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Author
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Topic: SecondComing?
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Hitch
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Hitch:
Actually He was addressing the whole Counsel , hence the plural,but I appreciate your keeping to the topic.
WRT the pridful nonsense;
"If Hitch would open his heart to Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit of God to lead him in proper context and exegesis he would repent of his theology."
If Caretaker would open his heart to Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit of God to lead him in proper context and exegesis he would repent of his theology.
Get the point?
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After I pointed it out, THEN you changed it to the whole counsel whereas before you only referenced the High Priest. Smooth transition for wiggle room.
However it does not change the fact that Jesus was quoting Daniel, and the collective "ye" is in reference to the MANY not just to the "you" who are present as was so often the case.
Matt. 24:
6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
You still hanvet answered Caretaker. Is Jesus describing the rapture or not?
Fair waring,if you answer afirmativley I need to know how these evil men, the apostate High Priest and his cohorts are raised up a thousand years ahead of schedule? And that covers not only those directly spoken to in the passage, so whether specific or generalized there needs to be a accounting wrt how the evel will see an event you say happens a thousand years before they are supposed to be resurrected.
Good luck.
H
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
Hitch:
Actually He was addressing the whole Counsel , hence the plural,but I appreciate your keeping to the topic.
WRT the pridful nonsense;
"If Hitch would open his heart to Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit of God to lead him in proper context and exegesis he would repent of his theology."
If Caretaker would open his heart to Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit of God to lead him in proper context and exegesis he would repent of his theology.
Get the point?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
After I pointed it out, THEN you changed it to the whole counsel whereas before you only referenced the High Priest. Smooth transition for wiggle room.
However it does not change the fact that Jesus was quoting Daniel, and the collective "ye" is in reference to the MANY not just to the "you" who are present as was so often the case.
Matt. 24:
6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hitch
unregistered
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posted
Actually He was addressing the whole Counsel , hence the plural,but I appreciate your keeping to the topic.
WRT the pridful nonsense;
"If Hitch would open his heart to Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit of God to lead him in proper context and exegesis he would repent of his theology."
If Caretaker would open his heart to Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit of God to lead him in proper context and exegesis he would repent of his theology.
Get the point?
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
Matt. 26:
63: But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64: Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
The word "hereafter" means a separation in the Greek.
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you
Please note the words Thou and you are first person singular.
The word "ye" is plural and in fact does not reference the priest at all but the many, and Jesus is quoting from Daniel.
The High Priest has just asked Jesus if He is the Son of God. Jesus tells him, "Thou hast said".
Then he confirms that He is the Son of God in His quote from Daniel:
Daniel 7:
13: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14: And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Regardless of Hitch's vainly trying to repudiate God's truth with his question, the Word does not contradict itself and neither does the rapture contradict the Word.
If Hitch would open his heart to Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit of God to lead him in proper context and exegesis he would repent of his theology.
The true context of the passage IN NO WAY connotes that Jesus was saying that the High Priest specificly would be the one to see Him in clouds of Glory.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hitch
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
Well I’m a dispensationalist I make no apology for it.
The difference ...
Its how you study scripture ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
When you study Scripture, to whom is it written?
Is it written to Israel, or is it written to the Gentile church?
Who’s writing?
Is it an Old Testament prophet, or is it the Apostle Paul?
What are the circumstances?
All these things - that’s what you do when you separate the Scriptures or rightly divide them as Paul says.
That’s what makes Bible study simple, understandable,and exciting.
But most of Christendom is just feeding off of a jumbled-up mixture. Well, they put it in a blender and turn it up on high and ladle it out and post it on a Christian Pre-Trib board, no wonder why I get sick to my stomach.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Well, that’s exactly what’s happening.
Scriptures all mixed up, Most of Hitch's post should be in the wastebasket. I had a notion to write back and say you’re the best blender I’ve ever seen, yet. But, that’s what they do. They mix everything up, and everybody’s in total confusion.
So, for the new baby Christian the Bible goes back up on the bookshelf and collects dust, because after all, who can understand it? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
But here we dispensationalist are; we’re rightly dividing.
We’re separating it.
We’ve been doing that now for the many years,on this board and haven’t been kicked me off yet!
How long will Hitch last? ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
Well demonstrate your pride in your system and answer the question. It should be no trouble for one like you.
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
Well I’m a dispensationalist I make no apology for it.
The difference ...
Its how you study scripture
When you study Scripture, to whom is it written?
Is it written to Israel, or is it written to the Gentile church?
Who’s writing?
Is it an Old Testament prophet, or is it the Apostle Paul?
What are the circumstances?
All these things - that’s what you do when you separate the Scriptures or rightly divide them as Paul says.
That’s what makes Bible study simple, understandable,and exciting.
But most of Christendom is just feeding off of a jumbled-up mixture. Well, they put it in a blender and turn it up on high and ladle it out and post it on a Christian Pre-Trib board, no wonder why I get sick to my stomach.
Well, that’s exactly what’s happening.
Scriptures all mixed up, Most of Hitch's post should be in the wastebasket. I had a notion to write back and say you’re the best blender I’ve ever seen, yet. But, that’s what they do. They mix everything up, and everybody’s in total confusion.
So, for the new baby Christian the Bible goes back up on the bookshelf and collects dust, because after all, who can understand it?
But here we dispensationalist are; we’re rightly dividing.
We’re separating it.
We’ve been doing that now for the many years,on this board and haven’t been kicked me off yet!
How long will Hitch last?
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hitch
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
Matthew 24 was spoken by the Lord Himself to the 12 as representatives of Israel. Consequently, Matthew 24 is all tribulation.
Now that the Jews are back in the land, we can see everything being prepared for the final seven years of Daniel's prophecy -Daniel 9:27.
Please address the topic or stay off the thread. I doubt very much you have anyhting at all to explain why Jesus told the High Priest he would live to see what you insist is the rapture.
H
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Thunderz7
Advanced Member
Member # 31
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posted
by T7 quote:
much of the dispensational theology i have been exposed to teaches -
that GOD once had power;
and that HE will one day again have power;
but today HE has no power.
by Kindgo quote:
Thats SO silly!
Nobody teaches that God has no power, least not any Bible I ever read.
I didn't say any Bible taught it,
those are your words.
As to "nobody teaches that God has no power";
I know people who like to throw the word dispensation around;
those same people don't believe there are modern day apostles, prophets, teachers;
they don't believe the gifts of the Spirit are for today, they teach that they passed away with the original twelve apostles;
These type dispensationalist certainly exist,
I've seen them and heard them.
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
quote:
much of the dispensational theology i have been exposed to teaches -
that GOD once had power;
and that HE will one day again have power;
but today HE has no power.
Thats SO silly! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Nobody teaches that God has no power, least not any Bible I ever read. ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Thunderz7
Advanced Member
Member # 31
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posted
quote:
Dispensational theology, taught by nearly all pre-tribulationists, teaches that God has separate strategies for dealing with the Church and the Jews. When you consider the change in focus, during the tribulation, from the Church to Israel, the pre-trib rapture provides a good explanation for this transfer of attention.
much of the dispensational theology i have been exposed to teaches -
that GOD once had power;
and that HE will one day again have power;
but today HE has no power.
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by phebe_cenchrea:
quote:
Originally posted by Hitch:
Door #3 is always the best;
Does "and coming in the clouds of heaven" mean something other than the SecondAdvent/Rapture?
A word study on 'cloud,' both OT and NT, reveals the nature of biblical 'cloudiness.' It is not the characteristic of an overcast or stormy sky--but rather the Spirit of God.
quote:
Acts 1:10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
Matthew 24 was spoken by the Lord Himself to the 12 as representatives of Israel. Consequently, Matthew 24 is all tribulation.
Now that the Jews are back in the land, we can see everything being prepared for the final seven years of Daniel's prophecy -Daniel 9:27.
--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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phebe_cenchrea
Community Member
Member # 5659
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hitch:
Door #3 is always the best;
Does "and coming in the clouds of heaven" mean something other than the SecondAdvent/Rapture?
A word study on 'cloud,' both OT and NT, reveals the nature of biblical 'cloudiness.' It is not the characteristic of an overcast or stormy sky--but rather the Spirit of God.
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Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
(~Luke 12:32)
Posts: 9 | Registered: Apr 2006
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Hitch
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
Because Revelation places a strong emphasis on Israel during the tribulation, and not on the church, most post-tribulationists have adopted a replacement theology view in order to maintain the focus on them.
).
Perhaps this is misplaced. It has no bearing on the topic.
Take care
Hitch
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
Because Revelation places a strong emphasis on Israel during the tribulation, and not on the church, most post-tribulationists have adopted a replacement theology view in order to maintain the focus on them.
Replacementism is the view that Israel, having failed God, has been replaced by the Church. The Church is now seen as spiritual Israel and spiritual Jerusalem. This teaching claims that all the promises and blessings, in fact Israel's entire inheritance, now belongs to the Church. However, all is not lost for Israel; it gets to keep all the curses.
Dispensational theology, taught by nearly all pre-tribulationists, teaches that God has separate strategies for dealing with the Church and the Jews. When you consider the change in focus, during the tribulation, from the Church to Israel, the pre-trib rapture provides a good explanation for this transfer of attention.
To say that Israel is no longer God's chosen people is really playing with fire because the Antichrist will likely be saying the same thing when he tries to destroy the Jews during the tribulation. I look for people that hold to replacementism to be in the cheering section when the Beast goes on his Jew-killing campaign. "The Lord will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance" (Psalm 94:14).
"This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is his name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me'" (Jeremiah 31:35-36).
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hitch
unregistered
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posted
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Matt 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(KJV)
This passage is often quoted to support the notion that this chapter of Mat's book is concerned with the Second Advent/Rapture depending on how a particular group 'rightly divides' , the Word.
Doesnt matter. Most futurists agree its about one or the other or the 'rapture' is an 'aspect' of the Second Advent' ...doesnt matter.
If Jesus is talking about events that have yet to take place, two thousand years hence we are forced to examine his prophetic record. So for the sake of argument lets say Jesus was talking about the Rapture when he invoked this passage from Dan. We have all heard the various proofs.
Well Houston we have a problem.
Matt 26:62-64
62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
(KJV)
Seems Jesus told the High Priest that he would live to see and coming in the clouds of heaven. the Rapture/Second Advent, fillintheblank. After all its only a short time later and Jesus uses the vary same quote to make his point.
So did the bastard son.,,er High Priest manage to stay alive all this time like the legendary three Nephites?
Is Jesus proven to be a false prophet?
Or
Door #3 is always the best;
Does "and coming in the clouds of heaven" mean something other than the SecondAdvent/Rapture?
Take care
Hitch
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