man... can do nothing but sin. It is both his desire and his action.
The born again man can do one of two things. He can walk in the Spirit or he can walk in the flesh.
He is not in bondage to sin; he does not need to sin; if he remains in the Spirit, he will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
The lusts of the flesh will always be with us as long as we are in these bodies, but they do not reign over us and we do not have to follow them.
We remain in the spirit by bringing our thoughts and our bodies (where the mind goes the body follows) under the subjection of Christ.
When we do things that we want not to do... this is not us sinning. This is sin in our flesh. (note.. what we do not want to do)
I for example sometimes lose my temper. I walk in the flesh and I scream at my girls or I am rude with my mouth. I do not desire to do this. But I take my eyes off Jesus and I walk in the flesh and I do the very thing I dont want to do. This is not my sinning. This is sin in my members and it needs to be crucifed... nailed to the cross. What is the sin I need to confess? It is the sin of not remaining in the spirit.
We crucify the deeds of our flesh. This means must pickup our cross daily... we deny our self.. that is our flesh and the desires and lusts and affections thereof and we crucify them.. We kill them, we present our bodies as living sacrifice to HIM that he may direct our paths and that means not into sin.
Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
I am not justified by my deeds or works. I am justified by Christ. I wear HIS righteousness. Sin is not imputed to me.
Romans 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
You said earlier that this is intellectual hogwash or something to that effect. But I do not believe that it is.
We need very much to understand that we are not our bodies. If we are born again. We are new creatures. We are new creatures with a godly nature, born of God. The life we live in the flesh we live by faith. Our lives are hid in Christ and we no longer live but HE lives in us, and as HE is so are we in the world.
We have HIS mind; we are renewing our minds that we may demonstrate the perfect will of God.
We have HIS spirit indwelling us and sealing us, body soul and spirit preserved unto the day of judgment.
We are sanctified and justified by HIM, and not by our selves. And we will be glorified by HIM.
We have mortal bodies and sin lives in them. But we if we are Christ's have crucified the deeds of the flesh with the lusts and affections thereof and are presenting our bodies as living sacrifices.
Our desire is not to sin. If our desire is to sin, we have a big big problem.
We also need to understand that there is a difference between the works of our flesh and us. This does not give us free reign to do the works of our flesh.. IF we have enetered HIS rest, we have ceased from our own works and HE now works in us to will and to want.
But, if we should be weak and do the works of the flesh, we have an advocate in Christ Jesus, who makes intercession for us, who chastizes us and brings us back to repentance, who is author and finisher of our faith, who is faithful to forgive our sins as we confess our sins.
This does not mean that we will not suffer loss, but not loss of our justness, because it is HIS justness and not our own that we have. I do not take lightly or think that it will be pleasant to face the flaming eyes of Jesus at the judgment seat of Christ and have my works burn up. I certainly know that in this life I will also suffer for the works that are done in the flesh, but I am confident that while it is a fearsome thing to fall into the arms of a HOLY GOD.. it is the only place that I want to fall and I will trust that HE is also merciful.
Lastly:
The talents are faith. This is my belief for the reasons that I have previously given. Faith is a grace that is given by a merciful God.
We are all given different amounts or measures or graces of faith. But each of us is given exactly the amount that is needed according to our calling and HIS purpose and foreknowledge.
Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Ro 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Re 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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Assuming this unprofitable servant was never a bornagain Christian yet eventhough he had been given one talent, then my questions are these:
Would he have become a bornagain Christian if he had made another talent with his one talent?
And,
If he made another talent with his one talent, what was or were those talents?
What do these talents represent? HFHS thought that they primarily meant faith although HFHS also threw grace and mercy in there...
So HFHS got up to 3 talents (if that is what the talents represented) but still 2 talents are unaccounted for?
Are all the talents the same thing, or different things?
Be blessed.
Eden
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Eden
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hi, helpforhomeschoolers (HFHS):
I still wanted to ask you
from HFHS to Eden:
I do not agree that you cannot stop sinning.
From Eden:
Ok, if that be the case,I have 3 simple questions for you.
"HFHS, did you sin today, or not?"
"HFHS, did you sin yesterday, or not?"
"HFHS, did you sin the day before yesterday, or not?"
HFHS, I'll spare you the rest of the year.
Please tell me only about those 3 days only, whether you sinned or not.
I'm looking forward to your answer.
Be blessed.
Eden
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becauseHElives
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Eden, if the ability to live in this life without sin in the daily life of a believer is not possible, Yeshua died in vain and the scriptures are a lie.
“Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, LOVE your enemies, BLESS them that curse you, DO GOOD to them that hate you, and PRAY for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans do the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? Do not even the publicans so? Be Ye therefore Perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is Perfect.” (Matt 5:43-48)
“This I say then, WALK in the SPIRIT, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would” (Gal 5:16-17)
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And WALK IN LOVE as Christ also hath LOVED US, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.” (Eph 5:1-2)
(Romans 8) [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Yahweh would not command His children to do that which is not possible…
But because of all the false teaching by persons who profess to be preacher’s of the Gospel, people like yourself have no expectation of living a life above sin…
It is Grace and Grace alone that “Saves” but Grace must be defined correctly.
Grace is not only unmerited favor but it is also Yahweh’s power & ability, He gives, to the belever, to live the life commanded by Yahweh Himself in His Word…..
A life without sin.
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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hi, helpforhomeschoolers (HFHS):
thank you for posting those scriptures.
from HFHS:
I do not agree that you cannot stop sinning.
From Eden:
Ok then, if that is the case, then I have a 3 simple questions for you.
"HFHS, did you sin today, or not?"
"HFHS, did you sin yesterday, or not?"
"HFHS, did you sin the day before yesterday, or not?"
HFHS, I'll spare you the rest of the year.
Please tell me only about those 3 days only, whether you sinned or not.
And don't hide behind "that's between me and the Lord."
Be blessed.
Eden
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Excellent article Dale! Thanks for sharing.
quote:
Eden to HFHS: Do you agree that part of our natural being cannot stop sinning until we receive our spiritual body, or not?
I believe the Bible Eden....
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Ro 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
1Co 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
quote:
Eden to HFHS: Do you agree that part of our natural being cannot stop sinning until we receive our spiritual body, or not?
I do not agree that you cannot stop sinning. The unreginerate man can do nothing but sin. The Born again man does not have to sin. The Born again man can remain in the spirit and not the flesh.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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Then another difficulty comes in, and people say, "I have not the power to repent." There is a grand mistake. You have the power, or God would not command it. You can repent!
What is Repentance?
by Catherine Booth
If any father has a prodigal son, I ask, How is it that you are reconciled to your son? You love him intensely. Probably you are more conscious of your love for him than for any other of your children. Your heart yearns over him, you pray for him, you dream of him, your bowels yearn over him. Why are you not reconciled? Why are you obligated to hold him at arm's length and not have him come in and out, and live with you on the same terms as the affectionate, obedient daughter?
"Oh!" you say, "the case is different, I cannot. It is not, I would not, but I cannot". "Before that can possibly be, the boy's feeling must be changed toward me. I have done all a father could do, but he will go on in defiance of my will." You say, "As a wise and righteous father I must insist on a change in him. He must confess his sin and ask me to forgive him. Then I should run to meet him and put my arms around his neck!" But there is a "cannot" in the case.
Just so. It is not that God does not love you, sinner, or that the great benevolent heart of God has not, as it were, wept tears of blood over you. It is not that He would not put His loving arms around you this moment if you would only come to His feet, and confess you wrong, and seek His pardon. He cannot. The laws of His universe are against His doing so. He dare not and cannot until there is a change of mind in you. You must repent, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
Well, if repentance be an indispensable condition of salvation, let us try to find out what repentance really is. How full of confusion the world and the Church are upon this subject! Repentance is not merely conviction of sin. If it were, what a different world we should have, for there are tens of thousands in whose hearts God's Spirit has done His work of convincing them of sin. We should be perfectly astounded if we had any conception of the multitude whom God as convinced of sin, as he did Agrippa and Festus. They are convinced of sin, but they go no further. They live this week as they did last. That is not repentance.
Neither is repentance mere sorrow for sin. I have seen people weep bitterly and writhe and struggle, yet hug their idols, and vain as it been to try to shake these from them. If Jesus Christ would have saved them with those idols, they would have had no objection at all. If they could have got through the strait gate with one particular idol, they would have gone through long since, but to part with it is another thing. Some people will weep like your stubborn child when you want him to do something which he does not want to do. He will cry, and when you apply the rod he will cry harder, but he will not yield. When he yields he becomes a penitent, but until he does he is merely convicted sinner.
When God applies the rod of His Spirit, of His providence, and His word, sinners will cry, wince, and whine and make you believe they are praying and want to be saved, but all the while they are holding their necks as stiff as Iron. They will not submit. The moment they submit they become true penitents and re saved. There is not mistake more common than for people to suppose they are repentant when they are repentant when they are not. Repentance, therefore, is not mere sorrow for sin.
A man may be ever so sorry and all the way down to death be hugging some forbidden thing, as the young ruler hugged his possessions. But that is not repentance. Neither is repentance a promise that you will forsake sin in the future. It if were, there would be many more penitents. There is scarcely a poor drunkard that does not promise, in his own mind, or to his poor wife, or somebody, that he will forsake his cups. There is scarcely any kind of a sinner who does not continually promise that he will one day give up his sin and turn to God, but he does not do it.
What then is repentance? Repentance is simply renouncing sin, turning round from darkness to light, from the power of Satan unto God. This is giving up sin in your heart, in purpose, in desire; resolving that you will give up every evil thing, and that you will do it now. Of course this involves sorrow; for how will any sane man turn himself round from a given course into another if he does not repent? it implies, also, hatred of the course he formerly took, and from which he turns.
He is like the prodigal who, when he sat in the swine yard amongst the husks and the filth, fully resolved, and at last acted. He went, and that was the test of his repentance. He might have sat resolving and promising till now, if he had lived as long, and he would never have got the father's kiss, the father's welcome, if he had not started. Yet, he went, and went to his father honestly and said, "I have sinned" which implied a great deal more in his language then than it does in our now.
Then comes the proof of his submission, "and am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants" -put me in a stable, or set me to clean the boots, so that I can be in thy family and have thy smile. That is Jesus Christ's own beautiful illustration of true repentance. Sub mission is the test of true repentance. My child may be willing to do a hundred and fifty other things, but if he is not willing to submit on the one point of controversy he is a rebel and remains one until he yields.
Here is the difference between a spurious and a real repentance. I am afraid we have had, in our churches thousands who had a spurious repentance: they were convinced of sin - they were sorry for it; they wanted to live a better life, to love God in a sort of general way; but they skipped over the real point of controversy with God; they hid it form their pastor, perhaps, and from the deacons, and from the people who talked with them. Abraham might have been willing to give up every other thing he possessed, but if he had not been willing to give up Isaac, all else would have been useless. It is your Isaac that God wants. You have an Isaac, just as the young ruler had his possessions. You have something that you are holding on to, that the Holy Spirit says you must let go, and you say, "I can't" Very well, then you must you must stop outside the Kingdom.
Then another difficulty comes in, and people say, "I have not the power to repent." There is a grand mistake. You have the power, or God would not command it. You can repent!
You can this moment lift up your eyes to Heaven and say, with the prodigal, "Father, I have sinned, and I renounce my sin." You may not be able to weep. God nowhere requires or commands that. You are able, this very moment, to renounce sin in purpose and in resolution. Mind you do not confound the renouncing of the sin with the power of saving yourself from it. If you renounce it, Jesus will come and save you from it, like the man with the withered hand whom Jesus intended to heal.
Where was the power to come from to heal him?
From Jesus, the benevolence, the love, that prompted that healing all came from Jesus; but Jesus wanted a condition, and that was the response of the man's will. So He said, "Stretch forth thine hand." If the man had been like some of you he would have said, "what an unreasonable command! You know I cannot do it." Jesus wanted that "I will, Lord" to be inside the man, the response of his will. The moment he said that, Jesus supplied strength. He stretched forth his hand and you know what happened.
Stretch out your withered hand, whatever it may be, and say, "I will, Lord." You have the power and mind, you have the obligation, which is universal and immediate. God "now commandeth all men every where to repent" and to believe the gospel. What a tyrant He must be if He commands that and yet knows you have not the power!
Now, do not say, "I do not feel enough."
Do you feel enough to be willing to forsake your sin?
That is the point. Any man who does not repent enough to forsake his sin is not a penitent at all. When you repent enough to forsake you sin, that moment your repentance is sincere and you may take hold of Jesus with a firm grasp. Then "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved".
By Catherine Booth -
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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TB125
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James teaches that quote:
...faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead (James 2:l7)
So we may understand and conclude that although this one servant, who is the focus of this topic, had received God's gift of faith, it was dead because he didn't do anything with it and it didn't bring him any "profit" to return to God.
Throughout his epistle, James teaches these early Christians and us to resist temptation, to repent and ask for God's forgiveness when we do sin, to encourage and pray for each other, and to humbly use our gifts in surrendered service to the glory of God.
If a "saved" born again believer can loose his/her salvation because of some sin in his/her life, which "sin" is it that is unforgiven, that send him/her to hell? Is it his/her last sin that may be unrecognized before he/she died? Is it some old sin that was never confessed? Is it a persistent attitude of pride or some personal prejudice against another group of people or a strong feeling of bitterness and unforgiveness against someone who really hurt him/her in the past?
If a saved person can be lost by his/her sin, who is ever good enough, righteous enough, pure enough, or humble enough to deserve God's final blessing of forgiveness and his eternal acceptance? Is the source of one's hope his/her record of good deeds, that should outweigh the bad ones, or is in the unmerited grace of God and his promises for victory and acceptance through his gift of the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit?
Paul teaches that the Holy Spirit is the quote:
seal...a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance (Eph. 1:13-14)
I have more confidence in God's promises than in my own efforts for holiness and faithful service. I'm trying to be "profitable" with God's gifts, but I've wasted a lot of his good resources. I'm glad and thankful that God hasn't given up on me, so I continue to "press on" thankful for his grace and repetitious instruction.
Let us use these topics to encourage each other in our lives of faith and humble service and to spread the good news of God's amazing grace to arrogant rebellous sinners.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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yahsway
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Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey its lust. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
There is conflict between the new nature and the old carnal nature, but Christ frees us to live in the power of the Holy Spirit.
We are born-again, new creations, empowered to live by the guiding of the Holy Spirit. Yes we are sinners saved by grace, and as such, we should show good fruit, not bad fruit.
HFHS is right. There IS a difference between having sin in our members and actually doing Sin or should I say willfully sinning.
Yeshua told the woman who was going to be stoned for adultry to "go and sin no more".
Remember that Yeshua said there was no temptation so great that God could not make a way for escape.
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Eden
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from helpforhomeschoolers (HFHS):
HFHS to Eden: Please dont put words in my mouth.
Eden: I didn't know I could put them in there.
HFHS: There is a difference between having sin in our members and doing sin.
Eden: That I think is academic hogwash. Paul discovered sin in his members because he found himself sinning. He described this as a "law of sin in my members"; part of Paul could not stop sinning.
Eden to HFHS: Do you agree that part of our natural being cannot stop sinning until we receive our spiritual body, or not?
Be blessed.
Eden
We are sinners who are born again and this is what the Bible says...
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Hi Eden:
quote:
Eden to HFHS: Have you not found sin in your members like Paul found? Are you better than Paul?
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive
ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Please dont put words in my mouth. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) We all have sin, in the born again Christian sin resides in our flesh and one day will become serpent food, as our mortal bodies are sown into the ground and become dust.
There is a difference between having sin in our members and doing sin. We are sinners who are born again and this is what the Bible says...
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Dont miss the big picture here... Jesus is the only man that has ever lived that both did not sin and had no sin.....
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
This is why Jesus rose in the same body that went in the tomb. We will not rise in the same body that goes in the ground; it is seed to be sown.
We are not our bodies. We live in our bodies. Our bodies are earthy... we are heavenly.
1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
As HE is , so are we in this world. We lack HIS image, and we await that day... the day that the corruptible is sown and the incorruptible raised..
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Sin is our members... this is why we do not mind the flesh (that is give mind to it) This is why we must walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. Sin lives in the flesh and we are Holy.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
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9 But ye are[u] not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,[/u] if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
DO WE BELIEVE THE BIBLE OR NOT??? YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN. But if you are then you are not now in the flesh.... IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLETH IN YOU>>> YOU ARE NOT IN THE FLESH
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10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
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![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
ARE YOU BORN AGAIN? DOES THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU? IS CHRIST RAISED? IF THE SPIRIT DWELLS IN YOU AND IF CHRIST IS RAISED YOU WILL RISE.
Do we believe the WORD?
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12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Dont leave out this part! You cant leave out this part... there is no condemnation for those who walk in the spirit- Is God leading? God does not lead us into sin!!!!
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint–heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
quote:
Eden: I always thought that when Jesus said that "you should have put your one talent with the bank" to mean that I "should have put my talent with the evangelists" (if I wasn't going to evangelize like the two-talent and five-talent people did), so that God could have received his own with usury, meaning at least the "banked" or "supported evangelist" might secure some saved persons?
Eden: that is not your interpretation, HFHS?
I am not sure what you think that my interpretation is. I also believe that the brokers of faith today are evangelists. But I think there is more to see here... You knew that I reap where I did not sow, says Jesus. Because you knew this you should have invested your faith in the brokers of faith... Paul said..
Philippians1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Paul also said when speaking of money that was given him by the church at philippi...
Php 4:17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.
The fruit of his labor was given to the account of those who gave to his mission. If this foolish servant had taken the little faith that he had and invested it in someone who brokered in faith for no other reason than the fact that he knew that Jesus does reap where he did not sow, then the usary that Jesus got back would have been credited to his account.
There is another example....it occurs at what people call the sheep and goat nations judgement..these that are being divided do not even know that they did the good that they did...
7 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Yet they are divided with the sheep and not the goats.
Every opportunity is given... God is so merciful! This goes back to the promise God made to Abraham...
Ge 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Jesus reaps where He did not sow! This foolish servant is not given what the others were given, but he is given enough that if he would not place it in the earth, GOD would cause it to abound in spite of him, but he placed it in the earth.
All men have a measure of faith, sufficient according to God's foreknowledge and purpose... but what is the faith we have in? Ourselves? The things corruptible? Material things? Even the Athiest who says there is no God has faith in his own knowledge. He has made himself to be a god by his thinking that in spite of all there is to testify of THE God there is no god. We see the rebellion of man in this parable... ill placed faith.
quote:
Eden: If the above is true, what then is the need of "if we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive us our sins"; doesn't "if we confess our sin" apply only to bornagain Christians?
The need of confession is of upmost importance!!!
See our sins are already paid for.. Jesus died for the sins of those that will be justified and those that are unjust...
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us (the just) to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Confession of our sins shows GOD our right heart... our humility. Confession of our sins requires us to acknowledge that we are men and not god. Confession of our sins requires us to acknowledge that we have sin and we know what that sin is and that we know that it is sin against GOD. Confession of our sin requires us to acknoledge that GOD IS GOD and can forgive our sins. Confession of our sins says that we know what God knows and that is that we are lost and without hope except that Christ has paid for our sins... confesssion of our sins makes it impossible for God to refuse to forgive our sins because GOD would be unjust to hold us accountable when HE has already accepted Christ's sacrifice for our sins.
The one who does not confess sin does not believe that he has sin, or does not believe that GOD is GOD, or Does not believe that Jesus has paid the price for our sin.
Why does the bible say that if you do not forgive your brother, God will not forgive you?
Because the moment you hold your brother accountable for a sin that Jesus has paid the price for, you become yourself a sinner and you dont even know it! It is a sin to not forgive what Jesus shed his blood to forgive. It is a sin to hold one to sin that Jesus has atoned for.
God can forgive my sin against HIM. God cannot forgive my sin against you for you. You must forgive me. If I am repentent and relying on Jesus for the forgiveness of my sin and you will not release me for what he gave his blood for you sin, against me, against GOD, against the blood.
Confession... it is key because it shows our acknowledge ment of GOD's GODHOOD and our humility before HIM. It sets forth our knowledge of the Blood sacrifice for without blood there is no forgiveness of sin and without the blood God could not be just to forgive our sins; but God is Just and He is faithful and he will not hold us accountible for what Jesus has paid the price for.. our confession shows that we know this. It acknowledges our knowledge of GOD's FAITHFULNESS.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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from helpforhomeschoolers (HFHS):
HFHS: Let's think about this. what does a bank do? A bank take my money and gives it to another and charges a fee for giving it to them.
HFHS: Who today takes the faith of one and gives it out to another and charges a premium or fee for giving it out? Who are the exchangers today?
Eden: I always thought that when Jesus said that "you should have put your one talent with the bank" to mean that I "should have put my talent with the evangelists" (if I wasn't going to evangelize like the two-talent and five-talent people did), so that God could have received his own with usury, meaning at least the "banked" or "supported evangelist" might secure some saved persons?
Eden: that is not your interpretation, HFHS?
Be blessed.
Eden
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Eden
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Dear Bandit, I liked what you wrote to HFHS:
Bandit: P.S. Those who are secure in Christ are those who know where the boundaries are and observe them.
Eden: What are those boundaries, Bandit?
Be blessed.
Eden
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Eden
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From helpforhomeschoolers:
To Bandit: I do believe that the Bible teaches that you must be born again of Spirit and that when this occurs there is a new creature that cannot and does not sin and is a child of the Living GOd.
Eden: If the above is true, what then is the need of "if we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive us our sins"; doesn't "if we confess our sin" apply only to bornagain Christians?
Eden to HFHS: Have you not found sin in your members like Paul found? Are you better than Paul?
Be blessed.
Eden
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
Those who claim there are no boundaries may not be as secure as they think they are.
I agree with you absolutely! However, I also understand that it is the understanding that it is Christ who keeps me that allows me to be free from sin... I did not say free to sin. I said free from sin.
I am not in bondage to sin and I can walk in the Spirit and not the flesh because I do not have to give mind to sin and the flesh. I can bring my thoughts under subjection of Christ. I do not have to follow the desires of the flesh. The flesh will always always desire to sin. But I do not mind the flesh and am not working to control my flesh. I have presented by flesh to Christ.. surrendered it there to be controled by HIM. I am not keeping myself Christ is keeping me.
I am now bound to Christ and it is HIS yoke I have put on.. HIS Yoke that steers me.. not the yoke of sin or of my flesh. My focus is not on my flesh but on Christ, who live in me as I live in faith.
Christ is the Spirit of the Law. Christ is the WORD and the Law is God's word.. Christ has not abolished the Law but made it complete that it now brings both condemnation of sin and salvation from SIN.
You cant follow Christ and walk in sin because Christ is not walking in sin. If we love HIM we keep HIS commandments. His law is written in our hearts and it is not a burden to keep HIS commandments.
These are the truths we should be teaching and the church has fallen very short of teaching them. You will get no argument from me on the expectation of Holiness by God and the fact that God is not mocked.
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom!
We are not however to have just wisdom. We are to also get understanding and perfect love cast out fear. We are not given a spirit of fear, but a sound mind.. the mind of Christ and with it we can and should know that HE is able to preserve us.
He is working ALL things for HIS glory and our Good.
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
A born again person is NOW a citizen of Heaven. Is now joined with Christ, part of HIS body.
1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
I am secure because my Faith is in HIM and not in me to save myself.
The enemy wants us to deny eternal secuurity because then he can keep us focused on waring with out flesh rather than worshiping God with ALL ALL ALL our mind body and spirit. When you are waring with your flesh part of you is not worshiping God in SPirit it is battling your flesh.
Denying eternal security is a denial of God's Omnipotence. My flesh and the desires there of are not more powerful than the Holy Spirit of God that indwells me.
Teach holiness yes!
Teach that the Law is not abolished, yes!
Teach that those who endure to the end are saved, Yes!
Teach that those who are HIS walk in the spirit and not the flesh, Yes!
Teach repentance from sin; bringing our bodies and our thoughts into subjection, yes!
Teach presenting our bodies as living sacrifices daily and denial of self, Yes!
But do not teach that the born again can be lost.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The unprofitable servant was unprofitable... how can a born again person be un profitable? It is the spirit of God that makes a servant to be profitable... it is the spirit of God that produces fruit in us. Can the spirit of God fail to produce fruit?
I will answer your parable in another post.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Bandit
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
...
There is no example in the scipture of a Born again person who lost thier salvation. NOT ONE!
...
Does this mean that if I can find even one example, that you would reconsider your position? If so, then please consider the parable in the latter half of Matthew 18. Jesus, through this parable, gives clear warning to His followers that salvation is not a permanent possession owned by the recipient; it can be forfeited if the recipient fails to do what is required!
Sincerely,
Bandit
P.S. Those who are secure in Christ are those who know where the boundaries are and observe them. (This is what the parable in Matthew 18 is about.) Those who claim there are no boundaries may not be as secure as they think they are. I would rather error on the side of caution, but to take Jesus’ warnings seriously is no error! (But rather those who ignore His warnings are in error!)
Posts: 113 | From: Melbourne, Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Bandit: I do believe that the Bible teaches that you must be born again of Spirit and that when this occurs there is a new creature that cannot and does not sin and is a child of the Living GOd. Once indwelled by, baptised with and sealed by the Holy Spirit we are preserved by that Spirit unto the judgement. I believe that the born again creature is within this body of sin and death and awaits its destuction ad the redemption of the spiritual body glorified body that is within it. I believe that the old man of sin is dead already and no longer lives. I believe that the life we live in this body after our rebirth is a life lived by faith where we no longer live, but CHRIST lives in us.
Thus, I believe that once a man is born again he is eternally secure and cannot become unborn again, and the new creature cannot be destroyed by anything under or above and surely cannot be damned.
There is no example in the scipture of a Born again person who lost thier salvation. NOT ONE!
To say that a born again creature can be damned is contrary to the scripture because the scripture says that the born again chiild of God cannot and does not sin.
I am sorry that you feel that I am foolish and that I twist scripture. I think the same of you so we are even. It is no big thing that I be judged by you, my faith is in GOD and I will stand on faith that GOD is able to keep me.
quote:
He clearly teaches that the foolish and unfaithful are those do not obey (or do not continue to obey)
Yes that is correct. The Bible also teaches that the Born again do obey. It is a very sad thing that people have perverted the message of Christ so as to make it to say that you can be a child of God and live the life of the heathen. That is not a reson to throw out the truth that those who are born again are secure in Christ. It would be better if we taught what Christ taught and that is that HIS sheep hear, know and follow his voice. Those who are HIS Obey His commands. Salvation is not to invite God into our lives of sin, but our giving up our life and being reconcilled to GOD's life which is a Holy Life.
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Bandit
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Hi Eden. the answer to your question is in the scripture... What are the talents?
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What he did not have was the second talent.. what is the second talent...
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The first dispensation of faith (talent)allows us to know that there is a GOD Almighty.
The second dispensation of faith (2nd Talent) allows us to repent and seek him.
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This post is a prime example of the extreme kind of twisting and turning to which some will resort in order to bend scripture to support their preconceived notions. By such twisting of scripture many simpleminded are lead astray. Please don’t be so foolish as to fall for such twisting. Jesus’ teaching clearly indicates who the faithful are: they are those who hear and obey His teaching. He clearly teaches that the foolish and unfaithful are those do not obey (or do not continue to obey). Anyone who teaches ‘once saved always saved’ is undermining Jesus’ many teachings on the necessity of remaining faithful. Please go back and read all of Matthew 24 & 25. Tell me where there is an example of someone saved by ‘faith’ who did not have to remain faithful? There are four parables there; take your pick. The last one is especially clear: people are judged based upon their moral behavior. I don’t see any mention of any kind of nebulous ‘faith’ here. Any attempt to define salvation apart from the necessity of moral uprightness is very unbiblical. Jesus’ teaching was meant to clearly warn that at His coming only those who remain morally upright will be His. The unfaithful - including those who did not continue in obedience - will be condemned. ‘Once saved always saved’ is a very deceitful false teaching. Many will find themselves cast out of the kingdom because they accepted this false doctrine and thereby let their guard down. Let everyone beware of the very real peril connected with this false teaching. Do not let your guard down - heed Jesus’ warning by remaining faithful in your behavior toward God till the very end.
Bandit
Posts: 113 | From: Melbourne, Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Hi Eden. the answer to your question is in the scripture... What are the talents?
14 ¶ For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Now the goods of a man are that which he produces. If you are a wheat farmer for instance your goods are bushels of wheat.
Jesus is the WORD of GOD that became Flesh. We all agree that the man is Jesus. What are HIS goods?
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Jesus is the word of God and the word of God produces faith.
The talents are faith. The more you excercise faith, the more faith grows.
Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Jesus is the author- "producer" of our faith.. his goods are faith..
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;
Every man is given a measure of faith. But every man is not given the same measure of faith.
The scripture tells us that when Christ was come and dies and risen, something would happen.. all men would be drawn to him. We are told also in the scripture that what was once hidden was now manifest and the world was without excuse and God now calls ALL men to repentance...
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
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Grace and mercy... God is gracious to give mercy to the sinner. It is by Grace (made possible or more correctly legal by the blood of Christ)that God etends to men HIS mercy.
The first dispensation of grace that is given is given to all and it is a measure of faith that allows the heathen who is not and cannot be subject to the laws of God and who is not does not and cannot seek God on his own accord to be drawn to God in the first place... this is the 1 talent. It is given to the Unjust and to the Just.
To the just is given the second talent and more...
Now the unprofitable servant was told something interesting by Jesus...
Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Jesus said you KNEW... YOU KNEW... There is no excuse.. YOU KNEW, by your oen admission that I gather not just where I have planted, but also where I have not...
You should have invested my goods, money, the 1 talent of faith that I gave you with those that exchange faith.
Let's think about this.. what does a bank do? A bank take my money and gives it to another and charges a fee for giving it to them.
Who today takes the faith of one and gives it out to another and charges a premium or fee for giving it out? Who are the exchangers today?
Out of their exchanging some are harvested where the LORD did not sow.
Jesus said if you had at least done this.. it would have been good for you; then I would have gotten back what I left with you and with interest... with some earned from the brokers.
But the servant did not do this he burried his faith. He physically let it part from his hands and placed it in the earth. I was still there when Jesus came to reconcile the books and give out rewards... the unprofitable servants faith was buried in the earth. Jesus had himm dig it up and give it to the one who had 5 talents and turned them into ten.
Faith will not be needed anymore when Jesus comes because at that time EVERY KNEE will bow and confess that Jesus is LORD... faith is the evidence of things NOT SEEN.
There are so many many things to see in this parable. This is but one thing. But the talent is faith. God gives even to the unjust the ability to come to HIM and acknowledge that HE Alone is GOD... if that ONE Talent were invested it could become two even for the unjust, but that is not what happens... what happens is the unjust manifest their unprofitability as servants.
What he did not have was the second talent.. what is the second talent...
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, [b]and [b]that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
The first dispensation of faith (talent)allows us to know that there is a GOD Almighty.
The second dispensation of faith (2nd Talent) allows us to repent and seek him.
If you have these two you can get the next and be born again and receive the Holy Spirit.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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from HFHS:
HFHS: 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
HFHS: The unprofitable servant had opportunity... had the initial grace of faith that is given to every man that allows him to know that God is GOD... allows man to repent...
HFHS: Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
HFHS: The unprofitable servant was never born again. The unprofitable servant buried his faith and God's Grace and mercy.
from Eden:
Eden: The unprofitable servant was given one talent. He had one talent; the next person only had two talents and the other had no more than five talents.
Eden: Now, HFHS, you make these talents to be "faith" and "grace" and "mercy" because you said above, "The unprofitable servant buried his faith and God's Grace and mercy."
Eden: This unprofitable servant had one talent. But HFHS, why do you say that his one talent was mostly faith as you did by quoting the "measure of faith" verse to support your idea?
Eden: What do these talents represent, anyway?
HFHS: Dale. I wont debate eternal security with you, but clearly this scripture post above shows that the unprofitable servant "hath not" something that the others had.
Eden: What did the unprofitable servant not have? He still had the original talent, what didn't he have? At least an effort to make another convert for Christ, with the Holy Spirit's "talents"?
But if that is the case, then this unprofitable servant must have been a bornagain Christian at least at some point, because he would not have access to the Holy Spirit unless he was born again?
Be blessed.
Eden
make these talent to be "faith" and "grace" and "mercy"
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becauseHElives
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hey helpforhomeschoolers
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
I'm not up for a debate either....
it's enough to know you don't beleive in sloppy Grace
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Bandit
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
[Concerning the Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25]
My question is this. Was the unprofitable servant ever a bornagain Christian but a carnal Christian who never did anything for the Lord beyond receiving the free gift of salvation and one talent (of money or skill empowered by the Holy Spirit)?
Was salvation taken from the unprofitable servant for not doing anything for the Lord after salvation or is that not what this part of the parable means?
Be blessed.
Eden
Hello Eden,
One of the most important things a person can do to help with their understanding of scripture is to learn to recognize and read in context. The parable of which you speak is actually part of a larger teaching, so I would first recommend reading that parable within the context in which Jesus originally gave it. So here is how I ‘read’ this parable.
I believe this parable, and the entire passage it is a part of (section 24:45 through 25:46) elaborate upon who will be His at His coming. To fully understand the parable in question you need to read all of Matthew 24 and 25 as a single, cohesive unit. In this unit Jesus eventually gives a rather lengthy discussion of the Day of the Lord (the day of His return) in verses 24:27 through 24:44. The last few verses in that discussion is very important (verses 42-44), for in them Jesus gives clear warning for those of that generation (see verses 32-34) to be ready for His coming. He then arrives at verse 24:45 where He asks who will then be “the faithful and sensible slave” whom He will reward at His coming? He then proceeds to answer this question, not only in the next few verses, but throughout the whole of chapter 25! It is very important that you read and understand each of the three parables in Matthew 25 (as well as the short parable in 24:45-51) as being directed to that very same question: Who will be His at His coming? (Or at the final judgement of the nations.) The four parables, yet different, all have a common core: those who are His are those who live and do as God commands; those living and doing otherwise are cast away. In all four parables it is the moral behavior of the individual which decides their own outcome; there is no example of salvation by ‘faith’ apart from living uprightly.
Concerning your question as to whether or not the unprofitable servant could represent one who was ‘saved’ but then was lost: the answer is a resounding ‘Yes.’
Sincerely,
Bandit
P.S. I am always amazed at those who insist that a ‘Christian’ could never fall away. These have simply never learned to read and understand scripture in context. But to each their own way.
Posts: 113 | From: Melbourne, Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
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29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
The unprofitable servant had opportunity... had the initial grace of faith that is given to every man that allows him to know that God is GOD... allows man to repent...
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
The unprofitable servant was never born again. The unprofitable servant buried his faith and God's Grace and mercy.
Dale. I wont debate eternal security with you, but clearly this scripture post above shows that the unprofitable servant "hath not" something that the others had.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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quote:
Was salvation taken from the unprofitable servant for not doing anything for the Lord after salvation or is that not what this part of the parable means?
verse thirty answers the question very plainly....
30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
The scriptures are not writen for understanding to the lost, but admonition to the believer.
Remember Yeshua's teaching on the parable of the sower, if you don't understand the parable of the sower He said, you will not understand any of My teachings
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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becauseHElives
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James 1
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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J4Jesus
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Is it the world that pollutes someone or their own self?
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Eden
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The unprofitable servant had received one talent.
Does the talent in this parable refer to a gift of the Holy Spirit?
If so, the unprofitable servant must have been a bornagain Christian at some point?
Eden
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KnowHim
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God is at liberty to do with us what He likes, even as He did with His own Son.
This parable isn't about how we get to heaven, we are all sinners, and we are all saved by grace through faith in Christ - this parable is about how we live our life as a child of God.
God gives us talents to use, not to save, not to store, not as insurance, but to use. Just as God gives us talents to use, so God gives us grace to use - it doesn't do anyone any good if we have more - if we don't use what we have. Not on ourselves but for the Kingdom of God.
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
James 1:27 (NIV)
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TB125
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That is an interesting question. I think that this parable is more about stewardship of our gifts than it is about salvation.
Everyone in the world is one of God's stewards, since God owns everything in the world. So everything that we receive is a gift from God, and we are each responsible for how we use these gifts.
It might help to understand this parable and to answer this question if we recognize that God's call to enter into a personal relationship with Him is one of his gifts.
So all three of these stewards received this gift of his call for a relationship. Two of them received additional gifts as well. The third did not make any use of his one gift for a saving relationship with God, so it might be understood that he was not in such a relationship with God. This is true, since God not only gives out the gifts, he is also through his Spirit the agent of their productive use (the fruit that comes from one's union with God and Jesus through obedience and the Holy Spirit).
Perhaps one's refusal to use God's gift of grace and salvation is, according to God's accounting standards, the same as rejecting it. Such a steward would not be in a saving relationship with God. This is a brief and quick answer to the question, and I hope that it is helpful.
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Bob
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Eden
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Matthew 25 (NJKV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.
15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.
16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents.
17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also.
18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’
21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’
23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed.'
25 'And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.'
27 'So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.'
28 'So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.'
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.
30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
My question is this. Was the unprofitable servant ever a bornagain Christian but a carnal Christian who never did anything for the Lord beyond receiving the free gift of salvation and one talent (of money or skill empowered by the Holy Spirit)?
Was salvation taken from the unprofitable servant for not doing anything for the Lord after salvation or is that not what this part of the parable means?
Be blessed.
Eden
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