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Topic: Is this a contradiction?
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epouraniois
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THE SYNONYMOUS WORDS FOR "HELL", ETC.
appendix 131 of the Companion Bible
"Hell" is the English rendering of two different Greek words in the N.T.
The English word is from the Anglo-Saxon hel, Genitive case helle = a hidden place, from the Anglo-Saxon helan = to hide.
It is in the N.T. used as the translation of two Greek words :--
I. Gehenna. Gr. geenna. This is the transliteration of the Heb. Gai' Hinnom, i.e. the Valley of Hinnom or "the Valley" of [the sons of] Hinnom, where were the fires through which children were passed in the worship of Moloch.
In the O.T. Tophet was the Heb. word used, because it was a place in this valley.
In our Lord's day the idolatry had ceased, but the fires were still continually burning there for the destruction of the refuse of Jerusalem. Hence, geenna was used for the fires of destruction associated with the judgment of God. Sometimes, "geenna of fire". See 2Kings 23:10. Isa. 30:33. Jer. 7:31, 32; 19:11-14.
Geenna occurs 12 times, and is always rendered "hell", viz. Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33. Mark 9:45, 47. Luke 12:5. Jas. 3:6.
II. Hades. Gr. hades, from a (privative) and idein, to see (Ap. 133. I. i); used by the Greeks for the unseen world.
The meaning which the Greeks put upon it does not concern us; nor have we anything to do with the imaginations of the heathen, or the traditions of Jews or Romanists, or the teachings of demons or evil spirits, or of any who still cling to them.
The Holy Spirit has used it as one of the "words pertaining to the earth", and in so doing has "purified" it, "as silver tried in a furnace" (see notes on Ps. 12:6). From this we learn that His own words "are pure", but words belonging to this earth have to be "purified".
The Old Testament is the fountain head of the Hebrew language. It has no literature behind it. But the case is entirely different with the Greek language. The Hebrew Sheol is a word Divine in its origin and usage. The Greek Hades is human in its origin and comes down to us laden with centuries of development, in which it has acquired new senses, meanings, and usages.
Seeing that the Holy Spirit has used it in Acts 2:27, 31 as His own equivalent of Sheol in Psalm 16:10, He has settled, once for all, the sense in which we are to understand it. The meaning He has given to Sheol in Ps. 16:10 is the one meaning we are to give it wherever it occurs in the N.T., whether we transliterate it or translate it. We have no liberty to do otherwise, and must discard everything outside the Word of God.
The word occurs eleven times (Matt. 11:23; 16:18. Luke 10:15; 16:23. Acts 2:27, 31. 1Cor. 15:55. Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14); and is rendered "hell" in every passage except one, where it is rendered "grave" (1Cor. 15:55, marg. "hell").
In the R.V. the word is always transliterated "Hades", except in 1Cor. 15:55 (where "death" is substituted because of the reading, in all the texts, of thanate for hade), and in the American R.V. also.
As Hades is the Divine Scriptural equivalent of Sheol, further light may be gained from Ap. 35, and a reference to the 65 passages there given. It may be well to note that while "Hades" is rendered "hell" in the N.T. (except once, where the rendering "the grave" could not be avoided), Sheol, its Hebrew equivalent, occurs 65 times, and is rendered "the grave" 31 times (or 54%); "hell" 31 times (4 times with margin "the grave", reducing it to 41.5%); and "pit" only 3 times (or 4.5 %).
"The grave", therefore, is obviously the best rendering, meaning the state of death (Germ. sterbend, for which we have no English equivalent); not the act of dying, as an examination of all the occurrences of both words will show.
1. The rendering "pit" so evidently means "the grave" that it may at once be substituted for it (Num. 16:30, 33. Job 17:16).
2. The rendering "the grave" (not "a grave", which is Hebrew keber or bor) exactly expresses the meaning of both Sheol and Hades. For, as to direction, it is always down: as to place, it is in the earth: as to relation, it is always in contrast with the state of the living (Deut. 32:22-25 and 1Sam. 2:6-8); as to association, it is connected with mourning (Gen. 37:34, 35), sorrow (Gen. 42:38. 2Sam. 22:6. Ps. 18:5; 116:3), fright and terror (Num. 16:27, 34) mourning (Isa. 38:3, 10, 17, 18), silence (Ps. 6:5; 31:17. Ecc. 9:10), no knowledge (Ecc. 9:5, 6, 10), punishment (Num. 16:29, 34. 1Kings 2:6, 9. Job 24:19. Ps. 9:17 (R.V. = re-turned), corruption (Ps. 16:10. Acts 2:27, 31); as to duration resurrection is the only exit from it (Ps. 16:11. Acts 2:27, 31; 13:33-37. 1Cor. 15:55. Rev. 1:18; 20:5, 13, 14).
III. Tartaroo (occurs only in 2Pet. 2:4) = to thrust down to Tartarus, Tartarus being a Greek word, not used elsewhere, or at all in the Sept. Homer describes it as subterranean (cp. Deut. 32:22, which may refer to this). The Homeric Tartarus is the prison of the Titans, or giants (cp. Heb. Rephaim, Ap. 25), who rebelled against Zeus.
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epouraniois
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expounding upon what happens a bit, yet soon i think a post on resurrection is at work;
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God
Paul readily speaks to this:
1Co 3:5
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered;
but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth;
but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one:
and every man
shall receive
his own reward
according to his own labor.
9 For we are laborers together with God: ye {speaking to the Hebrews} are God's husbandry, ye are God's building {church body as well Eph.2.19-22}.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it,
because
it shall be revealed by fire;
and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive
a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned,
he shall suffer loss:
but he himself shall be saved;
yet so as by fire.
If I read correctly, hell is simply the word for grave, or pit, and is rendered from the Hebrew word sheol:
"SHEOL". HEBREW, SHEOL, HELL.
The first occurrence of this word is in Gen. 37:35, where it is rendered "grave". It occurs sixty-five times in the Hebrew of the Old Testament; and only by studying each passage by itself can the student hope to gather the Biblical usage of the word. All heathen or traditional usages are not only worthless, but mischievous. The following are all the passages where the word "Sheol" occurs, with the rendering in each passage indicated thus : 1 = grave, 2 = pit, 3 = hell.
1. Gen. 37:35.
3. Ps. 18:5.
1. Ecc. 9:10.
1. Gen. 42:38.
1. Ps. 30:3.
1. Song 8:6.
1. Gen. 44:29, 31.
1. Ps. 31:17.
3. Isa. 5:14.
2. Num. 16:30, 33.
1. Ps. 49:14, 14, 15.
3. Isa. 14:9 (marg. grave).
3. Deut. 32:22.
3. Ps. 55:15 (marg. grave).
1. Isa. 14:11.
1. 1Sam. 2:6.
3. Ps. 86:13 (marg. grave).
3. Isa. 14:15.
3. 2Sam. 22:6.
1. Ps. 88:3.
3. Isa. 28:15, 18.
1. 1Kings 2:6, 9.
1. Ps. 89:48.
1. Isa. 38:10.
1. Job 7:9.
3. Ps. 116:3.
1. Isa. 38:18.
3. Job 11:8.
3. Ps. 139:8.
3. Isa. 57:9.
1. Job 14:13.
1. Ps. 141.7.
1. Ezek. 31:15.
1. Job 17:13.
1. Prov. 1:12.
3. Ezek. 31:16, 17.
2. Job 17:16.
3. Prov. 5.5.
3. Ezek. 32:21, 27.
1. Job 21:13.
3. Prov. 7:27.
1. Hos. 13:14, 14.
1. Job 24:19.
3. Prov. 9:18.
3. Amos 9:2.
3. Job 26:6.
3. Prov. 15:11, 24.
3. Jonah 2:2 (marg. grave).
1. Ps. 6:5.
3. Prov. 23:14.
3. Hab. 2:5.
3. Ps. 9:17.
3. Prov. 27:20.
3. Ps. 16:10.
1. Prov. 30:16.
As meaning "THE grave," it is to be distinguished from keber, A grave, or, burying-place (from kabar, to bury, first occurrence Gen. 23:4) : and bor, a pit, generally hewn in the rock, hence used of a cistern (Gen. 37:20) or a dungeon, &c., when dry. (See note on the word "well" in Gen. 21:19.)
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Kindgo
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The body of the person who is lost -that is, who has refused to accept Christ as Savior-will be resurrected from the grave.
The body will be supernatural and indestructible. It will join with the person's soul for eternity. This is the second death. The prophetic Word says:
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:12-15).
Yet, it is a state of dying eternally; death will never be achieved. Jesus warned about those headed for eternity apart from God:
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43-48). Jesus says three times that the people in Hell will never die.
So, it is tremendously serious in His view. The "worm" here means the part of the individual that is the real him or her -his or her core being. The Word of God says further to indicate the never-ending nature of torture in Hell:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Rev. 20:10).
We are brought into this earthly world as eternal beings. Our life here is simply a stop in God's plan.
We cannot, with our human minds, even begin to get a glimmer of what Heaven and Hell are really like.
The only thing that we can comprehend, if we are willing to, is that each and every single one of us is created by The Father. His wish is that "none of us should perish, but that all receive the Kingdom."
However, because of that great love that the Father has for us, His children, He gives us free will.
The term "free will" is thrown around regularly by Christians. My take on what that really means is this: The reason that humans pro-create the way we do is so that we may have some small, miniscule idea of what we mean to God. As much as we love our children He loves us, plus infinity.
That loves keeps God from being able to control our will; just as we want our children to come to us willingly and lovingly, God wants us to come to him that way. He has given us the choice.
We have two of them...Heaven or Hell. It's that simple and it is "forever" because God is forever. He doesn't send anyone there; we choose our final home. Hell has to be forever because Heaven is forever. What would be the reason for anyone to choose Heaven if we knew we would eventually "get out" of Hell? Hell is a natural consequence of a choice we make...
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
If the burning bush never burned up, I would think that those that are cast in hell burn for ever and ever. So I don't believe there will be ash to find as it just continues to burn.
Wow! That is a very powerful visual and definetly something to think about David. Thank you for posting this.
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epouraniois
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2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
God has revealed Himself within what is written, and there is no other purpose for study than to get to know Him. To acknowledge God's interpretation of His plan of the agetimes, and to know Him by that which is written as He has chosen to reveal Himself therein.
“And ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me WITH ALL YOUR HEART” (Jeremiah 29:13)
"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter" (Prov 25:2)
"Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (Joh 5:39)
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Chaplain Bob
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quote:
Originally posted by Duke:
Blackdiamond I have to agree with you! I personally do not believe in hell as I do not believe the bible supports it.
The fact that you do not believe in it is not going to make it disappear. There are 12 verses in the New Testament that make reference to Hell (Gehenna) as a place of eternal punishment and that some people will be assigned to it. Grab your concordance and check it out.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
Posts: 209 | From: Checotah, Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2005
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Chaplain Bob
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quote:
How do the following verses agree, or disagree, with Revelation 14:11?
Psa 9:5 KJVR Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name forever and ever.
Psa 37:38 KJVR But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psa 92:7 KJVR When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed forever:
Ecc 9:5 NIV For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. [/QB]
These verses refer to life on this or the New Earth in Eternity. It is not evidence of annihilation.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
Posts: 209 | From: Checotah, Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2005
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Duke
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Blackdiamond I have to agree with you! I personally do not believe in hell as I do not believe the bible supports it.
Its with things like this that we truely do need to study the scripture and seek them out. I often feel it is these examples that made Paul say to Examine the scripturs daily.
Now I don't know about you, but when I see the word "examine" I think of study, not just reading, not glancing, but indeapth study!
Christ said "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your strength, with all your soul and with all your mind! the key word here being mind!
Proverbs 22:5 says Thorns and thistles will step in the way of the rightous, but he who gaurdes his sould will be far from them.
How do we gaurd our soul? There is only one way my friend and that is through Christ and an examination of the scripture. We cannot fully understand Christ without reading the scripture!
I do not believe there are any mysteries to the bible other then one! That would be the day or the hour of Christ's return. Neither do I believe that faith is blind, but rather knowing.
Knowing that God and Christ exsist and following while not seeing seems to be the best way to say it! And that my friend is not blind!
When we truely come into Salvation through Christ Jesus I think we turn to his scripture as its his instruction to us.
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KnowHim
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by blackdiamond
First, if someone told me that something was destroyed by fire, I wouldn't go looking for it because I would expect it to be gone, at most a pile of ashes and debris.
If the burning bush never burned up, I would think that those that are cast in hell burn for ever and ever. So I don't believe there will be ash to find as it just continues to burn.
Mark 9:46 –4 8 (KJV)
46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Where the fire never goes out is probably Mark’s explanation of Gehenna for his Roman readers. The worm (internal torment) and the unquenchable fire (external torment) (quoted from the LXX of Isa. 66:24) vividly portray the unending, conscious punishment that awaits all who refuse God’s salvation. The essence of hell is unending torment and eternal exclusion from His presence.
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by blackdiamond
Secondly, if I'm burning in eternal hell fire, it sure seems like I am still getting my "reward".
You are correct. They will not be getting a reward but they will be getting just punishment.
He will bring the people of the world before him in judgment, to receive just punishment and to prove the terrible things they have done in rebellion against God, revealing all they have said against him.” - Jude 1:15
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blackdiamond
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
Sure sounds like they all point to an eternal hell to me. Which one of them do you think does not and why?
It seems relatively simple to me, but let me explain. First, if someone told me that something was destroyed by fire, I wouldn't go looking for it because I would expect it to be gone, at most a pile of ashes and debris. Secondly, if I'm burning in eternal hell fire, it sure seems like I am still getting my "reward".
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KnowHim
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By blackdiamond
The text in Revelation is generally understood to refer to Eternal Hell Fire, yet the other texts appear to indicate that the wicked shall be "cut off", "destroyed", "destroyed forever" and have "no further reward." This seems to be a paradox to me.
Sure sounds like they all point to an eternal hell to me. Which one of them do you think does not and why?
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blackdiamond
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
Let us be content with what God *has* said, and if some lines of truth *appear* to conflict, let us not
attempt to reconcile them, for the very attempt savours of unbelief, but let us be assured that when we see the complete purpose unfolded,
all will be perfect and harmonious, and transcend the highest flight of our present imaginations.
I must admit that the word "filibuster" came to mind while reading your post.
![[BooHoo]](graemlins/boohoo.gif)
Personally I believe that the Bible doesn't have any contradiction and we are to study it to find out how it all fits together.
I agree that there are things that we cannot understand, but it sounds like you are making that a "blanket" statement for the entire Bible. What would be the point of Bible study if not to figure out what it says?
I prefer not to live with my head in the sand.
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epouraniois
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"For I am conscious of nothing in myself, nevertheless am I not justified ... So then do not judge anything before the time, until the
Lord shall come ... Learn in us the lesson of not letting your thoughts go beyond the things that are written" (1 Cor. 4. 4-6).
The Bible does not tell us, for example, what the purpose and plan of God being all and in all will have us be doing in the ages that follow Christ being the head of all things both in heaven and on earth. the Bible only tells us that until the last enemy is destroyed and it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him.
We are told that Christ created the ages. Created time. We are told the purpose of creating such. But the Bible is not about eternity in the English sense of the word. It is about the age times where man walks under the sun (in flesh bodies) and the resurrection whereby there are still the many who will need to be taught the truth of Christ Jesus, the creator/destroyer of the agetimes and their purpose(s).
It is assured, the way I see it, that there is a purpose which goes far beyond anything that has or can enter the mind of man, and that is not something which God has chosen to reveal. We are assured, that in the fullness of times, there will be, once again, time no more.
"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out. For who hath known the mind of the Lord (knowledge)? or who hath been His counsellor (wisdom)? or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again (riches)?"
From our reading of the Word we have come to see that *eternity* is nowhere its theme. The Bible is entirely taken up with the purpose of the ages. Even then we have to see that the Bible largely passes over much that we would like to know within the limits even of the ages, and focuses our attention first upon the chosen people of Israel, and for a short space upon the church of the present dispensation. Its object is not so much to explain all to us, but to guide us during this our pilgrimage with the happy knowledge that in resurrection glory we shall have time and opportunity to become acquainted with the wider revelation of God's purposes and ways.
Let us not attempt to force back the roll beyond the appointed limits. Let us be content to say of some things that we do not know, because
God has not told us. We shall be more pleasing to Him by so doing, than if we take the responsibility upon ourselves of completing the
revelation which He has purposely left unfinished. Once more we would remark that in all that we have said we desire it to be understood that
we are not questioning or doubting God's Holy Word, but rather bow before His sovereignty, acknowledging with grateful love the absolute
inspiration of all that He *has* revealed, and acknowledging equally the sovereign wisdom that lies behind the withholding of much that we
might have expected to be written.
Let us keep close to what is written. Let us be content with what God *has* said, and if some lines of truth *appear* to conflict, let us not
attempt to reconcile them, for the very attempt savours of unbelief, but let us be assured that when we see the complete purpose unfolded,
all will be perfect and harmonious, and transcend the highest flight of our present imaginations.
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Hitch
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Hmmm Isnt that kinda like saying the Bible isnt true because it says the sun rises?
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blackdiamond
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quote:
Originally posted by Hitch:
I cant figure out what it is you're asking. [/QB]
The text in Revelation is generally understood to refer to Eternal Hell Fire, yet the other texts appear to indicate that the wicked shall be "cut off", "destroyed", "destroyed forever" and have "no further reward." This seems to be a paradox to me.
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Hitch
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quote:
Originally posted by blackdiamond:
Since this board doesn't seem to show how many "views" there have been for a given topic, I can't tell if anyone has taken a look at this or simply has nothing to say.
I updated the subject as I wasn't sure what to call it the first time.
![[dance]](graemlins/dance1.gif)
I cant figure out what it is you're asking.
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blackdiamond
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Since this board doesn't seem to show how many "views" there have been for a given topic, I can't tell if anyone has taken a look at this or simply has nothing to say.
I updated the subject as I wasn't sure what to call it the first time.
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blackdiamond
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Rev 14:11 NIV And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
How do the following verses agree, or disagree, with Revelation 14:11?
Psa 9:5 KJVR Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name forever and ever.
Psa 37:38 KJVR But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psa 92:7 KJVR When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed forever:
Ecc 9:5 NIV For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
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