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Topic: Let us reason together
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epouraniois
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I didn't want you to think I didn't understand the question about the Mikvah, yahsway, I do realize though, that it is extra Biblical, therefore, when the Rambam summarizes this issue: “Immersion is also a matter which must be accepted on faith... for ritual impurity is not mud or filth which washes off with water” (Hilchot Mikvaot 11:12);
then I must agree with them, that it must be accepted on faith, because we certainly cannot accept it on doctrine now can we? Not Biblical doctrine anyway.
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epouraniois
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Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him
out of = apo = away from.
apo governs only one case (the Genitive), and denotes motion from the surface of an object
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
into = eis = unto.
eis governs only one case (the Accusative). Euclid uses eis when a line is drawn to meet another line, at a certain point. Hence, it denotes motion to or unto an object, with the purpose of reaching or touching it (e.g. Matt. 2:11; 3:10. Luke 8:14. Acts 16:10).
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epouraniois
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They came up out of the river, they came up out of the water, same thing. There is nothing I can see in the Greek to indicate immersion or submersion. nothing at all.
It is a huge problem when we read into the Scriptures what is not expressly present. It causes strife amidst the group. It is better to trust the Lord, that if He meant immersion, the word was availible and the HS would have used it if that were meant. The word, or any like it, is not being employeed, therefore it is merely the traditions of men, nothing real about it.
What I am becoming increasingly aware of, is that there arnn't very many members of the church of the one body. There are many more members of the churches of this world.
What is then this one baptism of the Spirit connected with the Church of the Body of Christ?
It is the uniting by the Holy Spirit of the whole of this church with Christ Himself, the Glorious Head, in death, burial, quickening, raising and being seated in the heavenly places in Him. This is a union that can never be broken, and it unites every single member together. This is why we are asked to keep it, and guard it as we would a treasure. Unity is the great thought behind this baptism. Every member of the Body has been crucified with Christ. When He was crucified, they were crucified. They are dead with Christ; they are buried with Christ; they are quickened, made alive with Christ; they are raised with Christ, and glory of all glories, they are seated where He is seated (Eph.2:6), seated in the Heavenly places in Christ Jesus, and are looking forward to being
manifested with Christ. All this precious truth is what the one baptism of the Spirit accomplishes. If we have this we have the reality. If we have only sprinkling, or the traditional immersion in water, we have the shadow without the substance.
It seems many are settled with the shadow believing it to be the true.
Paul said he was not sent to baptize. I wonder what you would have to say to him. If the
believer has not that one baptism of Ephesians four, he is without the one that really matters.
quote:
If you read the story of Phillip and the eunuch, Phillip went down into the water with the eunuch. If it was by sprinkling only, no need to go down into the water, right? And it says they both came up out of the water.
I guess, but seems more equitable to both go down to the water rather than just one of them. If only one went down, then only one would come back up out of it.
One Baptism is ours by the operation of God Himself, (Col.2:12). The word “operation” is the word “working”. It was done by God’s working, not man’s.
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epouraniois
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The word bapto is found nine times in the law of Moses, where it is used of dipping in blood, or in oil, or in water (Exod. 12:22; Lev. 4:6; 14:6; Num. 19:18 and Deut. 33:24). While the references in the New Testament to Pharisaic TRADITIONS do not take us back to any Old Testament passage, they do indicate that baptism is in no sense a New Testament rite or custom (Mark 7:8, Luke 11:38), and the inquiry by the Pharisees of John the Baptist was not to ask the meaning of baptism, but why he baptized if he were neither Christ, Elijah nor that prophet? (John 1:25), showing clearly that baptism was no new thing.
‘Repent and be baptized every one of you ... for the remission of sins’ (Acts 2:38).
what great body of water was there at the Jerusalem temple by which this great immersion took place? Answer, there wasn't one.
‘The children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground’ (Exod. 14:22).
‘The children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea’ (Exod. 15:19).
‘He turned the sea into dry land: they went through the flood on foot’ (Psa. 66:6).
‘That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness’ (Isa. 63:13).
Scripture seems to go out of its way to impress upon us the absence of water at this time.
There is no Scriptural evidence that I am aware precsribing OT submersion in water, and without it, they would not expect some new and strange baptism, they would look forward to the one they expected, and by the words of the Pharisees, they asked John why then was he baptizing if he were not the Messiah.
Surely we do not expect Christ to remain standing in the water, no, he must come up out of it in order to get to the dry ground. Sprinkling by hyssop was the common form in the OT whether blood, or water, they were sprinkled. Is it not so?
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TEXASGRANDMA
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►Acts 8:26-40
And the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, Get up, and go toward the south unto the way that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, which is desert. And he got up and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Isaiah the prophet. Then the Spirit said to Philip, Go near, and stay close to this chariot. And Philip ran up to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, Do you understand what you are reading? And he said, How can I, except someone should guide me? And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, “He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.” And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I ask you, of whom is the prophet speaking? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached to him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came to some water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what keeps me from being baptized? And Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, you may. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stop: and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and Philip baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, and the eunuch saw him no more: but he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
they had to be under the water to come out of the water. I believe in submersion.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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epouraniois
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yes, they walked down into the water, about ankle deep i would imagine, and then they would be sprinkled, then go back up out of the water, up and out to the bank of the river.
submersion, chapter and verse please.
kingdom is within you, please provide the reasoning behind building a one verse doctrine, specifically, building a doctrine that contradicts the kingdom was at hand, and near, and besides all that, why would the kingdom of heaven be within those seeking to kill Christ while everyone else was waiting for it to arrive.
I take it you don't think the kingdom of heaven is real, just a frame of mind, is that right?
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yahsway
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epouraniois,
Do you know what a Mikvah is? A hint- It is a requiremnet for conversion and it is immersion.
Both men and women were Mikvahd. Johns Baptisim was in the wilderness. Calling those to "come out" and repent and be Mivahd. He was calling them to repentance and a sign of that conversion was to be Mikvhad in the Jordon, not at the temple. John came in the spirit of Eliyah, preparing the way for Yeshua. And that way was not found at the temple. He calls His sons and daughters to the wilderness. Thats where we are soley dependant on Him, and not by a religous system.
Mivah(Baptisim) is by Immersion. If you study on the Mikvah, you will see that each individual person immereses themselves. You might have another in the water with you as a testimony that you did go under(immersion) the water. They do not have to "dunk" you in any way(unless they lay hands on your head).There were plenty of Mikvah baths in Jerusalem and at the temple.
If you read the story of Phillip and the eunuch, Phillip went down into the water with the eunuch. If it was by sprinkling only, no need to go down into the water, right? And it says they both came up out of the water.
As far as tongues are concerned,It is given by the Spirit and as the Spirit gives the utterance. Since God is no respector of persons, and all are one in the Messiah, no male or female, whose to say that He does not pour his Spirit out with the evidence of speaking in tongues to his daughters as well as His sons?
And the Kingdom of God is within you if you are a part of the church. There will be an earthly kingdom where Yeshua will rule and reign for 1000 years and then the new heaven and new earth will be made with the New Jerusalem coming out from heaven after the 1000 year reign. The kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our Christ and He alone shall reign forevermore. He shall reign over all the earth. Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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epouraniois
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Let us reason together
As far as history is concerned, as far as law is concerned, none of us should have to be told about the importance of getting these things in their given order. Like in any book, whether history or math or science, just any old order will not do, we need to recognize the given order so that we may have truth for the times. A man named Oscar Baker once spoke about this. He said something like the following:
If we reverse the divine order, such as eating meat before the flood, and eating vegetables after the flood, we might just find ourselves with doctrines of demons. So this is one thing we must be very careful about. We cannot think for a moment that we can read these things of Paul into the past, things that had been hid from ages and from generations into those things during Acts. And that is something that is very, very commonly done.
During Acts, he was able to claim that he had preached 'none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come' (Act 26:22). To use the prison epistles during the Acts is like saying the church began at Pentecost, which is like saying it was given man to be eating meat from the beginning. They did not eat meat from the beginning, and the church of the one body was not there at Pentecost. They say it was but it is an expression that is false, rather than conceding to Biblical facts..
To try to get the church of today, the church of the one body, the church of the dispensation of the mystery into 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, or 1st and 2nd Corinthians, is just as bad as if the disciples had ignored the injunction of the Lord when He gave them command, 'BUT NOW' as concerning their provisions:
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Mat 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
Now note the progression of 'BUT NOW':
Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
So there was a change. There are people today who do not realize there was a change there, and they still preach to take no provisions as did those disciples on their first missionary journey, completely disregarding the further teachings of the Lord. Herein then the reason for all the confusion in the denominations and separations in the churches of Christendom, the various sects and isms of today. If they would just stop their mad rush and consider the word of God, take the latest instruction, their differences would disappear overnight.
But in spite of the fact that God gave a new command to Noah, there are many today who still insist on being vegetarians, and so connect themselves with doctrines of demons (Col 2:16-23). And in spite of the Lord's latest instruction as to provisions in missionary journeys, there are some today who try to follow the former instruction, so they come to spiritual poverty and want.
Most of Christians today have disregarded the 'BUT NOW' of Colossians 1, and are trying in vain to live under the instruction of a former dispensation which is past and gone. They do not realize that the kingdom was closed nineteen hundred years ago, all of it's signs and works with it. And so then because they've made a mistake, and they're trying to justify themselves, they are like the prophets of Baal, they work themselves into a frenzy, make vain repetition and prayers, trying to work up a faith that will bring those things from the past those things which are not God's will for today. Yes, they want to goto heaven, some of them, they talk about it, then they attribute to themselves those things which belong to an earthly people and an earthly kingdom. Yes, they would like to be members of the body, but they insist on practicing those things of Israel, they make organizations here on earth, miniature replicas of Israel's millennial kingdom, which is supposed to be an example to the gentiles here on the earth instead of taking by faith the temple which is being formed in the heavens as an example to the powers and principalities in heavenly places (Ephesians 3:10). And so we have confusion, piled upon confusion, until we have Babylon revived in our own days as has been prophesied, and the simple solution to all of this is found in the two little words, 'BUT NOW'.
If you have power to reason, and discern the things that differ, you can readily see that there is no advocation here of any new and strange method of Bible study, but am only following what God and the Lord Jesus Christ have set before us in the Scriptures. It is the purpose I follow to find where God's instruction has changed, been augmented, or modified, as the case may be, in the unfolding of His purposes. The method is reasonable, for God never does the unreasonable things, and the method is logical, for God always deals in a logical way with man, never expecting the knowledge of things not yet revealed, nor disregarding of the latest orders. This method takes into consideration all the facts, coming to a conclusion after all the facts are in. It is unscientific, and it is unreasonable, and it is illogical, to get a notion and then seek to prove it by picking out only the verses which support man's ideas of what should be. Yet this seems to be the popular game today. If we approach God's word in this manner then we can prove just about anything, why, we can have people committing mass suicide when a comet passes by earth in the heavens if we so desire to prove such a self haughty idea.
I do not expect to find truth for today at any time or any place in the Bible before it has been revealed, nor do I try to find it just any place, but only can it be found where it IS revealed and where it is plainly stated that it is made known.
In speaking of the church, Paul says:
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill (or complete) the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, BUT NOW is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ among you, the hope of glory
(Col 1:25 - 27)
I would advise that you read this over and over again until you get it well in your mind, and see to it that you do not read just words or phrases, but that you get the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The next few verses after these make it very clear that it is THIS knowledge that will make perfect every man in Christ Jesus. If perfection is your goal, study it. Paul upholds the responsibly of this goal so very much, that he speaks of teaching and warning every man, and this was the knowledge he speaks of as 'the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles' in Ephesians 3:1.
And why do we read and study this part? For the simple reason that it is truth for today. I have a question or two that would do a great deal for those who search for truth.
Tongues. There is no historical or Biblical evidence that this is going on as it did at Pentecost over nineteen hundred years ago. This brings up an interesting connection, at the day of Pentecost Peter says 'men and brethren'. He doesn't say ladies and gentlemen. Why? For the simple reason they were in the temple, and they were in the part where the men could go. The women had their own court as did the men, and they were not allowed to mix together. There were no women present in the court where the twelve were speaking in tongues, where men from out of all nations heard them speaking clearly in their own dialect.
Now my question to you is this, is there at any time, in any record in the Bible, that any woman spoke in tongues? And I will go further, can you find any circumstance at any time in which that might have happened? This might set you thinking? There are a lot of non-Biblical things going on in the church these days, and we don't have to wonder too terribly hard at who is bringing them into the church. We just read into and read out of, a lot of things without ever thinking what the Bible actually says. I wonder sometimes if we even know how to read anymore, we just swallow what they feed us all the day long and argue for our own beliefs once we come to our conclusion. The reason there are so many denominations today is because of this failure to read, and the failure to even know the customs of the times.
Another question, Baptisms. Is there any record of a woman being baptized in water, except in the case of Lydia? Now, dig on that one for a while. I'd like to know your results. If Paul baptized Lydia, as the Bible says, and he did it according to what a lot of people today say, that is, a method of immersion, I'm just wondering then, back in Paul's time the body of a woman was very sacred, and someone didn't just touch a woman. I'm not sure that any man would have just stood by and witnessed their women baptized in water by immersion as is practiced today, there would have been a riot. Now we know that the method they baptized with was not submersion, but sprinkling, as they looked forward to the Lord coming to sprinkle them with water, the method was sprinkling with water from hyssop, and besides, the closest water from Pentecost at Jerusalem was at Jericho, if they wanted to be immersed, but immersion is not found in the OT so they wouldn't be desirous of it.
Last question. Works. In John 14:12, Christ says, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father'.
We don't get too far in Acts before we see that what He said here was true, the apostles, the twelve apostles and also Paul not only did the things the Lord did while He was here on earth, but did greater things and more of them. We find the case is true also of Elisha and Elijah. If you count the up you will see that Elisha did exactly twice as many miracles as did Elijah.
But do we find any gentiles preforming greater things than Christ did, or were they done only by the Jews. When we rightly divide the word of God, we have no reason to mix together the kingdom and the church, as they are certainly given a separate place in the Bible. So what does the Bible say is the measure of truth, and are we not warned about adding or subtracting thereby generating false truth? Isn't it true that it was the leaders in Christ's day who brought the traditions of men in, and it is not so even to this day?
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:18
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