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Author
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Topic: the shroud of Turin, or now, more fashionably, the shroud of Torino: Que dice?
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
hey brother Robby, I greatly enjoyed all of your post, especially also the notice that our salvation does not depend on a relic but on what Jesus did on the cross.
that said, thank you so much for that interesting evidence.
BORN AGAIN in the USA by the ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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Robby
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Member # 448
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posted
Whether or not one thinks the Shroud of Turin is authentic or not, it's irrelevant to the Christian faith. Our faith does not hinge upon a relic, but upon the Lord Jesus Christ.
Now, having made that disclaimer, let me proceed with the idea that Shroud is a painting. I myself an artist, my expertise is in oil painting, though I also work in other media (I could post you a picture or two of my work to prove it). So when I tell you the Shroud could not have been done by an artist, I am speaking from a wealth of knowledge and experience.
A number of errors have been made on the side claiming the Shroud to be a forgery. The Carbon 14 test results offers an age range of the Shroud between AD 1260 - 1390. The two greatest artist in mankind's history came much later--Leonard DaVinci was not born until 1452 and Michaelango in the year 1475. The best artist in the world at the time of the given Carbon 14 date was Giotto (1267-1337). Giotto was a brilliant artist who revolutionized the western arts, but as good as he was, he just did not have the skill to create something like the Shroud.
As painter myself, I can tell you the Shroud goes far beyond what any artist would ever do. The technical skill needed to create an anatomically correct human body where both front and back views of the person match up perfectly would have had to have been exceptionally rare. The artist would have had to have painted the image in pale, light hues and do it in the negative--knowing photography (which did not exist for another half millenium) would bring out it's details.
The Shroud image is not created by light and shadow. The artist would have had to have thought of using perspective and foreshortening which was not understood by artists until the 15 century. Furthermore, there is no preparatory layer, rather the image is laid down on raw linen. While Walter McCrone did find iron oxide and mercury, nowhere on the Shroud are there sufficient concentrations of these chemical components of paint pigments to form a visible image. Moreover, McCrone’s findings do not establish that paint was used on the Shroud.
Dr. McCrone also claims blood has not been found, but this is not true. In fact, DNA has also been discovered on the Shroud. In 1992, Dr Victor Tryon, Director of Texas's Center for Advanced DNA Technologies, tested samples removed from the shroud bloodstains and detected DNA fragments. Tryon succeeded in identifying three gene fragments. Studying a sticky tape bearing a 1.5mm 'blood' fragment Dr.Tryon unhesitatingly confirmed it as human blood, type AB, which carried both the X and Y chromosomes that indicate male sex. A second fragment furnished an identical result. Small amounts of DNA present on the shroud could be detected using a method called the Polymerase Chain reaction (PCR).
In 1981, Dr. Alan Adler applied microspectrophotometric analysis of a "blood particle" from one of the fibrils of the shroud and unmistakeably identified hemoglobin in the acid methemoglobin form due to great age and denaturation. Further tests by Dr. John Heller and Adler established, within scientific certainty, the presence of porphyrin, bilirubin, albumin and protein.
In fact, when proteases were applied to the fibril containing the "blood," the blood dissolved from the fibril leaving an imageless fibril. Working independantly with a larger sample of blood containing fibrils, pathologist Pier Baima Bollone, using immunochemistry, confirmed Heller and Adler’s findings and identified the blood of the AB blood group.
(Now before you respond, please go back and reread the bold type.)
Posts: 364 | Registered: Sep 2002
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BORN AGAIN
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you do realize that the way the shroud was "painted" that is was painted so that the actual picture only showed up in the negative of a film.
the creation of the shroud's picture preceded the discovery of phtography and film, so there would have been NO WAY that the original creator of the shroud's image could have TESTED his image to see how it now loooked.
your scepticism is admirable, but also astonishing, almost Darwinian.
are you saying that the shroud is a forgery and if so, how do you propose someone made it, please?
thanks, BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
When the shroud was first discovered, I thought oh, is this not cool! The closer we get the return of Christ the more I believe that the shroud is the work of the enemy. For one thing the image in the shroud appears to me to be very european and not Hebrew or Middle Eastern. But also, I believe that we may very well see a counterfeit Messiah appearing that will look like the image on the shroud. Remember that Islam is also expecting Jesus to appear on the scene and tell the world that Allah is God and Mohammad was right. Now we have the Roman Church saying that it will not be Jesus, but one with his traits that returns... I think it is all part of the coming deceptions.
Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Our belief is by faith and in faith and not by or in things seen.
So, today, I no longer think the shroud is a good thing or an image of Christ.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
Heb. 11:
1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
God bless you;
We are to place our faith and trust solely in Christ, as revealed through His Word. I was reminded of the supposed Ossuary of James which recently surfaced, and was heralded do to the inscription, "James the Brother of Jesus", and then was later declared to be a fraud.
How many books and movies have been made about the power of icons and relics? I am reminded of the Indiana Jones and the miracle power in such as the Ark of the Covenant, and of the Chalice.
I am reminded of the Passion movie, and how there was the non-Biblical scene of Mary, after the scourging, mopping-up the sacred blood with cloths given by Pilot's wife. Of history and how the bones of the Apostles were divided-up and placed in individual churches and how there was supposed to be great power and blessing in the bones themselves. The bones of Peter are buried beneath the Basilica in Rome. These relics were venerated, worshipped down through the ages. I wonder how many have knelt in homage before the Shroud of Turin?
It was not the Chalice itself which was to be honored, but the sacrifice which it represented, not the bread which represents, but He who is the Bread of life.
It was not the seamless robe which adorned His shoulders, which heals us from our sins, but the stripes which those sacred shoulders bore for our trangressions. It is not the respective drops of blood which stained the soil so long ago which is our salvation, but He from whom the blood poured who is our redemption, our eternal justification.
It is not the very wood of the Cross which we honor and adore, but God incarnated and choosing to hang and die upon the instrument of torture and death in our place, Who we worship and bow down before.
The closest I come to homage, being swept-up in reverential awe upon beholding that which is substantial, is when I take His Word in my hands and read those sacred words of God.
How many make the pilgramige to Jerusalem to walk the Via De La Rosa, to enter the "tomb", to walk the way of the Cross, to journey to Bethleham to enter the "birthplace"?
How many resources are expended in maintain great edifices, to journey to behold the physical realms of substance, when so many have yet to place their faith and trust in Christ alone?
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
Amen Dale!!
The shroud of Turin has no more validity then the multitude of slivers of the "cross" which have been sold to the gullible, down through the ages.
The image is that of a western European, just as so much of the religous artwork from the middle ages. There are those who place their faith in relics, and then there are those who place their faith in Christ alone, for faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not SEEN.
ohn 11:
44: And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
Luke 24:
12: Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.
John 20:
5: And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6: Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7: And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
It appears that there was normally a napkin which bound the head separate from the linen which wrapped the body. There would have been no face impression on the linen which bound the body, and no body impression on the head linen.
http://www.barr-family.com/godsword/burial.htm
After all the members of the body were straightened, the corpse was clothed in grave vestments made out of white linen. There could not be the slightest ornamentation or stain on the cloth. The grave linens were sewn together by women. No knots were permitted. For some this was to indicate that the mind of the dead was "disentangled of the cares of this life". To others, it indicated the continuity of the soul through eternity. No individual could be buried in fewer than three separate garments.
At this point, the aromatic spices, composed of a fragrant wood powdered into a dust known as aloes, were mixed with a gummy substance known as myrrh. Starting at the feet, they would wrap to the armpits, put the arms down, then wrap to the neck. A separate piece was wrapped around the head. I would estimate an encasement weighing a total of between 92 and 95 pounds.
John Chrysostom, in the fourth century A.D., commented that "the myrrh used was a drug which adheres so closely to the body that the graveclothes could not easily be removed."
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
I believe “The Shroud of Turin” to be a fake.
The Roman Catholic Church puts importance on things they can see and touch.
The True Child of Yahweh has been called to walk by Faith.
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) (KJV)
First problem is the image is too neat. Imagine the scene--imagine draping a cloth over a body. It isn't like laying a cloth over a box. The body is a three dimensional irregular shape. That means in some places, like the stomach, the cloth will lay flat; on the head, it will follow the contours. Drape a towel over your own head, and watch what happens. Why do we see only the front of the face, and not the sides?
Second problem is similar, but a little different. Those who believe in the Shroud talk about it being projected through some sort of radiation or something at, say, the moment of the Resurrection. There are going to be distortions whenever you project an image of a three dimensional figure onto a flat surface. This is the problem with map-making.
Then there's the matter of the blood. There's just not enough of it, and it isn't caked and matted enough, it hasn't seeped into the material. The body of Jesus was taken down and wrapped hurriedly, and the woman were going back Sunday morning to do the formal preparation. What "blood trickles" are visible are too neat, and do not look like a bandage (the Shroud) was actually pressed against it.
Mark 15:46: "And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre." (KJV)
Mark 15:46 states that Jesus was wrapped in linen. "The Greek verb used means 'press in,' "pack,' 'force in.' Matthew and Luke obviously found the word somewhat unseemly and replaced it with one that means 'envelop.' But the clear implication of all three synoptics is that the material was bound tightly round the body." 1 The Shroud of Turin shows an image made by simply lying a linen shroud on top of the front of the body, over the head and down the back.
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Luke 24:12: "Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass." The New International Version (NIV) renders this passage: "Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves..."
Luke 24:12 says that Peter observed the "...linen clothes laid by themselves..." If Jesus had not been wrapped in linen strips, but had been enclosed by the Shroud of Turin, one would expect Luke to have written that Peter saw the "...linen cloth laid by itself..." And the NIV translation would not have mentioned "strips of linen."
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John 19:39-40: "And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury."
John 19:40 indicates that Jesus burial was a normal one, following the Jewish traditions. Thus, Joseph of Arimethea would have washed the body. The body shown in the Shroud of Turin was not washed.
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John 20:6-7: "Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself." Again, the NIV refers to "strips of linen."
John 20:6 repeats the events recorded by Luke; he mentions that Peter saw "the linen clothes," not the linen cloth.
John 20:7 makes a point of mentioning that there was a head covering -- a napkin -- as well as the (plural) "linen clothes." This passage describes multiple clothes. It does not match the shroud of Turin which is a single panel of linen.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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BORN AGAIN
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I have a photo of the face on the negative of the shroud of Turin always before me at my computer.
What do you think of the shroud? Que dice?
In brief from what I remember a point or two, sometime in the 1800s a photographer took a photo of the shroud and to his amazement he discovered something that he never discovered again afterward.
Namely that the shroud showed its true face in the negative!!!
That was completely abnormal, for in photography, when film is developed to a negative, what is light in real life shows up in shades of black in a normal photographic negative and what is black in real life shows up in a normal photographic negative as shades of light; in other words, opposite of real life in the negative image.
But astonishingly, the shroud of Turin is in the reverse; the only object on earth that is like it.
When the shroud of Turin is photographed, the real image instead comes out, with light being light and dark being dark. That is why the photographer was astonished.
And what is more astonishing is that the real image on the negative was that of a very peaceful-looking man, a Middle Eastern-looking man.
I think that Middle Eastern-looking man is my Lord God Jeshua-Jesus. I can't absolutely prove it, of course, but there is other evidence which I'd have to look up.
What do you think about the shroud of Turin?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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