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Topic: Jesus Is YHWH In The Flesh
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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Amen Sis!!!!
John 1:
and the Word was God
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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yahsway
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HFHS, Amen my dear sister!!!!
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Terral Original >> Somebody please explain how “Christ Jesus” can be the ‘one Mediator’ BETWEEN God AND men AND be the “one God” of the same verse. The Greek does NOT allow for such an interpretation and all the verses you pasted above are used out of context.
HelpforHome >> The scripture explains this to me perfectly: Galatians 3:20 and the mediator is not of one, and God is one—
Commentary by Terral quote:
Your verse is taken out of context. Paul says,
“Why THE LAW then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained THROUGH ANGELS by the agency of A MEDIATOR, until the seed (Christ) would come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator (The Law) is not for one {party only;} whereas God is {only} one. Is the Law (The Mediator) then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.” Gal. 3:19-21.
HFHS SAYs in response: No I do not see that this verse is taken out of context. Paul is speaking here to the Gentiles - These are Guals in central Asia Minor. These people were visited when Paul was on his first missonary journey and there had been great success there in establishing the church.
Many had received Christ with whole hearted zeal. But then came Judaizers who taught them that circumcision was required to be "Christian". At this time and until 70 AD Christianity was viewed in the world as a sect of Judaism; many Jewish Christians including some of the apostles still saw that participation in the "life to come" was a result of being Hebrew - seed of Abraham- as evidenced by circumcision.
The Judaizer tried to bring Gentiles under the Law - through circumcision.
Paul explains in chapter one of this epistle that there is but ONE Gospel and it came to him direct from God on the Damscus Road.
In that Gospel - Circumcision is not the key to the Life to come/to salvation/ to righteousness.
Here is a clue... it never was. This was the very problem of the Pharisee. They believed that their blessing in this life was based on their own ability to interpret and follow the law; they believed that their claim to the life to come was based on their geneology as evidenced by circumcision.
We see that the Galatians had swollowed up the teachings of the Judaizers and had instituted Jewish festivals and ceremonies including circumcision.
Here in Chapter 3 Paul explains that the Law of the OT never saved any; Abraham himself received the blessing of God as a promise and not a work of law; Abraham himself received the GRACE of Righteousness by FAITH and belief!
Galtains 3:6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Commentary by Terral quote:
Paul is teaching on the differences between the promise (Gal. 3:18) and the Law where Mosaic Law is the agency ordained through the angels standing between God and Israel in the Old Testament.
HFHS Response: I disagree; Paul is teaching that It has always been Grace which saved man; Paul ia teaching that blessing in this life came by grace which God bestowed upon those who were obedient because they believed the HE was GOD and HIS word was true. This was true before the Law with Abraham and it was true after the law was given to the natural seed of Abraham and the adopted seed of Abraham.
Likewise - the life to come to the righteous dead was given by Grace to those who believed and demonstrated their belief by obedieince to that which God did command.
Any stranger that wanted to sojourn with Israel and live as God did command was from the beginning of the Law entitled to the promises and the inheritance given to Abraham.
The circumcison of the flesh was always about outward demonstration of the circumcision of the inner heart. Those who did not get this were not justified though they be circumcised. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
These Gentile Galatians Paul says are the seed of Abraham because they have the faith of Abraham...
Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
You will note also that this is not something that was unseen in the OT... this is not something that was revealed only to Paul... this dispensation of grace to the gentiles was stated in the OT and Galations 3:8 is a direct opposition to Pauline dispensationalism...
Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Commentary by Terral quote:
Paul is teaching on the differences between the promise (Gal. 3:18) and the Law where Mosaic Law is the agency ordained through the angels standing between God and Israel in the Old Testament.
No! The Mosaic Law is not the one that stands between God and man in Galatians 3:19 as mediator!
Moses is the mediator - Moses is a Typology of Christ that is yet to come - The natural before the spiritual -
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed (Christ)were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
The covenant was with Abraham - and the seed of Abraham that is Christ. The seed of the Woman. It was confirmed in Abraham and in Christ this covenant...
Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
430 years of Mosaic Law cannot add on thing to it or take one thing from it. It was a promise made by God with Abraham and Christ would bring it to fullfilment.
Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
The inheritance promised to Abraham and to Christ is promised and not changed by the Law.
Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
The Law never saved a single soul. Every soul that was ever justified in the 430 years of Mosaic Law, was justified by Grace that was bestowed upon them by God who accounted their obeidience as faith.
Galatians 3:19 ¶ Why, then, the law?
The Answer:
Galatians 3:19................on account of the transgressions it was added
For a specific time:
Galatians 3:19...............till the seed might come to which the promise hath been made,
Galatians 3:19-20........................having been set in order through messengers in the hand of a mediator— and the mediator is not of one, and God is one—
The Law made sin to be sin; that man would see that he was unable to fullfil the expectations of the law without faith... then when Christ was come the object of that faith was manifest.
The Law was never a mediator. There is ONE Mediator - Christ. Moses was a type - an example in the natural to show us that Christ is the ONE and ONLY mediator between God and man.
You terral then say how can Christ be both mediator that stands between God and man; and also be God.
To you I say that none other than God could have been mediator between God and man except God. No one else but God could span the breech that Sin caused. No one else was perfect/ Good/ God.
The scripture says the FULNESS of the GODHEAD dwelt bodily in Christ. Can we even conceive the FULLNESS OF the Godhead?
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The biggest clue here is that the Seed (Christ) had yet to come and Israel was kept under the ‘tutor’ (Gal. 3:23-25) until faith finally came with Christ. You are replacing Mosaic Law and the Mediator between God and Israel with the ‘one Mediator’ (Christ Jesus) of 1Timothy 2:5, while pretending those values represent the same thing. Therefore, your original premise is wrong from the very start and the remainder of your case is supported by this false hypothesis.
Replacing? No. The Law was never mediator- show me the scripture that says the Law was mediator! The scripture says that there is ONE mediator between God and man. Always has been but one; will never be any other. Moses was a typeology for Christ- Deut 5:5 ; but in looking at Moses who stood between the LORD and the people, we see that man is insufficient to mediate between God and man... it required something more... It required God himself to manifest himself in the image of sinful flesh - still being God and send forth the fullness of the Godhead in the body of Jesus.
It is not I terral that has replaced the ONE mediator... you have replaced it with the Law of all things! ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif)
Terral's commentary quote:
HelpforHome >> Here we see that the position of Mediator was one that came with the shedding of blood... Hebrews 8:6 and now he hath obtained a more excellent service, how much also of a better covenant is he mediator, which on better promises hath been sanctioned,
Again, you are taking this verse of out the true context to prove something Paul is not even talking about in 1Timothy 2:5.
Are you really so full of yourself that you feel that because you do not understand my point that my point must mean I have taken scripture out of context and you must then put it in context for me?
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Hebrews 8 has to do with the New Covenant (Heb. 8:8) that God establishes between Himself and the “House of Israel and with the House of Judah.” Heb. 8:8. Christ Jesus is standing at the right hand of God (Rom. 8:34) even now making intercession for the members of the Gentile dominant “body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12), as our ‘One Mediator’ (1Tim. 2:5) between God and men. Paul is writing ‘to’ us today, while Hebrews is written ‘to’ the kingdom Jews living in the coming restored kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6+7) during the ‘times and epochs’ where all prophecy is fulfilled (Acts 3:21-26 (all things in verse 21)). The covenant God makes with the houses of Israel and Judah are part of THIS EARTH in the kingdom of Ezekiel 47+48. Does Paul even mention Judah in any of his thirteen Gentile Epistles? No. You are mixing the fulfillment of Prophecy (Hebrews – Revelation) with Paul’s ‘revelation of the Mystery’ (Rom. 16:25), while understanding neither in the proper Light.
I am mixing! If that were not so sad it would be funny. Lets look at Hebrews.. Hebrews is written TO the Hebrew Church at the time of Paul's writing - it speaks of the ones that will at some future time enter HIS rest... but it is written TO.. one who have already entered HIS rest. How you can say it is written to the Jews future is beyond me and requires you to ignore a great deal that is spoken clearly to the Hebrew Church in the first century.
Jesus is mediator for both the Gentile and the Hebrew. Jesus is the mediator that redeems us from the curse that was upon us by the very creation of a LAW that would curse all that did not follow it and yet was not given to us to follow in the first place. Galatians 3:13
He is the Spirit of Adoption by which can cry Abba Father... he is the one that makes us who was far from God estranged and apart from the promises and from the commonwealth of Israel - a people of whom HE was not God... to be a people with God.
What exactly was the covenant spoken of in Hebrews that God made with their fathers the day that he took them out of Egypt? Was it a covenant for land? For an Eartly Kingdom where they would rule the world? What exactly does the scripture say that God was covenanting with them to do?
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
It was remeberance of the covenants made with Abraham, Issac, and Jacob that caused God to harken to the cries of the Hebrews in bondage in the first place... but this is the first covenant that he would make with them...
Exodus 19: And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
It was a covenant to be their God!!!!!!! It was a covenant for them to be HIS Kingdom. This is about relationship... not land. This is something that they did not get for more than 400 years they did not get it. It is sad that today some still do not get it. A kingdom is not land... land is where a kingdom resides or takes space, but as Jesus said the Kingdom is within.. it is not meat and drink, it comes not with observation, it is about authority and sanctification in the heart... it was in the day of Moses and it is in this day. Seek thee first the Kingdom... and then, and then, and then all these things are added... be these things the clothes on your back or the land of Cannan.
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
The Pauline Dispensationalist attempt to divide the Word and they Kingdom into The first Kingdom (God's people before Christ) (the non kingdom - the gentile church) and the later Kingdom (the Hebrews after the church)
is not Biblical... there is ONE Kingdom - Those who the God's people, the seed of Abraham, some natural, some by adoption. Some lived and died before the Law and were considered righteous by grace through Faith; SOme lived and dies under the law and were considered righteous by grace through faith; some live and die now in the time of the gentiles and are found righteous by grace and faith; and some will live in the time that comes after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and among them will be some who are found righteous by grace through faith. God does not change - He is the same yesterday, today and forever.
quote:
HelpforHome Quotes >> Hebrews 12:24 and to a mediator of a new covenant—Jesus, and to blood of sprinkling, speaking better things than that of Abel!
HelpforHome Commentary > > Through the shedding of blood the Son of Man (Mary/David) became mediator -
Lord . . . Have . . . Mercy . . . Mary has nothing to do with anything pertaining to this Debate.
Mary has everything to do with it because Jesus is the Son of Man - through Mary! Jesus' geneology and claim to the throne of David is through Mary. Jesus is the SEED OF THE WOMAN.
quote:
Your Hebrews 12 quote is also the fulfillment of OT Prophecy like in Hebrews 8, which has NOTHING to do with “Christ Jesus” being the “one Mediator” between God and men in 1Timothy 2:5. How many times do Hebrews, Peter, John and James refer to our Lord as “Christ Jesus” or “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3) all combined? ZERO. You are trying to mix things together that God has put asunder . .
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There is no scriptural basis for your division of the meaning of one mediator between God and man meaning one thing in Timothy and another in the Hebrews. There is one mediator between God and man period and that mediator is Christ Jesus. He is mediator between the Jew and the Greek and the barbarian and God. ONE mediator period -ever - always.
quote:
HelpforHome Exclaims >> Before He was Mediator He was Diety.... Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
No sir. There is only “one God” (1Tim. 2:5) and “Christ Jesus” is the “one Mediator” of the same verse. Men are not given license to place the “Deity” tag on anyone they wish apart from inheriting the label of IDOLATER.
Then I guess that you call Isaiah an idolator?
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Was Tomas too an Idolator?
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
quote:
“Jesus Christ” (Rev. 1:1,2,5) is the “Son of God” (Rev. 2:18) and “The Almighty” (Rev. 1:8) is “His God and Father.” Revelation 1:6. Christ explains (John 1:18) His God and Father throughout the New Testament who “NO ONE” as ever seen.
Why do you continue to harp on this one scripture and ignore these?
John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?
quote:
For you to place the ‘Deity’ tag on the “Son of God” seen (John 1:34) by everyone is the practice of IDOLARY any way you try to cut it. Does Scripture teach that Jesus Christ (Rev. 1:1,2, etc.) truly has “His God and Father” (Rev. 1:6, John 20:17)???? Yes. Enough said . . .
You do not understand. We do not deny Jesus is the Son of God. We do not deny that Jesus is the Son of man (Mary). Neither of these things are changed by God being manifest in the flesh. THE FULNESS... not part of God... not some of God's substance, but the FULLNESS, wholeness, completeness of GOD did dwell in Christ Bodily. It is for you a problem that God could make himself to be a man and send the man forth and still be God. That is not a problem for us. Whose view does deminsh God's majesty?
What God could not do is create God.. God made man and though man was in the image of God, man was still faulty.. not good, less than God. Not God because man was created.
But the Great Wisdom of God could make God to be a man without deminishing God, and HE did do this and sent the man forth and the man that was God manifest in the flesh and in the image of Adam (sinful flesh) did live and die and was buried, but because the flesh had no sin as it was God though it looked like man, the grave could not hold it or corrupt it and God did raise it by the power of HIS spirit and through this God can also create us as new creatures and when our sinful flesh dies and corrupts it frees our spiritual Body and we can be raised and glorified... God becoming all in all.
quote:
HelpforHome Quotes >> 1 Timothy 3:16 and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety—God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!
HelpforHome Commentary >> NONE.
What is there to say? The piety of God... God's piety is absent your interpretation. There is not piety because according to you, God did not become Jesus that God could redeem us. There is no piety in your version.
quote:
The term “God” is added to the Received Text, but appears as “who” in the Critical Text.
Aye, there is the rub! The received text is sufficient for me thank you very much. Wescott and Hort had an agenda... Oh, yes, you seem to have that same agenda dont you? To deny the diety of Christ??? I favor the work of Tyndale over the work of Nestle thank you.
quote:
Either way everyone agrees that Jesus Christ is the “Son of God.” John 1:34, Rom. 1:4, Rev. 2:18. Paul teaches that “God was IN Christ” (2Cor. 5:19), which explains “God with us.” However, flesh is definitely seen and “NO ONE has seen God at ANY TIME” (John 1:18), so your use of 1Timothy 3:16 to prove your “Deity of Jesus” doctrine is also given out of context.
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Scripture >> 1 Timothy 2:5 for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
Terral Original >> One God = “The Almighty.” Revelation 1:8 = “His God and Father.” Revelation 1:6.
One Mediator = Christ Jesus = “Son of God.” Revelation 2:18.
HelpforHome’s Reply >> Indeed One God = "the Almighty - The very Revelation given to John, is the Revelation that God was manifest in the person we know as Jesus of Nazareth, Son of Man and Son of God, Christ...
HelpforHome Quotes >> Revelation 1: 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
HelpforHome’s Commentary >> Who is it that speaks here? " I am Alpha & Omega"? This is Christ that speaks... Christ who appears like unto the Son of Man, but who is the express image of the Almighty God.(Hebrews 1:3)
No sir. You are picking around the truth in order to force Scripture into saying something else. Why do you omit the verse describing “His God and Father.”??????
The Book of Revelation begins by saying:
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE HIM to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.” Revelation 1:1+2.
Scripture just told you that God gave Jesus Christ this Revelation to give to His bond-servants and you twist that into “Jesus = God.” Shame on you. However, John continues to say:
“. . . and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood -- and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to HIS GOD AND FATHER -- to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.” Revelation 1:5+6.
If Jesus Christ is God “The Almighty” (Rev. 1:8), then who is “His God and Father.”??? Shame on you again. John continues to speak of Jesus Christ’s return AND of His God and Father, saying,
“Behold, He is coming with the clouds (reverse of Acts 1:9-11) , and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:7+8.
You dont get that God the Father/ God the Almighty/ God the Spirit is not deminished by the sending forth the Son, who is GOD manifest in the flesh. There is nothing that I can say that you might get this because this is something that is made known to us by the spirit of God. I do not expect that I should convence you of something that the Spirit has not revealed to you. But my hope is that you would cease from your mis-statement of what we do believe. My hope is that you would at least understand that for us, the Father God is not in any way deminished by his sending forth the Son who IS GOD manifest in the flesh.
quote:
The three witnesses of “The Almighty” are God to come (spirit),
God is a Spirit all the time.. Do we await God now? Or do we await the second coming of Christ?
quote:
God who is (blood)
God who is - I AM - this is God in the present - God who is ALL things needed... Father who created us/ Lamb and Blood who redeemed us/ Spirit and water of life that quickens us.
quote:
and God who was (water) and NOT the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) of Matthew 28:19. Here you are trying to have it both ways.
God who was: The word... in the beginning was the WORD, the word was with God; the word was God.
quote:
We know that Jesus Christ is the “Lamb of God” (John 1:29), unless you want to say John the Baptist is a LIAR about that also. Revelation shows the relationship between the “Lord God” AND the “Lamb,” saying,
and God who was (water) and NOT the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) of Matthew 28:19. Here you are trying to have it both ways. We know that Jesus Christ is the “Lamb of God” (John 1:29), unless you want to say John the Baptist is a LIAR about that also. Revelation shows the relationship between the “Lord God” AND the “Lamb,” saying,
“. . . and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God (Rev. 1:8) who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." Revelation 7:10.
I have not called John the Baptist a liar. Your stating that I have because you do not understand how what John the Baptist said is true and remains true without negating the many scriptures and testimonies in the scripture that show that GOD was manifest in the flesh of Jesus, does not make me a liar; but your continued repeating of this lie against me does make you one and it makes you to look and sound rude and foolish to boot. Not a good witness from someone who declares to have the Spirit of the Living God living within you.
quote:
“I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty (Revelation 1:8) AND the Lamb are its temple.” Revelation 21:22.
“Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God (Rev. 1:8) AND of the Lamb.” Revelation 22:1
What does your interpretation do with the “Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty” of Revelation 1:8? You destroy Him by replacing Him with “the Lamb” our Lord Jesus Christ. You pretend that the words of Revelation 1:6 (His God and Father) do not even exist, because your motive is to prop up your “Deity of Jesus” dogma, even if that means breaking every rule of Scripture known to mankind. Replacing the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ with ANYTHING or ANYONE is not an option. This side of the Debate can point out the errors in your testimony all day long using Scripture, but your side still must repent from the practice of such things. However, you will not change anything, because your motives and intentions are to continue pushing this “Jesus = His Own God and Father” doctrine to the very end . . . .
It is not I that has a problem with the lamb and the Almighty God the Father exisiting and being one God at the same time. I understand that there could be no sacrifical Lamb sufficient to atone for the sins of man both Just and Unjust except that the Lamb were the ONLY thing in this universe that is HOLY and PURE and GOOD and without Spot of Blemish or Short coming and that is GOD alone.
You only see that your side of this debate is effective, adequate or convencing. It is none of those in my opinion. Infact I see that you have offered very little to suppoort your point. You have a handful of scriptures that you harp on at the expense of the whole of scripture and the remainder of your oration is to hurl insults at others and make presumptuous comments on the motivation of people who you do not know and cannot possible know the motivation of.
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HelpforHome >> If Jesus Christ is not the manifestation of God in the flesh, THE Diety, THE Almighty - then this benediction is a spoken in opposition to that which is propshesied in Corinthians ...
We have already shown above that you are taking everything out of the true context that God intended. Any conclusions you wish to draw from such misuse of Scripture is meaningless . . .
That is a matter of opinion. It is your opinion. I do not know who "we" is as you are the only one here that I am currently aware of that agrees that I am taking everything out of context.
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HelpforHome Quotes >> Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
HelpforHome’s Commentary >> To the Son of God Dominion forever???? Not unless the Son is God manifest in the Flesh...
LOL . . . you jump right past “His God and Father” without blinking an eye . . .
No, I did not jump past God and HIS Father. I understand that God the Father/ God Almighty is not Deminished by HIS sending forth of the Son who is GOD manifest in the Flesh. I understand that God the Almighty is able to by the power of the Spirit make himself into a man born of a woman/ a virgin/ and in the image of sinful flesh/ yet having dwelling in him the fullness of the Godhead bodily. I understand that God the almighty does not cease to exist or is in no way deminished by his ability to do this. I understand that there is still one God alone though that God may be manifest in many ways...
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HelpforHome Quotes >> 1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
HelpforHome’s Commentary >> The dominion now held in Christ is being returned to the Almighty in this verse in Corinthians... if that is truth and it is, then the benediction of Revelation of dominion of the Son for ever and ever can only be so, if Jesus is God - The Almighty.
LOL. My God man, your commentary is laughable. Paul shows the subjection of all things to the Son in 1Cor. 15:27 and then the Son Himself subjected back to God in 1Cor. 15:28, but you just remove the Son from the picture and transform Him into God.
This is proof that every word of Scripture requires accurate commentary given in the true context AND that men can twist Scripture into saying most anything they wish.
Well perhaps it is to you laughable. Let's for your sake hope that God also thinks it laughable too that he not be offended by your rudeness. I have in no way removed the son from the picture. The statement that I have done so is nonsensical. The son now has dominion/authority it is divested in HIM for this time. The scripture says and you agree above that it will be returned to the father God. I also agree.
If that is the case then it will not remain with Christ the Son for ever and ever will it? Perhaps you can explain to us how Dominion can be the Son's forever and ever when clearly the Son returns it to the Father in Corinthians???
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Jesus Christ (Rev. 1:1,2,5) is the “Son of God” (Rev. 2:18) and “The Almighty” (Rev. 1:8) is “His God and Father.” Revelation 1:6. This is far to simple for you to be stumbling around saying something else . . .
Do you ever get around to answering the “mesites” (Mediator) question of 1Timothy 2:5??? How can Christ Jesus be the ‘one Mediator’ between God and men AND be the ‘one God’ of the same verse? No. There is no reason to quote me and run around the subject and write about something else entirely.
You really do have a huge ego problem dont you? Do you think that your so called debate is furthered by your simply dismissing everything that you do not agree with as not applicable/ laughable or some other insult? I have addressed the question of mediator several times. It is not and will not likely ever be in a way that you feel is satisfactory however that does not mean that I have not adressed it, nor does it prove that your side of the debate is correct.
Jesus is the Lamb of God; Jesus was the Lamb of God in the Day that Adam sinned; Is Jesus less the Son of God because he is a Lamb? Is He a Lamb, which is a four legged mammal or is HE a man? He is the Expressed Image of the Almighty God that is a Spirit... yet he appears as the Son of Adam in the image of Sinful flesh.
There needed to be a mediator between God and Man... so God who is IAM sent a mediator... but who could mediate for God? No one... so God manifest GOD in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth the Seed of the Woman (Mary) and the Legal and geneological Heir to David's throne - The Son of the Living God - God manifest in the flesh.
God does not cease to be father for having done this... it is because he is Father/ Almighty/ I AM/ that it is possible that HE can do this. HE is our redeemer/ Savior/ Counsellor/ Proivider/ Healer/ teacher/ ALL that we NEED.
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Terral Original >> Replacing our “one God” with His Only Begotten Son (John 3:16) is just one form of IDOLATRY practiced by men today.
Worshiping Christ who is not God is Idolatry...
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
quote:
HelpforHome >> This is only true if you do not understand that mystery - this is only true if you think that that God the Father/ God the Son/ God the Spirit are three Gods and we do not believe this. GOD the Almighty is ONE GOD who has ministered to and dispensed HIS mercy and Grace to mankind in three administrations .... Father/ Son/ Holy Ghost.
You just said “The Almighty” is the God to come, God who is and God who was of Rev. 1:8. Now you are saying that He is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit of Matthew 28:19. Your own testimony is a walking contradiction, as you are trying to transform Jesus Christ (Rev. 1:1,2,5) into His OWN “God and Father.” Rev. 1:6. The “His” in that phrase is Jesus Christ in case you are totally unaware . . . There is no such phrase as “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit” used in Scripture. That is your man-made concoction . . .
If so, then it was first concocted by the man Paul:
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
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HelpforHome >> Jesus said: John 10:30 I and the Father are one.’
Jesus did not say “I am God.” Where does Jesus say “I and The Almighty” are one?
So, is then the Father not the Almighty???? Please can you really be so blind that you cannot see how nonsensical this statement above is? Your answer to Jesus saying that The Father and I are one is "He did not say I and the Almighty are one" ????? Is the Father not the Almighty???? Perhaps not if the spirit that speaks is Antichrist!
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That would make the Son ‘one’ with ‘God to come, God who is and God who was.’
Marantha! Yes Indeed it would and it does thank you so much for your confirmation. The fact that you get this and yet you still deny the diety of Christ speaks volumes to the subject of willing ignorance. I have read volumes and volumes of your posts here and I tell you that this is a Balaam's *** Moment! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif) God has a phenominal way of having those who would curse speak exactly what HE would have them say!!!
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Rev. 1:8. How is Christ the Lamb in the center of the throne (Rev. 7:17) of Revelation and the “Lord God” of the same verse at the very same time? Rev. 21:22, 22:1?? Good Luck explaining that one . . .
This is getting redundant so I hope you wont mind that I use a little redu7ndancy myself: Paul explains it:
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
quote:
HelpforHome >> This does not say that I and the Father are in one accord... this says I and the Father are ONE in Number. If one cannot understand this; one cannot begin to understand what Paul taught when Paul taught that we are THE ONE BODY OF CHRIST though we be many members.
Lord . . . Have . . . Mercy . . . Paul separates God from His Son throughout his Epistles, just like he does in 1Timothy 2:5.
“For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you . . .”. Rom. 1:9.
“For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.” Romans 5:10.
“For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh.” Romans 8:3.
“. . . Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.” Romans 8:34.
“God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” 1Corinthians 1:9.
How many verses would you like me to quote that all show the differences between God AND His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord?
The problemn here is not that I do not understand that the Son is not the Father. The problem is that you do not understand that the Son and the Father are ONE God.
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The Almighty of Revelation 1:8 HAS NO GOD and is the SON OF NOBODY. Jesus Christ is called the ‘Son of God’ from Matthew – Revelation and you are calling Him EVERYTHING BUT the “Son of God.” John 1:34. That is even with His own testimony that He is most certainly the SON OF GOD (Rev. 2:18).
Oh yes on this we agree; you see this is the revelation of Christ. Who Jesus really is.. this is the revelation of Christ.... God who was the word; God who is I AM; God who is coming - Christ in Glory with eyes fo fire and feet of fine polished brass.
The Almighty is GOD and has no God; The Almighty is Son of No One. The Almighty has a Son... That Son is the manifestation of the Almighty God in the flesh and HE is called Son of God and Son of Man. Still He is the Almighty manifest in the flesh.
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If you are right (not), then John the Baptist is a liar (John 1:34) and Peter (Matt. 16:16) and Christ Himself (John 10:36, Rev. 2:18). My money is on all the combined witnesses God sent to testify about the true identity of His Only Begotten Son (John 3:16).
No, There is nothing that I have said that makes John the Baptist to be a liar! John the Baptist did not lie.
John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
Peter did not lie:
Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jesus did not lie:
John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
I especially liked this one: Jesus did not lie:
Revelation 2:18 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Who speaks to the churches and calls himself the Son of God?
Revelation 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
This is Christ: This is the same Christ that speaks in Revelation 8: This is the Revelation given to John.... Jesus the Son of Man and Son of God is the Almighty God Alpha and Omega:
Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
This is God to come...
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WhiteEagle
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Terral
Elohim in Genesis is a plural form of the Hebrew for God. God said Let "us" make man in our image.
IIt says "In the beginning Elohim (God pleural) created..."
John chapter 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."
It doesn't get any plainer than that.
God is One. He is beyond our human reasonings. You seem to be putting God's attributes in your own little box of impossibilities.
God is many faceted and the Son emananated from the Father and the Holy Spirit emanates from the Son. They all are ONE GOD.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Terral:
. Your “God the Son” doctrine is NOT Scriptural. Please try again . . . In Christ,
Terral
Ok Terral, without bouncing around behind an intellectual smoke screen, please interpret the following scriptures.I don't want to hear the word mediator,and please don't quote any other scripture. Focus.
1 John 4:15
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.
1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
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epouraniois
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Terral rubukes:
quote:
Scripture calls Christ the “Only Begotten Son” (John 3:16) and you transform that into “God Almighty” yourselves.
Jesus Christ is the ‘Son of God.’ John 1:34.
When God speaks through a chosen vessel, it is not the vessel speaking, it is God (2Pe 1:19-21).
In this case, it is God the Son. God the Son said:
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ...8 ...the Almighty.
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
On Christ:
Eph 1:21 Far above all...and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come
Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at naught of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Terrel says (bold by me HFHS) quote:
HelpforHome:
HelpforHome Quotes >> Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
HelpforHome’s Commentary >> They did not crucify OUR Lord Jesus because he claimed to be the Son of the Living God... They crucified him because he claimed things of himself that could only be claimed by God.
That is not true. Christ claimed to be the ‘Son of God.’ John 10:36.
“. . . and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross." Matt. 27:40.
“The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God." John 19:7.
Scripture calls Christ the “Only Begotten Son” (John 3:16) and you transform that into “God Almighty” yourselves.
Jesus Christ is the ‘Son of God.’ John 1:34.
In Christ,
Terral
They did not crucify Him because He claimed to be the Son of God. I did not deny that he claimed to be the Son of God; I said that they did not crucify him for this claim. They crucified himn because they perceived that he claimed things that only God himself could claim...
Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Jesus did say that He was the Son of God. Jesus is the Son of God. I do not debate this. Jesus is the Son of the Living God! Amen, this was the reason they mocked him.
The believed that He claimed things of himself that could only rightly be claimed by God... this was blasphemy. Then when they persecuted him, they mocked him for claiming that he was the son of God because they believed that if he were the Son of God, God would have saved him and they perceived that he was smitten by God.
Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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All I know BA is that there is a Greek word for being of one mind or in one accord and that word is :
3661 omoyumadon homothumadon hom-oth-oo-mad-on’
A unique Greek word, used 10 of its 12 New Testament occurrences in the Book of Acts, helps us understand the uniqueness of the Christian community. Homothumadon is a compound of two words meaning to "rush along" and "in unison". The image is almost musical; a number of notes are sounded which, while different, harmonise in pitch and tone. As the instruments of a great concert under the direction of a concert master, so the Holy Spirit blends together the lives of members of Christ’s church.
This is not the word that Jesus used when he said the Father and I are One. The word Jesus used in this case is the same word "one" that he used in this case below:
Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
They did not crucify OUR Lord Jesus because he claimed to be the Son of the Living God... They crucified him because he claimed things of himself that could only be claimed by God.
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BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers writes quote:
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.’
This does not say that I and the Father are in one accord... this says I and the Father are ONE in Number
John 17
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your own name those whom You have given me, that they may be ONE, as we are.
helpforhomeschoolers, you said quote:
This does not say that I and the Father are in one accord... this says I and the Father are ONE in Number
If it is not about accord, but about being One in Number, then does that mean that "we also will altogether be just One in Number with God and His Son", seeing as how Jesus said:[quote]John 17
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your own name those whom You have given me, that they may be ONE, as we are.
I therefore think Jesus was referring to oneness in accord, not to oneness in number when Jesus said:[quote]John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Tarrel says: quote:
Somebody please explain how “Christ Jesus” can be the ‘one Mediator’ BETWEEN God AND men AND be the “one God” of the same verse. The Greek does NOT allow for such an interpretation and all the verses you pasted above are used out of context.
The scripture explains this to me perfectly:
Galatians 3:20 and the mediator is not of one, and God is one—
Here we see that the position of Mediator was one that came with the shedding of blood...
Hebrews 8:6 and now he hath obtained a more excellent service, how much also of a better covenant is he mediator, which on better promises hath been sanctioned,
Hebrews 12:24 and to a mediator of a new covenant—Jesus, and to blood of sprinkling, speaking better things than that of Abel!
Through the shedding of blood the Son of Man (Mary/David) became mediator -
Before He was Mediator He was Diety....
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
1 Timothy 3:16 and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety—God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!
1 Timothy 2:5 for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
quote:
One God = “The Almighty.” Revelation 1:8 = “His God and Father.” Revelation 1:6.
One Mediator = Christ Jesus = “Son of God.” Revelation 2:18.
Indeed One God = "the Almighty - The very Revelation given to John, is the Revelation that God was manifest in the person we know as Jesus of Nazareth, Son of Man and Son of God, Christ...
Revelation 1: 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Who is it that speaks here? " I am Alpha & Omega"? This is Christ that speaks... Christ who appears like unto the Son of Man, but who is the express image of the Almighty God.(Hebrews 1:3)
If Jesus Christ is not the manifestation of God in the flesh, THE Diety, THE Almighty - then this benediction is a spoken in opposition to that which is propshesied in Corinthians ...
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
To the Son of God Dominion forever???? Not unless the Son is God manifest in the Flesh...
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The dominion now held in Christ is being returned to the Almighty in this verse in Corinthians... if that is truth and it is, then the benediction of Revelation of dominion of the Son for ever and ever can only be so, if Jesus is God - The Almighty.
God The Almighty gives HIS glory to NO ONE, and YEt Christ is the Glory of God!
quote:
Replacing our “one God” with His Only Begotten Son (John 3:16) is just one form of IDOLATRY practiced by men today.
This is only true if you do not understand that mystery - this is only true if you think that that God the Father/ God the Son/ God the Spirit are three Gods and we do not believe this. GOD the Almighty is ONE GOD who has ministered to and dispensed HIS mercy and Grace to mankind in three administrations .... Father/ Son/ Holy Ghost.
Jesus said:
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.’
This does not say that I and the Father are in one accord... this says I and the Father are ONE in Number.
If one cannot understand this; one cannot begin to understand what Paul taught when Paul taught that we are THE ONE BODY OF CHRIST though we be many members.
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epouraniois
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`And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ' (Col. 3:23,24).
The goal of our salvation, and the hall mark of the new man is revealed in the privilege of access, this found by the expression of our acceptance:
`For through Him we (the) both have access by one Spirit unto the Father' (Eph. 2:18).
Are we to then argue that the Spirit is not God?
We are fully aware? that in this verse, as in others, the Father is not alone in the transaction of grace. Here for example is a verse which must be referred to under the three headings
(1) The Father - to Whom access is granted;
(2) The Son - through Whose sacrifice this access is alone possible, and
(3) The Spirit - in Whom `the both' now made one, draw nigh.
Prayer to the Lord Jesus Christ Himself is rare in the Scriptures is freely admitted. Take Stephen, being (Acts 7) stoned to death, and to whom a vision of Christ pertains. Prayer directly to the Lord Jesus - instead of honouring Him from whence the manifestation came, in reality and in truth - sets aside the necessity for His present mediation at the right hand of God. He Himself taught His disciples to say `Our Father'.
The unity of the Spirit which the Church of the Mystery is enjoined to keep is another passage which testifies to the three persons in the Godhead, one Spirit, one Lord, one God and Father of all (Eph. 4:6).
In this place, limited by time, material, and language, we find our appreciation in the fact that God so loved, that He humbled Himself in that the great God and our Saviour so loved that we find Him in His Condescension, His stooping down that He might be lifted up even as the serpent was lifted up, that all that see might have life through His name.
And His name we recall, is above the highest name, where we find the highest name in Scripture applies to God, Jehovah Elyon El. And will He reveal a new Name once we are resurrected, For he must reign, till...is manifest that he is excepted...then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Not that the Father be all in all, not that the Holy Spirit be all in all, but the return of the image of God is that God may (once again) be all in all.
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epouraniois
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Terral, are you sure that it is everyone else who must prove to you what the Bible so clearly depicts and states, rather than being you who must prove that God gave His glory to another and therefore is in err of His own intent and words which cannot lie?
If you are awaiting your understanding of this to first arrive before belief in that God was manifest in the flesh, then you will never know until resurrection power overtakes you, that Christ is Lord, and there is only One Lord. It is by faith that the Lord reveals, not by man's understandings. Revelation just doesn't come by man's understanding, or by study, but by faith, and that faith must rest in Christ.
`Who, being in the form (morphe) of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form (morphe) of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men' (Phil. 2:6,7).
`Having abolished in His flesh the enmity' (Eph. 2:15).
`In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy' (Col. 1:22).
`For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily' (Col. 2:9).
Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Does John in his Gospel, or Paul in Hebrews teach that the world was made by Him, or that the heavens are the work of His hands? Colossians tells us that `by Him all things were created, that are in heaven and that are in earth'. Is it the testimony of other Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, Ephesians 4:13 places `the knowledge of the Son of God' as the goal of the faith. Is it the testimony of other epistles that this same Jesus is Lord? Philippians 2:9-11 reveals the fact that the Saviour is highly exalted and that one day every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Is He the Saviour? Philippians 3:20 says we look for Him as such. Is He Master? Believing masters upon earth are reminded of the title of the Lord in
Ephesians 6:9 and Colossians 4:1. The glory of these prison epistles is the exalted Lord, and they who believe and hold to their teaching cannot help but bow in His presence and say with perhaps fuller meaning than did Thomas, `My Lord and my God'. The Lordship of Christ is most fully testified in these prison epistles. The central feature of the sevenfold unity of the Spirit is the `One Lord' (Eph. 4:5). There is a distinct recognition of the Lordship of Christ in the change over from doctrine to practice in Ephesians. In chapter 3, where the doctrine of the epistle is still in progress, Paul calls himself `The Prisoner of Jesus Christ' (Eph. 3:1), but the next time he refers to himself under that title is in the practical section with its exhortation to walk worthy, and there we find the words `The
Prisoner of the Lord' (Eph. 4:1).
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Lars7
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The Deity of Christ
The thought of an eternal God being born may seem to be a contradiction of terms, but when one studies the God-man, the Lord Jesus Christ, insurmountable evidence supporting this truth manifests itself upon the pages of Holy Writ. The teachings of Christ's deity must be an accepted truth if one is to enter the eternal home of the redeemed.
John, in his first epistle, makes this dogmatic assertion: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) (1 John 1:1,2). There is no doubt that the One John saw, heard, and touched was that Eternal Life which was with the Father.
In chapter 2, verse 22, of this same epistle, John goes on to say, Who is a liar but he that denieth...the Father and the Son. When one denies that Christ is the eternal One who came to earth clothed in human flesh, this skeptic or doubter immediately is classified as a liar and an antichrist. Since no liar or antichrist may enter the presence of God in that condition, it is abundantly clear that the one who denies the eternity of Christ is lost.
In 1 John 4 another warning is presented. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. How does one recognize the false prophets? Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist (verses 1-3). Since spirits refers to teachers or preachers, the apostle is saying that preachers denying the doctrine of God coming in the flesh are preachers or teachers possessed by the spirit of Antichrist. God wrote it. I only quote it, but I believe it.
Then John states in chapter 5, verse 1, Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. Messiah, translated Christus or Christ means "the Sent One". Since He was sent from the Father, the conclusive proof is that He already existed. If He preexisted His mission to earth, He did not begin in Bethlehem's manger. The teaching of the Holy Bible is that He eternally existed as God, the second member of the Trinity, and came to earth to be clothed with a body containing blood so that He might die for sinners. Is He really God? Did He really exist before His birth upon earth? What does the Holy Spirit state in the Word of God?
Christ's deity in the Old Testament
Isaiah 9:6 states, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder. This prophet speaks about Christ's incarnation and humanity in the phrase a child is born and about His eternity and deity in the other phrase a son is given. Incarnation comes from the Latin words in and carnis, meaning "flesh" or "in the flesh". Thus, at this incarnation or coming in the flesh, He was the child born. However, as the son given, He always existed -- uncreated and unborn.
Micah 5:2 states, Whose [His] goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. This again points to the uncreated, eternal Son of God. Psalm 45:6: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. This great Old Testament scripture, addressed to God, is about the Lord Jesus Christ. Who said so? The greatest authority in heaven and earth -- Jehovah, the Father. Prove it? I will!
In Hebrews 1:8 we find Jehovah God of the Old Testament speaking: Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, 0 God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Isn't this fantastic? The Father calls Christ "God" for ever and ever. Followers of Jehovah would be wise to listen to His voice and give Christ the glory due His holy name. God had His Son with Him from all eternity past. Christ was present when the human race was created. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were involved in Genesis 1:26 when God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. The pronouns us and our speak of a plurality or trinity of personages. This same Christ was present when the earth was formed and set into motion. Proverbs 30:4: Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? The Son is present in the Old Testament scriptures hundreds of years before His human birth occurs in the New Testament. Rational, logical contemplation makes one realize that He preexisted as God, the Son.
Christ's deity in the New Testament (The Trinity)
The title of "God" is given to our Saviour on numerous occasions. Matthew 1:23 declares, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. In the first chapter of John, Christ is called "the Word." Verse 14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. The only member of the Trinity who became flesh was Christ. Since the term Word is synonymous with Christ, as has just been proven, let's put the term Christ in place of Word in John 1:1-3 and see the results. In the beginning was [Christ], and [Christ] was with God, and [Christ] was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by [Christ]; and without [Christ] was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:10 states, He [Christ] was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Now we have just heard from the Author of this book, the Holy Spirit, who said that Christ was from the beginning, that He was God, and that He created the world. Yes, Christ shared this creative ministry with the Father and Holy Spirit. This is so because all three members of the one Godhead always existed.
To prove that the Holy Spirit was also present at the time of creation, one need only study Genesis 1:1,2. In the beginning God [this is the plural noun Elohim, meaning "more than one"] created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. The combining of John 1:10 and Genesis 1:1,2 proves conclusively that the entire Trinity was present at the creation of the world.
Some scoff at the teaching of a Trinity. They say, "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible, so there can't be such a doctrine." Well, the word Bible is not found in the Bible either, but I guarantee that there is such a book -- and the teaching of the Trinity is found repeatedly throughout God's Word. Man has given the title "Trinity" to the doctrine because the meaning of the word is "three." Since there are three -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- "Trinity" is a properly designated theological term.
Let's continue our search of the scriptures concerning the deity of Christ. The Philippian jailor cried out in Acts 16:30, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Paul and Silas replied, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house (verse 31). The entire family made a commitment to this Christ and verse 34 finds them rejoicing. Why? Because they believed in God with all their house. Here is unequivocal proof that Christ is God. Compare the two verses again. Acts 16:31: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Verse 34 says he believed in God -- the Christ of verse 31.
Again we see the truth in Romans 9:5 which states, Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. First Timothy 3:16 declares, Great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, and Hebrews 1:8 says, But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever. This is Jehovah God telling the world that His Son is God. Never mind the book peddlers who run from door to door with their teaching of Christ being an inferior God, a little created God. Some even call Him Michael, the archangel. Jehovah knows everything for He is omniscient and all-wise, and He calls Jesus "God." I say with Paul in Romans 3:4, Let God be true, but every man a liar.
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trafield
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Terral, perhaps you have skipped over my previous posts of scripture such as the one concerning testing the spirits to see whether they are of God. I have judged you by the Word, and it shows you to have the spirit of antichrist because you do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh.
1 John 4:1-3
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
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trafield
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It seems we have some with the spirit of antichrist here. I will pray for them.
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (that Jesus is God in the flesh) is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
1 John 4:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
John 1:1-2
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
John 8:58
"I and the Father are one."
John 10:30
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BORN AGAIN
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Caretaker writes quote:
The exciting truth is that Jesus is now also a man
I'm not so sure about that.
I think Jesus was the Son of man only for the period that He had to be the second Adam and pay for our sins as the Son of man or second Adam.
After His resurrection, the Son of man period ended and He is now back forever to His glorified condition?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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Caretaker
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For any who might be confused by Terral's false theology, and denial of the clear reading of scripture.
Jesus is God
Jesus Christ is most definitely God. He created Adam and Eve, the first man and woman, in his image. He is the Creator of the universe. The Bible says, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" (John 1:3). This includes all the stars, all the original animals and plants, and even the angels (Colossians 1:15-17).
It is important not be confused. God did not create Jesus. Jesus is God, and he has always existed.
Jesus proved that he is God by doing many things that only God could do. These are called miracles. He made dead people alive. He walked across a great lake. He made blind eyes see perfectly again. He healed deadly diseases with a word.
The exciting truth is that Jesus is now also a man, and will remain so for all eternity. He humbled himself to become like one of his own creations. He chose to become a man to help us in an extremely important way. This amazing event happened about 2-thousand years ago. The results have changed the world forever.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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BORN AGAIN
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Terral, it seems to me that anyone who can ascend into the clouds while the disciples are looking at him going up is not exactly human, right?
Acts 1:9
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up and a cloud received him out of their sight.
I mean, what do you call someone who can do that?
And if you say you call him the "Son of God", does that mean he is divine, or only semi-divine, or houdini, or only human, or how exactly do you see that?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
I take Terral's statements to mean that Yeshua is not diety.
Thanks for picking me up, as that is what I meant to convey, yet failed miserably.
Biblically, it is Jehovah that John the Baptist was making straight the way for Him to come, Jehovah whose hands and feet were pierced, &c, ad infinitum.
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yahsway
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I take Terral's statements to mean that Yeshua is not diety.
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois writes quote:
I took Terral's statement to mean the Son of God is not God come in the flesh.
If you/he meant that the God who came in the flesh is not the Father LORD YHWY, I agree. But if you/he meant that the Son of God was not "equally God" like His Father YWHY in terms of substance and abilities, then I disagree.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
brother Terral writes quote:
When do you people start agreeing with these witnesses that Jesus Christ is the “Son of God?”
I don't know that people here are denying that Jesus is the "Son of God."
The LORD YHWY God of Israel will always be YHWH the Father.
And Yahshua is the Son of God (of YHWY) and the two will always be two separate Persons.
However, what I am saying is that the substance of which Jesus is made is the same as the LORD YHWH, the same way that a human son is in substance a human just like his human parents, and is not a dog or parrot.
The fact that Jesus is the Son of God makes Jesus in substance equally God as His Father YWHY, only that the Godhead has, as it were, "divided" into Two Persons (or Three if one wants to include the Holy Spirit).
That's what I'm talking about.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
I took Terral's statement to mean the Son of God is not God come in the flesh.
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BORN AGAIN
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brother Terral writes quote:
When do you people start agreeing with these witnesses that Jesus Christ is the “Son of God?”
I don't know that people here are denying that Jesus is the "Son of God."
The LORD YHWY God of Israel will always be YHWH the Father.
And Yahshua is the Son of God (of YHWY) and the two will always be two separate Persons.
However, what I am saying is that the substance of which Jesus is made is the same as the LORD YHWH, the same way that a human son is in substance a human just like his human parents, and is not a dog or parrot.
The fact that Jesus is the Son of God makes Jesus in substance equally God as His Father YWHY, only that the Godhead has, as it were, "divided" into Two Persons (or Three if one wants to include the Holy Spirit).
That's what I'm talking about.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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good collection of verses re Jesus being God. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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Joh 20:29
Jesus saith...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Joh 20:30
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
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Caretaker
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"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, BELIEVED ON in the world, RECEIVED UP into glory."
--1 Timothy 3:16
"But unto the SON he saith, 'Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom'...And, 'Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.'"
-- Hebrews 1:8, 10
"I and my Father are ONE."
--Jesus Christ, John 10:30
"...CHRIST JESUS...being in the FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
--Philippians 2:5-8
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE THREE ARE ONE."
--1 John 5:7
"... feed the church of GOD, which he hath purchased with his OWN BLOOD."
--Acts 20:28
"Hereby perceive we the love of GOD, because he LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for us...
--1 John 3:16
"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon GOD, and saying, LORD JESUS, receive my spirit."
--Acts 7:59
"For unto us A CHILD IS BORN, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."
--Isaiah 9:6
"And Thomas answered and said unto him [JESUS], My Lord and MY GOD."
--John 20:28
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
--John 1:1-4, 14
"Philip saith unto him, 'Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.' Jesus saith unto him, 'Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?''"
-- John 14:8-9
"...CHRIST, who is the IMAGE OF GOD..."
--II Corinthians 4:4
"...glory of GOD in the FACE OF JESUS CHRIST."
--II Corinthians 4:6
"GOD...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his SON...who being the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON..."
--Hebrews 1:1-3
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
1:15 WHO IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the firstborn* of every creature:
1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
*firstborn: pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term 'firstborn' is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called 'firstborn' although he was actually the youngest son.
"For in [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
-- Colossians 2:9
"...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."
--Matthew 1:23
"The voice of him [John the Baptist] that crieth in the wilderness, PREPARE ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway FOR OUR GOD."
-- Isaiah 40:3
THESE PEOPLE DID NOT UNDERSTAND THAT JESUS WAS GOD AND THOUGHT HE BLASPHEMED WHEN HE TOLD THE TRUTH.
"The Jews answered [Jesus], saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
-- John 10:33
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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