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Topic: Why take the leap?
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WhiteEagle
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Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by itstrue:
WhiteEagle: You’re right; our “secular laws” are not entirely rational. I am against such controlling laws as the seatbelt law, but I recognize that the law does save lives. Abortion though, does not kill life, it kills “potential”. That is, it kills the potential for human life. Going by that same “logic”, each sperm cell is also a potential life. Therefore, it would be murder to let any die. But, if a man does not have sex for long enough, the sperm is simply absorbed back into the body. Does this mean he has committed murder?
Sperm do not contain all the required elements for a new human life. Neither do ovum. As you know these two must unite to form the combination of 46 chromosomes that make a human life. The sperm or ova can only contribute 23 pairs of chromosomes so it is not a life. It is a building block to pass on a potential life. The feritlized ova IS a complete human being with the same DNA at that initial stage as you have now.
You were not made soley of a sperm cell or soley from an ovum. It is the uniting of both that makes you a person.
Is a newborn any less of a person just because he/she can't speak yet, or walk, or figure out how to balance a check book?
Is an elderly person any less a human being just because they have Alheimer's Disease?
Both have the same DNA they had at conception.
We all have potential for life throughout our whole time on earth, not just in the womb.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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itstrue
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NLP:
1. Thank you for clarifying what you meant by there being only two rules. Obviously, I don’t know very much about Christianity. I do have two problems with the rules. First, I’m pretty sure that # 6-10 are still don’t dos. Second, and this goes along with the idea of undeserved love, I don’t think that people, whether they are my parents or not, deserve my love or respect without earning them. If a man beats his daughter, must she respect him? If she didn’t, would she be destined for hell?
David: You make a good point about some of the forms of relativism. One cannot be sure that nothing is for sure. A person should try to avoid having contradictory beliefs, unless one knows they are contradictory. One reason why I respect extremists more than moderates is because moderates inherently hold contradictory beliefs. At least the extremists keep their convictions. For instance, if a moderate said that he believes in Jesus, but not the literal version of the bible, then isn’t he also saying that Jesus was only symbolic?
WhiteEagle: You’re right; our “secular laws” are not entirely rational. I am against such controlling laws as the seatbelt law, but I recognize that the law does save lives. Abortion though, does not kill life, it kills “potential”. That is, it kills the potential for human life. Going by that same “logic”, each sperm cell is also a potential life. Therefore, it would be murder to let any die. But, if a man does not have sex for long enough, the sperm is simply absorbed back into the body. Does this mean he has committed murder?
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jul 2006
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NLP
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posted
Good Post DAVID! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
Itstrue: Two things
1. Jesus summed up the the ten commandments in the two.
If you love GOD with all heart soul and mind you will not:
1. Have any gods before him
2. Make images then worship them
3. Take His name in vain
4. Disrespect His Sabbath Day (this is a day dedicated to God)
If you love Your neighbor as yourself you will not:
5. Disrespect you parents; you will honor them
6. You won't murder another
7. You won't commit adultery against your spouse
8. You won't steal from another
9. You won't lie and tell tales about others
10. You won't covent and then try to possess another person's property
Do you understand it a little better now? The 10 commandments of "don't do" were summed up by Jesus in the 2 of what "to do".
2. Most individuals your age are not so focused on the dissection or condemanation of Christianity, but more concerned with getting their license and a car etc. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
So I wanted to ask did something personal happen to you that involved a Christian individual or Christianity to make this a "sore" subject for you or is it more general like you are worried about the wars brought forth by religious beliefs and things like that; that are happening right now? I'm just curious.
Posts: 45 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2006
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
I have to agree with Bandit on the point that an athiest, whether by choice or default, is an evolutionist.
When I hear evolutionist talk of their theories, I always hear of "survival of the fittest" and "protection and procreation of the species".
itstrue says quote:
We should throw away our useless moralities of the bible, such as that against gay marriage and condoms, but keep the practical ones, as dictated by rational laws.
So we must be in some degree of agreement that some moralities are rational, and are practical as law.
You call Bible morality against gays useless.
I say that logical evolution morality says homosexuality is wrong.
Same sex activity does nothing to protect or procreate the species,
thus logical evolution along with the Bible stands against homosexuality.
An evolutionist may make a logical evolution morality for rape, as long as it is against the opposite sex, and the victom is of age to reproduce;
condoms would be in the way of logical procreation of the species, so an evolutionist with logic could protest condoms;
but the logical morals of an evolutionist must stand against homosexuality and pedophilia.
Bible morality and logical evolutionist morality against homosexuality being the same;
where is any logic giving support to homosexuals?
Might it be there is no logic at all in the theories of evolution?
T7
I just want to add to the quote about"rational laws".
We hear alot about The Law these days. Our secular laws, that are supposed to be sooo logical.
It's legal to kill one's baby in your womb. (it's the law)
It's illegal to not wear a seat belt. (its the law) The propaganda for this one is that IT SAVES LIVES!
Yet it's legal to kill an unborn child.
So do our laws really want to protect human life or not?
I do not call that logical. It's really based on money. If one feels that money is the only logic worth living by, then I guess it makes sense.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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KnowHim
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In Dr. Robert Morey’s book The New Atheism and the Erosion of Freedom, he talks with an atheist about this issue. The atheist assumes that everything is relative, and there are no absolutes (he is absolutely sure of that). Morey replies that the first thing an atheist must do is prove the existence of evil. By what process can an atheist identify evil? He must have a universal absolute to do so. Without an absolute reference point for "good" (which only God can provide), no one can identify what is good or evil. Thus without the existence of God, there is no "evil" or "good" in an absolute sense. Everything is relative. The problem of evil does not negate the existence of God. It actually requires it. Many assume that because evil still exists today, God has not dealt with it. How can atheists assume that God has not already solved the problem of evil in such a way that neither His good-ness nor omnipotence is limited? On what grounds do they limit what God can and cannot do to solve the problem? God has already solved the problem of evil. And He did it in a way in which He did not contradict His nature or the nature of man. We assume God will solve the problem of evil in one single act. But why can’t He deal with evil in a progressive way? Can’t He deal with it throughout time as we know it, and then bring it to the climax on the Day of Judgment? God sent His Son to die on the cross in order to solve the problem of evil. Christ atoned for evil and secured the eventual removal of all evil from the earth. One day evil will be quarantined in one spot called "hell." Then there will be a perfect world devoid of all evil. If God declared that all evil would, at this moment, cease to exist, you and I and all of humanity would go up in a puff of smoke. Divine judgment demands that sin be punished. Ron Meade
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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itstrue
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NLP: You say that there are only two rules. But what about the Ten Commandments? Are those now null and void? Also, about the issue of brotherly love. I do not give my love to those who do not deserve it. People do not arbitrarily deserve my love, nor do I expect them to love me for no reason. For more on this kind of thought, you may want to read “The Fountainhead” by Ayn Rand.
About the analogy, you’re probably right; it was not a very good one. I’m sure that there are many happy Christians and many unhappy atheists. I’m not trying to argue that to be happy you must be atheist, only that it is more logical. Also, when I say consciousness, I’m referring to what a religious person might call a soul. On me having no proof whether I will wake up tomorrow, that may be so, but I can use reason to say that this or that will not happen and therefore I will live.
MentorsRiddle: On the issue of gay marriage, you say that it goes against natural laws. Humans have always broken natural laws. The main one is that of natural survival. We adapt our environment to ourselves rather than ourselves to the environment. You say that most atheists believe in “Natural Laws”. I am not like most atheists. Most atheists are Humanists. I am not.
On a separate note, one of the most potent arguments against the existence of god is “The Problem of Evil”. Here it is:
1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn't exist.
Source: Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
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Thunderz7
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posted
I have to agree with Bandit on the point that an athiest, whether by choice or default, is an evolutionist.
When I hear evolutionist talk of their theories, I always hear of "survival of the fittest" and "protection and procreation of the species".
itstrue says quote:
We should throw away our useless moralities of the bible, such as that against gay marriage and condoms, but keep the practical ones, as dictated by rational laws.
So we must be in some degree of agreement that some moralities are rational, and are practical as law.
You call Bible morality against gays useless.
I say that logical evolution morality says homosexuality is wrong.
Same sex activity does nothing to protect or procreate the species,
thus logical evolution along with the Bible stands against homosexuality.
An evolutionist may make a logical evolution morality for rape, as long as it is against the opposite sex, and the victom is of age to reproduce;
condoms would be in the way of logical procreation of the species, so an evolutionist with logic could protest condoms;
but the logical morals of an evolutionist must stand against homosexuality and pedophilia.
Bible morality and logical evolutionist morality against homosexuality being the same;
where is any logic giving support to homosexuals?
Might it be there is no logic at all in the theories of evolution?
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by itstrue:
Kindgo: I’m not sure if I understand your first point. You seem to be saying that god picks certain people to believe in him. Also, please don’t pray for me. A recent study showed that people who were prayed for before and during surgery were actually more likely to have complications. He certainly does work in mysterious ways.
Bandit: In regard to your point that I can’t prove that god doesn’t exist, I also can’t prove that invisible, intangible pigs don’t live under my bed. Perhaps I should found a religion based on that.
NLP: That’s probably the most convincing argument I’ve heard so far. The problem with it is that in order to get to heaven, I have to follow arcane and insane rules on earth.
Lets examine this:
Steve the atheist lives a productive and enjoyable life, making a discovery that allows his name and legacy to carry on. During the time when others are at church, he rests and reflects.
Mona the Catholic becomes a nun. Her life is not enjoyable, but she believes she will be rewarded in heaven.
Both of them die. There is no god.Who do you think would have regrets if they still had a consciousness?
I know I sound overtly hostile to your ideas, but it is because I am fed up with there being a burden of proof in everthing but religion.
Atheists do not believe that there is any consciousness after physical death. Atheists believe that human beings are just getting smarter and better due to evolutionary changes.
Atheists believe that humans are no different than other animal life and that since humans are animals also, humans do not have any afterlife.
No scientist can prove that God does NOT exist. No scientist can prove that the universe just happened by chance due a quantum fluctuation either.
Here's a link to Pascal's Wager. I'm guessing that you are familiar with it.
http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/wager.html
God is seen in the creation.
Jesus is known through prayer and repentance and agreeing with the Bible that you are born a sinner.
Following the sayings of Jesus is living a much better life here on earth. But that is not enough to get one into heaven.
I think you are searching and hopefully being honest with this forum.
All other religions teach that one must act a certain way and do certain deeds to be able to get into heaven. New Age teaches one doesn't need to repent and that we're all god's children and we will all go to heaven anyway.
Spiritualty is a real phenomenom. It's very easy to access the spirit world and very easy to access the demonic. Reaching up to the Almighty God is a little more difficult. He does have standards and He is holy and He is loving and just.
Faith is the way and repentance to reach up.
God will be real to you.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by itstrue:
NLP: That’s probably the most convincing argument I’ve heard so far. The problem with it is that in order to get to heaven, I have to follow arcane and insane rules on earth.
Lets examine this:
Steve the atheist lives a productive and enjoyable life, making a discovery that allows his name and legacy to carry on. During the time when others are at church, he rests and reflects.
Mona the Catholic becomes a nun. Her life is not enjoyable, but she believes she will be rewarded in heaven.
Both of them die. There is no god. Who do you think would have regrets if they still had a consciousness?
Both as Mona the Catholic depended on her works to get her to heaven, when she should have come to know Jesus Christ as her savior and not try to earn it on her own merit. Her life was not enjoyable because she never met Jesus Christ and therefore would not be saved to begin with. So both would die in their sin and be in hell with Satan if they don't repent and ask Jesus to pay their sin dept.
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There are three basic ways we know things: reason, experience, and authority-and we Christians add a fourth, revelation, which is really another kind of authority.
Pure reason-logic and mathematics-affords absolute or 100% proof of things. Experience and authority only afford approximate proof. But we don't denigrate experience and authority simply because they don't give absolute proofs. We still trust them a great deal-sometimes we trust them 100% even though they don't give us 100% proof.
For instance, experience might tell you it's safe to cross the street. But you don't have absolute proof. Still when you cross the street you take 100% of yourself across; you trust yourself 100% to the answer experience gives to the question, "Is it safe for me to cross the street now?” Every day we make decisions like that trusting ourselves 100% to things we cannot know with 100% certitude but that we can know with varying degrees of certitude.
Sometimes we trust ourselves completely to something even when there is a fairly high degree of certitude that the thing will turn out to fail us. If we can only see two options, and one of them will almost certainly bring us disaster and the other has even a very low degree of certainty of saving us, we might well trust ourselves—100%—to that highly uncertain option that could mean deliverance.
Imagine, for instance, that you are standing in a sixth floor room of a burning building. You're convinced that if you stay there you will burn to death. You're also pretty sure that if you jump, you'll break your leg or kill yourself, or at least knock yourself out and die when the building collapses on top of you and burns you. What will you do? Quite probably you w1l1jump despite the danger, because you consider the slight chance of your survival by that means to be more attractive than the high chance of death if you stay in the building.
You would never have jumped had the building not been burning and had there been no other life-threatening situation leading you to make that decision. The stakes involved in a decision, then, can justify our trusting some things on little evidence that we would not ordinarily trust even on much greater evidence.
When we approach the question, "How can you prove that God exists?" we're dealing with a question that cannot be answered by pure reason alone-mathematics and logic. It must be answered by some combination of reason, experience, and authority. The evidence given must always fall short of absolute proof, but it is not insufficient for commitment. As with any other question of this sort, we must make our decisions based on degrees of probability. Naturally our decisions will be affected in part by the stakes in the matter.
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What happens when we breathe our final breath? The Bible teaches what will occur. First our immaterial soul and spirit will be separated from our physical body. Second, we will immediately receive the judgment that will determine our eternal destiny. Those who have trusted in Christ’s payment on the cross for our sins, will enter into eternal life in the presence of God. 2 Corinthians 5:8 states, “We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” There will be no delay in a state of unconsciousness many call soul sleep. We will immediately be in God’s presence.
Second, the soul in heaven is made perfect in holiness and our old sin nature is eradicated. Hebrews 12:23 mentions, “the spirits of righteous men made perfect.” The spirits of the saints are in heaven and they have been made perfect. The struggle with sin that Paul described and all Christians fight comes to an end forever when we, after death, enter our glorified state. Those who rejected this gift, will receive what they have chosen, eternity separated from God in Hell. Hebrews 9:27 states, “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.” There is no second chance and there is no cycle of reincarnation. Our eternal destiny is determined by the decision we make for Christ here on earth. Many assume that after receiving Christ, a joyful entrance into heaven is all that remains. Scripture teaches that Jesus will reward us according to how we lived our life on earth. He taught this principle in the parable of the talents in Luke 19. Each servant was entrusted to administer the talents the master gave him. Upon the return of the master, each servant had to give an account for his stewardship. The wise servants were rewarded doubly while the wicked servant was removed. The lesson for the Christian is that each of us will give an account for our time here on earth. This is not the same as being judged on our salvation status. Christ’s death on the cross allows all who believe to enter God’s kingdom. We will be judged on our works done since the time of our salvation. This judgment of believers is called the Bema Seat judgment. This event is described in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15: For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work, which he has built upon it, remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire. Paul states that Christ is our foundation. Our works are the building on this foundation. The materials of gold, silver, and precious stones refer to works done with pure motives for the glory of God. The works of wood, hay, and straw are works done with the wrong motives to glorify self. At the Bema Seat, our works will be tested with divine fire. Those works that were done for the glory of God will endure the flames and will be our reward. Some will regretfully see all their works on earth burned up before their eyes and enter heaven with little or no reward. The unbeliever will be judged and sentenced to hell. At the end of the age, he faces the Great White Throne judgment. Here, all the unrighteous dead from the beginning of time are judged based on their rejection of the Savior. They are then thrown into the lake of fire for eternity. Revelation 20:11-15 says: And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened; . . . and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. . . . And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Knowing that as Christians we will one day give an account for our lives, we should live as wise stewards over what God has given us. Knowing the fate of the unsaved should fill us with boldness to share Christ unashamedly, with urgency to all. Knowing what lies beyond the grave should motivate us to live life on earth with a mission.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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MentorsRiddle
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Hello believers, I am a 16 year old atheist. I was wondering why you all choose to believe. Kant once said that religion requires a leap of faith, but I have always wondered, “Why make the leap?” It is my beleif that it is because people fear death and come up with stories to make themselves less afraid of the nothingness that comes after their demise. If we all denounced our false gods, humanity as a whole could accomplish a lot more. We should throw away our useless moralities of the bible, such as that against gay marriage and condoms, but keep the practical ones, as dictated by rational laws.
In today’s world, we pick and choose our biblical moralities anyway. Jesus supposedly said something to the effect of “it is harder for a rich man to get into heaven than for a camel to get through the eye of a needle”. But we celebrate the fact that in capitalism a man can get rich. Don’t get me wrong though, I’m no communist, but this just shows the contradictions that Christians ignore.
Finally, there’s the bible itself. I’m not sure why god made Shakespeare a better writer than himself, but even if there is some explanation for that, relying on a book that say its true is an epistemological black hole. It’s circular logic through and through. Some may say that god is beyond common sense, but I say those people just have none.
I’d like your opinions and comments on this, so please feel free to try and persuade me.
Good day to you my friend,
I am not going to attempt to speak for everyone here but only for myself. So please keep that in mind while reading this reply to your questions that you have asked.
You said that it is your “belief that it is because people fear death and come up with stories to make themselves less afraid of nothingness that comes after their demise.’
I am afraid of nothing but God.
I am going to first use logic in explaining this situation to help you better understand and then I will use my own personal thoughts.
Logic
Why should I be afraid? Even if I am wrong and there is just a “nothingness” as you put it, then I have nothing to fear at all. So then why would I choose to bond my self down and not do the things that I want to do?
The answer to that question is very simple. Even if the Holy Bible is just a big made up story book it is still a very wonderful guide to help the human race and society live better. It teaches us self discipline and teaches us that there is a better way to live than being self driven and egotistical. Both of these selfish traits have been the cause of some of the world’s worst people: Hitler, Napoleon, etc.
You said that If we all denounced our false gods, humanity as a whole could accomplish a lot more.
My friend I have seen people and how the live with out God. It is a horrible mess. They all have the lines that separate good and evil blurred. They do what they wish to do to best benefit them and not the masses as a whole. If you serve only your self and serve no one else Chaos will eventually follow. Then Anarchy will follow.
You said We should throw away our useless moralities of the bible, such as that against gay marriage and condoms, but keep the practical ones, as dictates by rational laws.My question to you is who decides which ones are the “rational” laws? Again this goes back to your previous comment saying that we should do away with Gods as a whole. Once the selfishness follows these laws that will be decided on as “rational” will be chosen by the most powerful to best suite their needs and desires of their black and wicked hearts while the others suffer who need those laws to keep them safe.
As for the Gay marriage… It is funny to me that most Atheists have a strong belief in the natural law of the world… then tell me why it is that humans are the only animals on the face of the planet who practice homosexuality?
Now I know the next comment you throw up will be that other animals do practice homosexuality; but by saying this you would be wrong. Other animals do this for dominance over the other one. There is no sexual drive behind it.
Being Gay is a preference that goes against the natural order of things. Two men and Two women can not breed a new human. Nature does not make this kind of mistake. It is again a personal preference that is sick and perverse that goes against the natural law.
You said In today’s world, we pick and choose our biblical moralities anyway. you know you are absolutely correct about that. Many people do and this is so very sad to me. The signs of the End of the world are at hand and the unbelievers see the signs in the very front of them yet do not see. It was warned that in the end men will be lovers and boastful of their selves. There will be false doctrine, etc.
The only true word my friend is that which is written in the Holy Bible. You follow that and only that and not what Men may say and you will find God.
As for your comment on We celebrate the fact that in capitalism a man can get rich. I can’t think of a single true Christian that celebrates men getting rich. Christians are taught, true Christians that is, that material riches are nothing. Any Christian who places material possessions above spiritual richness, is in my opinion, not a true Christian but a false guide who leads others astray from the truth that is in Jesus Christ.
As for your last comment about the bible. Well my friend I can sit here all day long saying that something does not make since but I truly doubt that you have actually taken the time to read the Bible in its entirety your self. If you were to do actual research on the Bible you would find that all of these “Contradictions” that people have found are not actually contradictions but a different meaning for a different topic, etc.
Atheist’s and unbelievers will do anything they can to convince their selves that the bible is not real and that God does not exist. Because to do so allows their selves to save themselves from the conviction that will inevitably follow a conversion to Christ that forces them to change.
All of your arguments are ones that I have heard before. And probably most people on this website. But honestly the only person who can “persuade” you to God as you put it is yourself. You have to choose to try to find a higher power.
Now let me ask you two questions if I may.
Say there is just a big nothingness after death then no big deal. But WHAT IF there is a God that watches over you? How silly will you feel if you one day when you die you realize that there is a God? What will you say to God? What can you do to explain that you had all the resources to find him but just didn’t care and chose to not believe in him?
I am not trying to make you mad but I love you enough to tell you that you ARE going to Hell if you do not change your ways and seek after Christ.
I know. I know. Typical Christian comment. But we only want to help you my friend. That is all.
Second question:
Why did you come here in the first place? There is some spark of interest in God in your heart and mind if you were brought here. If you ever do become a Christian you will come to find that there is no coincidences in Christ. God allows everything to happen. This may just be the first step to God guiding you towards him.
Who knows perhaps one day you will be a leader for the Church?
Anything is possible through God.
And for your last comment “ god is beyond common sense…”
One of the most brilliant physicists on earth has said that it is mathematically impossible for the earth to exist with out the help of a divine creator. Lets say you believe in the big bang theory. Well since science said that matter can neither be created or destroyed then where did that first piece of matter come from? Many people will say it has just always been there. LOL so funny when we say that about God, that he has always been there, that they find us ignorant. Perhaps it is because they are mad that their God is a piece of compressed matter and our God is a being with unlimited power. People will always fear thing more powerful than their selves… now that is common sense.
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With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
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Eduardo Grequi
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The eye of the needle is an old gate in Jerusalem, the saying "It is easier for a rich man to go thru the eye of the needle than go to heaven" Is a truthful saying. The eye of the needle is so many inches wide and long; a normal skinny man could easily pass thru it, however a richman by status normally ate alot; glutton alot and were most like the fattest of their time and would get stuck and suffocate in the eye of the needle. A Person of fattest class as the saying goes would not associate themselves with anyone who were less class therefore a loner.
No one can convence you if there is a God or not. Joshua McDowell in the 70's was an all out Aethiest and a law student. He set himself on a journey to prove the things of the bible were not so and in the end he went from being an aetheist to a believer and teacher of Christ. He wrote two books "EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT" and the other like the first, "MORE EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT"
I do not know if you like reading, but if you have came to conclusion that there is no God, than you must have not taken time to read the bible and proved the things are so or not.
You see young man that if you truly want to find out wether God exist you need to approach scientifically, legally etc... In fact there are so much old writings that you have to be shy of a pack not to come to a decision.
In my life over these many decades of living, I have seen people come to hate the God of the bible, because he seems to demade too much; some people later on recant their scorness and find peace.
I remember in Thialand in the mid 70's when bombs etc... were going off, that God was a reality. I have delivered many babies even though I am no doctor. When I was in Korea, I took a walk and saw so many, many, many, homeless children because the Oriental race would not take in Amerasians. But I saw a light there a retire Colonel opened his door and remained in Korea and become a refuge for countless of childre, he relied on his faith which is Jesus the Christ.
I held one of my army buddies in my army on his last breath, wounded in chest, He told me He say Jesus and closed his eyes and died. His chest was blown 70% away.
I am retired Army corpsman/nurse. Life might be unfair; but life is waht you make it
AFTER ALL I HAVE SEEN IN MY LIFE -the very things that would make me turn away from the Lord. I more turn to him and hold HIM tightly for this LIFE is so very short.
HAVE YOU EVER LOOKED UP IN THE SKY AT NIGHT AND SEE THE COUNTLESS STARS ETC.... DO you think this happened by chance? DID YOU KNOW THE BIBLE TALKS ABOUT DINOSAURS SOME VERSIONS CALLED THE CREATURES GREAT LEVIATHANS.
DID YOU KNOW THE BIBLE TALKS ABOUT THE OCEAN CURRENTS WAY BEFORE THEY WERE DISCOVERED BY MAN. INFACT THE GUY WHO DISCOVERED THEM REMEMBER THE BIBLE AND THAT IN THE SEAS THE CURRENTS WOULD TAKE MAN THRU AND FRO and set out to prove the saying wrong and found it to be true.
Even the bible talks about the world be round as the moon and the sun; Christopher Columbus if he would had read the bible would had know that it was round and that there were other places not known to the people of his time. The bible spoke of this too.
DID YOU KNOW THAT THE DREAM OF NEBUCHADNEZAR PROPHESIED SOME KINGDOMS, THAT CAME HUNDREDS OR EVEN THOUSANDS OF YEARS LATER AND DIED.
DID YOU KNOW THAT THE BIBLE ITSELF IS A COLLECTION OF 66 BOOKS. THE OLD TESTAMENT WRITTEN IN HEBREW AND ARAMAIC AND THE NEW TESTAMENT WRITTEN IN GREEK. THE BIBLE IT SELF TOOK SOME 1500 YEARS TO WRITE AND THAT THE AUTHORS OF THESE BOOKS WERE SHEPHERDS; QUEEN; LAWGIVER; PHYSCIAN; TAX COLLECTOR; A FORMER PHARISEE; THEY WERE PROPEHTS SOME OF THEM; ONE PARTICULAR WRITER WAS A SHEPHARD; A KING; AND SINGER WHO PLAYED AN INSTRUMENT.
DID YOU KNOW TODAY; THEY HAVE FOUND THE RUINS OF SODOM AND GOMORRAH? dID YOU KNOW TODAY THEY HAVE FOUND NOAH'S ARK. DID YOU KNOW TODAY, THAT A CERTAIN SECT OF ETHOPIAN JEWS CLAIMS TO BE MAINTAINING THE ARK OF THE COVENANT THAT LEFT EYGPT WHEN MOSES LEAD THE JEWS OUT OF BONDAGE.
YOU ARE ONLY 16, WHEN i BEGAN MY MILITARY LIFE I WAS 17 AND THAT WAS MANY YEARS AGO. I CAUGHT THE TELL END OF VIETNAM AND SAW MY SHARE OF PAIN, BUT TO ME AFTER STUDYINg RELENTLESSLY, I have come to a conclusion that Jesus is who He claimed himself to be the Messiah. The Saviour of Mankind.
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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wingsaseagles
Community Member
Member # 5915
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posted
Itstrue.. You do seem hostile, and i truly feel that it is because you ARE an athiest, and this gives free reign for Satan to work in you, rather than your Savior Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy spirit.
Check out this website...
http://www.everystudent.com/features/gettingconnected.html
it's not a bunch of rules, it's actually really simple!
it's the cultist religions that make it hard to "get to heaven" with their rules! But they are not of God. They are men following the teachings and doctrines of men, Not Men of God following the teachings of God's Word (the Bible) and God even warns us about that in the Bible!
Jeremiah 5:31 (King James Version)
31The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
Jeremiah 14:14 (King James Version)
14Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Matthew 7:15 (King James Version)
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
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It's time
To get down on my knees and pray
"Lord, undo me!"
Put away my flesh and bone
'Til You own this spirit through me Lord,
Undo me.
Posts: 10 | From: Casper | Registered: Jul 2006
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NLP
Advanced Member
Member # 5870
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I have to follow arcane and insane rules on earth.
There are only two “rules” the Lord wants us to follow…Love God and love your neighbor.
How are these “rules” arcane or insane?
They are the very core of the human race. Without love the world would cease to exists. If parents no longer loved their children and after they were born and they left them on the front porch, how long do you think the child will live? If everyone all of the sudden stopped loving their neighbors, how long do you think people would live? (Let the poor starve, let the diseased suffer and die, etc. etc.) Without question it is love that brings compassion that endures us as a human race. Loving God is the best way to ensure you will love your neighbor: The same way you love your parents, they may ask you to do something you don’t want or would not do otherwise; except that you love your parents and want to please them, you do it and in the end you find out they were right in asking you do a particular thing. KWIM.
I can’t speak of your analogy because it’s a difference in life styles. I am a Christian and have not been happier since becoming one. I was miserable as an “athiest”.
Surely you don’t think that all Christians live a horrible life while atheists live a life of joy? I know that both can and do live both ways.
However to answer your question:
Who do you think would have regrets if they still had a consciousness?
Neither. There is no conscious, LOL!
I am fed up with there being a burden of proof in everything but religion.
There are more things in life you don’t have proof of than things you do, but you don’t live without proof of them:
You don’t have proof you will wake up the next morning, but you still plan the night before what you will be doing the next day, right?
In the end it’s all relative!
Posts: 45 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2006
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itstrue
New Member
Member # 5927
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Kindgo: I’m not sure if I understand your first point. You seem to be saying that god picks certain people to believe in him. Also, please don’t pray for me. A recent study showed that people who were prayed for before and during surgery were actually more likely to have complications. He certainly does work in mysterious ways.
Bandit: In regard to your point that I can’t prove that god doesn’t exist, I also can’t prove that invisible, intangible pigs don’t live under my bed. Perhaps I should found a religion based on that.
NLP: That’s probably the most convincing argument I’ve heard so far. The problem with it is that in order to get to heaven, I have to follow arcane and insane rules on earth.
Lets examine this:
Steve the atheist lives a productive and enjoyable life, making a discovery that allows his name and legacy to carry on. During the time when others are at church, he rests and reflects.
Mona the Catholic becomes a nun. Her life is not enjoyable, but she believes she will be rewarded in heaven.
Both of them die. There is no god.Who do you think would have regrets if they still had a consciousness?
I know I sound overtly hostile to your ideas, but it is because I am fed up with there being a burden of proof in everthing but religion.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jul 2006
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
You might find this site interesting too. There is a lot of information about how the Bible was written, what famous ancient historians wrote about Jesus and his followers, and other things. I hope you'll check into these things. Here's a link to the site:
http://everystudent.com/features/bible.html
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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Dear "ItsTrue" the reason I took the 'Leap' is because It Is True ![[Smile]](smile.gif) The Bible is not a made up book, it's actually the most Astounding Book on the planet! In Any Other 'Religion' (and I do not believe that what I have is 'religion' but a New Life)... Not ONE of their 'holy' books has prophecy in it. The Bible is FULL of Prophecy... most have already come true, some remain to be fulfilled in the not too distant future! No Other book can make this claim.
May I challenge you to read another book? It's called "The Signature of God" written by Grant Jeffrey... here's a little blurb from his website about this book and what it contains:
quote:
Is there some way to determine the truth about God and the Bible? This book, The Signature of God, will examine incredible scientific discoveries that prove that the Bible is authoritative and inspired by God. How would God prove that the Bible was His legitimate revelation to mankind? How would God differentiate the true inspired Scriptures from the many other religious books produced by men over the centuries.
I believe that God would authenticate His own true revelation by writing His signature on the pages of His Scriptures. This signature would consist of evidence, knowledge and phenomenon in the text of the Bible that no unaided human could possibly have written. In other words, the genuine Scriptures should contain supernatural evidence within its text that no one apart from a Divine Intelligence could create.
Topics Covered in The Signature of God
1. Fascinating ancient inscriptions and manuscripts that prove the incredible historical accuracy of the Scriptures.
2. Little known archeological discoveries that provide overwhelming confirmation of the biblical accounts, including the Tower of Babel, the famine in Egypt,
3. An astonishing discovery of ancient rock inscriptions in the Sinai and Yemen that record the events of the Red Sea Crossing and the Exodus mentioning Moses, Miriam and Joseph.
4. The tremendously accurate scientific statements in the Bible that cannot be explained apart from God's inspiration.
5. These Hebrew Codes reveal the names: Hitler, Eichmann, and Anwar Sadat.
6.Throughout the Old Testament God has placed the name of Jesus - Yeshua in code, bebneath theespecially in passages that prophecy the coming Messiah.
7. The staggering phenomenon of hidden codes and mathematical patterns found in the text of the Bible that could not have been produced by human intelligence.
8. The incredible fulfillment of twenty prophecies in our generation that authenticate God's authorship of the Scriptures.
9. Ezekiel prophesied the rebirth of Israel as a nation on May 15, 1948
10.Fascinating archeological discoveries that confirm the accuracy of the Bible's statements about the falling walls of Jericho, the seal used by Baruch, the scribe who wrote the Book of Jeremiah.
11. Scriptural "coincidences" that confirm the divine inspiration of the Scriptures.
12. The phenomenon of the transformed character and lives of the writers of the Bible.
13. The unprecedented influence of the Bible on the lives of individuals, the culture, and history of the Western world.
14. Incredibly advanced medical laws and knowledge found in the Bible confirm its supernatural origin.
The evidence presented in The Signature of God provides tremendous evidence supporting the authority and inspiration of Scripture. Those who love the Word of God or anyone who wonders if they can trust the Bible need to read the thrilling information in this fascinating book.
You can find this book here:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=0921714467&cm_ven=ggl&cm_pla=Top_Titles_2&cm_ite=0921714467&afscr=1
One copy is only $4.00 (these are used copies)... OR you might be able to find it in your local library.
Here is a link to some article written by Jeffery (some from this book): http://www.grantjeffrey.com/intfra.htm
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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NLP
Advanced Member
Member # 5870
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posted
Fact.….Life is short, death is forever!
JOE the believer:
Joe dies tomorrow and God doesn’t exist. Joe will just decay and that is it! So what?!?! Big deal!! Who cares what Joe believed, nobody will be there to say "I told you so", now will they? Joe will be no worse off having believed!
STEVE the atheist:
Steve dies tomorrow and God DOES exist, but because Steve denied God; God denies Steve?
So itstrue: Who would you rather be Joe or Steve?
Common sense tells me I would much rather be Joe than Steve.
If If we all denounced our false gods, humanity as a whole could accomplish a lot more.
International Red Cross: Created by Jean Henri Dunant (Christian)
Salvation Army: Created by William Booth (Christian)
St. Jude’s Children Hospital: Created by Danny Thomas (Christian)
I can continue but I think you get my the point.
A Christian’s religious convictions create these and if they had just "denounced their false god" they would have never been compelled to start such ridiculous "humanity type" organizations, right?...And we would be soooo much better off at this point.
My point is "itstrue" is that there is no greater humanitarian than those that are of the Christian faith.
Posts: 45 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2006
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Bandit
Advanced Member
Member # 3643
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by itstrue:
Hello believers, I am a 16 year old atheist. I was wondering why you all choose to believe. Kant once said that religion requires a leap of faith, but I have always wondered, “Why make the leap?” It is my beleif that it is because people fear death and come up with stories to make themselves less afraid of the nothingness that comes after their demise. If we all denounced our false gods, humanity as a whole could accomplish a lot more. We should throw away our useless moralities of the bible, such as that against gay marriage and condoms, but keep the practical ones, as dictated by rational laws.
In today’s world, we pick and choose our biblical moralities anyway. Jesus supposedly said something to the effect of “it is harder for a rich man to get into heaven than for a camel to get through the eye of a needle”. But we celebrate the fact that in capitalism a man can get rich. Don’t get me wrong though, I’m no communist, but this just shows the contradictions that Christians ignore.
Finally, there’s the bible itself. I’m not sure why god made Shakespeare a better writer than himself, but even if there is some explanation for that, relying on a book that say its true is an epistemological black hole. It’s circular logic through and through. Some may say that god is beyond common sense, but I say those people just have none.
I’d like your opinions and comments on this, so please feel free to try and persuade me.
Hello itstrue,
Why I choose to believe is because I do not believe in chance. If you do not believe in a Creator, then you believe in evolution, and evolution violates the most fundamental law of physics, so science, true science, says evolution can’t happen (regardless of what the popular media portrays). And it has always been true that people pick their moral values, but if there is a Creator, then He defines moral absolutes. Those who recognize the existence of the Creator also recognize His moral absolutes: like murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, lying is wrong, etc.
So, can you prove there is no God? If you can’t, and I kind of suspect you can’t, then you need to consider the possibility that there is a God. And if there is a God, and if He wants to be found by those in His creation who seek Him out, then I would suggest taking a good, hard gander for Him.
It is very easy to lie to one’s self and say there is no God. All such a one is doing is saying that they have chosen to live how they want to live, and that they refuse to come under the authority of a higher moral authority. But if there is a God, then eventually all will come under His authority. It is much better to make that decision now, than to have it crammed down one’s throat after it is too late. You have but one life - you had better make darn sure that you make the right decision. And even though you are 16, don’t think that you have all the time in the world to seek God. Many die young, and experience has shown us that the longer one resists searching for God, the harder it is for them to start searching.
Remember, if He exists, then the ultimate burden is upon Him to reveal Himself. But if you are unwilling to look for Him, then the blame is on you. The fact that you are here says that at some level you are willing to consider the evidence. But let’s think about this, if a man suspects that a great treasure is buried in a field, will he not go to great lengths to find that treasure? If there is a Creator, then He is truly the greatest treasure you could ever find. So the question is, are you willing to gamble some time and put forth some effort to potentially make the greatest find one could ever make? The choice is yours.
Bandit
Posts: 113 | From: Melbourne, Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
I was wondering why you all choose to believe?
No one, fallen person would choose God if left to himself.
God does not actively suppress faith in non-believers or those whom He does not choose. He simply passes over them.
He actively works faith into the hearts of those whom He chooses, offering His grace, mercy and love.
Since we are all sinners and deserve death God is just in doing so. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23) and "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through our Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).
It is important to point out that the Bible speaks in terms of "justice" and not in terms of "fairness."
quote:
I have always wondered, “Why make the leap?” It is my beleif that it is because people fear death and come up with stories to make themselves less afraid of the nothingness that comes after their demise.
What if you are wrong and I am right? If there is no god you have nothing to loose, BUT if you die and there is a god..you will go to hell and suffer forever more.,,whereas I will be in Heaven forever more. Its not rocket science. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
I am praying for you young one.
![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
Jesus is real! Jesus is God! Jesus is coming soon! ![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
You need to ask Him to save you from your sins, and to shed His grace on you.
If you don't you may never have another chanch/ ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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itstrue
New Member
Member # 5927
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posted
Hello believers, I am a 16 year old atheist. I was wondering why you all choose to believe. Kant once said that religion requires a leap of faith, but I have always wondered, “Why make the leap?” It is my beleif that it is because people fear death and come up with stories to make themselves less afraid of the nothingness that comes after their demise. If we all denounced our false gods, humanity as a whole could accomplish a lot more. We should throw away our useless moralities of the bible, such as that against gay marriage and condoms, but keep the practical ones, as dictated by rational laws.
In today’s world, we pick and choose our biblical moralities anyway. Jesus supposedly said something to the effect of “it is harder for a rich man to get into heaven than for a camel to get through the eye of a needle”. But we celebrate the fact that in capitalism a man can get rich. Don’t get me wrong though, I’m no communist, but this just shows the contradictions that Christians ignore.
Finally, there’s the bible itself. I’m not sure why god made Shakespeare a better writer than himself, but even if there is some explanation for that, relying on a book that say its true is an epistemological black hole. It’s circular logic through and through. Some may say that god is beyond common sense, but I say those people just have none.
I’d like your opinions and comments on this, so please feel free to try and persuade me.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jul 2006
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