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Topic: did Jesus pay the price for 100% of sins?
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Bandit:
I am sure you are familiar with Romans 3:10 where it says, “There is none righteous, no not one.” And I would bet you are probably familiar with how the Calvinists use this verse to prove their “total depravity” doctrine. So if none are righteous, then all must be unrighteous - right? But then didn’t Paul say (which brings up your question) in 1 Corinthians 6:9 that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? If so, then that means that no one inherits the kingdom of God. So the kingdom ends up being a big, empty place - right? But read the Sheep and Goats Judgement described in Matthew 25. Do you see any description of the “righteous?” But I thought there weren’t any righteous! How can this be? This is all easily explain, but only if one views things from a proper biblical perspective. For example, take Romans 3:10. (“There is none righteous, no not one.”) In my opinion, Paul clearly explains his intent for this verse in verses 3:9 and 3:23. His point is that there is no one who is sinless. All men, both Jew and Gentile, have the need for forgiveness. This should not be taken to mean that men can not choose to live rightly - it is just that they can not be sinless. Now there are many places where even Jesus Himself acknowledges the existence of righteous men (like in Matthew 13:17, and 23:35). So if Jesus says there are righteous men, there are righteous men - but notice that Jesus does not call them sinless. A proper biblical perspective would acknowledge that no man is sinless, yet there is a significant distinction between the one who serves God and the one who does not (Malachi 3:18). Sincerely,
Bandit
Bandit, I think you hit the nail on the head when you say that believers are not sinless, but are righteous.
To me a righteous person would not be perfect, but would be noble, ethical,exemplary, honourable and making a conscious effort to work towards excellance.
We are all weak sinners saved by grace, but we should strive to live righteous, perfected lives. If a believer still remains in homosexuality and doesn't humbly go before Jesus to uproot that sin, are they living righteously? If a believer continues to be in bondage to some sort of old habit, with no thought of trying to give up that lifestyle, are they living righteously?
Psalm 94:15 Judgment will come again for the righteous, and those who are upright will have a reward.
Psalm 118:20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.
Proverbs 21:21 He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour.
Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life."
Bandit you mentioned Romans 3:10. (“There is none righteous, no not one.”)
Romans 3 is concerning an argument the Jews are having with Paul, saying that because they have special favour with God that they believe they have preferance or advantage into the kingdom of heaven. But Paul says, "No", that Jews and Gentiles alike are all sinners and have to humble themselves before the throne of God to become saved.
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Bandit
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
I'm still completely flabbergasted how both these things can be true:
Jesus died for 100% of my sins on the cross
It's a free gift, lest anyone should boast.
And then Paul can say that "liars, the effiminate, revilers" and assorted others "cannot inherit the kingdom of God".
How can these two ideas co-exist? Are they not mutually exclusive?
Did Jesus really agree with His Father that Jesus would only die for certain sins but not for those sins?
Doesn't it say that Jesus "died for the sins of the world"?
1 Corinthians 15:3
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
...
How can the two be true at once? That's what puzzles me.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Hello BA,
I have followed through most of this thread, and have read many things: some I agree with and some I disagree with. Even though you admit this is a perplexing question, you are to be commended. You illustrate by your question that you are thinking about the scriptures. Not to be condescending, but in my opinion most “Christians” never get this far. As one who has asked similar types of questions, I will, as best I can, give you the answers I believe to be true. In the end, though, you must decide for yourself what you believe.
I do not know you, and I do not know what kind of church you go to, nor do I know what you really believe. I do know, though, that I have gone through some similar kinds of questioning. Looking back upon my own perplexities over the word of God, I can honestly say that for the most part they were due to the fact that I was hearing one thing from the pulpit, but reading something else from the scriptures. I have come to realize that most churches teach a combination of biblical truth and man-made doctrine. Problems (or inconsistencies) come about when man-made doctrine (man’s interpretations of God’s word) conflicts with biblical truth. I believe you are at just such a crossroads.
Many churches teach that salvation is by faith alone. I can agree with that, depending upon how they define faith. Many churches teach that all one must do is acknowledge mentally (like through a “sinner’s prayer) that Christ died for their sins. “Just accept Jesus as Savior,” they would say. It is not that I don’t believe that Jesus is our Savior, but I believe that is only part of the truth. And a partial truth is often also a partial lie. Jesus is more than Savior - He is the Eternal King! When the “gospel” is presented, and no mention is made of His Lordship, nor the duties and responsibilities of those who would be saved (those who would enter His kingdom), then I feel a great injustice has been done (and the true gospel has been misrepresented). Anyone who tries to sell you salvation apart from moral responsibility towards God is selling you fool’s gold.
Jesus said, “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?” There are many questions one must ask when trying to understand the bible, but the answers can only be found when we combine all that the scriptures have to say. I bet you have been taught that salvation is by faith and not by works, and that it is a free gift. And if such is true, then there can be no moral stipulation or requirement upon the ones being saved, because otherwise the gift would not be a truly free gift. If this is what you have been taught, which is what I suspect, then you have been feed a half-truth (fool’s gold).
In Ephesians 2:8&9, it says “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.” This verse is often used in support of such things as: 1) the notion that faith itself is the gift, or 2), the notion that moral behavior can have no impact upon salvation. I believe both these notions are wrong. In regards to the first point, it should be noted that according to Greek grammar, a pronoun must agree in gender with its antecedent (the thing it refers to). The pronoun “it” seen in verse 8 is actually not in the original text (it is added to make the English reading easier), but the word “that” (which is in the original text) must refer back to something. But the pronoun translated “that” is of neuter gender while both the words “grace” and “faith” are feminine in gender. This would indicate that the “gift of God” under discussion here can be neither “grace” nor “faith”. So the question then remains, what then is the gift of God? (What is the antecedent of “that”?) In Greek, a neuter pronoun can refer back to an entire phrase or thought, which is what we must have here. If so, then the gift of God being discussed here must be the notion of salvation by faith. So it is this entire process which is God’s gift. He has made salvation by faith possible. This verse, understood in this manner, is in agreement with other scriptures which either implicitly or explicitly ascribe “faith” as something men must do. Faith is man’s proper response to God. And as a result of a man’s faith, God saves him. But now the question is what is faith? Or more importantly, what does Paul mean when he uses this word? Does faith encompass how a man lives, or can a man think one way, yet act another?
I would claim, that when we allow all of scripture to speak, we must come away with the very clear understanding that faith for Paul is something far more than intellectual assent to a few certain facts about the earthly life of Christ (like that He died on the cross and rose from the grave). Faith in Christ, according to Paul, means believing that Jesus is Lord! For example, try reading through 1st Timothy with the notion that a believer can think one way yet walk another and see how far you get. In verse 6:12 Paul charges Timothy to “fight the good fight of faith.” Paul seems to see faith as having an aspect of activity associated with it. Paul then commands Timothy to “lay hold on eternal life.” Again, Paul is commanding an activity, and it is interesting that he seems to have in the same breath associated laying hold on eternal life with fighting the good fight of faith. So true, saving faith for Paul is much more than just mental assent. It is an activity which demands deliberate effort.
BA, you asked,
“How can the Bible say that:
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Galatians 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you beforehand, as I have also told you in time past, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
I think this is easy to explain, if one has a proper biblical perspective. The problem is that man-made doctrines (like Calvinism) have all but distorted a proper biblical perspective. I am sure you are familiar with Romans 3:10 where it says, “There is none righteous, no not one.” And I would bet you are probably familiar with how the Calvinists use this verse to prove their “total depravity” doctrine. So if none are righteous, then all must be unrighteous - right? But then didn’t Paul say (which brings up your question) in 1 Corinthians 6:9 that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? If so, then that means that no one inherits the kingdom of God. So the kingdom ends up being a big, empty place - right? But read the Sheep and Goats Judgement described in Matthew 25. Do you see any description of the “righteous?” But I thought there weren’t any righteous! How can this be? This is all easily explain, but only if one views things from a proper biblical perspective. For example, take Romans 3:10. (“There is none righteous, no not one.”) In my opinion, Paul clearly explains his intent for this verse in verses 3:9 and 3:23. His point is that there is no one who is sinless. All men, both Jew and Gentile, have the need for forgiveness. This should not be taken to mean that men can not choose to live rightly - it is just that they can not be sinless. Now there are many places where even Jesus Himself acknowledges the existence of righteous men (like in Matthew 13:17, and 23:35). So if Jesus says there are righteous men, there are righteous men - but notice that Jesus does not call them sinless. A proper biblical perspective would acknowledge that no man is sinless, yet there is a significant distinction between the one who serves God and the one who does not (Malachi 3:18).
So, BA, I hope this helps some. And keep asking those questions as you read the scriptures.
Sincerely,
Bandit
Posts: 113 | From: Melbourne, Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
I'm still completely flabbergasted how both these things can be true:
Jesus died for 100% of my sins on the cross
It's a free gift, lest anyone should boast.
And then Paul can say that "liars, the effiminate, revilers" and assorted others "cannot inherit the kingdom of God".
How can these two ideas co-exist? Are they not mutually exclusive?
Did Jesus really agree with His Father that Jesus would only die for certain sins but not for those sins?
Jesus died for every sin in the world, but we have to make the choice to ask for forgiveness of each sin we commit. It's all about choice. If someone hasn't asked for forgiveness of adultery, they will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. As soon as they are forgiven, they will inherit the kingdom of heaven.
James 4:4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
Isaiah 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
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ThomasC
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These scriptures are helpful to me regarding this topic
Belief and confession
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Justification (note past tense "were")
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such WERE some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God
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Hold fast faith - willful sin - our attitude to sin - willfully sinning.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us HOLD FAST THE PROFFESION OF OUR FAITH WITHOUT WAVERING; (for he is faithful that promised;) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 FOR IF WE SIN WILFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINETH NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
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Walk in light, follow Jesus commands, acknowledge and repent from sin committed by the believer
1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS, AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. AND IF ANY MAN SIN, WE HAVE AN ADVOCATE WITH THE FATHER, JESUS CHRIST THE RIGHTEOUS: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 AND HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS . 4 HE THAT SAITH, I KNOW HIM, AND KEEPETH NOT HIS COMMANDMENTS, IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
God bless,
Tom
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epouraniois
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Remembering that Christ came to fulfill the promises made to the fathers, and that in the Acts period resides the dispensation of promise:
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham (includes for the edification to these Jews - in Isaac=through Esau those gentiles standing outside the middle wall of partition); who is the father of us all
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our (Israel's) justification.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Of course:
The mystery body was not revealed, but the principles at work here, apply to the church as well. There are dozens upon dozens upon dozens of differences, but here, the difference is to the time of the choosing. These were chosen since the foundation of the world, whereas the church was chosen before the foundation of the world.
Hence, the nations were never under the law, and are not now under the Mosaic law.
Predestination is never used of non believers. It does not have anything to do with the English idea of destiny, rather, it means before the horizon.
Heb 9:9, since the law was a figure for the time then present,being replace by it's fulfillment in Christ, James is apt to state that to go back under the law meant that even the slightest violation made one guilty of violating every single law that was ever written.
Just as Israel decided to not hear and not see, God made it their reality. It was their choice.
Just as, before Genesis12, God had given the world the redemptive plan of the ages written in the stars, they failed to acknowledge it, so God gave them up, gave them up, gave them over...
The same thing happened to Israel at the close of Romans (final Acts period epistle), and the close of the Acts, at which point the Lord revealed the church, the mystery body, wherein Paul preached for two years, writing the prison epistles.
And the teaching of hell is absent from Paul's ministry, for Paul is the minister of the reconciliation.
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epouraniois
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quote:
Born Again
I'm still completely flabbergasted how both these things can be true:
Jesus died for 100% of my sins on the cross
It's a free gift, lest anyone should boast.
And then Paul can say that "liars, the effiminate, revilers" and assorted others "cannot inherit the kingdom of God".
How can these two ideas co-exist? Are they not mutually exclusive?
Did Jesus really agree with His Father that Jesus would only die for certain sins but not for those sins?
Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
the prediction by foreknowledge of the charactor of the chosen channel:
Luk 19:44
And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
They did not inherit the kingdom of God, although it was nigh at hand, twice.
The requirement was to have the aftermindedness to engage an heartfelt return to the truth of the Scirpture, and the 'at hand' kingdom.
Otherwise, they could in now way inherit that kingdom while in the flesh.
Just as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, likewise, many shall be in need of instruction in that great time of teaching following the resurrection.
The overcomers will need cleansing as well, but in the OT, it is made quite clear that it never crossed His mind to burn any of His children.
All are saved, so as by fire. God is a consuming fire.
Isa 22:14
And it was revealed in mine ears by the LORD of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offends in one point, he is guilty of all.
This is talking about the Ten Commandments and the new covenant law of love, which is under the saving power of Jesus. We are saved from the old Mosaic law of sin and condemnation, but still have rules to follow under the grace of salvation. Therefore, if someone is committing adultery/fornication as in a homosexual relationship, they are breaking all of the laws.
quote:
Romans 7
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
I thought the whole world were ALL sinners? If SOME then are sinners saved by grace, how then can certain sins be excluded from grace?
For does not the scripture say that there is ONLY ONE SIN unto death, and that is blasphey against the Holy Spirit?
Notice that Romans 7 is talking about two types of laws - the old law of sin and the new law of love.
James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
quote:
Luke 12 9 But he that denies me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemes against the Holy Spirit it shall not be forgiven.
But:
Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we do not know what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Are all Christians immediately cleansed from these things? No. Then I ask again, "how long do they have, weeks, months, years, a lifetime"?
How can Paul say that people with certain sins cannot make it into the kingdom when "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"?
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinnedd.
It is a perplexing question to me right now. God bless, BORN AGAIN [/QB]
All have sinned means before we are under the grace of God through salvation. I tried to explain the sanctifiction process in my other posts.
I am a bit down and seem to have some cobwebs in my brain this morning, so if I didn't make myelf clear, perhaps you can ask some questions.
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BORN AGAIN
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dear bandit wrote quote:
So, yes, all debts have been paid in full, in a sense. Yet in another sense, they have only been transfered. Christ is now the one to Whom we must answer. (No one comes to the Father but by Him.) Anyone who rejects the Son's gracious offer has done great evil to himself.
Yes, that is true. Then you write quote:
Anyone who lives a life which can be characterized by the verses you quoted above has most certainly rejected God
.I think that all of us have sinned and will sin again in the future, and if they were counted, that would put us back under the Law.
For James said that "even committing one sin makes one as guilty as if one committed all the sins".
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offends in one point, he is guilty of all.
I think all of us commit one of those sins in those lists now and then. I am probably a reviler now and then of someone who drove by, and I know I could be a liar if keeping my job depended on what I said.
I'm not an effiminate person, but I can see how excess testosterone in a female and excess estrogen in a male could be a problem for that female and male which might be hard to overcome.
I am thankful to God that I am not a Christian homosexual and having to try to undo that while loving to read the Word by myself, loving God and tasting the goodness of God in many other parst of my life...maybe not that one yet, but, hey, I'm not who I used to be before I accepted Jesus either, okay? I thank God that I don't have to think about any of that, Amen? Lord, have mercy.
So to summarize, bandit, you wrote[ quote:
Anyone who lives a life which can be characterized by the verses you quoted above has most certainly rejected God
. I think ALL Christians are working on stuff, don't you?
Romans 7
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
I thought the whole world were ALL sinners? If SOME then are sinners saved by grace, how then can certain sins be excluded from grace?
For does not the scripture say that there is ONLY ONE SIN unto death, and that is blasphey against the Holy Spirit?
Luke 12
9 But he that denies me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemes against the Holy Spirit it shall not be forgiven.
But:
Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we do not know what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Are all Christians immediately cleansed from these things? No. Then I ask again, "how long do they have, weeks, months, years, a lifetime"?
How can Paul say that people with certain sins cannot make it into the kingdom when "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"?
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinnedd.
It is a perplexing question to me right now. God bless, BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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I'm still completely flabbergasted how both these things can be true:
Jesus died for 100% of my sins on the cross
It's a free gift, lest anyone should boast.
And then Paul can say that "liars, the effiminate, revilers" and assorted others "cannot inherit the kingdom of God".
How can these two ideas co-exist? Are they not mutually exclusive?
Did Jesus really agree with His Father that Jesus would only die for certain sins but not for those sins?
Doesn't it say that Jesus "died for the sins of the world"?
1 Corinthians 15:3
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Is Paul speaking of Christians who are still sometimes liars and is Paul speaking of Christians who still be somewhat effiminate after having been that way for years, or is Paul speaking of non-Christians liars and effiminate and revilers who have never accepted Christ?
How is it possible that these sins are NOT COVERED by the cross of Jesus according to Paul, that's what I want to know.
FOREVER HIS, sometimes you are just the man who has a satisfying answer for me; do you have anything?
How can the two be true at once? That's what puzzles me.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
BA, I believe as you said that one believes first and then repents(which means turn around and go in the other direction).
Now I have a question.
I work with a man who loves the Lord. He is so nice to everyone, goes to church, talks about Jesus saving him, he was a drug addict at one time, and has since given that up for 3 years now.
But guess what. He is a homosexual. He lives with a man, and does not believe that this is wrong in Gods eyes. He has been a believer now for 3 years. So if he died tonight, would he inherit the kingdom, go to heaven or be seperated from God because of his lifestyle? Is he being decieved or is he correct?
Do we just continue to sin because of such grace that we have thru Jesus? What do the scriptures say? Shalom
I think that Paul taught that we are in more danger if we hang out with professors who are not possessors more than if we hang out with the unbelieving dreggs, ref. 2 Thes. 3.
We are in danger of harming the professed believer by both concert and by enablement. The OT provides examples where it is the possessor who changes their views, and not the other way around, but with believers, admonishing them as a brother that they might return.
For the one body, called the church, the context of repentance is only found once, and there it is God who gives personal repentance, and fits the above question along with 2 Thes. 3, see 2Ti 2:25.
1Ti 1:10 & most any verse in the prison ministry with the word 'doctrine' in it.
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Carmela
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BA I certainly agree with you that if this is a sin that he knows is a sin and struggles with, then it is one thing. However, she said this:
quote:
But guess what. He is a homosexual. He lives with a man, and does not believe that this is wrong in Gods eyes.
She said he doesn't believe it's a sin. This is why I said he is in denial.
Homosexuality isn't the only sin that is hard to over come. All sexual sins are hard to over come. That is why so many Christians have a hard time putting pornography aside.
However, it is sin. I struggle with certain sins daily also. Paul said he had to crucify his flesh daily. We all do. But denying that you have a problem is worse than admitting that it's sin and going on from there.
This man will not even have a chance at being set free, in spite of how difficult it is, if he continues to deny that God sees it as sin. We have to first admit our sins before we can even begin to deal with them and move forward.
My heart goes out to this man though because I know what a struggle he is facing. I've known homosexual Christians that got out of it and didn't struggle ever again and I know some that although they may or may not fall into it again, the temptation is always there.
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BORN AGAIN
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dear sister Carmela, you write quote:
If this guy is denying this scripture then he is in denial. That is like turning away from Christ because he is saying God would accept this when the scripture makes it clear that God does not accept homosexuality.
dear sister, I am not a homosexual, but I can tell you this...that you probably wouldn't be talking as flippantly about "this guy being in denial about this scripture" if YOU were a homosexual.
Of all the sins of the flesh and also based on historic attempts by Christian groups to "rescue" homosexuals, I think that homosexuality is one of THE most difficult things to come out of or to stop doing. The "exit" rate for those "counseled and treated" by Christian groups is extremely few.
I don't think this guy is in denial at all; he simply does NOT know how to stop doing this behavior. In fact, it's the only time he has probably been halfway happy in his life, being with his male friend.
Is he therefore condemned eventhough he has accepted Jesus in his life?
And did Jesus suffer on the cross only on behalf of certain sins or on behalf of ALL sins?
Did Jesus ever say, "I am going to die for these sins, but I am NOT going to die for those sins"?
It doesn't make any sense to me. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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Carmela
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Yahsway, the bible is clear that a man shall not lie with a man or a woman with a woman. If this guy is denying this scripture then he is in denial. That is like turning away from Christ because he is saying God would accept this when the scripture makes it clear that God does not accept homosexuality.
I'll be praying for this guy. I am grateful that he is at least seeking God because some day he may change his ways. I am not judging, just saying what the scriptures say about it.
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BORN AGAIN
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dear Adv.Christian, you wrote quote:
I fear I note a hint of legalism attempting to enter your spirit.
Well, after reading those two scriptures in my Topic and thinking about Jesus dying for my sins, how could some legalism not enter?
I'm kind of shocked by the whole concept when I suddenly saw the contradiction involved when these two ideas are contrasted together. They seem to be so "mutually exclusive" to me.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Assuming for the sake of this discussion that this fellow dies while still in a homosexual, as far as he is concerned, loving relationship. What will happen to him?
And, by comparison, if another man is about to die with all his sins "still unworked on", will that man be saved because "he had no time" to work on his sins?
Between these two men, would it not be much better then to find salvation at the very last moment? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) God bless, BORN AGAIN
Do we think we can tiptoe around salvation and all will end well in the end? Why risk eternity? Who says they will get a chance 'at the very last moment'?
The man who is still proudly defying that he is not accoutable for his carnal homosexual lifestyle may be treading on very dangerous ground. Many seem to think believers can twist the scriptures so that we can get away with absolutely anything and end up in heaven. Is this a ploy of the devil?
God is a jealous God - it is impossible to serve two masters. What is going to be, the devil or God?
Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
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BORN AGAIN
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yahsway, let's take your friend. He's being doing a pretty good job overall trying to "unsin" his sin, but this homosexuality thing, he is having a hard time with, nay, an impossible time thus far.
He is no doubt aware what the scripture says about homosexuality, and yet he has not been able to let it go, or even see that much wrong with it yet himself, eventhough he knows that the Word says that it is an abomination to the LORD.
Assuming for the sake of this discussion that this fellow dies while still in a homosexual, as far as he is concerned, loving relationship. What will happen to him?
And, by comparison, if another man is about to die with all his sins "still unworked on", will that man be saved because "he had no time" to work on his sins?
Between these two men, would it not be much better then to find salvation at the very last moment?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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Adv.Christian
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My sister I pray your forgiveness; I failed to convey my thoughts properly. I certainly was not intending to say you were being judgmental for I did not believe you were. I was going for the angle that this is a very slippery hill side in so far as how easily it can lead away from the judgment of actions to the judgment of people.
As to your question quote:
but in light of what scripture says, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God, what does this mean to you?
If you apply this verse unilaterally then Heaven is going to have three occupants. The blood of Christ covered the sins of believers in their entirety the only catch being it is the sins of believers not false faith ho;ders.
As to witnessing to people you answered your question well in your closing statement [quote]So yes, we are not to judge whether one is going to heaven or is saved,that alone is for God, but we as believers are supposed to judge the fruits of those who claim they are followers of the Christ. You will know them by their fruits. Adultry, fornication, homosexuality, lying, murdering, ect.. are not fruits of righteousness(right standing with the Father) but are fruits of following another father.[quote] Then after showing them God’s Word ask them, If you (talking about the person) were God and judging you would you let you in Heaven? As always my love to all and May God Bless.
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
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yahsway
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I agree AdvChristian, this was not a judgement statement, but a question such as BA's question.
No doubt he needs our prayers, but in light of what scripture says, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God, what does this mean to you?
And how does one let go of their fleshly desires? Is it not by the renewing of our minds thru the washing of the water of the Word?
How would one assist this brother and strengthen him in his walk. Would you not use the word of God, the scriptures? Of course praying for him, but do we not also use the scriptures? How is one saved unless they hear the word and how can one hear unless one is sent to preach the word?
When will christians stand up and call sin, sin? It is surely not judging anyone to call sin, sin.
And what does it mean to "repent"?
Is it being "judgemental" to point one to the scriptures?
Our righteousness is as filthy rags before Him. True enough for we are only made righteous thru His shedding of blood. But our God does say for us to Be Holy even as He is holy, for without holiness no man shall see God.
So yes, we are not to judge whether one is going to heaven or is saved,that alone is for God, but we as believers are supposed to judge the fruits of those who claim they are followers of the Christ. You will know them by their fruits. Adultry, fornication, homosexuality, lying, murdering, ect.. are not fruits of righteousness(right standing with the Father) but are fruits of following another father. Shalom
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Adv.Christian
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Sister yahsway you wrote;
quote:
I work with a man who loves the Lord. He is so nice to everyone, goes to church, talks about Jesus saving him, he was a drug addict at one time, and has since given that up for 3 years now.
But guess what. He is a homosexual. He lives with a man, and does not believe that this is wrong in Gods eyes. He has been a believer now for 3 years. So if he died tonight,would he inherit the kingdom, go to heaven or be separated from God because of his lifestyle? Is he being deceived or is he correct?
I emboldened the one section to say that this is where as Christians (I am not saying you are doing this) we tend to go overboard. The judgment sections of the Word of God such as in Luke 6
Luke 6:37 - Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
I believe are warning us not to judge a person as to their salvation, however I do believe we as Christians are to judge one another’s actions and confront them with them.
I believe it is 1 Corinthians chapter11 which goes into the directive of Christians judging ourselves in order that we not be judged.
As to your part of the question Is he being deceived or is he correct? That would be a yes he is being deceived; or he simply has not grown to the point where he can let go of his fleshly desires. As we all know the Word of God states homosexuality is an abomination unto the lord. All we can do is pray for him and witness to him in an effort to assist him and strengthen him in his walk with God.
As always my love to all and May God Bless.
![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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yahsway
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BA, I believe as you said that one believes first and then repents(which means turn around and go in the other direction).
Now I have a question.
I work with a man who loves the Lord. He is so nice to everyone, goes to church, talks about Jesus saving him, he was a drug addict at one time, and has since given that up for 3 years now.
But guess what. He is a homosexual. He lives with a man, and does not believe that this is wrong in Gods eyes. He has been a believer now for 3 years. So if he died tonight, would he inherit the kingdom, go to heaven or be seperated from God because of his lifestyle? Is he being decieved or is he correct?
Do we just continue to sin because of such grace that we have thru Jesus? What do the scriptures say? Shalom
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Adv.Christian
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BA you posted quote:
Must all those "habits" be given up, buried and killed BEFORE one believes that Jesus is the Son of God, in what is called "repentance"?
Or does one BELIEVE FIRST and then "repent"?
No person is going to be able “to kill” the fleshly nature without the acceptance of Christ in their hearts all things are through Him.
quote:
If one believes FIRST and with the help of the Holy Spirit recognizes and admits that one is sinful ("a law of sin in my members"), then how many days, or how many weeks, or how many months, or how many years or does one have a whole lifetime does to...ummm...give up and bury and kill those...umm..."old habits"?
I fear I note a hint of legalism attempting to enter your spirit. Once a person accepts Christ their lives will change at God’s decided speed. To use an analogy I used on another board;
If you have a quart can of oil with the lid is off of it and leave it outside; what happens when it rains? The water will cause the oil to flow out of the top of the can. The amount of rain dictates how much oil comes out each time it rains. It might take a week to replace all the oil with water if there is a heavy rain season or in dryer times it might take a year.
Mans heart is much like that can in that as God pours His Spirit into your heart it will displace the fleshly desires of sin and corruption but it happens over time. And just as the size of the opening in the top of the can would limit how much rain could enter the can so to the hardness of man’s heart limits how fast God will work in their lives.
All this being said I believe the actions of man in so far as continual sin is concerned is not the dictating factor but instead the question becomes are we growing and continuing to walk with Christ by allowing our can to be filled with His spirit instead of holding on to our own.
As always my love to all and May God Bless.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Must all those "habits" be given up, buried and killed BEFORE one believes that Jesus is the Son of God, in what is called "repentance"?
Or does one BELIEVE FIRST and then "repent"?
If one believes FIRST and with the help of the Holy Spirit recognizes and admits that one is sinful ("a law of sin in my members"), then how many days, or how many weeks, or how many months, or how many years or does one have a whole lifetime does to...ummm...give up and bury and kill those...umm..."old habits"?
My question is then still: are these people who have believed, are they supposed to "clean themselves up first" before they can inherit the kingdom of God, or can they "believe first and be saved" and "hopefully manage to clean themselves up entirely" with the help of the Holy Spirit?
Or what if they are unable to "totally cleanse themselves of just one last of these "old habits", then what will happen to them?
Must we clean ourselves up before the end of our lives, or else?
Or do only certain habits need to be cleansed but cleansing others, like maybe cursing somewhat out who gets too close with his car on my tail at 70 mph, must we also be clean of all of those before the end of our life, or else?
Are there some sins which MUST be cleaned up before the end of one's lifetime? What about the person who acccepted Jesus just before they died? He or she did not have time to cleanse themselves?
And yet Jesus died for 100% of the sins of the sinners, or didn't He?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Jesus takes us just as we are, mess and all, and then cleans us up after. He carried 100% of our sins on the cross, but through his precious blood and through our accepting, we are cleansed from all sin.
When we accept him we are pure as the driven snow, but it doesn't take long before the prince of this world will start attacking the flesh.
Our bodies are of this world until the day we die, so the flesh has to constantly die to itself. If we have been faithful, at the moment of death, our bodies become perfected and glorified, and all sin will be cleansed and washed away.
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BORN AGAIN
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sister yahsway wrote quote:
all those "habits" are just that and they must be given-up, buried, killed so that Christ can live thru and that person will be known for their fruits. It is not us that lives but Christ thru us if we are born again.
Must all those "habits" be given up, buried and killed BEFORE one believes that Jesus is the Son of God, in what is called "repentance"?
Or does one BELIEVE FIRST and then "repent"?
If one believes FIRST and with the help of the Holy Spirit recognizes and admits that one is sinful ("a law of sin in my members"), then how many days, or how many weeks, or how many months, or how many years or does one have a whole lifetime does to...ummm...give up and bury and kill those...umm..."old habits"?
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Galatians 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you beforehand, as I have also told you in time past, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
My question is then still: are these people who have believed, are they supposed to "clean themselves up first" before they can inherit the kingdom of God, or can they "believe first and be saved" and "hopefully manage to clean themselves up entirely" with the help of the Holy Spirit?
Or what if they are unable to "totally cleanse themselves of just one last of these "old habits", then what will happen to them?
Must we clean ourselves up before the end of our lives, or else?
Or do only certain habits need to be cleansed but cleansing others, like maybe cursing somewhat out who gets too close with his car on my tail at 70 mph, must we also be clean of all of those before the end of our life, or else?
Are there some sins which MUST be cleaned up before the end of one's lifetime? What about the person who acccepted Jesus just before they died? He or she did not have time to cleanse themselves?
How can the Bible say that:
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Galatians 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you beforehand, as I have also told you in time past, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
And yet Jesus died for 100% of the sins of the sinners, or didn't He?
BTW, RioLion, I esp. liked your addition. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
So are you saying that on Monday someone is a fornicator, liar, or an effiminate person or a reviler, and at midnight s/he accepts Jesus through the Gospel Hour on TV, and on Tuesday the person is no longer a liar, no longer effiminate, no longer a reviler, no longer a fornicator, OR ELSE!?
How many days, weeks, months or years does a person have to "finally get rid of all those ingrained old habits" before they "cannot inherit the kingdom of God"?
BORN AGAIN
Some people are immediately freed from the bondage of an old lifestyle upon being saved. Others may take many months of really seeking Jesus' face to have temptations of old habits lifted. Others may be left with a weakness that has to be constantly guarded so that they won't slip back into old ways.
Also, there may be a deeply rooted hurt or carnality from the past that may come to surface after years into someone's spiritual walk that has to be dealt with.
None of us will ever have perfection until we reach the end of our journey and attain our purfied glorified bodies. It is a constant sanctification of our souls as the Holy Spirit daily peals off the layers. Our earthly bodies are being perfected, but never will be perfect.
Phil. 3:12-14 I don't mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection! But I keep working toward that day when I will finally be all that Christ Jesus saved me for and wants me to be.
No, dear brothers and sisters, I am still not all I should be, but I am focusing all my energies on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, I strain to reach the end of the race and receive the prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us up to heaven.
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yahsway
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BA, if one becomes Born again then it is not they that live but Christ in and thru them. Would Jesus the Christ do all those things you mentioned if He is in and thru His own?
2 Corinthians 5:15-
and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
all those "habits" are just that and they must be given-up, buried, killed so that Christ can live thru and that person will be known for their fruits. It is not us that lives but Christ thru us if we are born again.
Colossians 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry, because of these things the wrath of God Is Coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. (Please read the rest)
Shalom
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RioLion
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I once had a devout Roman Catholic tell me that Jesus did not pay for all our sins but merely made it possible for us to be saved. He then quoted that verse that stated we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. In other words, Jesus opened the gate of heaven to us, but we need to put forth the effort and crawl the rest of the way in. And if we were sincere enough and worked hard enough but still did not cleanse ourselves of all our sinfulness then there awaited us a place called purgatory - a place of cleansing so that we could approach a God that could not stand any sinfulness at all.
It is interesting that St. Augustine did much to advance the concept of purgatory than any of the other church fathers. And of course, he was the one that stated all we need was the Scripture; howbeit, he also recognized the Apocrypha in his belief for purgatory and prayers for the dead.
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Carmela
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I think Bandit said it very well.
However, I will answer on a more personal level. When I was first saved, God started talking to me when I was a child. I didn't really know for sure if I was really hearing from God at that time, but I knew that what He told me went against EVERYTHING I saw being lived out in my families lives.
As I grew older, I knew I wanted to be different but I didn't know exactly why. I knew that the things God told me like staying pure until marriage, not using drugs or alcohol even though they were all around me and even my mother tried to get me to do them with her, and so much more....
Now that I'm older, I realized that when I called on God as a child, He saved me. I have spent many years struggling to do what was right, but I mainly struggled with letting go of my will and doing he will of God.
How do I know that I was really saved? Because through the years, God never stopped directing me and guiding me. He never let me go, even when I went off into my own direction momentarily. He knew that He had placed His desires in my heart and I believe the He trusted Jesus in me to lead me to keep coming back each time. I never went too far off track because I knew that nothing was the same when I had my back facing Jesus.
He is faithful and merciful. He forgives all sins, but we have to choose Christ. We have to choose to keep coming back to Him when we stray. As Bandit said, some people turn their back completely and they never return to Jesus. They were given a choice and although I will do the best that I can to lead people back to Jesus, God gave each person the right to choose so I have to remind myself sometimes that I can not take their right to choose away from them either.
If and when people turn their backs on Him, they choose to walk in their sin. It isn't actually God that walked out on them, they choose to walk out on God. Their path leads to death. However, if they ever choose to repent and turn back to Jesus, I know that He will be standing there with outstretched arms ready to receive them into His Kingdom because there isn't any sin that can't be forgiven. God loves the world so much that He doesn't want any to perish but He reluctantly allows people to leave His bosom if that is what they choose.
I am so indebted to Jesus for paying the price for my sins and bridging the gap between man and God. I'm so grateful to God and in AWE by His Loving mercy that caused Him to never give up on me, even when I came to close to giving up on Him.
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BORN AGAIN
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So are you saying that on Monday someone is a fornicator, liar, or an effiminate person or a reviler, and at midnight s/he accepts Jesus through the Gospel Hour on TV, and on Tuesday the person is no longer a liar, no longer effiminate, no longer a reviler, no longer a fornicator, OR ELSE!?
How many days, weeks, months or years does a person have to "finally get rid of all those ingrained old habits" before they "cannot inherit the kingdom of God"?
BORN AGAIN
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yahsway
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Romans 6
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
verse 12: Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
15: What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righeousness?
18: having been set free from sin, you become slaves of righteousness.
chapter 7:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the fesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.6 For to be carnally minded is Death, but to be spiritually minded is Life and Peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Please re-read all of chapters 6,7,8. Shalom
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Bandit
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
I had always thought that Jesus paid for 100% of human sins:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
But how can that be if the following cannot make it into the kingdom of God?
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Galatians 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
My question is: are these people supposed to "clean themselves up first" or can they "believe and be saved" and then "hopefully manage to clean themselves up", and what if they are unable to "clean one of them up", what happens then?
And if they can "clean themselves up later", how much time to they have? One month? One year? A lifetime?
how does that work?
BORN AGAIN
I can offer you one way to think about the situation.
All men are sinners and therefore are in debt to God. (A debt they can not pay.) Jesus takes this debt upon Himself and pays it, so all, in effect, are now in debt to Jesus. Jesus offers forgiveness freely to all who will submit to His Lordship. One of His commands as Lord is for His followers to strive to live rightly (not sinless perfection). He also offers His own Spirit to help us to achieve that goal. He in fact says that we will be able to live acceptably (but again, not sinlessly) with the help of His Spirit, but only if we do our part (I can hear the nay-sayers already). But if we refuse to accept His Lordship, and/or if we refuse to purposefully engage ourselves to live as He has commanded, then He will hold our debts against us. Those in the verses you mention evidently have rejected Christ's offer in some fashion, having instead decided to live in the pleasure of sin. They have their reward.
So, yes, all debts have been paid in full, in a sense. Yet in another sense, they have only been transfered. Christ is now the one to Whom we must answer. (No one comes to the Father but by Him.) Anyone who rejects the Son's gracious offer has done great evil to himself. Anyone who lives a life which can be characterized by the verses you quoted above has most certainly rejected God.
Recall in Matthew 18 there is a parable concernig forgiveness. Notice that the point of the parable is that if a forgiven servant does not live as the King expects a forgiven servant to live, then the great debt, which was once forgiven, will be reinstated upon that servant. Not a pretty picture.
I hope this helps some.
Bandit
Posts: 113 | From: Melbourne, Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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BORN AGAIN
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I had always thought that Jesus paid for 100% of human sins:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
But how can that be if the following cannot make it into the kingdom of God?
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Galatians 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
My question is: are these people supposed to "clean themselves up first" or can they "believe and be saved" and then "hopefully manage to clean themselves up", and what if they are unable to "clean one of them up", what happens then?
And if they can "clean themselves up later", how much time to they have? One month? One year? A lifetime?
how does that work?
BORN AGAIN
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