|
Author
|
Topic: Will Hell last forever?
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
David I really appreciate this post above. You made some points that I wanted to highlight because I see them as things that we have critical need to understand, especially as we grow closer and closer to the moment of Christ's return and deeper and deeper into the falling away.
quote:
Underlying this trend is the notion that the church must sell the gospel to unbelievers. Churches thus compete for the consumer on the same level as Frosted Flakes or Miller Lite. More and more churches are relying on marketing strategy to sell the church.
I really think that this is true. But more importantly I think that we need to understand the mind that is behind it. This belief, this mindset is one that denies the power of the Gospel itself. It makes man to be a winner of souls. The power unto salvation is in the power of HIS WORD which is alive with the Spirit. We are not soul winners and cannot be. We are sowers of the WORD. Souls are not won they are bought. We do not need anything but the Power of the WORD of the Gospel and the grace of God extended to man to draw HIM to repentance and toward GOD; for the Gospel to do what GOD wills the Gospel to do. This mindset of entertainment is the mindset of the enemy that had led man to think that man's way is better than God's way. This is the error of Cain! God wants HIS will HIS way not what we think HIS will is done our way!
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
NOT the preacher and not the presentation... THE GOSPEL!!!
quote:
That philosophy is the result of bad theology. It assumes that if you package the gospel right, people will get saved. The whole approach is rooted in Arminian theology. It views conversion as nothing more than an act of the human will. Its goal is an instantaneous decision rather than a radical change of the heart.
Yes, there is that will thing again. We want him to save us and we want to keep our will too. but that is man's way again! It is when our will is surrendered to the Perfect will of God that the Power of God manifests change in man. We cling to our decision as if we could make one that was for good, without HIS mercy and Grace! We invite HIM into our hearts, because we think he needs an invitation! We allow him into our lives in those parts we are willing to allow! Ha! Fools, we are fools! It is only when we come to the place that we know that we are not God and HE is GOD; Only when we know that the only will that is going to be done in the end is HIS will; only when we know that there is no life that is ours, but that our life is in HIM and HE has reconcilled us to HIS life and paved the way back to HIS life with the blood of HIS Son and the lit that way with HIS word, that we can be born again, and even then none of this is within our will; none of this is even possible without his having called us, drawn us, given to us grace to repents and KNOW that HE ALone is GOD.
quote:
Moreover, this whole Madison-Avenue corruption of Christianity presumes that church services are primarily for recruiting unbelievers. Many have abandoned worship as such. Others have relegated conventional preaching to some small group setting on a weeknight. But that misses the point of Hebrews 10:24-25: "Let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together."
Acts 2:42 shows us the pattern the early church followed when they met: "They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." Note that the early church's priorities clearly were to worship God and to edify the brethren. The church came together for worship and edification; it scattered to evangelize the world.
Our Lord commissioned His disciples for evangelism in this way: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations" (Matt. 28:19). Christ makes it clear that the church is not to wait for or invite the world to come to its meetings, but to go to the world. That is a responsibility for every believer. I fear that an approach emphasizing a palatable gospel presentation within the walls of the church absolves the individual believer from his personal obligation to be a light in the world (Matt. 5:16).
We have a society filled with people who want what they want when they want it. They are into their own lifestyle, recreation, and entertainment. When churches appeal to those selfish desires, they only fuel that fire and hinder true godliness. Some of these churches are growing exponentially while others that don't entertain are struggling. Many church leaders want numerical growth in their churches, so they are buying into the entertainment-first philosophy.
I really want to thank you for this above and (highlighting is by me). I have just about been lynched for preaching this. But this is so important. Today as the apostasy grows and the falling away widens, I believe that our need to understand God's design in these things as laid down as foundation for us by the apostles.
1. Not forsaking the assembly; The assembly of the congregation was a place to learn, to prepare to go out and send; a place to edify and uphold one another; a place for ministry of the needs of the body, both physical and emotional and spiritual; it was a place of safehaven; a place of comfort; a place of reproof, and rebuke, and exhortion, a place for the care and nurturing of each other, a place of refreshing. When the body is assembled and working and ministering in this way this is a living act of worship. Christ was so lifted up by the assembled church of Acts who ministered to each other, that men were drawn to Christ and to the church by the thousands even though the church was being brutally persecuted... because people hungered for what they had. This is to preach the Gospel for a witness! They had the PEACE JOY POWER in the HOLY GHost, and it was a witness to the world.
Evangelism is an important work of the church, but it is not the purpose of the church; Society is changed by the church, when the church is being the church, but societal change is not the purpose of the church. The purpose of the church is to worship Christ and exalt HIM, to lift him up, to glorify God as we are transformed into the image of Christ; God is worshiped in Spirit, as we walk in Spirit, presenting our bodies as living sacrifice to HIM, loving HIM with all our body soul and spirit, loving our neghbor as ourselves, and loving each other as Christ love us... Christ who washed our feet, fed our spirits and our bodies, and ministered to us, serving us evne unto death. There is no greater form of worship than obedience and surrender to HIS will.
This is a narative on the assembled body:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
This is what she does:
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
This is for how long:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
This is why
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
This is what happens when we do this
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
When the church is being the church; people in the world are drawn to the Church and to her head who is Christ.
Then when the church goes out and sends out and teaches the oracles of God and Baptizes new members into the body, they are brought out of the world and into the body and partake in all the blessings there of.
What happens when we bring sinners into the church to evangelize them is both the church and the sinner suffers.
THe church is infiltrated with sin; the church is focused on milk at the expense of the members receiving meat that would help them grow to the next level and the sinner that is not converted is challenged with all manner of things that he can neither do nor understand as he does not have the Spirit of God indwelling.
God's way vs Man's way... HIS ways are not our ways, but HIS way is the perfect way. Question is do we want HIS way? Do we want HIS perfect will or do we want his permissive will.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
saved1948
Advanced Member
Member # 5391
|
posted
quote:
Here’s the good news, though, if there is no hell: You won’t know a thing after you die. It will be the end. No heaven, no hell. Just nothing. You won’t even realize that it’s good news.
Way too many people believe this.Are they going to have a surprise a minute after they are dead. ![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif) <><
--------------------
John 3:16+6\[/p..................For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,that whoever believed in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
Posts: 52 | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
Gimme that Showtime Religion
Can the church fight apathy and materialism by feeding people's appetite for entertainment? Evidently many in the church believe the answer is yes, as church after church jumps on the show-business bandwagon. It is a troubling trend that is luring many otherwise orthodox churches away from biblical priorities.
Church buildings are being constructed like theatres. Instead of a pulpit, the focus is a stage. Some feature massive platforms that revolve or rise and fall, with colored lights and huge sound boards. Shepherds are giving way to media specialists, programming consultants, stage directors, special effects experts, and choreographers.
The idea is to give the audience what they want. Tailor the church service to whatever will draw a crowd. As a result pastors are more like politicians than shepherds, looking to appeal to the public rather than leading and building the flock God gave them.
The congregation is served a slick, professional show, where drama, pop music, and maybe a soft-sell sermon constitute the worship service. But the emphasis isn't on worship, it's on entertainment.
Underlying this trend is the notion that the church must sell the gospel to unbelievers. Churches thus compete for the consumer on the same level as Frosted Flakes or Miller Lite. More and more churches are relying on marketing strategy to sell the church.
That philosophy is the result of bad theology. It assumes that if you package the gospel right, people will get saved. The whole approach is rooted in Arminian theology. It views conversion as nothing more than an act of the human will. Its goal is an instantaneous decision rather than a radical change of the heart.
Moreover, this whole Madison-Avenue corruption of Christianity presumes that church services are primarily for recruiting unbelievers. Many have abandoned worship as such. Others have relegated conventional preaching to some small group setting on a weeknight. But that misses the point of Hebrews 10:24-25: "Let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together."
Acts 2:42 shows us the pattern the early church followed when they met: "They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." Note that the early church's priorities clearly were to worship God and to edify the brethren. The church came together for worship and edification; it scattered to evangelize the world.
Our Lord commissioned His disciples for evangelism in this way: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations" (Matt. 28:19). Christ makes it clear that the church is not to wait for or invite the world to come to its meetings, but to go to the world. That is a responsibility for every believer. I fear that an approach emphasizing a palatable gospel presentation within the walls of the church absolves the individual believer from his personal obligation to be a light in the world (Matt. 5:16).
We have a society filled with people who want what they want when they want it. They are into their own lifestyle, recreation, and entertainment. When churches appeal to those selfish desires, they only fuel that fire and hinder true godliness. Some of these churches are growing exponentially while others that don't entertain are struggling. Many church leaders want numerical growth in their churches, so they are buying into the entertainment-first philosophy.
Consider what this philosophy does to the gospel message itself. Some will maintain that if biblical principles are presented, the medium doesn't matter. That is nonsense. Why not have a real carnival? A tattooed knife thrower who juggles chain saws could do his thing while a barker shouts Bible verses. That would draw a crowd. It's a bizarre scenario, but one that illustrates how the medium can cheapen and corrupt the message.
And sadly, it's not terribly different from what is actually being done in some churches. Punk-rockers, ventriloquists' dummies, clowns, and show-business celebrities have taken the place of the preacher--and they are depreciating the gospel. I do believe we can be innovative and creative in how we present the gospel, but we have to be careful to harmonize our methods with the profound spiritual truth we are trying to convey. It is too easy to trivialize the sacred message.
Don't be quick to embrace the trends of the high-tech superchurches. And don't sneer at conventional worship and preaching. We don't need clever approaches to get people saved (1 Cor. 1:21). We simply need to get back to preaching the truth and planting the seed. If we're faithful in that, the soil God has prepared will bear fruit.
Ah if this peaked you interest then read on
Click Here
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
|
posted
I was thinking about how many people have come and gone and the people that are here, were here when I came. Minus a few.
David helped me understand that his focus isn't on having the forum grow though. I guess I had thought that forums were meant to grow.
I hear I'm coming across as if I feel I know it all and I don't think that at all. I know my faults all to well. Each day I continue to grow in the Lord and I try to follow the example Jesus put forth. Jesus got in a boat, crossed the water, led one man to salvation and then returned to the other side. That sticks out in my mind. Jesus went out of his way for 1 man. Just one!! So, that tells me that people were important to Him. When I see this example, it made me feel like Jesus didn't turn His back on people or push them away.
My point wasn't taken well so I left alone. I wasn't trying to cause trouble, I was trying express what I learn from the bible and it wasn't taken well so I dropped it. I won't bring it up again.
When I read this in the bible, it brought tears to my eyes because I realized that Jesus would have gone out of His way for me. One wayward sinner. If I were the only one on the other side of that water, He would have came for me. For You Also.
--------------------
www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
quote:
Carmela says: No offense David but this forum isn't growing because everyone keeps getting kicked out or told they can leave. As I stated before, I don't see how people can be drawn to the Lord when they are constantly being pushed out.
On what are you basing that this forum is not growing?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
|
posted
No offense David but this forum isn't growing because everyone keeps getting kicked out or told they can leave. As I stated before, I don't see how people can be drawn to the Lord when they are constantly being pushed out.
You told me I could leave several times yesterday and all I did was try to discuss something with you in private.
I guess I always thought forums where a place to focus on the Lord.
If we follow Jesus' demonstation we see something totally contrary to what is being demonstrated here. When He saw the woman at the well he didn't say to her, woman if you want to sleep with many men then leave this town and leave My presence.
When Jesus saw Mary, He didn't tell her she had to leave his site because she was a sinner and believing false doctrine. Instead, He lead her to Salvation.
We can even go back as far as Moses. When he came off of the mountain and saw his people worshipping the golden calf, he didn't tell them to leave the town because they were worshipping a false God. He went back before God and God didn't give up on them either. In fact, God gave Moses a second set of the commandments and I believe the second time He even wrote them on stone Himself.
When I talk about preaching with love, I get reprimanded as if I'm saying to turn my back on the sin and pretend it doesn't exist and that isn't at all what I'm saying. I was even told that I act as if I'm the only one that knows how to be a witness which isn't the case either. Instead, I am follow the example of Jesus. I am witnessing as Jesus did and as Moses did. I don't turn my back on people, I focus on directing them back to the Lord.
Father God,
I thank you that you are a God that is loving, kind and merciful. I thank You Lord that when the Christians in the world turn their back on people, You are faithful to not turn Your back on them. I thank you Lord that you show me Mercy and Grace when I am weak and fall into sinful situations and you don't push me away.
Lord, please cause us all to be an example as Jesus and Moses was.
Lord, my only prayer for myself is that you continue to give me a heart of love for others as you commandment and that you cause me to never let my own agenda or my own unforgiveness of others cause me to lead people astray. Help me to love and forgive at all times. Please Lord, help me to see each person as You see them. Help me to continue to love each person as You Love them. And mostly Lord, I pray that you will never let me to allow Christians in this world cause me to be so hurtful to others or to turn my back on others that are seeking to gain a better understanding of Your Word and Your ways.
In Jesus Precious Name I pray,
AMEN!!
--------------------
www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
sister Carmela, I would have directed you to my Topic "olam and aionios, does it mean eternal?", but the Topic has been banned. sorry. this CBBS is apparently an English-only site.
You are the one that deleted the topic and I did not ban the topic, just you trying to prove you know more about how to translate the bible then the people that translated the KJV bible.
On this BBS the KJV of the Bible is what we will go by, not BA's version of the Bible.
If all you want to do is talk bad about how this bbs is ran, I suggest again you leave and go where thay teach the BA version of the bible.
Thank you,
David
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
There are three words translated “hell” in Scripture:
Gehenna (Greek): The place of punishment (Matthew 5:22,29; 10:28; and James 3:6) Hades (Greek): The abode of the dead (Matthew 11:23; 16:18, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27)Sheol (Hebrew): The grave (Psalm 9:17; 16:10)
There are those who accept that hell is a place of punishment, but believe that the punishment is to be annihilated—to cease conscious existence. They can’t conceive that the punishment of the wicked will be conscious and eternal. If they are correct, then a man like Adolph Hitler, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, is being “punished” merely with eternal sleep. His fate is simply to return to the non-existent state he was in before he was born, where he doesn’t even know that he is being punished.
However, Scripture paints a different story. The rich man who found himself in hell (Luke 16:19–31) was conscious. He was able to feel pain, to thirst, and to experience remorse. He wasn’t asleep in the grave; he was in a place of “torment.”
If hell is a place of knowing nothing or a reference to the grave into which we go at death, Jesus’s statements about hell make no sense. He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to “go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:43–48).
The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following:
“Shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2)
“Everlasting punishment” (Mathew 25:46)
“Weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 24:51)
“Fire unquenchable” (Luke 3:17)
“Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish” (Romans 2:8,9)
“Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
“Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever” (Jude 7,13)
Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: “He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night.”
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
David writes quote:
God wrote the Bible to us so forever means:
Howver, God did NOT write the Bible in English, but in Hebrew and Greek.
So if you're going to read the Bible ONLY in English, then you are reading a secondhand opinion of the English translators already, and you do so at your own risk.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
It is very dangerous to say that the Bible God has given us is not correct and you can give us the correct interpertation when the translators could not.
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
it's funny, but RioLion, this Topic starter, is doing better in death than he did in life!
John 12:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone: but if it dies, it brings forth much fruit.
IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
sister Carmela, I would have directed you to my Topic "olam and aionios, does it mean eternal?", but the Topic has been banned. sorry. this CBBS is apparently an English-only site.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
|
posted
David you said: Well I think you need to stick to what the Bible says and not the way someone tells you. God wrote the Bible to us so forever means:
For everlasting time; eternally: No one can live forever.
I didn't say I was asking someone for an understanding of this. I'm asking a Greek Scholar to explain the actual Greek words to me. Greek doesn't say forever and ever.
--------------------
www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
|
posted
Zen I am in bible school and I took basic Greek. I'm not a pro though. I have a Greek/Engilish Interlinear bible which is in Greek and has the English word for word interpretation under it. Plus, my Greek teacher lives near me so I can get help when I need it.
--------------------
www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
David writes quote:
God wrote the Bible to us so forever means:
Howver, God did NOT write the Bible in English, but in Hebrew and Greek.
So if you're going to read the Bible ONLY in English, then you are reading a secondhand opinion of the English translators already, and you do so at your own risk.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
[ April 05, 2006, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: David ]
IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carmela:
I'm still working through reading all posts but I looked this up in the Greek:
David said:
for ever and ever this means for ever and ever....
In the actually Greek, it doesn't say forever and ever. It says into the ages of the ages. That could mean the same, but it may not mean that either. I tried to call my Greek teacher but he isn't home. Most translations I just checked also say forever and ever though. However, we don't know what forever means in the heavenly realm either since a day is as a 1,000 years. I'm only speculation, which I shouldn't do but it's just a thought nothing substantial, but what if forever means forever according the earth's time line now and not eternally. Ok OK don't be getting mad at me. I'm not saying this one way or another really.
>>>I'm not saying this one way or another really.
Well I think you need to stick to what the Bible says and not the way someone tells you. God wrote the Bible to us so forever means:
For everlasting time; eternally: No one can live forever.
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Ephesians 4:14
1 Corinthians 1:17-21 (KJV)
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
I don't think God put words in the bible to try and trick us. Sometimes people just try to hard to make the bible say what they want it to say. Since we are on earth, I am sure he used terms we can understand.
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
David writes quote:
Here’s the good news, though, if there is no hell: You won’t know a thing after you die. It will be the end. No heaven, no hell. Just nothing. You won’t even realize that it’s good news.
While I don't want to get deeply back into it for fear of being banned, it is not true that after you die that, "that will be the end."
The Bible declares that the dead will be raised one more time, and the dead will stand before the judgment seat, and if their name is not written in the book of life, those dead will be thrown into the lake of fire and they will experience a second death. Doesn't the Bible say that?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
zen
Community Member
Member # 5612
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carmela:
... I looked this up in the Greek:...
Sweet. I'd like to be able to do that.
What text do you use for this?
Do you have a Concordance with Greek words translated and explained, or do you have a bible written totally in Greek?
Posts: 10 | From: michigan | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
Where did I say you did?
If you are refering to what you said below:
>> >>> If someone wants to think that there is no hell and they will be annihilated, then so be it.
If you believe this is OK then you are saying that is is OK to change the bible to say what you want. This is creating a god to be what you want it to be. And you are saying it is OK with you.
so be it:
Let it be so, I accept it as it is.
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
|
posted
That was suppose to say about bad mouthing.
Could you please show me where I taught about a phony God or a lie?
--------------------
www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carmela:
David as I read some of the posts here, it seems that you showed the first sign of sarcasm before RioLion did so I don't understand why you made that comment out bad mouthing.
Now that was not a very loving thing to say, should you love everyone on here but me. You can say what you want to anyone but I can not say anything to anyone...... wow, I guess it is OK for you but not me. hummm........
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
>>> If someone wants to think that there is no hell and they will be annihilated, then so be it.
That is a wonderful statement. Believe what you want. Pick and choose what you want out of the Bible and create your own God.
Those who say that are right: their "god" would never create hell, because he couldn’t. He doesn’t exist. He is a figment of their imagination, a god they have created to suit themselves. It’s called "idolatry," and it’s the oldest sin in the Book. Idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of God. Well that is what is wrong with todays Churches, they don't believe what the Bible says and they just keep the parts they want. The one true God, however, could and did create hell for those who reject His mercy. They will reap His just wrath.
I am sorry, but this is not going to hold up on judgement day when the Lord Jesus Christ wants to know what you did with His word to you and you say well I taught the things I thought were true and through the rest out.
Oh, I guess I just wanted to rewrite the book to suit my self....
'Hell-fire’ preaching is effective when done in the right way and we sure need more preachers that will preach the true instead of just tickling ears. The existence of hell and the surety of the judgment are not the claims of fallible man. The Bible is the source of the claim, and it is utterly infallible. When someone becomes a Christian, he is admitting that he was in the wrong, and that God is justified in His declarations that we have sinned against Him. However, let’s surmise for a moment that there is no Judgment Day and no hell. That would mean that the Bible is a huge hoax, in which more than forty authors collaborated (over a period of 3,000 years) to produce a document revealing God’s character as "just." They portrayed Him as a just judge, who warned that He would eventually punish murderers, rapists, liars, thieves, adulterers, etc. Each of those writers (who professed to be godly) therefore bore false witness, transgressing the very commandments they claimed to be true. It would mean that Jesus Christ was a liar, and that all the claims He made about the reality of judgment were there-fore false. It would also mean that He gave His life in vain, as did multitudes of martyrs who have given their lives for the cause of Christ. Add to that the thought that if there is no ultimate justice, it means that the Creator of all things is unjust—that He sees murder and rape and couldn’t care less, making Him worse than a corrupt human judge who refuses to bring criminals to justice. Here’s the good news, though, if there is no hell: You won’t know a thing after you die. It will be the end. No heaven, no hell. Just nothing. You won’t even realize that it’s good news. Here’s the bad news if the Bible is right and that there is eternal justice: You will find yourself standing before the judgment throne of a holy God, who has seen every sin you have ever committed. Think of it. A holy and perfect Creator has seen your thought-life and every secret sin you have ever committed. You have a multitude of sins, and God must by nature carry out justice. Ask Him to remind you of the sins of your youth. Ask Him to bring to remembrance your secret sexual sins, the lies, the gossip, and other idle words. You may have forgotten your past sins, but God hasn’t. Hell will be your just desert (exactly what you deserve), and you will have no one to blame but yourself. This is the claim of the Bible. If you don’t believe it, it is still true. It will still happen. Yet, there is good news—incredibly good news. We deserve judgment, but God offers us mercy through the cross. He paid our fine so that we could leave the courtroom. He destroyed the power of the grave for all who obey Him. Simply obey the gospel, and live. By doing that you will find out for yourself that the gospel is indeed the "gospel truth." Jesus said that if you obey Him, you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free (see John 8:31,32). Get on your knees today, confess and forsake your sins. Tell God you are truly sorry, then trust the Savior as you would trust yourself to a parachute. Then you will find yourself in a terrible dilemma. You will know for certain that hell is a reality. When you get up the courage to warn people you care about, they will smile passively, and say, "Could you be wrong in your claims about Judgment Day and the existence of hell?"
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
|
posted
I keep seeing this in these posts: hell fire preachers. Again I make the same point. Should our focus be on teaching hell? Are Christians suppose to scare people into Christianity? Although I don't think it's wrong to preach on hell, I still think that our MAIN FOCUS should be on Christ. Learn Christ and draw closer to Him, and the rest will fall into place. God said seek and ye shall find. If a person is seeking, God will reveal Himself to them.
--------------------
www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
|
posted
I'm still working through reading all posts but I looked this up in the Greek:
David said:
for ever and ever this means for ever and ever....
In the actually Greek, it doesn't say forever and ever. It says into the ages of the ages. That could mean the same, but it may not mean that either. I tried to call my Greek teacher but he isn't home. Most translations I just checked also say forever and ever though. However, we don't know what forever means in the heavenly realm either since a day is as a 1,000 years. I'm only speculation, which I shouldn't do but it's just a thought nothing substantial, but what if forever means forever according the earth's time line now and not eternally. Ok OK don't be getting mad at me. I'm not saying this one way or another really.
--------------------
www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
|
posted
David as I read some of the posts here, it seems that you showed the first sign of sarcasm before RioLion did so I don't understand why you made that comment out bad mouthing.
However, who cares what hell is? Seriously. I mean (and I'm not saying this in a rude way or with any rude intent it's just my belief) what should we be focusing on? Again, as I have said before, the focus here is taken off God. No matter what hell is, I don't want to be there because it will mean that I have missed the mark. I want to live each day drawing closer to God and learning more and growing in faith, receiving more revelation and on and on....
I don't see why it's so bad to some people when they hear (or read) that someone is questioning what hell really is when really Christians should instead be redirecting a person's focus back to Jesus and the price HE paid so that you (David, Carmela, HFHS,BA, RioLion....) can know eternal salvation. I pray to God that I never really know what the "real" hell is because my only focus is on my Savior and eternal salvation along with the salvation of those I come into contact with.
It really ticks me off when I come to the forum and see that people jump all over someone because they believe something differently then others believe (or they are threatened with being kicked out of the forum) when God gave each person the right to choose. If God gives each person the right to choose, then who are you or who am I to take that away from them? Instead, we should be showing love to others. We should be able to help others focus on the Love of Christ and eternal salvation instead of fretting the small stuff like what hell really is. When we spend out time disputing, we are just entering the enemy's camp.
It doesn't matter exactly what the punishment will be in the end, what matters is that we are bound to God. If someone wants to think that there is no hell and they will be annihilated, then so be it. Either way, the main focus that should be taught here is that separation from God is detrimental to us. Our job while here on earth is to make sure that each person's focus is on the cross, not whether hell is eternal torment or not.
--------------------
www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
Ones perception of man's eternal soul will cause one to approach scripture and emphasize specific proof texts, in regards to eternal rewards/punishments.
If man does not have an eternal soul, the very essence of who we are, who survives with awareness and emotion, after the physical death of the body, then the annihilationist perspective is logical exegesis. This would enable a recreation of the individual and an endowment of Heavenly reward and eternal life.
If the soul does indeed exist and have the intrinsic immortality, the ability to exist with perception and emotion following the death of the body, then the unrighteous awareness from Hades, and the righteous awareness from the throneroom of Glory would be logical exegesis.
I would specificly reference our Lord's description of the rich man in torments, and the souls of them who were beheaded for the witness of Christ who cry-out and are given white robes.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul
The soul, according to many religious and philosophical traditions, is a self aware ethereal substance particular to a unique living being. In these traditions the soul is thought to incorporate the inner essence in each living being, and to be the true basis for sentience. In distinction to spirit which may or may not be eternal, souls are usually (but not always as explained below) considered to be immortal and to pre-exist their incarnation in flesh. The concept of the soul has strong links with notions of an afterlife, but opinions may vary wildly, even within a given religion, as to what happens to the soul after death. Many within these religions and philosophies see the soul as immaterial, while others consider it possibly material.
Christian beliefs
In Christianity, some believe that as soon as a person dies, their soul will be judged by God, who sees all the wrong and right that they have done during their lives. If they have accepted Jesus, have been a faithful Christian and have repented for their sins before they have died, they will gain access to "Heaven" and enjoy eternal fellowship with God. If they have not repented for their sins, they will go to "Hell", and suffer eternal separation from God.
"He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy." Apostle Titus 3:5
[edit]
Various opinions
Most Christians regard the soul as the immortal essence of a human - the seat or locus of human will, understanding, and personality - and that after death, God either rewards or punishes the soul. Different Christian groups dispute whether this reward/punishment depends upon doing good deeds, or merely upon believing in God and in Jesus. The imagery that Jesus used to describe the soul includes the "beautiful garments" of Revelation ("they [the saints] will be clothed in white"), which are "more beautiful than Solomon in all his glory" (Matthew). Jesus said, "Do not let anyone steal your garments" (Revelation). And in a parable about the master's feast, Jesus (the master) has a guest thrown out by His servants (the holy angels) for showing up without his feast-garments. Jesus said, "And what will a man give in exchange for his soul?", warning him that he could lose it (Matthew). The message is: don't show up for the Judgement without your beautiful garments (the soul). The soul represents righteousness. The reward that the faithful Christian receives at the moment of his death, is the privilege to receive his soul, which was kept safe by Jesus, and to appear before God's feast clothed in one's soul.
"Be thou faithful unto death, and I shall give you the crown of life" (Revelation). The labour is to remain faithful, and the reward is to keep one's soul. In the parable of the ten virgins, who are waiting for the return of the master (Jesus) with their lamps lit, Jesus warns them not to be foolish, and let their lamps go out, by pursuing after worldly things at such a critical time. The lamp represents the eye, and the oil represents the Holy Spirit of Jesus, from God. The soul is apparently the receptacle for the Holy Spirit; the body, which houses the soul, is the tabernacle, or the "temple of the Holy Spirit".
Christian belief also holds that the soul cannot be bought; this is why money is not an accurate measurement of spirituality. You can be very wealthy, and still be "poor, and blind and naked" (Revelation). The notion that the salvation of the soul cannot be earned by good deeds can appear to contradict Biblical teaching, when Christians are instructed to "Love your neighbour as yourself" as the second most important command. However, scripture holds that only by grace directly from God the father are we "saved", and to make the robe of the soul clean requires only an acceptance of this grace, which incidentally is a neutral deed, neither good nor evil.
Many Christian scholars hold, as Aristotle did, that "to attain any assured knowledge of the soul is one of the most difficult things in the world". Augustine, one of the most influential early Christian thinkers, described the soul as "a special substance, endowed with reason, adapted to rule the body". The apostle Paul said that the "body wars against" the soul, and that "I buffet my body", to keep it under control. Philosopher Anthony Quinton said the soul is a "series of mental states connected by continuity of character and memory, [and] is the essential constituent of personality. The soul, therefore, is not only logically distinct from any particular human body with which it is associated; it is also what a person is". Richard Swinburne, a Christian philosopher of religion at Oxford University, wrote that "it is a frequent criticism of substance dualism that dualists cannot say what souls are.... Souls are immaterial subjects of mental properties. They have sensations and thoughts, desires and beliefs, and perform intentional actions. Souls are essential parts of human beings..."
The origin of the soul has provided a sometimes vexing question in Christianity; the major theories put forward include Creationism, traducianism and pre-existence.
Other Christian beliefs differ:
Thousands of biblical references unquestionably define humans (and some animals) as BEING souls, not having souls and only a handful of verses suggest or can be read to the contrary:
* A few Christian groups do not believe in the soul, and hold that people cease to exist, both mind and body, at death; they claim however, that God will recreate the minds and bodies of believers in Jesus at some future time, the "end of the world."
* Another minority of Christians believe in the soul, but don't regard it as inherently immortal. This minority also believes the life of Christ brings immortality, but only to believers.
* Medieval Christian thinkers often assigned to the soul attributes such as thought and imagination, as well as faith and love: this suggests that the boundaries between "soul" and "mind" can vary in different interpretations.
* Jehovah's Witnesses view the Hebrew word NePHeSH in its literal concrete meaning of breath, making a person who is animated by the spirit of God into a living BREATHER, rather than a body containing an invisible entity such as the majority concept of Soul. Spirit is seen to be anything powerful and invisible symbolized by the hebrew word RuaCH which has the literal meaning of wind. Thus Soul is used by them to mean a person rather than an invisible core entity associated with a spirit or a force, which leaves the body at or after death. (Gen.2:7; Ezek.18:4, KJV). When a person dies his Soul leaves him meaning that he has stopped breathing and his fate for any future existence rests solely with God who they believe has the power to re-create the whole person and restore their existence. This is in line with their belief that Hell represents the grave and the possibility of eternal death for unbelievers rather than eternal torment. See Strong's Concordance under "soul", with Biblical meaning that animals and people are souls, that souls are not immortal, but die; soul means the person; life as a person, etc.
* The soul sleep theory states that the soul goes to "sleep" at the time of death, and stays in this quiescent state until the last judgment.
* The "absent from the body, present with the Lord" theory states that the soul at the point of death, immediately becomes present at the end of time, without experiencing any time passing between.
* The "purgatory" theory states that the soul, if imperfect, spends a period of time purging or cleansing, before becoming ready for the end of time.
* The present Catechism of the Catholic Church defines the soul as "the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God's image: 'soul' signifies the spiritual principle in man."
* Swedenborgianism teaches that each person's soul is created by the Lord at the same time as the physical body is developed, that the soul is the person himself or herself, and that the soul is eternal, and has an eternal spiritual body, that is substantial without being material. After the death of the body, the person becomes immediately conscious in the spiritual world.
[edit]
In favor of a conscious non-material entity ("soul") that survives bodily death
Some traditional Christians argue that the Bible teaches the survival of a conscious self after death. They interpret this as an intermediate state, before the deceased unite with their Resurrection bodies and restore the psychosomatic unity that existed from conception, and which death disrupts. These Christians point out:
* Rachel's death in Genesis 35:18 equates with her soul (Hebrew nephesh) departing. And when Elijah prays in 1 Kings 17:21 for the return of a widow's boy to life, he entreats, "O LORD my God, I pray you, let this child's nephesh come into him again". So death meant that something called nephesh (or "soul") became separated from the body, and life could return when this soul returned.
* Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross, "I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Interpretation: that very day, the thief will in a conscious way have fellowship with Christ in Paradise, despite the apparent destruction of his body. According to the apostle Peter, Jesus descended (upon His death) into Hades, which could not hold Him, and led the souls of the righteous dead (including the thief on the cross) which were imprisoned in Paradise (a compartment of Hades, which was reserved for those righteous dead) out of captivity, and "led captivity captive" (thus emptying Paradise, according to the apostle Paul), who also claimed that Jesus was King not only by birth, but "by nature of an indestructible life" (in the letter to the Hebrews, if it was written by Paul). Afterwards, in John's vision of Revelation, Jesus appeared to John and claimed that He had "the keys of Hades".
* Jesus' account of the rich man and Lazarus, who were both still conscious at the same time as the rich man's brothers, who lived on. This scenario preceded Jesus taking the souls of Paradise with Him to heaven, therefore Lazarus remains in Paradise. The rich man stood in another compartment of Sheol where he could see Lazarus, but could never cross over. The patriarch Abraham comforted Lazarus, whereas the rich man remained in torment. Jesus said, "Truly, truly, how difficult it is for a rich man to enter into Heaven," (although Lazarus was not there yet).
* Matthew 10:28: Jesus says, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Here, the soul (Greek psychē) appears as something distinct from the body, and something which survives the death of the body.
* Phil. 1:21-23, depicting the believer to "depart and to be with Christ", where the aorist infinitive (to depart) links via a single article to a present infinitive (to be with Christ). This linkage shows that the departure, and being with Christ, occur at the same moment. And, since Christ dwells in Heaven, Paul anticipated going to Heaven at death.
* Revelation 6:9-10 portrays the souls (Greek psychas) of martyred saints as conscious, and as asking God how long He will refrain from smiting the wicked on Earth. Once more, these saints consciously exist with God in heaven, at the same time as evil people exist on the earth.
* Matthew 22 : 23That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him (Jesus) with a question. 24“Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27Finally, the woman died. 28Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?” 29Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead – have you not read what God said to you, 32‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[Exodus 3:6]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.
* 1 Corinthians 15 : 12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. (...) 29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I die every day–I mean that, brothers–just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”[Isaiah 22:13] (...) 35But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. 42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45(...) 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
saved1948
Advanced Member
Member # 5391
|
posted
Yes, hell will be for an eternity.Imagine your worst day ever her on earth and multiply it x 20. That is hell. For Christians earth is the closest we will be to hell. For nonchristians earth is the closest they will be to heaven.<><
--------------------
John 3:16+6\[/p..................For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,that whoever believed in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
Posts: 52 | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
Amen David and Linda!!!!!!!!!
http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org/doctrine/death.html
With the New Testament revelation we have been given a far greater understanding of the Scriptures. In the Old Testament many prophecies and doctrines were somewhat veiled, expressed in types and figures and were often times shadowy. Jesus clarified the doctrine of Sheol/Hades when He unveiled what happened to two men that had died, namely Lazarus and a certain rich man.
It is quite interesting that there was a certain rich man whom approached Christ but in the end turned away, choosing his riches instead of following Christ (Matthew 19:16-22). There was also a friend of Christ's named Lazarus who was a believer and died but Christ raised from the dead.
Anyway, this teaching can be found in Luke chapter 16. When Lazarus died he “was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell (Greek: Hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom” (v. 21-22). The rich man was “in torments” (v. 23), “tormented in this flame” (v. 24) and in a “place of torment” (v. 28) and Lazarus was “comforted” (v. 25).
Each of their abodes were final for between them there was a “great gulf fixed” (v. 26) which none could pass through.
The rich man appeared to have all his senses intact although his body was buried. It appears that the soul/spirit when it departs from the physical body does not remain dis-embodied. For the Christian, at least, Paul says, “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven” (2Corinthians 5:1-2)
Contrary to the clear teaching of the Scriptures, of an eternal state of fiery torment in hell for those who reject Christ, the Jehovah Witness believes that “The human soul ceases to exist at death” and that “Hell is mankind's common grave” ( Jehovah's Witnesses—Who Are They? What Do They Believe? http://www.watchtower.org/library/jt/article_03.htm ).
This is how they reason, “ death is a state of nonexistence. The dead have no awareness, no feelings, no thoughts…Since the dead have no conscious existence, hell cannot be a fiery place of torment where the wicked suffer after death…The Bible hell, then, is the common grave of mankind where good people as well as bad ones go.” (What Has Happened to Hellfire? The Watchtower July 15, 2002)
Jehovah Witness then choose not believe in the eternal conscious torment of the soul in hell. They believe that “ Such a fiendish idea is contrary to the God of the Bible, for "God is love."”(Christendom Has Betrayed God and the Bible; http://www.watchtower.org/library/pr/article_04.htm )
However it is impossible to escape the double-edged sword of God's Word. God so loved the world that He gave his only Begotten Son to suffer and die in our place. God has wonderfully provided salvation for all of mankind through the gift of His Son. But for those who reject Jesus Christ and trample under foot His precious blood, shed for sinners, there is only “a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries” (Hebrews 10:27).
These have chosen their own fate and condemned themselves in their persistent rejection of God who is love and can blame nobody but themselves for their separation from Christ forever. God not only Love He is also just. He created people to love, obey and enjoy Him forever. He gave them the moral capacity to choose between good and evil. However some choose evil.
R.A. Torrey has said “However, even then, God did not abandon them but made the greatest sacrifice in His power to save them from their own mad choice. He gave His Son to die for them so that repentance, forgiveness, life, and glory might be possible for them. If men see fit not only to choose evil but also, having chosen evil, to deliberately and persistently refuse the means of salvation that a loving God has provided for them at immeasurable cost to Himself, then their eternal punishment is their own fault. To blame God for it is not only to be appallingly unjust but also unpardonably ungrateful and unreasonable.”
The Bible distinctly teaches that all those who reject the redemption that we have in Christ Jesus will have an eternity of punishment. Jesus said “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire , prepared for the devil and his angels … these shall go away into everlasting punishment : but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:41,46).
We remember how the rich man was tormented in the fire of Hades after he died. He is not alone, for many others “shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night ” (Revelation 14:10-11). We cannot escape the terms “for ever and ever” .
We find the “beast” and the “false prophet” were “both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone” (Revelation 19:20). A thousand years later they are not annihilated but are still there. When “the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are , and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever ” (v. 20:10). In the Biblical sense, death never means extinction or annihilation but separation and for the beast and the false prophet their separation is in the lake of fire, where after a thousand years, they are still there.
These will not be the only ones there, but all the dead in Hades shall be resurrected “to shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), “the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death ” (Revelation 21:8).
The lake of fire is the final destination where all those who have been persistent in their rejection of Christ and obeyed not His gospel will be separated from God forever and forever, and will be “punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord , and from the glory of his power” (2Thessalonians 1:7-9).
Many shall think to enter the kingdom of God but shall be thrust out and cast “into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 13:42).
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
Mark 9:47-48 And if thine eye serve as a snare to thee, cast it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire, where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
The fire is always burning and the worms of death never die. Sounds pretty eternal to me.
Re 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
::::::::::::::::::::::
Quote:
First believe God and his word not man and his reasoning. First link to the Bible, get Bible in hand. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."
Proverbs 30:5,6
5.Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6.Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Revelation 22:18,19
18.For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.
19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Deuteronmy 12:32
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto,nor diminish from it.
Sounds like God means for his word to be left alone and to stand as he has given it.
things change, but God remains the same.
Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not, therefore ye sons of Ja'cob are not consumed.
Hebrews 13:8
Je'sus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
2 Samuel 22:31
As for God, his way is perfect;the word of the Lord is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.
I believe that Gods word stands forever.
:::::::
"Christian Universalism " is the position that all of mankind will ultimately be saved through Jesus whether or not faith is professed in him in this life. It claims that God's qualities of love, sovereignty, justice, etc., require that all people be saved and that eternal punishment is a false doctrine. Salvation is not from hell, but from sin.
"Christian Universalism" really isn't Christian and it is meshed with many other unorthodox and erroneous teachings. This belief system should be avoided.
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
What Men Have Said About Hell
NEHEMIAH ADAMS: "The Scriptures reveal a future state of reward and punishment. They teach that the body and soul will be joined in future hapiness and misery. Christ teaches that God can destroy both body and soul in Hell. Future punishment will therefore be a natural operation of moral laws, sustained and made effectual by the hand of God upon the sinner, who, by his state of depravity, will be made susceptible to misery forever. The essential elements of misery remain in the wicked after death. Redemption by Christ is represented as having for its object salvation from final perdition. No passage in the Bible discloses the future repentance of the wicked. The Bible closes with an express declaration of the future unchangeableness of character."
HYMAN J. APPLEMAN: "Should you make your abode in hell, you will see the burning faces, the glazed eyes, the totured hands of fellow prisoners of damnation. You will recognize, God forbid, husband, wife, father, mother, brother, sister, son, daughter, friend, neighbor, that you could easily have taken to heaven as dragged down to hell. Oh, that awful mass of weeping, wailing humanity that inhabits hell! They, too, cry one heaven-searching cry to God, but, alas too late. All cry that endless refrain, 'Forever! Forever!' Beyond God forever! Beyond Christ forever! Beyond the Spirit forever! Beyond the cross forever! Byond the blood forever! Beyond tears forever! Beyond repentance forever! Beyond faith forever! Beyond confession forever! Beyond time forever! Beyond eternity forever! Forever! Forever! Forever!"
ARMINIAN BAPTISTS IN ENGLAND: "These baptists affirmed belief in 'an eternal judgement... which is unalterable and irrevocable.'"
AUGSBURG CONFESSION: "Christ shall appear to judge... ungodly men and the devils shall He condemn unto endless torment."
EMERY H. BANCROFT: "We know the enormity only by God's own declaration with regard to it, and by the sacrifice which He has made to redeem us from it. As committed against an infinite God, and as having in itself infinite possibilities of evil, it may itself be infinite, and may deserve infinite punishment. Hell, as well as the cross, indicates God's estimate of sin."
RICHARD BAXTER: "What a subtle tempter Satan is. What a decietful thing sin is. What a foolish creature corrupted man is. A subtle tempter indeed, who can persuade the greatest part of the world to go willfully into everlasting fire, when they have so many warnings and dissuasives as they have. A decietful thing is sin indeed, that can bewitch so many thousands to part with everlasting life, for a thing so base and utterly unworthy! A foolish creature is man indeed, who will be so cheated of his salvation for nothing, yea, for a known nothing; and that by an enemy and a known enemy. You would think it impossible that any man in is wits should be persuaded for a trifle to cast himself into the fire, or water, or into a cold pit, to the destruction of his life. And yet men will be enticed to cast themselves into hell.
HENRY WARD BEECHER: "I do not accept the doctrine of Hell because I delight in it. I would cast in doubts if I could till I had filled Hell up to the brim. I would destroy all faith in it, but htat would do me no good; I could not destroy the thing. I cannot alter the stern fact. The exposition of future punishment in God's Word is not to be regarded as a threat, but as a merciful declaration. If in the ocean of life over which we are bounded for eternity, there are rocks and shoals, it is no cruelty to chart them down, it is an eminent and gracious mercy."
BELGIC CONFESSION (1561): "The consideration of the judgement is justly terrible and dreadful to the wicked and ungodly... who shall be convicted by the testimony of their own conciences, and being immortal, shall be tormented in that everlasting fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels."
JOE BOYD: "Now the physical side of this world is temporary, but Hell's fire is eternal. The rich man in the account given by Jesus was tormented in the 'flame' (Luke 16:24). The pitful part about it is that he is still in the same flame."
FRED BROWN: "Some object to the preaching of this truth [hell] on the grounds that children shouldn't hear it. It shocks them, according to some. I was shocked by it when I was seven. So shocked to learn that I was a sinner and on my way to hell, that I ran straight into the arms of Christ. God knows better than man, what to put in His Word, and all that is in the Word should be preached to all ages."
HARRY BUIS: "We have been led to a serious study of this subject [Hell] for several reasons. One is that there is no other doctrine that is clearly taught in Scripture which is so greatly denied or ignored in our modern theological world..."
JOHN CALVIN: John Calvin refers to Hell as "this gulf of perdition" and declares that "no description can equal the severity of the Diving vengeance on the reprobate, their anguish and torment are figuratively represented under corporal images; as darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth, unextinguishable fire, a worm incessantly gnawing the heart."
B.H. CARROLL: He warned stubborn unbelievers: "You are just as certain for Hell s if you were there today."
LEWIS SPERRY CHAFER: "The conclusion of the matter is that God, because of His holiness, cannot save the lost unless His holy demands are met for the sinner, as they are met in the death of Christ; and to be unsaved or outside the grace of God as it is in Chirst, is to be destined to eternal retribution. God can do no more than to provide a perfect salvation, which is provided at infinite cost. When love would pay such a price that a sinner may be saved and holiness remain untarnished, it ill becomes finite men to tamper with these immutable realities. Those who resent the idea of eternal retribution are, in fact, resenting divine holiness."
F.W. CONRAD: "From the facts and arguments just presented, the conclusion is inevitable, that the testimony of the conscience of every rational and responsible being in the moral universe, on earth, in heaven, and in hell, corroborates the testimony of the perfect conscience of God, that the eternal damnation of the wicked is just."
W.E. DOWELL: "There is a day of judgement! God must and will punish sin! Man will give an account unto God, and man will pay the final penalty for his sin, summed up in the words of Revelation 20:15. 'And whosoever was no found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.' This is the second death. That is not an imaginary hell. It is a real hell. It is not imaginary fire and brimstone. It is a real fire and brimstone, and souls and bodies that cannot perish, but are capable of the greatest amount of suffering, will be plunged into hell and suffer; not for a day, nor a week, nor a month, nor year, nor a century, nor a millennuim, but for all the ceaseless ages of eternity! What a price for lost souls to pay!"
ENGLISH BAPTISTS: "... the unsanctified, which have not known God, and have no obeyed the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall go into everlasting fire."
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
The Bible speaks of everlasting destruction for those who do not know Jesus.
2 Thessalonians 1
6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
the main thrust of most hell fire preachers seems to be the exploitation of the biblical naive. usually these are the types that seek not the salvation of souls but power over individuals that fall into their traps.
I disagree. In fact, I see the opposite. I see that it is the majority of preachers that will not preach hell or sin that seek to manipulate and control the people today because they have made merchandise of the people and they need to keep the money flowing. It is the preacher that appeals to the itching ear of man's flesh that seeks to control men. The preacher that is teaching sin and hell fire is calling the sinner to repent and be led by God not men and not worldliness of the flesh.
Amen and Amen!!!!
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by RioLion:
David - sorry about the AC-DC thing but I am aware of the techniques of switch and bait arguments that you are trying to use.
I am continuing on the other tread as I believe that Born Again has this subject closer to the bullseye then I do.
::::::::::
I think I would watch the bad mouthing if I were you.
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Matthew 5:22 but I—I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.
Matthew 5:29 ‘But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
Matthew 5:30 ‘And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
Matthew 10:28 ‘And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
Matthew 11:23 ‘And thou, Capernaum, which unto the heaven wast exalted, unto hades shalt be brought down, because if in Sodom had been done the mighty works that were done in thee, it had remained unto this day;
Matthew 16:18 ‘And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
Matthew 18:9 ‘And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire.
Matthew 23:15 ‘Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen—ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.
Matthew 23:33 ‘Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
Mark 9:43 ‘And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire—the unquenchable—
Mark 9:45 ‘And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire—the unquenchable—
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire—
Luke 10:15 ‘And thou, Capernaum, which unto the heaven wast exalted, unto hades thou shalt be brought down.
Luke 12:5 but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him.
Luke 16:23 and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,
Acts 2:27 because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption;
Acts 2:31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
James 3:6 and the tongue is a fire, the world of the unrighteousness, so the tongue is set in our members, which is spotting our whole body, and is setting on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by the gehenna.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,
Revelation 1:18 and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.
Revelation 6:8 and I saw, and lo, a pale horse, and he who is sitting upon him—his name is Death, and Hades doth follow with him, and there was given to them authority to kill, (over the fourth part of the land,) with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and by the beasts of the land.
Revelation 20:13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
Revelation 20:14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire—this is the second death;
![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
sister helpforhomeschoolers, busy bee that she is, wrote quote:
I believe that there is realy a need for having the lost face their sin when preaching the gospel and that should include the preaching of sin and hell as Jesus did.
Yes, preach sin and hell as Jesus did, and that includes making a purposeful distinction between tartaros, hades, and gehenna. Jesus was not slothful and did not say, "hell", "hell", hell" for all 3 of them. Jesus used the 3 words carefully and to suit His Purpose. We should preach sin and hell like Jesus, couldn't agree with you more.
BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
I wish I watched movies or read fiction, I bet that is a funny analogy! It made be chuckle with out knowing the scene!
Tell me this, have you read or listened to Sinners in the hands of an angry God? If so, do you see that this is what Edwards is doing?
I dont and I see that. And I believe that there is realy a need for having the lost face their sin when preaching the gospel and that should include the preaching of sin and hell as Jesus did.
I think that it is because I am so very aware that if it had not been for the fact that the woman who preached the gospel to me as a child was so careful to make sure that I really understood and that when I said I believed I really did believe and also that I did at that time confess my sins to God....... if she had not been so careful to give to me the WHOLE FULL TRUE GOSPEL, I might have believed with my head and not my heart, and there were things that I later went through that could have cost my soul, but I was saved and sealed by the Holy Ghost and so, while I lost much in this life through my heathen pagan canality in my growing up, I did no lose my soul and Christ was able to bring me eventually to the place I am today.
I really really fear for some today where so many are preaching a partial or another Gospel.
And I agree that the Bible does say that immortality is a gift of Christ that we must put on.
I do not think that fact contradicts that hell is an everlasting fire or that being punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power is an eternal punishment. Damantion is eternal!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
RioLion
unregistered
|
posted
"I see that it is the majority of preachers that will not preach hell or sin ..."
You are probably right in that many preachers teach a "feel good" religion instead of preaching the entire content of the Word.
Hell will be the destiny of the condemned but my conclusion is that since only God has immortality and that only the redeemed will receive immortality, not the condemned, that punishment in hell will not be continuous but only to the point that merits the punishment.
My impression of the hell fire preachers is one of the Elmer Gantry style - the Sinclair Lewis novel where a con-artist teamed up with a woman to exploit the naive. One of their methods was to scare the bejesus out of people in order to subdue them.
IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
quote:
the main thrust of most hell fire preachers seems to be the exploitation of the biblical naive. usually these are the types that seek not the salvation of souls but power over individuals that fall into their traps.
I disagree. In fact, I see the opposite. I see that it is the majority of preachers that will not preach hell or sin that seek to manipulate and control the people today because they have made merchandise of the people and they need to keep the money flowing. It is the preacher that appeals to the itching ear of man's flesh that seeks to control men. The preacher that is teaching sin and hell fire is calling the sinner to repent and be led by God not men and not worldliness of the flesh.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
RioLion
unregistered
|
posted
the main thrust of most hell fire preachers seems to be the exploitation of the biblical naive. usually these are the types that seek not the salvation of souls but power over individuals that fall into their traps.
IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
I like hell fire preachers! Jesus was a hell fire preacher:
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Jesus said the God can destroy body and soul in hell. I dont know about you, but to me that is thing to be feared.
Paul said, it was a flaming fire of vengence that would be brought upon the ungodly who would be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the LORD.... that to me is a horror to be feared.
2 Thessolonians 2:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
It seems that Paul too was a hell fire preacher!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
RioLion
unregistered
|
posted
David - sorry about the AC-DC thing but I am aware of the techniques of switch and bait arguments that you are trying to use.
I am continuing on the other tread as I believe that Born Again has this subject closer to the bullseye then I do.
IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
RioLion,
>> If you like AC-DC songs
I did not say I liked AC DC songs.
Don't put words in my mouth, thank you.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
We need some real good hell-fire preachers today!
But we need ones that know how to preach 'hell-fire’ effectively.
Preaching the reality of hell, without using the Law to bring the knowledge of sin, can do a great deal of damage to the cause of the gospel. A sinner cannot conceive of the thought that God would send anyone to hell, as long as he is deceived into thinking that God’s standard of righteousness is the same as his.
Paul "reasoned" with Felix regarding righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come (Acts 24:25). This is the righteousness that is of the Law and judgment by the Law.
Felix "trembled" because he suddenly understood that his intemperance made him a guilty sinner in the sight of a holy God. The reality of hell suddenly became reasonable to him when the Law was used to bring the knowledge of sin. Imagine if the police burst into your home, arrested you, and shouted, "You are going away for a long time!" Such conduct would probably leave you bewildered and angry. What they have done seems unreasonable. However, imagine if the law burst into your home and instead told you specifically why you were in trouble: "We have discovered 10,000 marijuana plants growing in your back yard. You are going away for a long time!" At least then you would understand why you are in trouble. Knowledge of the law you have transgressed furnished you with that understanding. It makes judgment reasonable. Hell-fire preaching without use of the Law to show the sinner why God is angry with him will more than likely leave him bewildered and angry—for what he considers un- reasonable punishment.
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
No matter the twisting and wresting of scripture the Word declares that there IS ETERNAL PUNISHMENT for the lost. Our Lord declared it, and those who deny it deny the clear exegetical meaning of scripture.
http://www.matthewmcgee.org/hel4ever.html
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Revelation 14:9-11).
Notice the phrase: "... in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb ...." I will comment more on this later.
The only way that their smoke can ascend up forever is if they are on fire and are not consumed by the flame. One may be reminded of Moses and the burning bush: "And the Angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt" (Exodus 3:2-3).
This next passage from Luke shows that the wicked from the Old Testament went to a place of flames and torment. Jesus told of the account of Lazarus and the rich man. We know that this is not a parable because the actual names of Lazarus, Abraham, and Moses are given. The rich man was not in the Lake of Fire yet, but rather, he was, and still is, in Hades. The differences between the Lake of Fire and Hades are discussed in detail in part 2.
"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:19-31).
Notice that the rich man is conscious, in great agony, and well aware of the fact that he cannot leave.
Jesus often spoke of eternal torment for the lost during his earthly ministry:
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43-48). Also see Isaiah 66:22-24.
The Greek word translated "worm" in the above passage is "skolex", which is simply a worm. Worms scavenge dead flesh and are mentioned doing so in several places in scripture such as Job 21:26 and Isaiah 14:11. Acts 12:23 describes how God smote Herod Agrippa I dead, "And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost." The phrase "eaten of worms" is translated from the Greek word "skolekobrotos" which comes from "skolex". Therefore, the statement, "their worm dieth not", may be a reference to how in the Lake of Fire the body (upon which the worms feed) will never be consumed.
Also in Mark 9:43-48 above, the Greek word translated as "never shall be quenched" is "asbestos", which is also sometimes translated "unquenchable". Asbestos is the substance which was used for insulation and for fire safety before it was discovered that its fibers could cause cancer. You may recall using a Bunsen burner in high school science lab and setting a beaker over the flame supported by a white mesh pad made of asbestos. Asbestos is a mineral fiber that can be woven like wool or cotton. Even in ancient times, it was valued because it does not burn. The Greeks sometimes even used it as napkins! They would wipe the food from their mouths with asbestos napkins and throw them into the fire. The flame would burn off the mess, but not consume the asbestos napkin. So it could be used over and over again. Likewise, the body of the lost person will not be consumed by the Lake of Fire, but will exist in the flames for ever.
In the passage below, we see the fate of the great ***** of Revelation chapter 17.
"For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great ***** , which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever" (Revelation 19:2-3).
At the end of Jesus Christ's 1000 year reign on earth, Satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire, where the AntiChrist (Beast) and false prophet will have been for 1000 years. The rest of the lost of all time periods will go into the Lake of Fire following Satan.
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10-15).
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
RioLion
unregistered
|
posted
No David the point made is that we have all too long subscribed to a bad theology of hell as being a place of continued torment.
Perhaps this view is a good one for the hell fire and damnation preachers designed to scare the living daylight out of people in an effort to control the naive and their financial resources.
We need to search the truth in the teachings of the church - some which have seen changes over the years.
If you like AC-DC songs, that is fine with me, but not on my subscription list. Perhaps they are in the same class but a little different color than the hell fire preachers.
IP: Logged |
|
|
RioLion
unregistered
|
posted
Another good argument against the view that hell is a place of eternal punishment is with the concept of immortality. Is the soul immortal? The Bible denies the immortality as we read in 1 Timothy 6:15-16 that only God alone possesses immortality. And 1 Corinthians 15:53 teaches that the Redeemed will not become immortal until the time of their resurrection. In other words, immortality is a gift of God which He gives in His grace to the Redeemed at the time of their resurrection.
There is no need to believe in an eternal Hell if the soul is not intrinsically immortal. For one to suffer eternal punishment in hell, that person would have to be granted the gift of immortality.
Again, the concept of eternal punishing of the damned would impugn the very character of God. And that is a major problem with the interpretation that the damned will suffer continual torment in hell.
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
RioLion
unregistered
|
posted
There are some problems with the traditional view of hell being a place of continual eternal punishing.
First of all, there is a difference between eternal punishment and eternal punishing. It is one thing to experience a punishment that is eternal in its consequences; it is another thing to experience eternal punishing.
The Bible also speaks of eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:2). Is that a judgment that continues eternally, or is it a judgment with eternal consequences? Likewise, the Bible speaks of eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12). But this does not mean that Christ will continue the act of redemption eternally. That act took place at the Cross, once and for all. It was an eternal redemption because the result of the redemption had eternal consequences.
Secondly, those that hold the traditional view often cite Revelation 14:9-11 to demonstrate that the suffering of the wicked will be eternal. They most often highlight two phrases. The first refers to those who take the mark of the beast during the Tribulation, who will be "tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels." The second is that "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever." Notice that this passage does not speak of eternal torment. Rather, it speaks of "the smoke of their torment" ascending forever.
The Bible is its own best interpreter, and when you look up statements similar to this you will find that they are symbolic for a punishment that has eternal consequences, not a punishment that continues eternally. For example, consider Isaiah 34:10 which speaks of the destruction of Edom. It says the smoke of Edom's destruction will "go up forever." But anyone that has been to Edom will note that there was no smoke ascending to heaven. The reference to eternal smoke is obviously symbolic, indicating that Edom's destruction will give eternal testimony to how God deals with a sinful society.
The same is true of Jude 7 when it says that Sodom and Gomorrah experienced "the punishment of eternal fire." The area is one of utter devastation, but there is no smoke going up to heaven. They are not burning eternally. They simply suffered a fiery destruction that had eternal consequences.
Reference: http://www.lamblion.com/PI-00.php
The Nature of Hell - An Eternal Punishment
or Eternal Torment?
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
