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Topic: The truth is in here
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
brother Watcher titles his Topic quote:
The truth is in here
Yes, I believe that "the truth is in here", but the truth is not all pointing necessarily in the direction that you had intended?
BORN AGAIN ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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BORN AGAIN
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Brother Watcher, I realize that as brothers go, I am probably not one of your favorite brothers, but a brother nonetheless in Christ, am I not?
Brother Watcher, I know that you are a strong advocate for the pre-trib rapture, while you know that I am not.
(BTW, it was not Christian-nice to call me a New Ager in one of your posts to the rest of the Family. You so-know I was a New Ager before but that now I am a bornagain Christian by the blood of the Lamb of God Yahshua-Jesus. Just like you, Watcher, I am an Adopted Son of the LORD God of Israel. Pleased to meet you.
You write quote:
(THE LAST DAYS OF PREPARATION)
1. Increase of false prophets and religious compromise within the church (mt 24:4-5, 10-11, 24; lk 18:8; 2 thes 2:3; 1 tim 4:1; 2 tim 3:1, 13; 4:3-4; 2 pet 2:1-3; 3:3-4)
this also occurred in the interval from about 30 A.D. to 70 A.D. quote:
2. Increase of crime and disregard of Gods law (mt 24:12, 37-39; lk 17:26-30)
Increase in crime? You don’t know this. With modern police and army forces, there is less crime than there used to be. In the days of Abraham and Sarah, a traveling camp needed many armed men to survive and not be attacked and robbed by other large camps.
Small camps were always in danger of being attacked and robbed. Crime, was rampant. To be caught alone or with a few persons in the desert meant being robbed in a few minutes, if not killed outright or left for dead without a water camel. quote:
3. Increase of wars, famines and earthquakes (mt 24:6-8; mk 13:7-8)
Actually, in modern time there has probably been a decrease in wars compared to more ancient time. In the days of city-states there was constant wars until, over time, city-states joined into country alliances and then there was war between countries; fewer of them, but fiercer. And even now there are fewer wars than then. But they do seem to be picking up again, I’ll give you that. quote:
4. Decrease in love and family affection (mt 10:21; 24:12)
You don’t know that. Love and family affection may have always been about the same as it is now. quote:
5. More severe persecution of Gods people (mt 10:22-23; 24:9-10; mk 13:13; jn 15:19-20)
Assuming that when you say “God” you mean the LORD God of Israel, God’s people have been persecuted by Lucifer-Satan from the moment Lucifer-Satan saw the LORD appear to Abram in Haran.
Genesis 12
1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
(good ending, LORD)
May the LORD God of Israel bless you and yours in this coming year 2006, brother Watcher. I may write you more about this Topic.
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epouraniois
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posted
Christ said the kingdom of heaven was 'nigh', and 'at hand', as He demonstrated His mastery over the kingdom of this world.
He told the disciples they needed to pray, 'Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven'.
Clearly there can be no kingdom when the king is rejected, and Christ says the kingdom is in heaven. The kingdom continued to be preached as being 'at hand'.
Christ did not dispute that 'all the kingdoms of the world' were Satan's to give:
Luk 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Luk 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
If the kingdom was already present, the apostles didn't seem to know anything about that. They were educated with the risen Lord for fourty days and nights, while having the eyes of their understanding supernaturally opened by the Lord Himself, and they asked:
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Christ told the Pharisees the kingdom was among them, not 'in' them as the English reads. The kingdom could not possibly be inside the people of hate, the people who's only goal was to kill their Lord so they wouldn't have to receive the kingdom.
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
During the Acts, the offer was re offered, but they did not accept it. That offer was withdrawn at the end of Acts and is presently suspended till the times of the gentiles be full.
The kingdom is not here, nor can it be within us, for we read in 1Co 15:50, 'that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God'.
The Bible also clearly teaches that Satan's kingdom will be set up before Christ returns to bring the kingdom of heaven to the earth.
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
In Revelation we read after the seventh trumpet sounds:
Rev 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.
When God sets up His kingdom it will be self evident, all will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. The dead shall rise first.
Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Satan teaches that the kingdom is within you, that you can bring this kingdom to reality and become as gods. That is what is taught in the Masonic schools of thought. The kingdom is not inside of anyone, for when Christs' kingdoms are set up, there will be no more death, no more sorrow, and all the things of God.
This we do not have. Satan's kingdom will be accepted as the kingdom of God when Satan shows himself to be God and indeed, deceives the whole world.
Only 144,000 Hebrews out of the tribes will not be deceived. Only the elect of the church of the one body will not be deceived.
All others shall be deceived.
They will not be looking for Christ to come.
They will believe Him to already be here.
For them, Christs' coming will be as a theif in the night. The overcomers are the ones who continue to 'watch' and are not first 'taken'.
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Tennessee Elijah
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Thank you very much for your contributions to this ongoing debate between Christians. God wants us to "seek first the Kingdom" -- in everything we do.
It is important that we understand the reality of our circumstances. Each person must choose to stand with either God or Satan in this war between good and evil. The Kingdom of God came when Jesus came to be baptized by John. When the Master ascended into Heaven, the Kingdom remained with us in the form of the Holy Spirit -- the Comforter.
Verses we have read a thousand times:
John knew "Jesus" is the King of the Kingdom.
"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 3:1&2
The "King" is at the right hand of the Father in Heaven -- and we have access to His throne through our secret prayers.
"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." Matthew 6:9-13
The Kingdom is as close as our hands are to our body in this present life. Our duties as servants of the King have been made clear.
"And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Matthew 10:7&8
This encounter between Jesus and His tormentors lets us know that the Kingdom is on Planet Earth -- even though the kingdom of Satan is here to compete for our devotion.
"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." Matthew 12:25-28
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DO A WEB SEARCH TO FIND JIGROP
Posts: 55 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Nov 2005
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epouraniois
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THE RESURRECTION AND HOPE IN MATT. 24 WAS OF COURSE PROPHESIED BY THE PROPHETS.
It was prophesied as far back as Genesis chap. 5 for Jude said in vs. 14-15 that "Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, behold the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints..."
THE HOPE OF MATT. 24 WAS ISRAEL'S HOPE.
The resurrection Jesus describes in Matt.24 is the hope of the New Covenant that God made with Israel.
BEFORE THE HOPE OF MATT. 24 TAKES PUCE THERE WILL BE A FALLING AWAY, THAT IS APOSTACY, AND THE REVELATION OF THE ANTI-CHRIST.
In Matt. 24:11 Jesus said
"Many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (A reference to apostasy )
And in vs. 15 He said,
'Men ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the Holy place..." (A reference to the anti-Christ Dan. 11:31)
In vs. 24 he said
"there would be false Christ's; and false prophets, and shall chew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (A reference to the Devil working miracles )
PAUL SAID THE EXACT SAME THING WOULD TAKE PLACE BEFORE THE RESURRECTION OF I THESS. 4 AND I COR. 15 WOULD TAKE PLACE.
In II Thess. 2:1 he wrote:
"Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, anti by our gathering together unto him; "that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled , neither by spirit, nor by word, nor as by letter as from us that the day of Christ is at hand."
The day of Christ in vs.2 , was his coming and their gathering together unto him in vs. 1. The Thessalonians were "all shook up" because somebody wrote then a false letter and told them it was at hand, that is, it had already taken place. Which, if it were true, they were left behind to face the wrath of IIThess.l:8-9. So Paul to assure them that He had not come, tells them in vs.3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not came, except there came a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, skewing himself that he is God.
HOPE OF PAUL'S ACTS EPISTLES, WAS THE HOPE OF ISRAEL.
In Acts 28:20 Paul told the Jews in Rome "For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for THE HOPE OF ISRAEL, I AM HOUND WITH THIS CHAIN.
Paul refers to the Hope of Israel 4 times in Acts.
1. In Acts 23:6 he mentions the Hope as being resurrection
2. In Acts 24:15 he mentions the hope as being resurrection
3. In Acts 26:6-8 He mentions the hope as being resurrection
4. In Acts 28:20-23 he mentions the Hope in connection with the Kingdom of God.
The Hope of Israel was to be resurrected into the kingdom of God, as a matter of fact, the only way they could get into the Kingdom of God was by resurrection.
That's exactly what Paul is showing the Corinthians in I Cor. 15 . In that chapter he is showing them how to get into the Kingdom of God, and guess what he told them had to happen for them to get in ? They had to be resurrected and changed. WHY? Because in vs. 50 he said:
"Now this I say; brethren, that flesh and blood- cannot inherit the Kingdom-of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
And in vs. 51 he told them they would all be changed, and the change would take place in resurrection. ICor. 15 and I Thess. 4 is the hope of Israel. The hope of Israel was resurrection into the Kingdom of God, which is exactly what Paul is writing about in this chapter.
You say: "How did Gentiles in that church end up with Israel's Hope?" Because in the Acts period, they were grafted into Israel the good olive tree, according to Rom.11:17. And being grafted into the tree, they partook of the fatness of the olive tree. The fatness of the olive tree were the blessings and promises made to the fathers, who were the root of the tree - Rom.15:2'7. And one of those blessings and promises WAS THEIR HOPE OF RESURRECTION.
WHEN THE RESURRECTION OF MATT. 24 TAKES PLACE, NOT ONLY WILL THE LORD DESCEND FROM HEAVEN IN THE CLOUDS WITH ANGELS AND A TRUMPET, BUT A VOICE WILL BE HEARD ALSO.
The voice is not mentioned in Matt. 24 but it is in JOHN 5:25, 28. It says
" The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"
IN 1 THESS. 4 AND I COR. 15 WHEN THE LORD DESCENDS FROM HEAVEN INTO THE CLOUDS WITH ANGELS AND THE SOUND OF A TRUMPET, A VOICE WILL BE HEARD
In I Thess.4:16 Paul said " the Lord shall descend fray heaven WITH A SHOUT 0
The shout is for the dead ; the trumpet for those alive.
IN MATT.24 WHEN JESUS COMES WITH HIS ANGELS ,AND A SHOUT AND THE SOUND OF A TRUMPET, HIS ELECT WILL BE GATHERED TOGETHER
Verse 31 says
" They shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other ( Also read Mk.13:27)
IN I COR. 15 AND 1 THESS. 4 WHEN JESUS COMES WITH A SHOUT, A TRUMPET, AND ANGELS, HIS ELECT WILL BE GATHERED TOGETHER
In II Thess. 2:1 Paul wrote "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM.
And those that he gathers together here , are his elect also according to I Thess.l:4, and II Thess.2:13.
IN MATT. 24 WHEN JESUS COMES IN THE CLOUDS , IT WILL BE SUDDEN AND UNEXPECTED
In verse 42 Jesus said " Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this , that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh ."
In these verses Jesus compares his coming .with a thief breaking into a house . A thief comes suddenly and unexpected . He comes in and then gets out as fast as he can WITH THE VALUABLES AND JEWELS HE CAME AFTER .
In these verses , Jesus Christ is as a thief breaking into a house . The house is this world that the devil is the god of (Matt.12:29). As a thief breaks into a house , to take something of value out; His coming is to take his elect out of this world , so that he can destroy it along with the devil (II Pet.3:10).
THE RESURRECTION IN I THESS. 4 AND I COR. 15 WILL BE SUDDEN AND UNEXPECTED ALSO.
In ICor. 15:52 Paul said: "IN A MOMENT , IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, at the last trump: For the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised..."
When Paul says: "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye," he is showing you HOW FAST that resurrection will take place. But when he says "AT the last trump", he is showing you WHEN it will take place. It will be sudden and unexpected, just like the hope of Matt. 24.
WHEN THE RESURRECTION OF MATT. 24 TAKES PLACE, BELIEVERS WHO ARE ALIVE WILL BE CAUGHT UP WITHOUT DYING.
This fact is brought out by the Lord in John. 11. In John 11, Lazarus who was Martha's brother died and she wants Christ to raise him from the dead. And Jesus said unto her in vs. 23 "Thy brother shall rise again". Martha saith .unto him, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." Jesus said unto her: "I am the resurrection; and the life: he that believeth in me; though he were dead, yet shall he live. AND WHOSOEVER LIVETH AND Believeth IN ML SHALL NEVER DIE.. BELIEVEST THOU THIS?"
WHEN THE RESURRECTION OF 1 THESS. 4 AND I COR. 15 TAKES PLACE BELIEVERS WHO ARE ALIVE WILL BE CAUGHT UP WITHOUT DYING.
In I Cor. 15:51 Paul said: "I shew you a Mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP, but we shall be changed _"
The Mystery of I Cor. 15:51 is not the resurrection, but it's the fact that there will be some caught up without dying. But this is a mystery hidden in the Scriptures, for in vs.55 Paul quotes Isa. 25:8 which says "O Death where is thy sting?" In other words, in the Old Testament Scriptures, it was written down that somebody was going to get out of this life without experiencing the sting of death.
This is what Jesus is referring to in John 11 when he said "He that liveth and believeth in me shall never die." That was the only time that Christ mentioned that fact to anyone, and prior to Paul it was the general consensus that by the time that resurrection took place all believers would be dead . But God opened up the scriptures to Paul and he was the first man to fully understand that fact and write about it. But, nevertheless, it was in the Old Testament Scriptures, even though concealed.
(Isn't it wonderful how the Bible opens up when you just believe what the words say and ignore what the preachers say?)
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Watcher
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Outta all the rubbish you posted, I will quote this one sentence.
quote:
The church God is now building, in fact and in truth, is NEVER said to look for His coming.
WHAT????? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
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epouraniois
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quote:
One of the most significant differences between the two passages relates to the Church.
This cannot be true, let me say why.
For one thing, this was the first letter written during the Acts. During the Acts there was no gentile church hope being built or given. These were Hebrews who were speaking about things they knew of the kingdom of the OT. Their hope was a kingdom hope. Any gentile who may have been present here was stading outside the Tabernacle, out beyond the middle wall of partition to get some crumbs from Israel's table.
Only after Israel had heard, all Israel, and rejected this kingdom hope did God send Paul forth to reveal the church. The church era we live in now is one where the individual from every nation comes to the knowledge, rather, the acknowledgment of the truth which is in Chirst Jesus, the Lord.
There is no time during the Acts where the gentile church was the teachings. Gentiles would gather together during the Acts to gain a glimpse, but they had no hope apart from Israel's kingdom, which was so close that they were concerned about their dead departed dear family members who had served as the twelve tribes for all those centuries.
The church God is now building, in fact and in truth, is NEVER said to look for His coming. An entirely different word is used, depicting an entirely seperate hope than that of Israel's church during the Acts, for their church people during that time living when they rightfully could expect the day of the Lord to occur within their very own lifetimes to bring the hope of Israel to them. That is what the day of the Lord meant during those Acts period epistles.
But everything changed at the end of the Acts. God announce He had a church for the heavenly spheres and began to build this new creation. He is building it even now.
Our church today therefore, does not look forward to the same hope that they looked forward to during their church hope. They looked for a kingdom to be established upon the earth with Christ as their king. That is the hope of their calling, and it shall be again with Israel for 144,000 of them. The book says so.
The church announced after Acts pertains to us today, and it is our church which looks to appear with Him when He appears in the superheavenlies to be seated there with Him far above all heavens of heavens as the saints in the light.
The word used for His coming to set up His earthly kingdom is called His 'parousia'.
The word used for His appearing in the heavens where His heavenly kingdom will be established is called His 'epiphaneia'.
Two totally different groups of God's children being spoken of, each with very different spheres of blessings. One sees the Lord's coming while the other appears with Him.
Look at the word 'with' Him, it is important because it is never used of those who look for His coming to the earth.
G4862
σύν
sun
soon
A primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than G3326 or G3844), that is, by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.: - beside, with. In compounds it has similar applications, including completeness.
And this follows all the prison epistles where the church is made known to be His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.
Ephesians presents the church which is HIs body and oneness is the theme. Colossians presents the church of the one body and fulness is the theme.
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epouraniois
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Yes it does present such a scene. Even the wrath is a scene of love for believers, for those who receive the truth of His understanding.
Paul is saying comfort one another with the words that when the Lord comes He will bring all their dead loved ones with Him. Now we know who are in that great cloud of witnesses at His return. It is their reletives. In the Bible there are no dead in Christ non believers. All these dead are beleivers, they are the Hebrews from Abraham, all the way to the first believers Adam and Eve and Abel.
And that is great comfort. They were so close to the resurrection that they could worry about their loved ones.
Look at what Ezekiel said:
Eze 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows , wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
That word 'pillows' above, has the meaning of cushony comfomfort. Remember what the Daniel said about the Lord's day? When they say peace and safety sudden destrction, not flying away, but sudden destruction. Nothing possitive about flying away and avoiding anything.
Eze 13:21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
KERCHIEFS:
H4555
מספּחה
mispâchâh
mis-paw-khaw'
From H5596; a veil (as spread out): - kerchief.
This finds it's fulfillment in the deception of 2nd Thess 2, and in Timothies people who heape unto themselves teachers who tell them what makes them feel good, tells them anything they want to hear because the people have itching ears. That is the meaning of it.
I am not trying to hammer on you brother. I want to to accept that this is what is written no matter what any man says. Not this man or any man.
I am asking you to prayerfully ask the Lord for the meanings of these specific verses I am showing to you.
I am trying to show you strongly where the verses are that tell us when and under what circumstance the Bible states will be the Day of the Lord.
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These preachers today have the whole world believing there is going to be two comings of the Lord by reason of a fly away doctrine that God says He is against.
Don't be fooled by that deception. Stay with what is written. Every trumpet has a sound, but only one of them has the shout of the archangel and the voice of God with Christ coming with the dead you are raised first.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
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Watcher
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Tennessee Elijah here's another verse-
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Again, it sounds like the Lord receives His kingdom when He comes.
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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Watcher
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The passage in 1 Thessalonians 4 presents a scene of love, mercy, and grace. The picture that is painted by Revelation 19 is one of vengeance and wrath.
In the Thessalonian passage, the Lord appears in the sky, but does not descend to the earth. In the Revelation account, he come to the earth. Zechariah 14 says He will return to the Mount of Olives from which He ascended into Heaven.
One of the most significant differences between the two passages relates to the Church. In the Thessalonian account, the Lord comes for the purpose of taking His Church, both the dead and living members, out of this world.
In Revelation, by stark contrast, He returns with His Church. This is indicated in Revelation 19:14 where it says that "the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean were following Him on white horses." We know these people constitute the Church, because the same group is described a few verses before (verses 7 and 8) as being the "bride" of Christ.
Thus, in Paul's description of the Lord's return, He is portrayed as coming for His Church, to deliver believers from the "wrath that is to come" (1 Thessalonians 1:10).
But in John's description, Jesus is portrayed as returning with His Church in great wrath. In Thessalonians Jesus returns as a Deliverer. In Revelation He comes back as a Warrior. In one scene He is coming to claim the righteous; in the other, He returns to condemn the unrighteous
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
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epouraniois
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Paul didn't expect to get raptured. He said the dead would rise first, that there is no way to prevent the dead from rising fist, that the Lord would come with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.
Notice it doesn't say one of the trumps, but the trump, having the article, it is a specific trumpet.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So, the dead rise first, then they meet the Lord in the air. When? When the shout and the voice of the archangel, and when the trump of God is sounded.
Which specificy trumpet does the Lord come?
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
And what happens at the last trump?
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
We see this agrees with Thess 4, the dead rise first, then what?
"and we shall be changed".
The 'we' are those alive. In order for this to be the first trumpet, then it couldn't very well be the last trumpet.
In order for their to be a rapture, there must be two comings of the Lord.
Please provide the verses showing two comings of the Lord.
All you have done is list many verses to make a confusion and say it is making sense.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion
If you really had any verses showing two comings of the Lord, you would simply post them.
But you didn't because you can't.
You can't because they are not written.
But you try because you have fallen away into the apostacy, you have failed to hold something. That something is given us here:
Even adding words like 'rapture' to the pure and Holy Word of God, clearly having no respect for that which is written, they heap confusion upon confusion hearing only what is right in their own eyes.
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers
So I will humor them using their own words, even though it is not in God's words:
II Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (the rapture)... Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
This passage tells us the "gathering together unto" Jesus, the rapture, will not occur until two other things come first. There will be the falling away-- the apostasy, the dramatic mass denial of the truth of the Word.
And most importantly, the rapture will not occur until THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED. The antichrist will come to power before the rapture.
Eze 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows (coverings of truth), wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
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Watcher
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Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
This is not down the road later, but at the time the seventh angel sounds. Armageddon has not occured yet.
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Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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Tennessee Elijah
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Please find scripture in the Bible to support or refute this: The Kingdom of God is right here right now for those who have been "born again." While a "fleshly body" is experiencing the carnality of life on this planet, a redeemed soul is experiencing the Spirituality of God's domain. In effect, some of us are inhabiting two "dimensions of reality" at the same time.
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DO A WEB SEARCH TO FIND JIGROP
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(THE LAST DAYS OF PREPARATION)
1. Increase of false prophets and religious compromise within the church (mt 24:4-5, 10-11, 24; lk 18:8; 2 thes 2:3; 1 tim 4:1; 2 tim 3:1, 13; 4:3-4; 2 pet 2:1-3; 3:3-4)
2. Increase of crime and disregard of Gods law (mt 24:12, 37-39; lk 17:26-30)
3. Increase of wars, famines and earthquakes (mt 24:6-8; mk 13:7-8)
4. Decrease in love and family affection (mt 10:21; 24:12)
5. More severe persecution of Gods people (mt 10:22-23; 24:9-10; mk 13:13; jn 15:19-20)
6. Those who stand firm will be saved (mt 24:13; mk 13:13)
7. Gospel will be preached to the whole world ( mt 24:14; mk 13:10)
8. the spirit will be poured out on Gods people (act 2:17-21, 38-39)
(THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH)
9. Believers must be prepared and wait constantly for this imminent event (mt 24:42,44; lk 12:35; ro 13:11; ph 4:5; 1 thes 1:10; 4:16-18)
10. Christ will come unexpectedly, since the time cannot be calculated (mt 24:36,42,44; 25:5-7, 13 mk 13:32-37; lk 12:35-46)
11. Christ will come to catch up believers living on the earth at this time (lk 21:36; jn 14:3; 1 the 1:10; 4:15-17; 2 thes 2:1; rev 3:10-11)
12. Believers will be delivered from the coming wrath (lk 21:36; 1 thes 1:10 ; 5:2-9; rev 3:10-11)
13. Believers living at this time will recieve transformed bodies (rom 8:23; 1 cor 15:51-54; 1 thes 4:16-17)
14. Believers who died before this event will rise and be caught up with christ (1 co 15:50-55; 1 the 4:16-17)
15. All raptured saints will be judged by christ (jn 5:22; ro 14:12; 1 co 3:12-15)
16. Believers will be judged according to their deeds (mt 5:22; mk 4:22; ro 2:5-11, 16)
17. Faithful believers will receive rewards (mt 5:11-12; lk 19:12-19; gal 6:8-10)
18. Less faithful believers will not be condemned, but will receive little or no reward (mt 5:19; 1 co 2:13-15; col 3:25)
(THE TRIBULATION PERIOD)
19. The faithful in christs churches will be kept from this time of trial (lk 21:36; jn 14:1-3; 2 co 5:2,4; php 3:20-21; 1 the 1:10; 5:8-10; rev 3:10)
20. Will be taken after the restrainer is taken out of the way (2 thes 2:6-8)
21. Will begin after the secret power of lawlessness intensifies (2 thes 2:7-8)
22. Will begin after a great rebellion against the faith occurs (2 thes 2:3)
23. The antichrist (the man of lawlessness) will appear (dan 9:26-27; 2 thes 2:3-10; rev 13:1-18; 16:2; 17:9-18; 19:19
24. Will begin with the opening of the seven seals (rev 6:1)
25. A time of worldwide distress (mt 24:21-22; rev 6-19)
26. Will last for seven years (dan 9:27)
27. False prophets will preform great signs and wonders (mt 24:24; 2 thes 2:8-10; rev 13:13; 16:14; 19:20)
28. The gospel will be preached by angels and possibly jews (rev 7:1-4; 11:3-6; 14:6-7)
29. People will be saved during these days (dt 4:30-31; rev 7:9-17; 14:6-7; 11:13)
30. Many jews will turn to christ (rom 11:25-26; rev 7:1-8)
31. Those who had opportunity to believe in Jesus before the rapture will have no further opportunity to repent (mt 25:1-12; lk 12:45-46; 2 thes 2:10-12)
32. Will be a time of persecution for all who are faithful to Jesus ( dan 12:10; mt 24:15-21; rev 6:9-11; 7:9-17; 9:3-5)
(THE GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD)
33. Last three and one-half years of "the tribulation" (dan 9:27; rev 11:1-2; 12:6; 13:5-7)
34. Will begin with the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place (the temple) (dan 9:27; 12:11; mt 24:15; mk 13:14; 2 thes 2:4; rev 13:14-15)
35. Demonic activity will increase greatly (rev 9:3-11, 14-19; 16:12-14)
36. Sorcery and witchcraft will increase greatly (1 tim 4:1; rev 9:21; 18:23; 22:15)
37. Cosmic events related to the sun, moon and stars will occur (Isa 13:9-11; mt 24:29; mk 13:24-25; lk 21:25; rev 6:12-14; 8:10, 12: 9:2)
38. Religious deceit will be widespread (mt 24:24; mk 13:6, 21-22; 2 thes 2:9-11)
39. Time of terrible suffering for jews (jer 30:5-7; rev 11:2; 12:12-17)
40. The worlds worst and most intense time of worlwide distress (dan 12:1; mt 24:21; mk 13:15-19; rev 6:9-17)
41. God will extend His wrath on the ungodly (zech 14:1-4; rev 3:10; 6:17; 9:1-6, 18-21; 19:15)
42. The apostate church will be destroyed (rev 17:16-17)
43. Two witnesses who preach the gospel and were killed will be resurrected (rev 11:11-12)
44. End of great tribulation can be known by definite signs (mt 24:15-29; 32-33; mk 13:28-29; lk 21:28)
45. Will end with the battle of armageddon and Gods full wrath on the ungodly (zeph 3:8; zech 14:2-5; rev 14:9-11; 19:17-18)
46. Christ will triumph over the antichrist and his armies (mt 24:30-31; 2 pet 3:10-13; rev 19:11-21)
(THE ANTICHRIST)
47. Ruler during the tribulation who controls the entire world ( dan 7:2-7; 24-27; 8:4; 11:36; rev 13:1-18; 17:11-17)
48. An incredibly wicked person, a "man of lawlessness" and sin (dan 9:27; 2 thes 2:3; rev 13:12)
49. Described as a beast (rev 13:1-18; 17:3,8,16; 19:19-20; 20:10)
50. Will set up an image of himself in the temple and will demand worship (dan 7:8,25; 11:31,36; mt 24:15: 2 thes 2:3-4; rev 13:4,8,12,14-15; 14:9; 16:2)
51. Will exercise miracles through the power of satan (mt 24:24; 2 thes 2:9-10; rev 13:3, 12-14; 16:14; 17:8)
52. Will have ability to deceive the nations (1 thes 2:9-10; rev 20:3)
53. Will be assisted by the false prophet ( the beast of the earth) (rev 13:11-17; 16:13; 19:20; 20:10)
54. Will kill the two witnesses who proclaim the gospel (rev 11:7-10)
55. Will attempt to kill all who do not have the mark of the beast (rev 6:9; 13:15-17; 14:12-13)
56. Will eventually destroy the religious system with which he was aligned (rev 17:16-17)
57. Will be defeated by christ when christ returns to earth to establish His kingdom (2 thes 2:8; rev 16:16; 19:15-21)
(CHRISTS GLORIOUS APPEARING FROM HEAVEN TO JUDGE AND WAGE WAR (THE SECOND COMING)
58. Christ will return with believers and His angels (2 thes 1:7-10; jude 14-15; rev 19:14)
59. Christ will gather the tribulation saints (mt 24:31; 25:31-40; 46; mk 13:27; rev 20:4)
60. Unbelievers will be unprepared for this event (mt 24:38-39, 43)
61. Christ will seperate peoples on earth (mt 13:40-41, 47-50; 25:31-46)
62. Nations will be enraged at this event (rev 11:18)
63. Saints will rejoice at this event (rev 19:1-8)
64. Christ will judge and destroy the ungodly, including the antichrist and satan (mt 13:41-50; 24:30; lk 19:11-27; rev 19:11-20:3)
65. Tribulation saints will receive rewards (mt 5:11-12; 1 co 3:12-14; gal 6:9-10; rev 20:4)
66. Tribulation saints will share in Christs glory and kingdom (mt 25:31-40; rom 8:29; 2 thes 2:13-14; rev 20:4)
(THE MILLENNIUM)
67. satan will be bound (rev 20:2-3)
68. Tribulation saints (and old testament saints) will rise from the dead (rev 20:4; dan 12)
69. The church and all martyred tribulation saints will reign with Christ (rev 2:26-27; 3:21; 5:9-10; 11:15-18; 20:4-6)
70. Christ will reign on earth over the tribulation saints alive at His coming (Isa 9:6-7; mic 4:1-8; dan 2:44; zech 14:6-9; rev 5:10, 11:15-18; 20:4-6)
71. Time span of reign will be a thousand years (rev 20:4-7)
72. Gods children will have rest (2 thes 1:7)
73. Nature will be restored to its original order and perfection (ps 96:11-13; 98:7-9; Isa 14:7-8; 35:1-2, 6-7, 51:3; 55:12-13; eze 34:25; rom 8:18-23)
74. satan will be released for a brief time at the end of the millennium (rev 20:7)
75. Will end with Christ turning over the kingdom to the Father (1 cor 15:24) and translation and resurrection of millennial saints (1 cor 15:24-27)
(THE FINAL JUDGEMENT)
76. Final battle of gog and magog (rev 20:7-9)
77. All the wicked will be raised from the dead to face judgement (jn 5:28-29; rev 20:12-15; dan 12:2; Isa 26:19-21)
78. The great white throne judgement (rev 20:11-15)
79. All Gods enemies will be put into the lake of fire (2 thes 2:9; rev 20:10; 12-15; 21:8)
(THE NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH)
80. God will destroy the present earth (ps 102:25-26; Isa 34:4, 51:6; hag 2:6; heb 12:26-28; 2 pet 3:7. 10. 12)
81. God will create a new heaven and a new earth (Isa 51:6; 65:17; 66:22; rom 8:19-21; rev 21:1-22:6; 2 pet 3:10-13)
82. God will wipe away all effects of sin (2 pet 3:13; rev 21:4, 22:3, 15)
83. New earth will become the headquarters of God (rev 21:1-3)
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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