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Author
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Topic: Legalism. Why people dont go to church.
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
In prayer and reading the Bible He lead me to read Isaiah 30.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I about choked on my drink of water.
To comfort me the Lord lead me to the same chapter in Isaiah! It was like He was saying "Here, I hid this for you until you needed it." ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Isaiah 30:15 "For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel:
'In returning and rest you shall be saved;
In quietness and confidence shall be your strength.'"
And I said, "Yes Lord. I will."
Aaron
Thanks so much for your testimony. I'm amazed a times what the Lord "hides" until we are ready to "see" it.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
White Eagle: I appreciated your testimony here. The thing that stood out to me the most is that you were seeking HIM... and through prayer and HIS word HE led you right where you needed to be in knowledge and understanding.
I am confident that we can and do error from time to time in our understanding; we can head down into Egypt... but if in our hearts.. in the inner most part of our being our deisre is for HIM and for TRUTH, HE will not let us get too far before HE flahes the Light and signals us back onto the right path.. I picture it like a lighthouse beacon... that says over here this is the way...get back over here...Or the Shepherds staff that reaches out and pulls you back where there is safety. (Sorry very visual here)
GOD is sooo Good in this way.
I love these verses in this regard:
Pr 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
2Th 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
Pr 11:5 The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness.
Yes , I agree, that God is able to show the way if we seek his face. We are going to a church that actually preaches the gospel and preaches about Jesus' ministry.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358
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posted
quote:
Indeed I am, brother. Indeed I am.
But regarding the "pulpit" I see it as a type of high place the people have erected. Releasing it to me would mark its eventual tearing down and an end to the religious event they affectionately call "church".
I hear you...
It seems we are at a similar place right now.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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Aaron
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Aaron, you do not need to have pulpit "released" to you. Perhaps you are being called to pastor a new church. I suggest you seek the Lord about this. ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
Indeed I am, brother. Indeed I am.
But regarding the "pulpit" I see it as a type of high place the people have erected. Releasing it to me would mark its eventual tearing down and an end to the religious event they affectionately call "church".
Blessings,
Aaron
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trafield
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Member # 5358
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posted
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Since that time God has taught us much about loving one another in-Christ and what I means to be the sons of God. To this day we continue to meet with other saints in each other's homes. The Lord has added to our numbers only slightly. And it is about every day one of us hears some well-meaning brother or sister encourage us to "come home" and sit in the pews again. I like to think I will return only when they release their pulpit to me and allow me to teach what the Lord is saying in this season. I have yet to receive such an invitation.
Aaron, you do not need to have pulpit "released" to you. Perhaps you are being called to pastor a new church. I suggest you seek the Lord about this.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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Aaron
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
In prayer and reading the Bible He lead me to read Isaiah 30.
I about choked on my drink of water.
To comfort me the Lord lead me to the same chapter in Isaiah! It was like He was saying "Here, I hid this for you until you needed it."
Isaiah 30:15 "For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel:
'In returning and rest you shall be saved;
In quietness and confidence shall be your strength.'"
And I said, "Yes Lord. I will."
Aaron
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
White Eagle: I appreciated your testimony here. The thing that stood out to me the most is that you were seeking HIM... and through prayer and HIS word HE led you right where you needed to be in knowledge and understanding.
I am confident that we can and do error from time to time in our understanding; we can head down into Egypt... but if in our hearts.. in the inner most part of our being our deisre is for HIM and for TRUTH, HE will not let us get too far before HE flahes the Light and signals us back onto the right path.. I picture it like a lighthouse beacon... that says over here this is the way...get back over here...Or the Shepherds staff that reaches out and pulls you back where there is safety. (Sorry very visual here)
GOD is sooo Good in this way.
I love these verses in this regard:
Pr 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
2Th 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
Pr 11:5 The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
I've found out that there are many "types" of legalism.
My husband and I recently stopped attending a church that was supposed to be a Spirit filled church and it did preach Christ, but the more we went the more we sensed that something was not quite right there.
The pastors at first seemed loving and Bible based, and the pastor's wife was a self-proclaimed prophet. We took that with much sceptism at first and then it appeared to us that she was a real prophet. All the other members seemed very caring and loving on Sunday mornings but one never heard from them during the week and whenever I called the pastors, it seemed to depend on their mood if they felt like acting like a pastor or just blow me off.
At the end it was obvious to us that the church as all based on the belief that the pastor's wife was a true prophet and everything revolved around her. The gospel was about "freedom" but Salvation messages were never preached. Many people in the church tried to emulate her and we often had several "Words from the Lord" on Sunday morning and never got a real sermon preached. Much, if not all of the so called words from the Lord, didn't not bear my husband and I any true witness. It all about the pastor and his wife, and their ministry. The pastor's wife even tried to take credit for a prayer meeting that my husband and his two friends had been doing together for several years even before we knew her. She is totally self-centered about her ministry. She was overbearing and abusive toward the congregation and did much emotional damage to several people there, but no one seems to be able to see that except for another couple who are also planning to leave soon.
Anyway, I guess my point is that; even though this church had the illusion of appearing to be spirit filled and loving and non-legalistic, it was legalistic in another way as the pastors are controlling people who used the church members for their own benefit. They frequently gossiped about things that should be confidential.
They seemed totally ignorant of any common sense regarding how to treat people with respect.
I thank the Lord that He brought me up short one day when I was agonizing over their behaviors and about my own behaviors. In prayer and reading the Bible He lead me to read Isaiah 30. I know it might not make sense to anyone but me, but it made me see how I was relying on those pastors and their supposed wisdom. I was going down to Egypt. Instead of freedom I was going into another bondage. I have a repentance to do and am in that process. God told me to wait on Him. He has mercy. Do not believe what any man has to say. Do not rely on man, even a supposed godly person if they are not showing the true fruit of the spirit.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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Aaron
unregistered
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posted
Hello gentlemen (and gentle-ladies if you are present),
About 5 years ago I sent a letter to the "church board" stating my intention to withdraw my and my wife's name from the membership roster. For a number of reasons, and primarily because God was telling us to, we walked away from friends and family and ventured out into a desert experience free from the predictability, and "pew ambiguity", of "church".
Since that time God has taught us much about loving one another in-Christ and what it means to be the sons of God. To this day we continue to meet with other saints in each other's homes. The Lord has added to our numbers only slightly. And it is about every day one of us hears some well-meaning brother or sister encourage us to "come home" and sit in the pews again. I like to think I will return only when they release their pulpit to me and allow me to teach what the Lord is saying in this season. I have yet to receive such an invitation.
The Lord is good. And He has a tremendous zeal for the saints. Continue to trust in Him and He will lead you to where you need to go.
Bless you,
Aaron
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trafield
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Member # 5358
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posted
quote:
Everything God has done, is doing, and will do is aimed at bringing us deeper into Christ, to finish what was begun in us when we first received Him. God is the One Who brings us through the Gate, and God is the One Who leads us along the Path. Everything God has done, is doing, and will do has the same purpose, and that purpose explains everything you have been through, everything you are going through, and everything you will go through.
Amen, David!
It is all about Him! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
Good article on this subject:
The Crisis Of A Christless Christianity
"As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in Him… beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And you are complete in Him…" (Colossians 2:6,8,9a)
The Christian life is a life that is lived IN CHRIST. That is to say, to walk IN HIM is to live as a Christian. Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship. A Christian is a branch that grows out of the Vine and continually produces abundant fruit for the Husbandman. The Church is the gathering together of all individual branches into one Vineyard (see John 15). In this metaphor we see that Christianity is supposed to be a living phenomenon, an observable reality, not a religious philosophy or set of teachings.
As we first received the Lord Jesus, so we continue to walk in the Lord Jesus. Receiving Christ is the Gate, but walking in Him as we have received Him is the Path. The Gate is an event, while the Path is a process. The Gate is for entering, while the Path is for walking.
Everything God has done, is doing, and will do is aimed at bringing us deeper into Christ, to finish what was begun in us when we first received Him. God is the One Who brings us through the Gate, and God is the One Who leads us along the Path. Everything God has done, is doing, and will do has the same purpose, and that purpose explains everything you have been through, everything you are going through, and everything you will go through.
Jesus is the Alpha from Whom all things in God are initiated, and Jesus is the Omega unto Whom all things of God find their purpose, their meaning, and their reason for being. Everything begins in Christ, and everything ends in Christ. He is the Beginning as well as the End.
Real spiritual growth occurs when we realize that God has only one goal for us, and that is, the full, mature, complete, and experiential knowledge of Jesus Christ. To the extent that we discard "things" and become focused wholly on Christ, to that extent we will make progress.
Read the entire article - click here
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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trafield
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Member # 5358
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posted
Again, I agree.
If a church is all "religion" and no "relationship," then it is time to find a group of believers who also want to focus on their relationship with Jesus Christ.
What is most important is Jesus Christ and being all he wants us to be so that we can overflow with the power of the Holy Spirit and be the light that leads others to a saving Grace.
I had rejected becoming a part of one particular church after going a few months in my area that had good teaching, and taught the full counsel of God, but had not love. When I say this, I mean that I had seen this in the leadership of this particular church.
Praise God, that we have recently found a loving church with the right priorities...but it wasn't easy and took a long and responsible search.
And I am sure there will also be some at this church who are love-challenged. But I have discovered this church is led by those who focus on our relationship to Jesus Christ and not on a "religious" social club, and so I will not let others who may not have yet yet matured in Christ keep me from growning in my relationship with my Lord and Saviour.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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decibel
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Member # 4737
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bandit:
I am not ever going to give up on God, but giving up on organized church - that is another story. I am almost to the point of swearing off church (at least all the local one's I am familiar with).
I know many people, myself included, who are in the same boat you are in and have been this way for several years now.
The surprising thing to me is that it is not just one age group. It spans from youth, to 65 year olds.
It seems to me like God is searching out His true children. The ones who honestly want to maintain a real relationship with Him will do what He says and leads. Even if that means leaving 'church' as a religion.
That is what God asked me to do over 5 years ago. I was heavily involved in church but then I became complacent and God gave me the choice to stay and continue down this path, or leave and trust that He would provide me with the friends and support/fellowship I needed to truly grow in Him.
Now I do not recommended this for everybody, because it has been tough, but I would recommend asking God what is best in each case and for each person. He made you so, He knows what is best for each individual.
The reason why God pulled me out of organized church was so that I could have the religiosity that consumed me stripped away. Since then I have had an open and honest relationship with Yeshua and other brothers and sisters. My relationship with God is stronger than it has ever been and I now realize even though I was perceived as a model Christian and leader, I was only fooling myself and those around me.
The only verse that anyone ever used against me for not going regularly to church was;
Hebrews 10:25
Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
However when I told them God had pulled me out for a reason and I now have a closer relationship with Yeshua, they didn't want to hear it. Not surprising. Now please don't get me wrong, I am not alone. God has blessed me with a great group of people outside of organized 'church' with whom we have fellowship with each other and Yeshua.
Bandit I do know what you mean when it comes to the kids. Several relatives of mine really only go to church as well for their children, so they will have a good moral support.
quote:
As the years have gone by, the more I understand Jesus and His teaching, the more I see that most churches and denominations have polluted His teaching with their own doctrines - and I'm tired of it. The religious order of Christ's day crucified Him, and the religious order of our day twists and waters down His teaching to suit their own desires. I have no desire to be a part of such nonsense. I simply want to read the word and believe as the Lord leads. I do not need the approval of any particular group of men to do that. And I know that there are many others who share in what I say.
I completely agree!!
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Trust Me, Not What You See!!
Yeshua
Posts: 21 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jun 2005
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trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358
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posted
quote:
Time is short and if you ve read the Bible you know this. Time to stop arguing amongst other Christians and start loving each other. Start loving other people.
And yeah I know I ll get flamed for my post. Most wont agree with me, alot will. But I love you anyways.
You won't get flamed from me.
I hear you, and I agree with you.
Just like your friend with the long hair, we all need to grow and be mature enough to live beyond offense because people will never always act like we expect them to act. Most do not stay around long enough when they are offended to learn if someone was just having a bad day.
However, if you do stay around and there is a pattern of pride, inconsideration, unthankfulness, especially from the leaders of the church, then it is time to find another group of believers to have real Christian fellowship.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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Bandit
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Member # 3643
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
Hi Bandit,
For many years I felt the way you do. ... But God will never let you down.
I dont believe everything that is in the by laws of the church. I believe the word of God. ...
Your comment about only being church bc of the kids really bothers me. That was the purpose of this post bc I see people like you everyday who are tired of the legalist ways of the church. And I was one of those people myself.
...
There are churches and Christians now who realize what the "church" has done in the past. And they are trying to fix it. But sadly, its not going to be easy and its not gonna happy overnight.
Like I said Bandit, dont give up on church bc of man bc he will disappoint you.
Yes, I know that God is faithful, and I know that most churches miss that mark by a long shot.
And I don't believe everything that those in the church promote, though I am willing to listen and discuss (which is usually far more than they are willing to do).
At this time I believe that it is good to have my kids in church. When they get older, I want them to stay in church, if possible, but only if they can find a half-way decent church. Above all, I want my children to be independent thinkers; people who can read the word of God for themselves, and who are not afraid to make up their own mind on an issue, even if it means taking an unpopular stand.
I am not ever going to give up on God, but giving up on organized church - that is another story. I am almost to the point of swearing off church (at least all the local one's I am familiar with). As the years have gone by, the more I understand Jesus and His teaching, the more I see that most churches and denominations have polluted His teaching with their own doctrines - and I'm tired of it. The religious order of Christ's day crucified Him, and the religious order of our day twists and waters down His teaching to suit their own desires. I have no desire to be a part of such nonsense. I simply want to read the word and believe as the Lord leads. I do not need the approval of any particular group of men to do that. And I know that there are many others who share in what I say.
Sincerely,
Bandit
Posts: 113 | From: Melbourne, Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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shadowmaker
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Member # 3696
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posted
Hi Bandit,
For many years I felt the way you do. What Ive done, is I believe the word of God, not the word of man. Something that someone told me one time has helped me to over look alot of things that happen in the church. Man, that means your spouse, best friend, family, the pastor, etc etc will disappoint you and let you down. But God will never let you down.
I dont believe everything that is in the by laws of the church. I believe the word of God. I dont get mad and argue, I pray and let God show me the answer. Bc if you really want to know and you pray about it, God will reveal the answer to you.
Your comment about only being church bc of the kids really bothers me. That was the purpose of this post bc I see people like you everyday who are tired of the legalist ways of the church. And I was one of those people myself.
The church I go to now is so unique, its unreal. Pre-trib, once save always saved, old hymns or new christian music, nice clothes or jeans, white, black, hispanic, bapitisted or not, sprinkled or dunked, long hair or short, tattood, body pierced, whatever, its not an issue. All people are welcomed. Bc we know the only way to heaven is thru Jesus Christ.
Theres a guy where I work who is heavily tattood. He told a lady there that he was a Christian and he went to our church. She approached me and expressed her disbelief that we would even allow him in our church. I m glad he found our church and didnt end up going to hell bc of another one.
There are churches and Christians now who realize what the "church" has done in the past. And they are trying to fix it. But sadly, its not going to be easy and its not gonna happy overnight.
Like I said Bandit, dont give up on church bc of man bc he will disappoint you.
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Bandit
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Member # 3643
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
Ok, on my soap box.
We as Christians, need to think why people wont come to church. Ever wonder why a person who was so faithful one day just stopped? Ever wonder why someone goes as a kid and teenager and then as an adult wont.
Hello Shadow,
I am still in church, but pretty much only for my kids. The problem I have is with the control and censorship which I have seen in almost every church I have ever attended.
Here is my perspective. When and if someone finally digs deep into the scriptures, and actually sets about to find, as best they can, what the scriptures teach (apart from what their church may want them to think), then the problems start. Most churches are run by a relatively small group of men (and/or women) who want to control what others think on certain issues. When someone begins thinking outside the box, they become a threat to the status quo. And that is when the censorship begins.
I know that churches must have some teachings to which they hold, but some required beliefs are very stupid and biblically unprovable (like saying that everyone must believe in the pre-trib rapture or once saved always saved). So this is my soapbox.
Bandit
Posts: 113 | From: Melbourne, Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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shadowmaker
Advanced Member
Member # 3696
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posted
Ok, on my soap box.
We as Christians, need to think why people wont come to church. Ever wonder why a person who was so faithful one day just stopped? Ever wonder why someone goes as a kid and teenager and then as an adult wont.
More than likely, someone somewhere said or did something and made em mad. (No, I m not talking about getting your toes stepped on in a message.) Maybe said something about the way they dressed coming to church. My grandmother did this to me. She was more worried that I may have wore a Tshirt to church instead of a dress shirt and pants. Tried telling me that it was wrong. Well, sorry to break it to you but they didnt have all those fancy clothes when Jesus was here. I m sure a burlap sack and a piece of rope was common.
Or how bout the guy I work with who has long hair. Pastor wouldnt give him a sunday school class bc it was too long. But I ve seen him reach people that others couldnt. Didnt take the pastor long to see this. Luckily, the guy was a strong Christian and didnt let this bother him.
The "church" is too worried about playing God, judging people, and making rules to fit their own personal beliefs instead of God's. The way I feel about this is God wont judge me until I m dead, so why should the people in the church.
We as christians need to start loving people and stop judging them. Stop being a pharosee.
I stopped going to church about 15 yrs ago partly bc of a pastor. My wife had left me, my job was bad, I was mowing the church grass just to have money to eat, and he knew all this. When I got sick with brochitits and my weedeater broke, I called him. No compassion for me being sick and when I said I didnt have the money to fix the weedeater, he said "BUY A NEW ONE". I didnt come to church for 6 months and not one phone call from him or anyone else. Boy, I m glad God didnt turn his back on me, even after I stopped going to church.
What about people with tattoos? Christians take the verus in Lev. and try to say tattoos are wrong. But that verus isnt talking bout tattoos. Of course the "church" has used this to say its wrong. Ever think they can reach people that you cant? Or the guy with the harley? Christians dont ride harleys. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) But the Christian on that harley with all his tatoos can lead unsaved tattood harley riders to Christ.
I ve always heard that once you were saved, you shouldnt hang around your unsaved friends and be around all the sinners. But why? How will you ever reach them if youre not around em. Jesus didnt turn his back on them. Not associating with the unsaved sends the message you think you are better than them. No way, you ll ever be able to reach them. But if you show love, show youre still their friend. They will see the change. I stopped hanging with some of my friends bc I was told "darkness and light can dwellth together." Well thats partly true. But how can you shed some light on darkness if you dont go into it.
Its not our job or mission to judge what someone does. We re suppose to love them. Being a christian is fun and I m teaching my kids that. Nothing wrong with going to the movies, going camping and fishing, nothing wrong with letting them wear jeans and a tshirt to church. Nothing wrong with women wearing pants to church. I sure dont want to answer to God for the woman who stopped coming to church bc I told her she couldnt wear pants on her first Sunday in church. And music, where does it say we have to have ALL the old hymns? Yes thats ok but youre not going to get the younger crowd in church playing all old hymns. So what if its christian rock or even rap. Rap isnt my thing and I dont like it. But if a christian rapper is rapping to God, saving people, how can you say its wrong?
I invited a guy at work to church and he was talking about not having any nice clothes. He couldnt believe it when I told him he could wear his maintenance uniform to work and no one would think anything of it. How many churches have turned people from church simply over clothes?
Think about. Are you telling someone something is wrong bc YOU dont like it? Churches break up over stupid things, like someone wanted green toliet paper instead of blue. It snowballs from there.
Time is short and if you ve read the Bible you know this. Time to stop arguing amongst other Christians and start loving each other. Start loving other people.
And yeah I know I ll get flamed for my post. Most wont agree with me, alot will. But I love you anyways. ![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif) ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jul 2004
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