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Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
revival will happen when the LORD and the Lord are ready for revival, not before, nor after, but in due season:


And that is still going on. Are we still in the dispensation of the fulness of time?

Acts 2
15 For these are not drunken, as you suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 "And it shall come to pass in the last days," says God, "I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh[/b]: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams."

Apostacy, or revival?
15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


BORN AGAIN in Him.

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Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
God is good Aaron. I was posting as you were and did not see what you wrote. I seems that we have come to unity of Spirit and Faith! I love you brother!

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Amen sis. That was wonderful!

Aaron

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Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

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11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

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12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

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13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

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Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

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15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

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16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

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Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
helpforhomeschoolers wrote:How did go into all the world and teach men to observe all things that I have taught you, baptizing to become... Go out there and win some souls for me? How did we come to miss that God's will for us... that which is predestined for us is that we be transformed into the image of Christ...these are the reasons we are here. To worship, to glorify, to occupy, to stand as a witness to his peace, joy and power, that he is so lifted up that men are drawn to him.


?????????????????????????did I get this wrong???????
The ROLE of the church is not evangelism!!!!

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"It will not be about what I can get from God
It will not be Bless me Lord
It will not be about name it and claim it
It will not be about My finances
It will not be about Gods gonna do a new thing
It will not be about the music, dance, dramas

I say if revival is to come, then it comes only with true repentance, broken and contrite hearts.

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Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
we must share it until our last second in this earth suit.

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The gospel will go out unto the end of this age. No worries.

Aaron

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However, the role of the church is not evangelism...evangelism is merely one of the gifts given to the church to accomplish the desire of our Lord.

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Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Show me revival in Laodicea!

Rev 2:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

The church of Laodicea thinks she is doing great...she parades her wealth and blessing and prosperity... there is nothing she needs and yet she does not have the ONE thing that she does need.


Do we not know that we are living in the age of Laodicea?????? I really pray that this is not the case. I really pray that there are none here that are that blinded by the enemy. We are not supposed to have any doubt about the season that we are in, though none of us knows the day nor the hour of HIS return. We should all be watching and listening.

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Even Laodicea has a chance. Rev 3:18-19
"I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire, that you may become rich, and white garments, that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed, and eye salve to annoint your eyes, that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, be zealous therefore and repent."

Sounds like a possible revival=Repentance.

Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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We may not be in the last days so revival is definitely still an option

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Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Aaron

Sermons like the one you posted are disturbing because he preaches the "docrines of men" he claims preaches against.

He is so sure he knows how it will all play out at the end, it's kind of scary, that so many people are fooled by his dissertion.

I think it's an old magician's trick called verbal sleight of hand.

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Originally posted by fluffyknitter:
Hey Guys...
The only thing that i was saying with my first post was basicly (what do you think it will take to bring revival... i wanted your answers to THAT questions... not (do you think revival can even happen) Because i know it can... it happens all the time.. we sometimes just dont see it...i didnt want it to turn into some.. i know more than you do about the bible..kinda thing... maybe i was wrong for even posting this..

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Endtime Harvest

By Sam Soleyn

The Harvest at the End of the Age

I would like for us to begin today's discussion with a reading from the 13th chapter of the book of Matthew. If you would turn with me to Matthew 13 at verse 24, I'd like to read a parable to you. "Jesus told them another parable: The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. The owner's servants came to him and said, Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?' An enemy did this,' he replied. The servants asked him, Do you want us to go and pull them up?' No,' he answered, because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'" (Mt. 13:24-30)

This is commonly known as "the parable of the tares and the wheat" or "the parable of the weeds and the wheat," and it's a remarkable story about the kingdom. At one level, it illustrates our anticipation of a harvest at the end of the age. On another level, it represents what the Scriptures speak about as a great falling away - the tares being pulled out, separated from the wheat.

Commonly, our view of the harvest at the end of the age is a view of the harvest that is not accurate - at least not entirely. Our view is that at the end of the age there will be a large number of new converts flocking into the kingdom. So, we look at the harvest as being an incredibly rich, abundant number of people coming into the kingdom of God, because how else would you think about a harvest? Surely, a harvest is a large crop of things being reaped, and this parable says the kingdom of heaven is like that. That notion of the harvest is actually inconsistent with the other notion of the harvest also raised in the same passage; that is, that there is a great falling away. The weeds are pulled up out of the ground.

Matthew 24 tells us that there will be a great falling away. In passages from the book of 2 Thessalonians and other aspects of the writings of Paul on the end of the age, we learn that the man of lawlessness will be revealed at a time of a great falling away. What is going on? Is it going to be either that there are large numbers of people leaving the church as in a great falling away at the end of the age or will it be large numbers of people coming into the church? Which one is the accurate view of the harvest at the end of the age?

I'd like to, perhaps, suggest to you a different framing of the same thing. Now, notice this: that the harvest came from the field of the master that was already planted; but in the same field, there were tares and wheat. In the same field, there were weeds and good seed. The harvest is the harvest of the good seed. The weeds were not part of the harvest, although, they were in the same field. I'd like to suggest to you that the harvest at the end of the age is going to be a harvest of the true body of Christ distinguished from the wrong aspects of what passes itself as the body of Christ - but indeed is not. In other words, there's much error, much lawlessness that claims the covering of the kingdom of God but never belonged to the kingdom of God.

In fact, it was said about the tares that their origin was from an enemy. When the workers of the owner went to bear the news about these weeds that had sprung up in his field among the wheat, the remark of the owner of the field was, "An enemy has done this." You see, one of the classic tactics of the devil is to sow error in the church so that it comes to resemble the wheat. The counterfeit gospel has all of the appearances, at least in the initial stages, of the true gospel. All of the works of man planted in the body of Christ have all of the right-sounding phrases, all of the right-sounding concepts; but they're devoid of the life of the Spirit of God. That is why they are tares among the wheat. Jesus said, "In vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men." (Inserted - actual verses - "He (Jesus) replied, Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. They worship Me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'" Mk. 7:6-7 - see also Isa. 29:13)



What Will Really Be Harvested

In earlier programs, I've been talking about the effects of the doctrines of men upon the body of Christ. One of the principal effects is the division of the body of Christ. It divides the body along loyalties that are man-made, loyalties that originate in the philosophies of man. An example of that might be: We have a common phenomenon in the church today or among Christians today of churches and church groups that require loyalty to that particular group in order to be a member. So, for example, one could actually be a member of the body of Christ, saved, filled with the Holy Spirit, and so on, and be recognized as a member of the body of Christ. But in order to become a member of a particular church, one has to agree to a new set of dogmas, a new set of doctrines, a new set of creeds and covenants in order to be or to belong to that particular church.

Now, what's wrong with that picture - that you already belong to Christ, but you must come under a new set of covenants and agreements in order to belong to a particular church? Why? Why? What is the origin of these kinds of things that look like good seed? They look like wheat. What is the origin? The origin is the enemy. "For in vain," Jesus said, "they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." It's the commandments of men, reflective of the traditions of men, that make void the law of God. There's only one thing I have read in the Scriptures that makes void the law of God. It makes void what God wants to do, and it's the traditions of men.

So, there are tares among the wheat. In the end of the age, you see, all of these things will be swept away from the church. In the parable, the weeds were gathered out first. So, there is to be a great falling away, and what will fall away is the work of the enemy within the church. We are often so naive as to think that the enemy really never has an opportunity to deceive or seduce the body of Christ. Brethren, it is not everything that has the name, "Christ," attached to it that is the Lord. In fact, in our time, there is so much paraphernalia and all sorts of things that wear the label of, "Christ," that are as far from the kingdom of God as one could get - as tares are different from wheat.

In the end of the age, the first thing that God will do is pull up the tares from among the wheat. What remains will be the harvest. What remains is what He's coming for. But when we fail to believe this, then we have to invent a concept of the harvest that is actually not true. It's not reasonable. It doesn't even make sense - and that's the idea that Jesus Christ is coming back for, primarily, new converts. Now, notice the word I use. I use the term, "primarily." That means that I'm saying that the largest number of people who will be taken out of this world at the end of the age as the body of Christ - in my understanding of the harvest - will not be new Christians. That doesn't mean that there won be any new Christians. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't be involved in the business of evangelizing, but it means that our emphasis on evangelism as the character of the church at the end of the age is not an accurate perception.

I ask you this: Does any farmer harvest a field of newly-planted seed? What is there to harvest? Does a farmer go through his wheat field harvesting newly-emerged sprouts, new blades of the new crop of wheat? No. When is the harvest a harvest? It is ready after it is fully ripened. The harvest of the church is not any different from that. Even the Scriptures described what a harvest looks like. It says first, there is the blade; then, there's a stalk; then, there's the full corn in the ear. (inserted - actual verses - "For the earth yields crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, after that the full grain in the head. But when the grain ripens, immediately he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come." Mk. 4:28-29) That's what's the harvest - the thing that is full-term - that is ready and complete.

But our idea that the harvest will be of large numbers of new converts - because we don't know what to do with the idea of a harvest until we think about it in terms of an influx of new people - our idea, then - it's an idea looking for a place to express itself. It's really not a Biblical idea. That which does not belong to Christ but masquerades itself as being of Christ will be taken away. It will fall away because at the end of the age, the Lord has appointed that everything that can be shaken will be shaken. (inserted - actual verse - "Now this, Yet once more,' indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain." Heb. 12:27) The things that cannot be shaken are things that are not of this world. They do not have their origins in human thought. They do not have their source or the power of their life in human imaginations, or human abilities and or the energies of human beings. The kingdom of God has never been subject to the hand of man.



The Hand of Man on the Things of God

There is a story in the Old Testament about how the children of God were moving the ark of the covenant back to Jerusalem. It was put in an ox cart instead of on the shoulders of the priests as God had intended that it be transported. While the ox cart was moving along the road - and, obviously, bumping into ruts and the like - the ark began to fall off, and one named Uzzah - one can only assume he might have been a priest because of his proximity to the ark of the covenant - Uzzah reached out to steady the ark with his hands; and as his hands touched the ark, he was instantly killed. (Inserted - see 1 Chr. 13)

God wants us to understand that He was not to be offended by some dirt on the box of the ark, but God will always be offended by the hand of man on God. Let me explain. Every time we reach out to make God into our own image, He will always resist us. God will always resist the hand of man on God. We can never make God into our own image. Whatever we make and worship as God is not God. Most of these systems that we have created, and a vast number of the doctrines that support and prop up these systems have nothing to do with the kingdom of God. They are attempts by man to lay his hand upon God to make God into what man wants God to be. God will always resist the hand of man on God.

Our doctrines, and the efforts, and the constructions of man that originate with the ideas of man and are not the result of the Holy Spirit are no more than weeds among the wheat. They masquerade as if they are the wheat, but the truth is they are no more than weeds. They have life - sometimes in the early stages, they even look like wheat - but the truth and the reality is because of the origins of these doctrines and commandments - because they come from man - they will never be the good seed. They will always be weeds, and they will always be the work of the enemy within the church.

In the end of the age, God will send forth His reapers, and His angels will assist. As the things that offend are first moved out of the kingdom - as God moves these things out of His kingdom - then what remains is what He planted that has grown up into maturity. That is the good seed. Now, undoubtedly, there will be new converts among those, but the events of the end of the age will have the effect of hastening the maturity of the new converts because the next great event in the life of the body of Christ, following the end of the age, is where the church begins to rule and reign with Him.

Show me any father that ever committed rule and reign to his infant children. When they are infants, they are subject to tutors and governors until they have arrived at the requisite maturity that allows them to receive their inheritance. In the same way, the body of Christ will go through defining moments at the end of the age by which a great falling away occurs on the one hand, and by which the fruit of righteousness - the seed of God - the wheat - is matured suddenly and ready for the harvest.

I want to say to you that at the end of the age, perilous times will come for the church. These perilous times will be the orchestrations of God. He will allow them to occur as He brings distress upon the Earth, because He is shaking the heavens and the Earth. His shaking will result in a righteous people emerging, because the only thing that cannot be shaken is the kingdom of God in you.

If your trust is in the creed and doctrines of men, if your trust is in the traditions of men, if your trust to any degree rests in or resides within the teachings of men, I will have you know that in the coming days of this age - in the closing moments of this epoch - you will be confronted with such faith-shaking events that if your faith is based in the doctrines and traditions of men, your faith will give way because it cannot hold in the scrutiny that precedes His coming. The only basis upon which your faith will be maintained is the fact that your roots go down deeply into the soil of His Spirit, because the second Adam is a Life-giving Spirit. His Spirit gives life. If your faith is even in the dead letter - that is, you've taken Scripture, and you've constructed these doctrines out of Scripture, but in the process, you've excluded the Holy Spirit - you have used Scripture in an impermissible way, and the life of God is not in it.

In fact, there's a common occurrence in churches all over this nation and around the world today, and that is that there is no life in them. It isn't that there isn't life in the church, but there's not life in what men have done. You could call it the church, but if the Spirit of God does not move in it, and the life of God does not come forth, then it's not the church. Many people say, "Well, we believe in the Holy Spirit, and we think that the Holy Spirit is an accepted doctrine." The problem is that most people will say they believe in the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is never allowed to operate freely wherever the saints meet.

The reason is there's a preset agenda, because we have this idea of church. For us, church is a service performed by paid staff for the benefit of the spectators who assemble to participate. The role of most church members today is the role of spectators. They watch the paid staff perform, and they pay for the performance. The paid staff, you see, have a job to do. It is the reason they are supported. If you pay the staff, the staff feels like it's supposed to do something that justifies its pay.

The church of our Lord Jesus Christ is really not about gathering on a particular day to watch some people perform and to consume what has been prepared. The church is not a form of godliness. The church is a way of life. The body of our Lord Jesus Christ is a living, breathing, functioning entity that functions regularly within the marketplace of human interaction. It is not a weed. It is not something that imitates life. It is the true life of God within the body of His people.

So, these artificial things that we have done to simulate the life of God are no more than weeds, and they have no life within them. The artificiality of most church practice leaves the discerning members cold, because they go empty, and they come back empty. The only difference is they heard some things that may have affected them one way or another. Sometimes, the things they've heard may have offended them or affected them negatively. Sometimes, the things they hear affect them positively, but there's no long-term deposit of godliness in their lives. That's the nature of weeds. The weeds could be flowering plants - things that look like they have some use - but in the end, they do not.

The kingdom of heaven is like this parable, and it speaks of two types of lives. One life reflects the life of God, and the other life reflects the life of the enemy within the body of Christ because it was an enemy who sowed the tears among the wheat. Whatever the enemy sows, I can assure you, is not meant to promote the interests of Christ, for the enemy has but one purpose, and that purpose is to frustrate the will of God whenever he can among the people of God. So when the enemy takes an initiative, we can always anticipate that the end result will be not anything that glorifies God.

It is ironic that it is in this great falling away of the enemy's efforts from the body of Christ that the man of lawlessness will be revealed as the Scriptures say. The Scriptures say in 2 Thessalonians, the man of lawlessness will not be revealed until there has been a great falling away. (Inserted - see 2 Ths. 2:3) The reason for that is simple. Once all that is not of the church falls away - it's been shaken away by the events that we are about to face in the nation and in the world - once all of that is shaken away, then what is truly the work of the enemy is identifiable with that which has fallen away because it's no longer masquerading in the church as part of the church. If you shake it away, you pull it away, you move it away, then the contrast is what reveals what is good and what is evil - what is of God and what is of the enemy - who is of Christ and who is of the lawless one. That's the dichotomy. In this great falling away, you have both the harvest and the revelation of the man of lawlessness. Both will occur at the same time.

In the darkness that exists within the church, the enemy hides and breeds; but when in the fullness of time God begins to shake the church, the result will be there will be no place for the enemy to hide. He will turn, and he will viciously persecute those who are of Christ - because the only natural enemy of the antichrist is Christ.

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Originally posted by Aaron:

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Revival is taking the "land". Spiritually.

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See? You had to "spiritualize" it to support your rationale. Not a good sign.

And then you write this:

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The harvest is plenty, but the workers are few. The fields are white and ready to harvest.

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An obvious reference to these two verses:

Matt 9:37-38 "The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest."

and

John 4:35 "Do you not say, 'There are still four months and then comes the harvest'? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest!"

The explaination is given by Jesus in Matthew 13:37:
Sower of good seed = Son of Man
Field = the world
Good seeds = sons of the Kingdom
Tares = sons of the wicked one
Sower of tares = the devil
Harvest = the end of the age
Workers = angels

The harvest will occur at the end of the age. The workers of the harvest are the angels sent by our Lord. They will separate the wheat from the tares. As epouraniois, helpforhomeschoolers, and myself have said "The end of the age is marked by separation and falling away not by revival."

And here it is in black and white, Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, 'Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.'"

Aaron

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Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Revival is taking the "land". Spiritually.

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The harvest is plenty, but the workers are few. The fields are white and ready to harvest.

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Originally posted by Carmela:
We may not be in the last days so revival is definitely still an option. God comes when His people pray and seek Him. The reason we don't see more of an out pouring of God's spirit in the world today is because believe that the God of the bible stopped moving in that time and isn't moving today in the same way which is nonsense since God is the same today as He was then.

Live4Christ, part of the problem is that today people choose to limit God instead of seeking Him. People choose to follow their own ways instead of spending most of their time in prayer, worship and reading the Word. Some read the word and then say the God of that day isn't the same today.

As you said, people need to start standing together but instead people choose to demonstrate division which is evident on this site sometimes.

However, it has to start with you Live4Christ. It has to start with me also. When we start standing up and doing our part, then we will start to see a change around us. That change will spread to the nations also as we go forth preaching the Word of God, praying daily and when churches start to join together instead of continuing to divide. Also, people in every church need to start joining together and praying. Often when a church opens up prayer days, few people from the congregation actually attend which is sad when you think about it. The church today is lacking commitment when they choose not to attend prayer meetings in the church.

Love, Carmy

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Originally posted by Aaron:

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Originally posted by live4christonly:
and heal their land....

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My dear live4christonly,

What is the "land" of the Christians? Jesus said, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head."
I think you will find that the passage you quoted is for a particular people for a particular time. And, as helpforhomeschoolers pointed out(Hi Linda), there will be a great falling away...no revival.

Bless you,
Aaron

PS: A believer can pray for the revival of him/herself and should expect difficult trials if he/she does so.

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Originally posted by live4christonly:
and heal their land....

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