|
Author
|
Topic: Does Prayer Move God?
|
trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358
|
posted
Amen, epouraniois, and thanks for the support. ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
Excellent points trafield; (and) I continue to re read the original post.
How often should one pray? and the answer is, 1 Thessalonians 5:17, "Pray without ceasing". The Apostle Paul declared again and again that he never ceased praying, specially for others (Rom.1:9; 1 Thess.1:3; 5:17; Eph.1:16; Col.1:19; and 2 Tim.1:3). So we should constantly pray and give thanks (Eph.5:20), and "Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving" (Col.4:2).
For my love they are my adversaries: but I prayer.
Psa 109:4
IP: Logged |
|
|
trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358
|
posted
quote:
Here is a good scripture to consider.
2 Chr 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
If my people, which are called by my name,
Shall humble themselves. Humility is the first thing God is looking for from His people.
And pray. The second thing He is looking for is a desire to pray, which can’t be worked up, but is granted to the humble.
And seek my face. The reason to pray is to seek His face and to seek His face is to seek His glory.
And turn from their wicked ways. This can’t be worked up, but the power to do so is granted when God’s glory is sought.
Then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. This is a promise of blessing.
The one thing we can do is humble ourselves and allows God full control. He only gives grace to the humble!!
I agree. I never said anything about working anything up. You are the one who seems hung up on that.
By its very nature praying is showing humility because you are showing that you need God. Being obedient is not "working things up." Being obedient is becoming humble and praying even when you do not feel like it. How is this "working things up?"
If you are only praying when you feel that you "are in the right spirit" then Satan has you right where he wants you. Because prayer is often a means to which we begin to feel the presense of the Spirit.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
In the epistle to the Philippians the apostle makes it his prayer:
`That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection' (Phil. 3:10).
Rev 8:4
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Col 1:3
We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds
Eph 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Eph 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel
IP: Logged |
|
|
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
|
posted
Here is a good scripture to consider.
2 Chr 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
If my people, which are called by my name,
Shall humble themselves. Humility is the first thing God is looking for from His people.
And pray. The second thing He is looking for is a desire to pray, which can’t be worked up, but is granted to the humble.
And seek my face. The reason to pray is to seek His face and to seek His face is to seek His glory.
And turn from their wicked ways. This can’t be worked up, but the power to do so is granted when God’s glory is sought.
Then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. This is a promise of blessing.
The one thing we can do is humble ourselves and allows God full control. He only gives grace to the humble!!
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358
|
posted
quote:
Dear trafield. I have no quarrel with the scripture you produce, but there is a difference in doing something because we have to and doing it because we want to.
It sounds like you are just trying to find something to disagree with. But let me put it this way:
If you want to do something God commands (like tithing) that is awesome and means you have grown up in Christ in that particualar area.
Children need rules to do things that they do not always feel like doing, until they grow up and see why they are better off following the rules.
It is no different with our Heavenly Father and His children. But I believe our Father, in His Grace and Mercy, also blesses those that are obedient even when they do not yet feel like it, or necessarily want to.
It is called overcoming the flesh. When you feel like getting even with an enemy, but you make a choice to forgive and pray for that person, you are overcoming...and God will certainly bless this.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
quote:
If all of us were to be on our knees continually because we are commanded to do so what would it accomplish? Nothing.
Not if that obedience came by faith.
Romans 1:5
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
2John :4-6
4It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
Dear trafield. I have no quarrel with the scripture you produce, but there is a difference in doing something because we have to and doing it because we want to.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358
|
posted
quote:
He doesn’t want an outward performance by us; He wants us to follow Him. He wants to lead the way and direct from within the temple of our bodies.
He won't be able to lead us if we will not submit to him in obedience. He wants us to be faithful.
Who said prayer has to be an outward performance?
Frankly, I am a little baffled at your resistance to good works. Remember friend, though we are not saved by works, faith without works is a dead faith!
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358
|
posted
quote:
If all of us were to be on our knees continually because we are commanded to do so what would it accomplish? Nothing.
Not if that obedience came by faith.
Romans 1:5
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
2John :4-6
4It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
quote:
When you say that, do you mean we are under the law of commandments?
Of course not! How in the world do you get that from me saying we are commanded to pray?
Does the fact that we are now under Grace mean that we can ingnore the commandments and go on sinning? God forbid! Does being under Grace mean we can be willfully diobedient? Absoultely not!
Romans 6:1-2
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Matthew 5:17-20
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
We are dead to the law because Christ who is the end of the law for righteousness to us is dwelling in us and wants full control. He doesn’t want an outward performance by us; He wants us to follow Him. He wants to lead the way and direct from within the temple of our bodies.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358
|
posted
quote:
When you say that, do you mean we are under the law of commandments?
Of course not! How in the world do you get that from me saying we are commanded to pray?
Does the fact that we are now under Grace mean that we can ingnore the commandments and go on sinning? God forbid! Does being under Grace mean we can be willfully diobedient? Absoultely not!
Romans 6:1-2
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Matthew 5:17-20
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
|
posted
quote:
trafield.
So no, I do not believe that God always leads one to pray. But He does command all of us to pray continually...that is the big difference.
When the command is there, then there is no need to wait for a 'leading.'
When you say that, do you mean we are under the law of commandments?
We are not under law but under grace. To say we must pray because we are commanded to do so is nothing more than Pharisee ritual. If all of us were to be on our knees continually because we are commanded to do so what would it accomplish? Nothing. This is not what God wants us to do and this is another area where our thoughts are often not Gods thoughts, nor our ways His ways. I said on another thread that “when we become born-again the law is no longer working from the outside in; it is working from the inside out.” This is an important difference. We act in accordance with the dictates of the Spirit. The question then arises, what are we to do? We should humble our selves and Give God the glory and then His commands within us will become effectual and powerful. God wants to bless us and knows what we need before we ask. But before He grants our desire, He puts it in our heart to ask, so that when it arrives we are in no doubt it came from Him, because we have already asked for it.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
1 Corinthians 10:31
So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.
This scripture has been coming at me quite a bit lately. As you say, Bloodbought, nothing gives God more pleasure than our becoming humble and giving him all of the glory and honour. It can move mountains.
IP: Logged |
|
|
trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358
|
posted
quote:
Does prayer move God? No. This answer may surprise some. However, let us put the question another way. Does God move one to prayer? Yes. This is an important difference.
This is one of those 'which came fist-the chicken or the egg' questions that I was talking about in my original post. Does God move us to pray, or do we by faith pray even when our flesh resists and would rather be doing something else?
But the danger of believing that prayer is always the result of God leading one to pray instead of believing that sometimes man can call out to God and seek His Voice by faith, is that it is way too convienient to not have a disciplined prayer life. So if I don't feel like praying today, then God must not be leading me to pray. That is a dangerous cop-out and is against God's will as stated in His Word.
So no, I do not believe that God always leads one to pray. But He does command all of us to pray continually...that is the big difference.
When the command is there, then there is no need to wait for a 'leading.'
And if we do not have any responsibility in praying, whether we feel like it or not, then the following verse would not have much meaning:
The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. Phillipians 4:7
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
Bloodbought, I was going to ask you where faith comes into the picture, because faith is always very essential in prayer, and it comes from us. Are you saying that by glorifying God, that is faith in action?
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Yes, I believe giving glory to God is true faith in action and is something God desires above everything else from His children. When we give God all the glory, we are building a relationship with the greatest giver of all that will bring great reward to our lives, because God is more willing to give than we are to receive. Although God demands all of the glory and us to humble ourselves, He is doing this solely for our benefit and not His own. He is ready and willing to bless and worthy of all the glory.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
Bloodbought, I was going to ask you where faith comes into the picture, because faith is always very essential in prayer, and it comes from us. Are you saying that by glorifying God, that is faith in action?
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Does prayer move God?
That is an important question, and one that should be pondered with a little...well, prayer.
If God is sovereign, and He is...if God is all-knowing, and He is...if God knows everything from beginning to end, and He does...then why pray, and does it have any effect anyway?
Hi trafield.
Excellent post and you ask a good question.
Does prayer move God? No. This answer may surprise some. However, let us put the question another way. Does God move one to prayer? Yes. This is an important difference. God will not be pushed by our prayers to grant us anything, but He does desire prayer. He wants us to come into His throne room and pour out our hearts to Him, a privilege granted only on the merits of the blood of Christ. When we come before God in prayer, is He smiling or frowning on us? That depends on whither we are praying for His benefit or our own. He doesn’t want us coming before Him seeking something for our own benefit and glory because He demands all of the glory. He only smiles on us when He is receiving all of the glory. The question may be asked, why is God demanding all of the glory when He commanded us to humble ourselves and seek no glory? Why is God demanding the very thing He said if we demand is sin? Is God for us or for Himself? Is God conceited? How can God be for us by telling us to humble ourselves and seek no glory while He seeks all of the glory Himself? How can we benefit by humbling ourselves and giving God glory? This is one area were our thoughts are often not God’s thoughts. Make no mistake God is for us all the way and His one great desire is to bless us abundantly far above what we could even ask or think. God is holy, highest above all and gave us everything He had got. He gave us HIMSELF! Therefore, He deserves all glory. We are sinful and deserve nothing and it is only by humbling ourselves and giving God the glory; He can bless us in return and direct us in prayer according to His will. True prayer is born in heaven and showers down blessing in abundance.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
Prayer moves men. God is always working to bering about HIS PERFECT Will in the earth; Prayer moves men to the place where they are demonstrating faith in GOD to be the provider of all that man is in need of. Prayer moves man to the place of humility and contrite spirit that acknowledges that God is God and man needs God.
Prayer moves menn, into alignment with God and God's perfect will.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358
|
posted
quote:
A Christian’s prayer serve to bring them closer to the will of God and in so doing the natural occurrence is that their prayers began to coincide more closely to God’s will allowing for more of the prayers to be answered since they are in relation to God’s will for us. Only through prayer will we truly grow closer to God, we can learn more about Him but to grow closer we must talk and walk with Him always. I apologize for the readers digest answer, I do not have much time right now but I did want to respond to this question concerning my belief in prayer.
I would like to leave you with a question I asked of my class Sunday; When was the last time you asked God how He was feeling and doing? You may be surprised by the response. As always my love to all and May God Bless.
Adv. Christian,
Thank you for summing up the point of my post. As far as your question goes...I must admit I really do not ask God how He is doing because I know that He is perfect...always. He is just always...He is love...always.
But I think I get your point. It is not really about us, it is about Him...and to that I say, Amen!
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lars7:
Faith is the only thing that moves God!...
let me ask then, is faith alone enough? I ask because faith by itself has no meaning, one must have faith in something.
If I say to someone, I have promise, the question becomes promise of what, or if I say, I have belief, the question becomes belief in what. Likewise, when one says faith without qualifying it with some adjectives, the question becomes, faith in what?
IP: Logged |
|
|
Adv.Christian
Advanced Member
Member # 3453
|
posted
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) Trafeild allow me to began by saying I love your post.
You started out by saying quote:
That is an important question, and one that should be pondered with a little...well, prayer.
If God is sovereign, and He is...if God is all-knowing, and He is...if God knows everything from beginning to end, and He does...then why pray, and does it have any effect anyway?
Please allow me to ask another question in return (my poor attempt to answer your question) When a person is sailing on the open seas and first comes into sight of land, which appears to them to be moving, the land or themselves? Prayer serves much the same outcome. While God most assuredly dose grant the prayers of His children, He is divinely held by His own perfection and only will grant those prayers which are consistent with His will. A Christian’s prayer serve to bring them closer to the will of God and in so doing the natural occurrence is that their prayers began to coincide more closely to God’s will allowing for more of the prayers to be answered since they are in relation to God’s will for us. Only through prayer will we truly grow closer to God, we can learn more about Him but to grow closer we must talk and walk with Him always. I apologize for the readers digest answer, I do not have much time right now but I did want to respond to this question concerning my belief in prayer.
I would like to leave you with a question I asked of my class Sunday; When was the last time you asked God how He was feeling and doing? You may be surprised by the response. As always my love to all and May God Bless. ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
--------------------
A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
Posts: 299 | From: Raleigh/North Carolina | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Lars7
Advanced Member
Member # 4911
|
posted
Faith is the only thing that moves God!....Now many people pray for this or that and when results dont manafest in a short time doubt and unbelif will creep in....Prayers based in total Faith is what moves God......Remember the reaction of Jesus when the Centurion need Him to speak a word for his servant.....Jesus was just amazed at this mans Faith.......Praying is the easy part....everyone knows how to pray.....But its the Faith behind that Prayer that will get God to take notice!
Posts: 49 | From: Ma | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
Pray most certainly does move God if that prayer is in accordance to His will.
Other prayer move other gods, such as the god of this world by which Alister Crowley prayed, 'what is it thou wilst to do'.
But to move God, we must know what God wills to do, and that is given the church of the mystery in the following prayer as set forth by the Holy Spirit though the vessel Paul the prisoner:
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
If the Holy Spirit sets this prayer foremost and above all other prayers to the church, then it must be because it is above all other things, that we may know Him.
IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Trust means accepting that God may have a different timetable for answering our prayers than we think He should have. Trust means accepting that sometimes prayer moves God, and sometimes it does not.
Great post trafield. I believe prayer always moves God. Sometimes we can't begin to understand that, with his great omnipotent mind, we don't know what direction his plans will take us, or how He is working behind the scenes. As you say, he has a different timetable than we do.
We have to step out in blind faith, because as the quote goes 'His way is safer than the known way,' which means that our 'logical' minds don't think the same way as God does.
IP: Logged |
|
|
trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358
|
posted
Does prayer move God?
That is an important question, and one that should be pondered with a little...well, prayer.
If God is sovereign, and He is...if God is all-knowing, and He is...if God knows everything from beginning to end, and He does...then why pray, and does it have any effect anyway?
There are some truths that I know I will never be able to figure out while I am trapped in this fleshly body of mine. The seemingly contradictory truths of predestination/election, which states that God first chose us believers before we chose Him, and the truth that we have to be born again with the faith of believing (that Jesus was God in the flesh and died to atone for our sins) and have the responsibility of receiving and accepting the truth before we are saved, are truths that are sometimes hard to reconcile. But they remain truths nonetheless.
Sometimes, in the course of trying to figure everything out, (which I think is wonderful...it usually means you are seeking God and studying the Word!), we can get dangerously off track by forgetting the very thing that God wants from us: Our faith and belief that he alone is in control. There is an important scripture verse in 1 Chronicles 5:20 which ends,
"He (God) answered their prayers, because they trusted in him."
Wow! It is a simple sentence but don't let it so casually slip by...read it again. And again.
We also have to trust God? Absolutely! For how can we be walking in faith and obedience when we are not really trusting the one we are praying to? Trust means that we accept it with a joyful heart when are prayers seem to go unanswered, because God knows what's best for us. Trust means accepting that God may have a different timetable for answering our prayers than we think He should have. Trust means accepting that sometimes prayer moves God, and sometimes it does not.
Does prayer move God? I do not believe it is a simple yes or no answer. It depends both on the faithfulness of the one praying and the will of God concerning the situation.
The Bible is full of examples (such as Jeremiah 26:3-13) where God is showing that He is, at times, leaving the outcome up to us: judgement for disbelief, grace and mercy for belief and repentance. The Bible is full of examples where prayer did change the circumstances by evoking answers from God through angels (Daniel 9:22-23) as well as bestowing wisdom for the one praying for it in faith (James 1:5-6). It is also full of examples of declared judgements that are sure to come (Revelation) and that no prayer will be able to stop.
Therefore, instead of trying to figure out the 'which came first-the chicken or the egg' questions, let us stay focused on the eternally important truths that lead to God's grace and mercy. We need to believe, we need to trust, we need to repent, and yes, we need to pray. Then the rest of God's promises and plans for us can and will be worked out for our ultimate good and His ultimate glory.
Does prayer move God?
Look at it this way...He will move closer to you when you, through prayer, move closer to Him.
So pray, pray, pray!
With the Love of our Lord and Merciful Savior Jesus Christ,
Tracy
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
