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Author
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Topic: What is the Kingdom of God on earth?
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epouraniois
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Born Again
Who do you think the current Israelis in the land of Israel are?
And a related question, do you agree that the house of Israel and the house of Judah are still mixed
Rev. 2.9, 3.9-10.
Noting that Zionism comes not from the Jews!
quote:
If Israel is currently among the nations, what do you mean when you say Israel as a nation?
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
A sent one, Biblically, is sent to a specific people, giving a specific message, and was never intended that when their letters are read, that the church assumes ownership of that which is given and sent only to them unto ourselves. The Lord and Saviour Jesus the Christ did not come for the church, even though He also died for the church, His body.
He came for His firstborn, born under sin, born into the adoption, as the kinsman redeemer. All Israel had heard by the end of Romans, fulfilling, as it is written:
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
quote:
So, epouraniois, when you say "Israel, as a nation must call upon the LORD first", which Israel do you have in mind?
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Just because they did not realize, could not bear the outcome of such an acknowledgment, in no wise negates that which had transpired. (the church body has the same problem).
The new covenant had been placed in affect for the Hebrew nation, based upon their repentance-
Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
- but cannot now be realized, for now is the time of the teaching of the church being raised and seated with Him, manifesting with Him when He manifests in glory, and not the time of the teaching of the kingdom coming to the earth.
NOTING too, that His holy prophets did not speak one word about the church, or the heavenly calling, or all things in heaven and in earth being put under His feet. They only spoke about His people, whom He would unite in the restitution of all things, pertaining to the earthly kingdom, not knowing, nor entering their mind that God had hid a secret in Himself regarding the church.
When the king comes to His earthly people, the church will have been manifested with Him at the time of His manifestation, Col.3.4.
Act 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. 12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
For the Jew to become a member of the one body, is by the choosing of Eph.1. 4, and must denounce their Jewishness just as Paul and Timothy had done, for we learned in the doctrinal section of the first letter written to the church body:
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
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WhiteEagle
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posted
Born Again we can't even believe enough on our own.
The way I understand Salvation:
John chapter 3, we must be Born Again.
John 14-17 We receive the Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit)
We must Repent of our sinful ways and call upon Jesus Christ to Receive Salvation.
Once we are Born Again we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:13-14. Our down payment for redemption.
IT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT BUILDS OUR FAITH AND KEEPS US IN THE FAITH.
Hebrews 12:2 "Jesus the AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH..."
In our human flesh we can not run the race to be overcomers without Christ through the Holy Spirit.
It is for these reasons I do believe the actual born again person can not lose their Salvation.
I do think that many "think" they are saved, but have never really had intimacy with God through the Holy Spirit. I think many have a false Salvation in that they rely on their own righteousness and ability to believe.
That is why James writes about faith without works is dead. There will be fruit if one is really saved. It's fruit of the Spirit, ie Holy Spirit, it's not fruit of ourselves by doing good things.
Falling from Grace: Some think this means someone keeps sinning and not changing their life, or they don't have enough Faith. Or it means one is a back slider.
Falling from Grace is when we do not accept Christ's gift of atonement and think we can do it ourselves. Works' Salvation makes the Cross of Christ of none effect and one is under the Law.
That is falling from Grace.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
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Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
But we must CONTINUE to BELIEVE all days our our life, else we will forfeit the BENEFITS of belief, namely, EXCHANGED RIGHTEOUSNESS. As longa s I ACTIVELY BELIEVE then my righteousness will not be counted and the righteousness of the Lord God Jeshuah-Jesus is counted as if it is mine. I am redeemed, if I still actively believe on my deathbed. No OSAS kick ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) here, my brother.
God bless, BORN AGAIN ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
Is this a little like Works based Salvation?
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
dear brother Bandit, you say in "no sheep are lost thread": quote:
now both you {WhiteEagle, I think} and BA (in his/her “not a sheep will be lost”thread) seem to be back on a “once saved always saved” kick.
May I have the pleasure of informing you that I am NOT a "once saved always saved" Christian? I believe the LORD YHWH and the Lord Jeshuah ask only one thing from us in return:
"that we believe unto the end", which I understand to mean "if I still am an active believer at the end of my life, then I am redeemed and paid for by the sufferings of Jeshuah on the cross outside the gates of Jerusalem.
brother bandit, brother BORN AGAIN is NOT a "once saved always saved" Christian. ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
bandit continues quote:
I suggest that before promoting this doctrine of yours further, that you really check it against much of the rest of scripture. If you would do this honestly you would recognize that this doctrine clashes with much of scripture, and is therefore a false doctrine.
Amen to that. I believe once saved always saved is a lie of Lucifer-Satan=Devil. The God of Israel says, believe unto the end:
Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Hebrews 4:14
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Hebrews 10:23
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he who endures TO THE END shall be saved.
2 Corinthians 1:13
For we write no other things to you, that what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;
Christianity is not a one-way street of offering. It's a two-way street of offering AND acceptance.
I believe the LORD God only asks us to do ONE THING: and that is believe that the LORD God of Israel if the Living God the Creator of heaven and earth, and humbly ask to be allowed to participate in the redemption which is by faith in the suffering of Lor God Jeshuah on the cross.
But we must CONTINUE to BELIEVE all days our our life, else we will forfeit the BENEFITS of belief, namely, EXCHANGED RIGHTEOUSNESS. As longa s I ACTIVELY BELIEVE then my righteousness will not be counted and the righteousness of the Lord God Jeshuah-Jesus is counted as if it is mine. I am redeemed, if I still actively believe on my deathbed. No OSAS kick here, my brother.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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WhiteEagle
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Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bandit:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
...Now in one parable the servant of the King is forgiven a large debt through the mercy of the King. Then that same servant puts another person in prison for their debt to himself. The servant does not display forgiveness and mercy to others after he received forgiveness and mercy from the King.
This ungrateful servant is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and regret ie gnashing of teeth, by the King.
This parable isn't about losing Salvation...
WhiteEagle, the persistence of you and others in the application of your ‘once saved always saved’ is enough to make me puke. When will you guys take a hint from scripture?
BA recently started a thread called, “did Jesus pay the price for 100% of sins?” I think I placed about 3 posts in that thread. Please read through them. BA indicated that he/she was having problems understanding how Jesus could pay the penalty for the sins of all, yet all are not saved. In particular, BA was having difficulty with certain verses by Paul. In my last post in that thread I tried to point out that God makes a distinction between the one who serves Him and the one who does not. For some reason that thread died (I wonder why) and now both you and BA (in his/her “not a sheep will be lost”thread) seem to be back on a “once saved always saved” kick. I suggest that before promoting this doctrine of yours further, that you really check it against much of the rest of scripture. If you would do this honestly you would recognize that this doctrine clashes with much of scripture, and is therefore a false doctrine.
Why don’t people think when they read scripture? Why does reading scripture end up being an exercise in seeing one’s pet doctrine everywhere one looks? Anyone who claims that the description of being cast into outer darkness (where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth) is a description of the saved really needs to have their head examined. Such a person is simply refusing to accept the obvious. You guys are taking Jesus’ words and forcing them to conform to your preconceived notion just so your pet doctrine can be maintained. How dare you do that to the word of God! Have you no fear? You are not being honest with the biblical text. This is a shameful approach to scripture. Please consider the possibility that you are simply repressing the otherwise clear teaching which Jesus gave.
I am more than willing to discuss this topic, but only if you guys illustrate the ability to think critically. Your interpretation here indicates an intense spiritual blindness. You need to realize that God may be trying to say something other than what you want to hear. The only way you might be able to find this out is to actually consider the real possibility that you are wrong. Try to read scriptures such as this one as descriptions of the lost instead of those who are saved. If you are reading these scriptures incorrectly, then you have negated the purpose for which they were intended, and if they were intended to protect the flock, then your interpretation endangers the flock!
Sincerely,
Bandit
I am a Christian and I have lived in the outer darkness.
There are scriptures which warn about losing one's Salvation, such as Hebrews 6:4.
Teaching about the Kingdom principles of spiritual life for the Christian is being able to apply the Word of God to one's life in a real way.
It's living in God's kingdom.
If we are not saved by works but by Christ's atonement, then what you may believe is SAVED by WORKS.
You appear to believe one can lose their Salvation if they don't do everything just right.
Just as our Loving Father gave Moses the 10 Commandments for the ultimate good of his children. He also gave us the Kingdom Lesson so we could know how to walk in His Kingdom on earth to He can work through us to reach others when we follow our Shepherd.
It is possible for a person to fail to run the race of faith and they turn their back on Christ being only reason they are accepted by God and begin to believe they are accepted due to their "good works".
It is possible for a person who once said they had faith and even tasted of spiritual blessings to lose their faith and turn their back on God.
You are perhaps misunderstanding the concepts I'm attempting to discuss.
And while I see that scripture says it is possible for one to believe they are saved when they in fact are not saved (they are deceived) I do believe in the ultimate Ability of God to keep those who have truly repented and seek Him.
Jesus says of those "I never knew you."
It's like knowing all about a famous movie star, and so a person feels that since they think they know the movie star, even though they have never met him or communicated or shared with him, they think the movie star will automatically Know them.
We are to make our Salvation sure and work in out in fear and trembling, and not take it lightly with a greasy grace.
But I do believe that once saved, always, He keeps us, no matter how often we fail. Because it is Jesus who is the Author and Finisher of our Faith, not of ourselves or our dirty rag righteousness.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bandit
Advanced Member
Member # 3643
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
...Now in one parable the servant of the King is forgiven a large debt through the mercy of the King. Then that same servant puts another person in prison for their debt to himself. The servant does not display forgiveness and mercy to others after he received forgiveness and mercy from the King.
This ungrateful servant is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and regret ie gnashing of teeth, by the King.
This parable isn't about losing Salvation...
WhiteEagle, the persistence of you and others in the application of your ‘once saved always saved’ is enough to make me puke. When will you guys take a hint from scripture?
BA recently started a thread called, “did Jesus pay the price for 100% of sins?” I think I placed about 3 posts in that thread. Please read through them. BA indicated that he/she was having problems understanding how Jesus could pay the penalty for the sins of all, yet all are not saved. In particular, BA was having difficulty with certain verses by Paul. In my last post in that thread I tried to point out that God makes a distinction between the one who serves Him and the one who does not. For some reason that thread died (I wonder why) and now both you and BA (in his/her “not a sheep will be lost”thread) seem to be back on a “once saved always saved” kick. I suggest that before promoting this doctrine of yours further, that you really check it against much of the rest of scripture. If you would do this honestly you would recognize that this doctrine clashes with much of scripture, and is therefore a false doctrine.
Why don’t people think when they read scripture? Why does reading scripture end up being an exercise in seeing one’s pet doctrine everywhere one looks? Anyone who claims that the description of being cast into outer darkness (where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth) is a description of the saved really needs to have their head examined. Such a person is simply refusing to accept the obvious. You guys are taking Jesus’ words and forcing them to conform to your preconceived notion just so your pet doctrine can be maintained. How dare you do that to the word of God! Have you no fear? You are not being honest with the biblical text. This is a shameful approach to scripture. Please consider the possibility that you are simply repressing the otherwise clear teaching which Jesus gave.
I am more than willing to discuss this topic, but only if you guys illustrate the ability to think critically. Your interpretation here indicates an intense spiritual blindness. You need to realize that God may be trying to say something other than what you want to hear. The only way you might be able to find this out is to actually consider the real possibility that you are wrong. Try to read scriptures such as this one as descriptions of the lost instead of those who are saved. If you are reading these scriptures incorrectly, then you have negated the purpose for which they were intended, and if they were intended to protect the flock, then your interpretation endangers the flock!
Sincerely,
Bandit
Posts: 113 | From: Melbourne, Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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WhiteEagle
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Member # 3728
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posted
Reading through these last posts, (while an interesting intellectual theological theory from the mind of man), it is straying very far away from what I had in mind when I started this thread.
Epicurious say what you will from intellect and dissecting scriptures. Allow the Holy Spirit to teach you about God's Kingdom.
When Jesus taught in parables about the Kingdom which most are found in Matthew and then some in the other gospels, he was speaking in parables so that those who believe would be able to understand and apply those principles in their live here on earth for the Now times of our life on earth.
He talked about the unprofitable servant.
Now in the Heavens, the angels obey God's every command. They are not the unprofitable servants.
When we die and enter the Eternal dimension and through the Blood of Christ are allowed to be in heaven, we will not be subject to our flesh any longer.
Now in one parable the servant of the King is forgiven a large debt through the mercy of the King. Then that same servant puts another person in prison for their debt to himself. The servant does not display forgiveness and mercy to others after he received forgiveness and mercy from the King.
This ungrateful servant is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and regret ie gnashing of teeth, by the King.
This parable isn't about losing Salvation. In this parable the servant is like a born again believer. The servant fails to obey the Kingdom principles. He is still called a 'servant" so he is still saved. Yet he is cast into "outer darkness" where there is torment. The torment is likened to Hell in some of the parables.
The King is chastising this servant for his sin. Outer darkness is not being able to enter the Kingdom of God while walking on earth due to sin in our lives. While we as Christians yearn to be in God's kingdom and having the fruits of the spirit, when we fail to forgive others or not lives others, we fall into "outer darkness".
Our prayers don't seem to reach God, we are depressed and have regrets, and we suffer on earth due to our own lack of mercy toward others, such as God already bestowed upon us. We are in "outer darkness' because we have opened up a huge doorway spiritually for Satan to have reign in our life, so Satan has a field day with us.
I think that is what Paul means when in Corinthians he mentions about turning a person over to Satan for the purging of their soul.
Anyway these are just some of my thoughts about the Kingdom. I'd like to read what others think.
I'm just trying to relate what I have learned from my own experience, so this is not a doctrine, but a way I found to apply the scripture in my own life.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
ha ha ha, ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif) I knew when I posted those charts you were gonna say that. i heard your comments to him on his charts in my head as I posted, but I do think that Larkin's charts are good and I dont know if you have ever seen them. I promise not to post them all over the board though!
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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BORN AGAIN
unregistered
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posted
For a moment I thought Terral had returned.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
BA: when you were studying in Ezekiel 48 once you used the word hover to describe what was happening with the Oblation and what was set aside for the preists of Zodak and the Prince in the description of Ezekiel's Temple... do you remember that?
I thought at that time that you were seeing this. Have you ever seen Larkin's charts? Here is one here to check out. I thought that hover was a good word because I do not believe that the church is going to be earth bound in the millennial reign.
But more that Christ will reign over the earth and the nations and we with HIM, through Israel and the Temple of Ezekiel will be the "gateway" if you will between earth and the Jerusalem that is yet above. We have to remember that the earth is still going to be destroyed and we will not be here for its destruction. We are coming to the new earth as part of the New Jerusalem...
I dont agree with Larkin 100% in that I see that Ephraim is the fullness of nations, but I beleive that Larkin does a good job of showing the dispensations..
Lambert Dolphin speaks here on Jerusalem above and below and you might enjoy reading this:
http://www.ldolphin.org/jerusabove.html
There is a scripture that I think speaks to this as well:
John 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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yahsway
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Member # 3738
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posted
BA, I am enjoying reading these post and questions. Now your last post got me to thinking.
If Ephraim is as numerous as the sand of the sea, and stars in the heavens, and is mixed among the nations, and for all outward puposes I assume look or act nothing like Judah, then Who are these people Ephraim?
Are they believers in Yeshua the Messiah? Are they practicing Jews, whether Reform, Conservitive, or Orthadox?
One more ?. If Ephraim is "mixed" among the nations, surely they intermarried. So we cannot look for any "bloodlines" because even Jewish people cannot prove they are actual blood-line descendants of Abraham any more than a non-Jew can prove that he is a descendant.
All men can only assume the truth about their genealogy. right?
I mean, for instance, adultry made the top ten sin list. And it only takes one unfaithful grandmother in the family tree to put an extremly sharp unkown turn in anyone's genealogy.
So I believe the church body does have something to do with the covenant promises made to Abraham.
Abraham was not even a Jew. He was a Gentile before The Lord called him out to become a hebrew(one who crosses over). He gave up his Gentile ways and went Gods way. But he was not Jewish.
Yeshua said a house divided cannot stand. Ephraim and Judah are divided thats for sure. So I do not believe the Israel we see today is One Nation, not yet anyway.
Forgive my post if it seems confusing. I have not slept in 24 hours as i have been working. will come back after i have rested. Shalom to all here.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
hi epouraniois, BTW, I want to thank you for being here.
epouraniois wrote {all bold by BORN AGAIN} quote:
The Lord said He shall not return till Israel, as a nation, calls upon the name of the Lord...
epouraniois, you know a lot; perhaps you can help me with this question.
Who do you think the current Israelis in the land of Israel are?
And a related question, do you agree that the house of Israel and the house of Judah are still mixed in among the nations?
And if you say that Israel is currently among the nations, then when you say: quote:
The Lord said He shall not return till Israel, as a nation, calls upon the name of the Lord...
If Israel is currently among the nations, what do you mean when you say Israel as a nation?
Are you referring to Israel among the nations or the Israelis currently in Israel?
epouraniois further wrote: quote:
...at which point they will look on Him whom they had pierced and mourn as for an only begotten son.
Here you seem to imply an Israel which is in the land of Israel because you quote from Zechariah:
Zechariah 12:9-10 {KJV}
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
The return of Lord Jeshuah to the mount of Olives:
Zechariah 14:3-5 (KJV)
3 Then shall the LORD go forth and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
The mount of Olives hasn't moved yet, so the LORD or the Lord hasn't come yet. But here we are talking about a nation where the mount of Olives is.
What about the house of Israel and the house of Judah that is currently in the nations, in far greater number than are currenly in the land of Israel. For the LORD said:
Genesis 22:17
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven and as the sand on the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Genesis 32:12
And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.
The house of Israel of whom Ephraim is the head inherited the promise from Jacob of "multiplied as the stars of heaven and as the sand of the sea."
But the house of Israel is still mixed among the nations, is it not? But they must have grown "numerous" because Israel-Ephraim has that unconditional promise.
Israel-Judah received the "kings shall come out of you, including the Messiah, King of Israel".
But Israel-Ephraim inherited the "multiplicy of seed" promise from Jacob on Jacob's deathbed in Misr Egypt.
So, epouraniois, when you say "Israel, as a nation must call upon the LORD first", which Israel do you have in mind?
God bless, keep up the good fishing. fish eat small bites. God bless. BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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posted
Christ has not yet returned. All will be changed, in a moment in the twinkling of an eye. That is non dispensational, just as in Adam we all die...non dispensational=all are in need of a Saviour.
The Lord said He shall not return till Israel, as a nation, calls upon the name of the Lord, at which point they will look on Him whom they had pierced and mourn as for an only begotten son.
There are no words in the Greek that point to multiple returns of the Lord. Christ has one parousia, at which point His body will be united, even reunited with the head in glory as the saints in the light. The Lord's inheritance is the same as the one bodies inheritance.
That word 'air' is the breath of life body, not the kind of air in the atmosphere. Check your Strong's. Everyone will be changed, but not every one will be accompaning Christ, for the angels are the reapers...'and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts', also Rev.2.9, 3.9-10.
The church body has nothing to do with the covenant to Abraham Isaac and Jacob, for it's sphere of blessing is far above all in the heavenly places in the Shekina Glory, 'the holiest of all' is what the saints in the light translates out to.
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
epouraniois, so did the following part ever happen or did it never happen because Israel was set aside? quote:
Throughout the period covered by the Acts of the Apostles believers anticipated the return of the Lord Jesus Christ from heaven. Some would be changed, "put on immortality", and be "caught up" to meet the returning Lord in the air. They would accompany Him back to the Mount of Olives. Paul entertained his hope during the Acts period (see 1 Thess. 4:4-17 and 1Cor. 15:51-55).
Or will this happen after the set-aside is finished?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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posted
I felt this might be a good repost here:
Said of Israel:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Said of Israel:
Amo 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
Said of Israel:
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world
SAID OF CHRIST
Joh 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
SAID OF CHRIST
1Pe 1:19-20
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world,
SAID OF THE CHURCH HIS BODY
Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
SAID OF CHRIST AND OF HIS BODY
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
We have just read of a church which is so closely associated with the Lord Christ Jesus that the very things said of Christ, are said of the church which is called 'His body the fulness of Him that filleth all in all'. What a title!!!
Chosen us in him before the foundation of the world
Without spot/without blame.
This is the only body of believers written as chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world -AND- to an heavenly calling -AND- with every blessing that is spiritual that God has to give -AND- SEATED WITH HIM IN HEAVENLY PLACES -AND- ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED -AND- THE INHERITANCE OF THE SAINTS IN LIGHT.
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epouraniois
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posted
Please forgive me, I will try to be clear.
Those who are promised an inheritance by adoption, in either the earthly kingdom, or as revealed, those of the heavenly city, are Hebrew in their charactor, and earthly in their position.
It is to that end they were looking for 1 Thessalonians 4:17 in their lifetime, as did write all the Acts period writers.
But this coming of the king to the earth is NEVER mentioned with regards to the church, His body. Rather, His body connects with it's Head to form a unity, and does not look forward to His coming (parousia), rather has for an inheritance by adoption and choosing, appearing (epiphaneia) with (to complete His glory) Christ when He appears in the heavenly places.
Many Christians who ignore the dispensational dividing line of Acts 28:28 confuse the two hopes and make them one. We are clearly told that in this dispensation there is but ONE HOPE (Eph.4:4). Those who rightly divide the Word of Truth recognize the difference between the "appearing" of the Lord in Glory and the "coming" of the Lord to Mt. Zion.
The instructions (doctrine) revelated to the apostle for the one bodies hope and calling are thus:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints
Note that this is in the very first chapter of the first letter making the church body known, AND
speaks to His inheritance in the saints. What about the church then?
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
So Christ has an inheritance, and it is the same inheritance which the church looks forward to. The head and the body cannot be seperated:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
It must be stated that the "coming" is intimately related to the Kingdom. This fact was in view all through the Acts. The Kingdom hope penetrated from Acts 2 clear through Acts 28. Along with the Kingdom hope goes the return of the Lord, which is His second "coming". All of the epistles written during the Acts period relate to His "coming".
However, after Acts 28:28, we find that the Apostle writes seven other epistles and there is a very obvious omission of the reference to the "coming of the Lord".
The last seven epistles make known present truth. They are Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Philemon, 1Timothy, Titus, and 2 Timothy. In these letters the Apostle makes known the present calling of the Church of the One Body. It is here also we learn what is the One Hope (Eph.4:4) of our calling.
It is not mentioned as being connected with any movement on the part of the Lord at all. But rather it is connected with His manifestation in Glory. The Scripture speaks of it as His "appearing".
Before Acts 28:28 the hope anticipated by believers was that of the "coming (i.e. back to earth) of the Lord." After Acts 28:28 the hope that the believers should anticipate is that of the Lord's "appearing" in the Glory "far above all heavens" (Eph. 4:10). However, failure of Christians to rightly divide the Word of Truth has resulted in confusion as to what the real hope of the believer is in this dispensation of the grace of God. They seem to cling to the hope that was set aside that is not even available today.
Throughout the period covered by the Acts of the Apostles believers anticipated the return of the Lord Jesus Christ from heaven. Some would be changed, "put on immortality", and be "caught up" to meet the returning Lord in the air. They would accompany Him back to the Mount of Olives. Paul entertained his hope during the Acts period (see 1 Thess. 4:4-17 and 1Cor. 15:51-55).
The Lord also promised the Twelve that they would to sit upon 12 thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel when He comes from heaven to the earth to set up His Kingdom (Mat 19:28).
However, when Israel was set aside God ushered in a new dispensation (Acts 28:28) and with it the Apostle Paul learned that the new out-calling's destiny was that of being received up into Glory. Connected with that new calling is "the appearing'. Search the Scriptures written after Acts 28:28 and you will find no mention of the return of the Lord. When describing the hope of the Church which is His body, Paul was not givcen the words "come" or "coming". Rather he is given, under the inspiration of God, to use the words "appear" and "appearing."
One is earthly in position, while the other is far above all heavens. One requires movement (from heaven to the earth), while the other is a manifestation. These will both occur in an atomos(1Co 15:52).
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BORN AGAIN
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dear epouraniois, if you will confirm for me one more time in plain, staccato English, "are you saying that the church will be in heaven for 1,000 years while the Prince Jeshuah will be on earth in the holy oblation of land for 1,000 years, like the church flies up just when the Prince Jeshuah flies down"?
So how does that jive with this?
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Will we just meet, say hello, exchange a holy kiss, and say "see ya in a 1,000 years, Bro?" ![[BooHoo]](graemlins/boohoo.gif)
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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For a true understanding of the new Testament, it is essential that the "Word of Truth" should be "rightly divided" (2Tim. 2:15) as to the various usages of the word "kingdom" in all the different combinations and contexts in which we find it.
Each has its own peculiar and particular sense, which must not be confused with another.
As to the word basileia, it denotes sovereignty, which requires the actual presence of a sovereign, or king. There can be no kingdom apart from a king. We all know of countries which were once "kingdoms" but are now "republics", for the simple but sufficient reason that they have no "king", but are governed by the "public", which is sovereign.
The countries remain the same, have the same peoples, the same cities, the same mountains and rivers, but they are no longer kingdoms.
The common practice of taking the Kingdom as meaning the Church, has been the source of incalculable misunderstanding; and not "trying the things that differ" (Phil. 1:10) has led to great confusion in the interpretation of the whole of the New Testament.
1
"The Kingdom of Heaven". The word "heaven" is generally in this connection in the plural, "of (or from) the heavens". For the difference between the use of the singular and plural of this word, see the notes on Matt. 6:9, 10. This expression is used only in the Gospel of Matthew, as being specially in harmony with the purpose of that Gospel which presents Christ as King to Israel.
It is a dispensational term; and is used sometimes of the Messiah's Kingdom on earth, and sometimes of the heavenly sovereignty over the earth. It is not from or out of (Gr. ek) "this world" (Gr. kosmos). This sovereignty comes from heaven, because the King is to come from thence (John 18:36). It was to this end He was born, and this was the first subject of His ministry. That Kingdom (Matt. 4:17, &c.) was rejected, as was also the further proclamation of it in Acts 3:19-26 (according to the prophetic parable of Matt. 22:2-7). Thenceforth the earthly realization of this Kingdom was postponed, and is now in abeyance until the King shall be sent from heaven (Acts 3:20). The "secrets" of this Kingdom (Matt. 13:11) pertained to the postponement of its earthly realization, on account of its being rejected.
2
"The Kingdom of God" is the sovereignty of God, which is moral and universal. It existed from the beginning, and will know no end. It is over all, and embraces all.
3
"The Kingdom of the Father". (Matt. 13:43) is not universal, but has regard to relationship, and "a heavenly calling" (Heb. 3:1), and to the heavenly sphere of the Kingdom, in its relation to the earthly. It is sovereignty exercised toward obedient sons, when the Son of man shall have gathered out of His Kingdom "all things that offend" (Matt. 13:41). Dan. 7:25-27. Matt. 25:31-46. Luke 20:34-36. The way of entrance into this may be seen in John 3:3. It is going on now concurrently with No. 5.
4
"The Kingdom of the Son of man". (Matt. 16:28). This aspect of "the Kingdom of heaven" has regard to Israel on earth (cp. Dan. 7:13, 14, 18, 21, 22), as distinct from the "sons" who, as partakers of "a heavenly calling" (Heb. 3:1), will possess the heavenly sphere as sons of the resurrection (Luke 20:34-36. Cp. 1Cor. 15:23. Rev. 20:4-6). These two spheres are distinct, though they are one. No. 3 concerns "the saints of the most high [places]" (Dan. 7:18, 24). No. 4 concerns "the people of the saints of the most high". These have their portion in "the Kingdom under the whole heaven", which has regard to earthly sovereignty, in which "all dominions shall serve and obey Him" (Dan. 7:27).
These two would have had their realization even then, had Israel repented at the summons of the Lord, and of "them that heard Him" in Acts 3:19-26. In that case the later revelation of the "Mystery" (or the great secret) which with its exanastasis and its "heavenward Call" (Phil. 3:11, 14), was hidden in God, would have remained in the keeping of the Father's Divine sovereignty.
5
"The Kingdom of His dear Son". Gr. the Kingdom of the Son of His love, or of His beloved Son (Col. 1:13), has regard to quite another sphere, above all heavens, and refers to the sovereignty of God's beloved Son as made the "Head over all things to His ekklesia, which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all" (Eph. 1:10, 20-23). See also Eph. 5:5.
This sovereignty had been "kept secret" (Rom. 16:25), "hid in God (Eph. 3:9), "hid from ages and from generations" (Col. 1:25); but after the Kingdom (No. 4) proclaimed by the Lord and by "them that heard Him" (Heb. 2:4) had been postponed, it was revealed and "made known" (Eph. 3) for the "obedience of faith" (Rom. 16:26). The subjects of this Divine sovereignty, on their believing this subsequent revelation, are "sealed" (or designated) for their inheritance, which is to be enjoyed with Christ (Eph. 1:13).
This relates to the position of those who come under that sovereignty.
6
"The Everlasting Kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ". (2Pet. 1:11). This has regard to No. 5, but was then future (not having been revealed when Peter wrote); but it relates to the outward display of His sovereignty in millennial glory; while No. 5 relates to the inward position and experimental enjoyment of it in present grace.
7
"The Kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ" (or Messiah). (Rev. 11:15). This has regard to the end of the present time of abeyance of Nos. 3 and 4, and the millennial manifestation of both by Divine power, and in glory. See also Rev. 12:10.
At the end of the thousand years, No. 1, and perhaps others of them will cease, and be absorbed in the Kingdom of God (No. 2).
You have been reading excerpts from the appendixes of the Companion Bible.
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epouraniois
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THE "KINGDOM" AND THE "CHURCH".
Each use of the term "kingdom" has its own special and particular meaning and must not be confused with others that differ, there must be still greater confusion if any one of them is identified with "the Church", as is very commonly done: though which of the Kingdoms and which of the Churches is never definitely pointed out in most discussion and teachings, thereby giving a false impression that there are little, if any, differences.
The following reasons may be given which will show that "the Kingdom" and "the Church" cannot thus be identified:
1. The subjects of the former are spoken of as "inheriting", or as being "heirs of the Kingdom"; but we cannot speak of inheriting or being heirs of "the Church".
2. We read of the possibility of "receiving the Kingdom", but in no sense can any Church be spoken of as being received.
3. We read of "the elders of the Churches", messengers or servants of the Churches, but never of the elders, &c. of the Kingdom.
4. The word basileia, translated "kingdom", occurs 162 times, and in the plural only in Matt. 4:8. Luke 4:5. Heb. 11:33. Rev. 11:15. On the other hand, the word ekklesia occurs 115 times, and of these 36 are in the plural and 79 in the singular, all rendered "church" except in Acts 19:32, 39, 41, "assembly" (of an unruly mob, but it is the same word - ekklesia.
5. We read of "the children (or sons) of the Kingdom", but the Bible knows nothing of the sons of "the Church".
6. The characteristics of each are distinct.
7. The names and appellatives of "the Church" are never used of the Kingdom (Eph. 1:23; 2:21; 4:4, 16; 5:30. Col. 1:24. 1Tim. 3:15).
8. The privilege of "that Church" which consists of the partakers of "a heavenly calling", Heb. 3:1; Rev. 20:4-6, will be to reign with Christ over the earthly Kingdom, whereas that Kingdom will be "under the whole heaven" (Dan. 7:27).
9. "The Church" of the Prison Epistles (Eph., Phil., Col.) is here and now, in the world, and is waiting for its exanastasis, and its "heavenward call" (Phil. 3:11, 14); whereas the Kingdom is not here, because the King is not here (Heb. 2:8).
10. The Kingdom is the one great subject of prophecy; whereas the Church (of the Prison Epistles) is not the subject of prophecy, but, on the contrary, was kept secret, and hidden in God, until the time came for the secret to be revealed.
It must be understood that this "secret" (Gr. musterion) did not and could not refer to Jews and Gentiles in future blessing, because this was never a secret, but was part of the original promise made to Abraham in Gen. 12:3, and was repeatedly spoken of throughout the Psalms and the Prophets. See Deut. 32:43. Ps. 18:49; 117:1. Isa. 11:1, 10, &c. Cp. Rom. 15:8-12, and the quotations there given.
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epouraniois
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Born Again,
The answer to the first question is found in Col.3.4, and 1Cor.15.52. His body, 'the church' will be far above all, at the right hand of God, intimately connected with Him in the Holy Spirit, while, for an age time, His image will return that Israel may fulfill her covenant promises. God is Spirit. Let us not limit the limitless God, nor take it that the church is in any way missing out on anything, for,to the church He instructs --
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
AGAIN:
Predestination has been taken to it's extreme English interpretation, which is not what the Greek provides, as it is formed by two words, and has the meaning of setting the bounds before hand. We get our word 'horizon' from it, like where the earth meets the sky, and likewise, the church had it's bounds set before age times, and can not go beyond it. It never means some are predestined to fail while others succeed or whatever.
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Now, the word "kingdom", like the Greek basileia, has regard to sovereignty rather than territory, and to the sphere of its exercise rather than to its extent.
Using the word "kingdom" in this sense, and in that which is conveyed in its English termination "dom", which is short for dominion, we note that the former expression, "the Kingdom of heaven", occurs only in Matthew, where we find it thirty-two times.
But in the parallel passages in the other Gospels we find, instead, the expression "the Kingdom of God" (e.g. cp. Matt. 11:11 with Luke 7:28).
The explanation of this seeming difference is that the Lord spoke in Aramaic; certainly not in the Greek of the Gospel documents.
Now "heaven" is frequently used by the Figure Metonymy (of the Subject), for God Himself, Whose dwelling is there. See Ps. 73:9. Dan. 4:26, 29. 2Chron. 32:20. Matt. 21:25. Luke 15:21 ("I have sinned against heaven" is thus contrasted with the words "and in thy sight"). John 3:27.
It is suggested that in all the passages where the respective expressions occur, identical words were spoken by the Lord, "the Kingdom of heaven"; but when it came to putting them into Greek, Matthew was Divinely guided to retain the Figure of Speech literally ("heaven"), so as to be in keeping with the special character, design, and scope of his Gospel; while, in the other Gospels, the figure was translated as being what it also meant, "the Kingdom of God".
Thus, while the same in a general sense, the two expressions are to be distinguished in their meaning and in their interpretation, as follows :--
I. The Kingdom (or Sovereignty) of HEAVEN
1. Has Messiah for its King;
2. It is from heaven; and under the heavens upon the earth;
3. It is limited in its scope;
4. It is political in its sphere;
5. It is Jewish and exclusive in its character;
6. It is national in its aspect;
7. It is the special subject of Old Testament prophecy;
8. And it is dispensational in its duration.
II. The Kingdom (or Sovereignty) of GOD
1. Has God for its Ruler;
2. It is in heaven, over the earth;
3. It is unlimited in its scope;
4. It is moral and spiritual in its sphere;
5. It is ALL inclusive in its character (embracing the natural and spiritual seeds of
Abraham, "the heavenly calling", AND the "Church" of the Mystery). Hence,
6. It is universal in its aspect;
7. It is (in its wider aspect) the subject of New Testament revelation;
8. And will be eternal in its duration.
The Kingdom of God occurs only five times (grace) in Matt. (6:33; 12:28; 19:24; 21:31, 43).
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BORN AGAIN
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dear brother epouraniois, I have a question which I have made before, either to Terral, but I think I also posed this question to you epouraniois.
You say the mystery church was revealed after Israel was set aside and goes to heaven at a certain point.
When will the mystery church body go to heaven, BTW, on the last day?
But Ezekiel 48 says that the Prince, whom I take to mean the Lord God Jeshuah of Nazareth, the Son of God of the LORD YHWY, this Prince Ezekiel 48 says will be in the land of Israel.
How do these time periods correlate or overlap? Is the church in heaven while Jeshuah is in heaven with the church?
Or will the church be in heaven while the Prince Jeshuah is in the holy oblation of land next to Jerusalem in Ezekiel 48?
Or will the church be with the Prince Jeshuah in the holy oblation of land next to Jerusalem?
Most particularly, are you at all saying that the church will be in heaven while the Prince is on earth for 1,000 years"?
If you are, I don't get that one. Please explain. God bless. BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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I think the time for the kingdom prayer that Jesus Christ the Lord and Saviour gave to the disciples was given, one, in private, two, to those who are to inherit the earthly kingdom, and three, that the time for them to pray for their kingdom is when Christ gives them a fleshy heart where their stone heart now is, as per the covenant relationship which only Israel has.
On the other hand, the mystery body, called 'the church' and revealed after Israel was set aside is given a different prayer than the Jews were, seeing as how the inheritance of the one body is not on the earth, but far above all where Christ sits. The prayer, one of them, for the church which is called His body:
Eph 3:14 For this cause
which returns from the parenthisis () of v.1,which cause was brought forward from ch. 2:
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.
So it is for this cause the prayer is finally set forth:
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
See, we have to pray for this understanding, because none of what the inheritance of the church has set before them is written before this letter.
Phi 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
Phi 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ;
Phi 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
1. what is produced is faith. There is no such thing as 30% faith or 70% faith. You either have faith or you dont. Each of us has a measure of faith and it is 100% faith... some of us have a cup of 100% faith and some a 1/4 cup of 100% faith.
I agree that there has to be a 100% output no matter where we are in our faith walk. Each of has a different capacity according how long we have come along in our spiritual journey.
I have heard it described that when we get to heaven we are all different sizes of vessels, according to the fruits of the spirit we have developed down here. Some vessles may be small, but still they are overflowing with joy. All different sizes but each filled to their utter capacity,
These vessels can be likened to our spiritual walk down here in our kingdom on earth.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, including Peter, Paul and Mary. God bless, BORN AGAIN
This Peter,Paul and Mary?
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called Honah Lee,
Little Jackie Paper loved that rascal Puff,
and brought him strings and sealing wax and other fancy stuff. Oh
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea----
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helpforhomeschoolers
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What you are saying brother BA did occur to me as I wrote, but I still could not embrace it.
Here is why:
1. what is produced is faith. There is no such thing as 30% faith or 70% faith. You either have faith or you dont. Each of us has a measure of faith and it is 100% faith... some of us have a cup of 100% faith and some a 1/4 cup of 100% faith.
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
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BORN AGAIN
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sister helpforhomeschoolers, I'm glad to see you post. You often write with wisdom. You wrote {bolding by BA} quote:
I do also think what fills the 70x is not the question either.. the 70x does not exist in the one that is yielding 30x.
Oh please. Is there now a vacuum of 70x which is empty or something? If there is a known 30x-fold Spirit life in me, then what occupies the rest of me? 70x-fold flesh still. But apparently 30x-fold Spirit is considered good ground by the LORD. (And I thank Him for it.)
helpforhomeschoolers continues: quote:
What is sown? The word. What does the word yield? When you sow the word in a person, what is produced?
Faith - faith is the crop that the word yields.
Faith cometh by hearing; hearing by the word. If you sow the word of God you get faith. Then by faith you get belief unto salvation and the indwelling and sealing Spirit of God begins to work in you to produce fruit of the spirit.
Good, I really liked that part.
you continue again: quote:
The fruit that the spirit produces is proportional to the degree that we decrease that HE may increase... the degree that we die and HE lives in us... the degree that we sanctify HIM in our hearts and crucify the deads of the flesh and walk in the spirit.
Now here, friend, you are just getting around the simple way of saying 30x-fold Spirit equals 70x-fold flesh in a person, when you say, "The fruit that the spirit produces is proportional to the degree that we decrease {snip} ...hello, proportional? 30x-70x? 60x-40x? 100x-0x?
you may say it with fancy words like quote:
that HE may increase... the degree that we die and HE lives in us... the degree that we sanctify HIM in our hearts and crucify the deads of the flesh and walk in the spirit,
but you have something on both sides of the equation too, as well you must have.
Can't have one without the other, except for 100x-0x. But probably only Jesus thus far was a true 100x: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, including Peter, Paul and Mary.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Hey WhiteEagle it has been a long time since you and I were in agreement on something. It is kinda nice! ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
I do also think what fills the 70x is not the question either.. the 70x does not exisit in the one that is yeilding 30x.
What is sown? The word. What does the word yeild? When you sow the word in a person, what is produced?
Faith - faith is the crop that the word yeilds.
Faith cometh by hearing; hearing by the word. If you sow the word of God you get faith. Then by faith you get belief unto salvation and the indwelling and sealing Spirit of God begins to work in you to produce fruit of the spirit.
The fruit that the spirit produces is proportional to the degree that we decrease that HE may increase... the degree that we die and HE lives in us... the degree that we sanctify HIM in our hearts and crucify the deads of the flesh and walk in the spirit.
This is because the fruit of the Spirit is not our fruit it is HIS... if I have the peace that passeth understanding it is because the God of all Peace.. Christ who is our peace is in me and so must then be PEACE. You can act meek, you can act joyful etc.. but this is not fruit. Spiritual fruit is the manifestation of Christ in us and Christ is all these things.. Peace Joy love faith patience gentleness and goodness.
As white eagle has said to whom much is given much is required. When the word is sown.. the faith that it yeilds is not of our making. It is God that gives the increase. If I am one of a 70x crop and you are of a 30% crop this is God's ordination according to how He will use us in this life. There are vessels of Gold and some of wood in the same temple. I may never have the faith of Paul but then again I may never be required to speak to Caesar.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
The Kingdom of heaven or God is here already. We as Christians have a choice every day and every minute of the day, if we want to walk in it.
Amen!! Plus, through this same grace, we are made heirs to the eternal throne of heaven.
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life
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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
Now when someone is showing forth 30x-fold, there is a 70x-fold missing. what fills that 70x-fold, sister WhiteEagle or anyone?
I dont think that it is a matter of what "fills" the 70x-fold BA.
Out here where I live there is a lot of Corn and also winter wheat grown. I have a friend who plants 160 acres of winter wheat and his neigbor also plants 160 acres of winter wheat. They both buy their seed from the same place, each of their sections of land abutt each other, but the yeild from that planting is very different. My friend gets many many more bushels of wheat than his neighbor. Why? They use different tilling methods, they rotate different crops in the remaineder of the year, they use different mixtures of nutrients in the soil. One's land has a slighly different slope and thus is affected by the sun in a different manner, they do not each water exactly the same volume of water....
We are like this... we each get the same earnest of the Spirit; we each are sealed with the same spirit; but we have each been tilled differently, for some more seed (word) gets in, some get more water and nutirients, some have ground that is more sloped and thus warmed differently by the soil, so the 100x, 60x 30 fold, speaks to the yeild. I doubt that I will ever produce the yeild that someone like Paul produced for example in spiritual fruit.
agree ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
And below, Paul is showing what the things of the Spirit look like: quote:
BUT THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IS love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control. AGAINST such things there is no LAW.
If we have any of these qualities, then we are showing some FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.
Matthew 13:8
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some a 100x-fold, some 60x-fold, some 30x-fold.
Now when someone is showing forth 30x-fold, there is a 70x-fold missing. what fills that 70x-fold, sister WhiteEagle or anyone?
Thank you. God is in control. His chidren will not be forsaken.
Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom. BORN AGAIN "If I'm more than a sinner saved by grace, please let me know". ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
What fills the 70x fold is the wrong question.
The differences in the increases are based on what the individual is given from God. We all have different talents, and as the other parable about the talents states that some had 10, 5 and 2 and 1.
God says to whom much is given, much is required.
The correct question is... How fertile is my soil?
God gives the increase based upon what we sow according to our talents.
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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
[
I totally agree with what you are saying WhiteEagle, but we are heirs to The Kingdom in heaven, the ultimate goal, of which I believe Jesus spoke. Notice that the scripture you quoted says that we "WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD."
We are Jesus' ambassadors, so we are heirs to all of his grace and mercy here on earth, so that we can live 'AS in THE kingdom' here.
2 Cor. 5:20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
~Again I agree with what you are saying WhiteEagle, but in the scriptures with the word 'kingdom', Jesus is also referring to heaven.
Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The Kingdom of heaven or God is here already. We as Christians have a choice every day and every minute of the day, if we want to walk in it.
If we are walking in the works of the flesh as outlined by Galations, such as strife or envy, we will not "inherit" or be able to walk in God's kingdom or enter in. We are still saved, but we have not died to ourselves, and it is only by repenting of these works of the flesh can we enter into the Kingdom of God while we are here on earth.
Jesus taught us to pray the Lord's prayer:
...Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven..."
The Lord's prayer also asks "give us this day our daily bread..." for give us our trespasses..." etc.
The Lord's prayer is for our todays on earth. Not for the furture afterlife. Though living in the kingdom on earth is our seal of the holy Spirit of being able to live in Heaven after our physical death.
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BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers writes quote:
dont think that it is a matter of what "fills" the 70x-fold BA.
If a person is running on 100x-fold fruit, then they are fully Spirit-led and all the fruits of the Spirit are present and this person is 0x-fold flesh-led.
When a person is running on 60x-fold fruit of the Spirit-led, something has to fill in that 40x-fold and that has to be 40x-fold of flesh-led since this person is only 60x-fold Spirit fruit-led, and that something can only be 40x-fold flesh-led still.
Likewise when a person is running on 30x-fold fruit of the Spirit-led, something has to fill in that 70x-fold and that has to be 70x-fold of flesh-led since this person is only 30x-fold Spirit fruit-led.
What is interesting to me is that a 30x-fold fruit of the Spirit-led person with 70x-fold fruit of the flesh-led is still considered to be "on good ground". ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
Now when someone is showing forth 30x-fold, there is a 70x-fold missing. what fills that 70x-fold, sister WhiteEagle or anyone?
I dont think that it is a matter of what "fills" the 70x-fold BA.
Out here where I live there is a lot of Corn and also winter wheat grown. I have a friend who plants 160 acres of winter wheat and his neigbor also plants 160 acres of winter wheat. They both buy their seed from the same place, each of their sections of land abutt each other, but the yeild from that planting is very different. My friend gets many many more bushels of wheat than his neighbor. Why? They use different tilling methods, they rotate different crops in the remaineder of the year, they use different mixtures of nutrients in the soil. One's land has a slighly different slope and thus is affected by the sun in a different manner, they do not each water exactly the same volume of water....
We are like this... we each get the same earnest of the Spirit; we each are sealed with the same spirit; but we have each been tilled differently, for some more seed (word) gets in, some get more water and nutirients, some have ground that is more sloped and thus warmed differently by the soil, so the 100x, 60x 30 fold, speaks to the yeild. I doubt that I will ever produce the yeild that someone like Paul produced for example in spiritual fruit.
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epouraniois
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I don't think Galatians is speaking about what things look like, rather, what, from the hearth, are brought forth, for ex, a pagan or athiest may very well be more adept at preforming duties to the good of the community, but it is vain glory, whereas the Christian may very well be overtly selfish, abiding their time for Bible study over that of say, a scout leader.
We can't tell be looking people, that is why God searches the reigns of the heart.
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BORN AGAIN
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sister HisGrace wrote: quote:
We are Jesus' ambassadors, so we are heirs to all of his grace and mercy here on earth, so that we can live 'AS in THE kingdom' here.
2 Cor. 5:20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
Ambassadors, yes; imploring men to believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, yes.
So "we can live AS in THE kingdom" here?
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
When He shall appear, we shall be like Him.
Ephesians 1:14
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
What is the kingdom of God on earth? We are already in it, just as Old National Israel was the kingdom of God.
Now the church is the kingdom of God, but at this time all its members are spread out throughout the earth as ambassadors.
But then the church will assemble in one place, in the land of Israel.
But probably not for long, because those of us "who will be like Him" will be set over 2 cities and over 5 cities and over 10 cities and we will rule with Him over the kingdom of God:
Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand {chilioi} years.
In 70 A.D., the Lord Jeshuah-Jesus Himself has taken over the administration of the kingdom of God, He is now its cornerstone.
But that made me think of epouraniois, that this kingdom of God is different than the kingdom of God which Old National Israel had until 70 A.D.
This kingdom of God over which Jesus is now Lord/Administrator is "neither Jew nor Greek" but a "third kind of man", a "new man", thus making of the "two" now "one", and having broken down the partition between the two thereby.
It is neither "Jewish" nor "Gentile" anymore, but "the mystery of God". Oh my God, did he say "mystery"?
May God of Israel bless, BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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this was good, sister WhiteEagle: quote:
I've found that to be obedient to Jesus on this point by praying for the person who is mistreating me, that God has honored my obedience by giving me a soft heart toward that person, and not the former anger and bitterness I once walked in toward them. Praise God.
My non-Christian housemate is a Darwinist but he is also considerably angrier at the world than I am.
And my non-Christian golf partner is also angrier at the world than I am.
I want to thank the Holy Spirit and the availability of the Word for making me "a little sweeter":
Exodus 15
23 And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah.
24 And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink?
25 And he criednto the LORD; and the LORD showed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them.
The Lord Jeshuah is that tree; whosoever throws that tree into his bitter well, becomes "sweeter" than before.
Proverbs 15:1
A soft answer turns away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
Proverbs 29:8
Scornful men bring a city into a snare: but wise men turn away wrath.
May the God of Israel bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
So what is this mysterious "kingdom of God"? I believe it's a spiritual walk we as Christians can walk in the Kingdom here on earth.
In God's Kingdom there is only love and mercy toward the ones who are treating me badly.
I guess that's what I'm trying to get across about walking in God's Kingdom on earth.
John the Baptist preached that the kingdom of God was at hand.
Jesus preached many parables and concepts of this kingdom, and Paul applied these concepts.
The Kingdom of God is here for those of us who are willing to enter in.
I totally agree with what you are saying WhiteEagle, but we are heirs to The Kingdom in heaven, the ultimate goal, of which I believe Jesus spoke. Notice that the scripture you quoted says that we "WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD."
We are Jesus' ambassadors, so we are heirs to all of his grace and mercy here on earth, so that we can live 'AS in THE kingdom' here.
2 Cor. 5:20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
~Again I agree with what you are saying WhiteEagle, but in the scriptures with the word 'kingdom', Jesus is also referring to heaven.
Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
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WhiteEagle
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BornAgain, Yahway, and Grace;
I too used to interpret those verses to be about Salvation. ie if one was practicing any of those works of the flesh they would not be able to enter heaven or the eternal afterlife with God in His Kingdom.
But I have recently understood that these verses are not taking about Salvation at all, as Born Again is correct, we are saved by Grace and not works and through Christ's atonement on the Cross.
So what is this mysterious "kingdom of God"? I believe it's a spiritual walk we as Christians can walk in the Kingdom here on earth.
For me one of the hardest things to obey from Christ was to love my enemies and do good to those who despitefully use me.
In the flesh there is bitterness, anger, and hate when I was treated badly or abused by someone.
In God's Kingdom there is only love and mercy toward the ones who are treating me badly.
I've found that to be obedient to Jesus on this point by praying for the person who is mistreating me, that God has honored my obedience by giving me a soft heart toward that person, and not the former anger and bitterness I once walked in toward them. Praise God.
I guess that's what I'm trying to get across about walking in God's Kingdom on earth.
John the Baptist preached that the kingdom of God was at hand.
Jesus preached many parables and concepts of this kingdom, and Paul applied these concepts.
The Kingdom of God is here for those of us who are willing to enter in.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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BORN AGAIN
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dear sister WhiteEagle, you write quote:
Galatians 5:19-25 "Now the works of the flesh are obvious; sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife,jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissentions, factions,envy, drunkeness, carousing, and anything similar about which I tell you in advance-as I told you before-that those that practice such things WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. BUT THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IS love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control. AGAINST such things there is no LAW. Now those who belong to CHRIST JESUS have crucified the flesh with it's passions and desires. IF WE LIVE BY THE SPIRIT WE MUST ALSO FOLLOW THE SPIRIT.
I looked at that and looked at that, and then I saw this division:
quote:
Galatians 5:19-25 "Now the works of the flesh are obvious; sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife,jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissentions, factions,envy, drunkeness, carousing, and anything similar about which I tell you in advance-as I told you before-that those that practice such things WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Okay, I thought, above Paul is showing what the things of the flesh look like.
And below, Paul is showing what the things of the Spirit look like: quote:
BUT THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IS love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control. AGAINST such things there is no LAW.
If we have any of these qualities, then we are showing some FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.
Matthew 13:8
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some a 100x-fold, some 60x-fold, some 30x-fold.
Now when someone is showing forth 30x-fold, there is a 70x-fold missing. what fills that 70x-fold, sister WhiteEagle or anyone?
Thank you. God is in control. His chidren will not be forsaken.
Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom. BORN AGAIN "If I'm more than a sinner saved by grace, please let me know".
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yahsway
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WhiteEagle, i believe you are right. Obedience is the key word.Shalom
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Jesus mentions the Kingdom many times and Paul also mentions the Kingdom as living in the attributes of the Holy Spirit.
It appears when we are following the Holy Spirit and filled with the Love of God we will exude the fruits of the spirit through obedience. That is living in God's Kingdom.
Any other thoughts?
I have heard it said by preachers that Jesus only preached about the kingdom, the point being that everything we go through down here is working towards rewards in the kingdom. It's all about eternity.
Ephesians 6:5-9 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. 6Work hard, but not just to please your masters when they are watching. As slaves of Christ, do the will of God with all your heart.
Work with enthusiasm, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people. Remember that the Lord will reward each one of us for the good we do, whether we are slaves or free.
And in the same way, you masters must treat your slaves right. Don't threaten them; remember, you both have the same Master in heaven, and he has no favorites.
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WhiteEagle
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Galations 5:19-25 "Now the works of the flesh are obvious; sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife,jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissentions, factions,envy, drunkeness, carousing, and anything similar about which I tell you in advance-as I told you before-that those that practice such things WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. BUT THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IS love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control. AGAINST such things there is no LAW. Now those who belong to CHRIST JESUS have crucified the flesh with it's passions and desires. IF WE LIVE BY THE SPIRIT WE MUST ALSO FOLLOW THE SPIRIT.
Jesus mentions the Kingdom many times and Paul also mentions the Kingdom as living in the attributes of the Holy Spirit.
It appears when we are following the Holy Spirit and filled with the Love of God we will exude the fruits of the spirit through obedience. That is living in God's Kingdom.
Any other thoughts?
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