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Topic: The Translation wherein Enoch was translated
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epouraniois
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I beleive the body must die, that some have not ans shall not taste of it, for in resurrection death is swallowed up in victory, and there are some verses pointing to that direction, towards the flesh melting away as it were.
Jer 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance
Jer 19:7 And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcasses will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.
Isa 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
Isa 2:21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
Job 4:19 How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?
Eze 22:20 As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you.
Eze 22:21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.
Eze 22:22 As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.
Nah 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
Nah 1:6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
Nah 1:7 The LORD is good, a stronghold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.
Nah 1:8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.
Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
Isa 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Exo 15:12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.
Exo 15:13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.
Exo 15:14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Philistia.
Exo 15:15 Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.
Exo 15:16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.
And all of this is for the earthly peoples, for Isarel's rule and for the nations which will come under the rod of iron. This could have been realized during the Acts, for it was and is their kingdom hope to enter into those millenial times.
However the church revealed after Acts is not seen in any of this, as the body of Christ manifest with Him when Christ manifest. Right now Christ is hid in God. Col 3: 3, 4. Paul doesn't speak even once of the church of the one body being here at His coming.
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Bloodbought
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Interesting study epouraniois.
Enoch may have died and was suddenly changed and caught up in the same way the Christians who are alive when Christ returns will.
Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Is it a contradiction to say it is appointed unto men once to die and death passed upon all men and then say, we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air? No, both are true. So what happens at the catching up? Those who are caught up must die first and then be changed. This all happens very suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye. Since it is appointed unto men once to die, no one escapes death.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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epouraniois
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That flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, the vile body must be changed is clearly stated. The flesh body must die says the HS, Heb 9:27, and the spirit returns to God who gave it, Ecc12.7.
Either God is doubleminded, or we have gotten the wrong idea about what is meant by the terms being empoyeed, such as These all died in faith; he was not; God took him, &c.
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BORN AGAIN
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allright, after all that, I believe that...Enoch was translated like Elijah.
epouraniois, was Elijah translated and how does Enoch's translation differ from that of Elijah's, if at all?
the LORD YHWH of Israel bless, BORN AGAIN ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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epouraniois
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posted
IMO, things of this nature are better understood with teachings that are not limited to the exodus, but include the purpose purposed, being the eisodos:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
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epouraniois
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he was not: The same expression occurs, Gen_37:30, Gen_42:36; Jer_31:15; Mat_2:18
showing the Hebraism
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
The Holy Spirit does not use spirit writing in His penmen, it is quite wonderful actually how the personalities of the writers are show through. Also, just as we do in our English, they too break up the repitition by using different acceptable sayings. In their days, he was not is acceptable. But I believe there is more to it here than just breaking up repetition.
Enoch 'pleased God', and it is written of Joeseph as well that he was not.
I can't recall about Joeseph, but the others listed all did something pretty terribly wrong. Enoch must not have:
Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God
Heb 11:6 God...a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Pro 11:18 The wicked worketh a deceitful work: but to him that soweth righteousness shall be a sure reward.
Pro 11:19 As righteousness tendeth to life: so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death.
Pro 11:20 They that are of a froward heart are abomination to the LORD: but such as are upright in their way are his delight.
Pro 11:21 Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
SEE death
G2334
θεωρέω
theōreō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be a spectator, look at, behold
1a) to view attentively, take a view of, survey
1a1) to view mentally, consider
2) to see
2a) to perceive with the eyes, to enjoy the presence of one
2b) to discern, descry
2c) to ascertain, find out by seeing
Part of Speech: verb
Death, where is thy sting?
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois, but if that's the case, why would the scriptures listing the patriarchs in Genesis 5 state about ALL the others: "and he died":
Genesis 5
17And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
20And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
There would seem to be no reason to change the identical terminology used for ALL the others EXCEPT Enoch, right?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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BORN AGAIN, yes, that does seem to be what the words are declaring to us, that when he died he did not experience a death with his five senses.
Personally I am impartial to whatever the word reveals, as I am one who only seeks the truth, I have no judgement in whatever that proves to be, that is what I want and I know this can only be had from the Lord Christ Jesus. And for this, I am prepared to do some digging. I do so earnestly endeavor that I may know Him. I try to search and see with each and every word in every verse, where the words are used elsewhere along with their varients, in their corresponding subject/object through unto completion, simply believing whatever I am able to receive, praying that I might gleen a glimpse of the Holy God who dwells in the light.
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BORN AGAIN
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brother epouraniois, I did not see an answer to my post in your last post?
It seems to me that you are saying that Enoch died but that he somehow did not know it with his senses?
please clarify in a few sentences. thanks, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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Greetings to you in Christ BORN AGAIN. When we use the words in the same way God has chosen to use them elsewhere, not only do we receive of His understanding, additionally then there is no contradiction, nor here with Enoch being numbered with those who died. That he did not 'taste death' is probably the 'atomos', ie 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
G823
ἄτομος
atomos
Thayer Definition:
1) that cannot be cut in two, or divided, indivisible
1a) of a moment of time
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. 1Co 15:53-58
I believe that at least half of everything 'Public Worship' teaches must be set aside for the 'pure words' of God, lest we only receive of the understanding of the ministry.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I believe as does my Pastor, that Enoch did not die. He also believe that he will be one of the wittnessess during the triublation, when he will die to be resurrected. Just something to think about.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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BORN AGAIN
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brother epouraniois, so what are you saying exactly about Enoch? That he died but somehow didn't notice that he had died with his senses?
Or that he didn't die?
Could it not be said that Enoch was "carried over death"?
Didn't Jesus and the disciples say something similar about John?
John 21
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
Anyway, did Enoch die, and if so, how was it that he "didn't perceive it with his senses"?
BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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Enoch was translated, that is what we read. Enoch did not die, that is what they tell us all day long. How does God use these words though? Does God mean that Enoch was beamed up like on Star Trek? What does the Bible actually say?
The garden of God, the Tree of Life, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the expulsion from the garden, ‘and he died’ is the theme from Adam till..., being found in 70 OT verses.
Enter Enoch,
Gen 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Enoch is associated with reward.
Heb 11:5-6
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
“should not see death’’ gives us the word ‘eido’ = ‘see’.
"Eido" = to perceive and observe with the 5 senses. We do not have the words Enoch did not die. We are given the words that he did not perceive and observe death.
"Eido" is the word translated ‘know’ in 1Th 5:12,
“And we beseech you, brethren, to know =(eido) them which labor among you”.
Christ uses this word in a most difficult verse, where He said in Mat 16:28,
“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see =(eido) the Son of man coming in his kingdom”.
What I am attempting to convey here, is reinforced by the word ‘translated’.
“Enoch was translated that he should not see death”.
Now this might surprise some of you. ‘Translated’ = ‘metatithēmi’, and it is used of dead bodies.
We find this exampled in Acts 7: 15-16;
"So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers, And were carried over (metatithēmi) into Shechem, and laid in the sepulcher that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Hamor the father of Shechem".
We can easily use the word 'translated', Abraham was translated into Shechem...
So far, we can see very different direction than where we are normally led in this passage. We find that Enoch was "carried over", or, "translated", that he should not perceive and observe death with the 5 senses. This is further reinforced only a few verses forward, where we read:
Heb 11:13
These all died in faith
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham
Heb 11:9 By faith…Isaac and Jacob
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sarah
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith
Enoch was carried over, or, translated, that he should not perceive and observe death, yet, he is counted with the overcomers, who "all died in faith".
Gen 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
“And he was not” is a common Hebraism for one that has died, with a few variations:
Psa 37:36
“Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found”.
Gen 37:30
“And he returned unto his brethren, and said, The child is not”
Gen 42:36
“And Jacob their father said unto them, Me have ye bereaved of my children: Joseph is not, and Simeon is not, and ye will take Benjamin away: all these things are against me”.
Jer 31:15
“Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not”.
Lam 5:7
“Our fathers have sinned, and are not; and we have borne their iniquities”.
Job 7:21
“… now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be”.
It is my hope that this provides some light against the dark teachings of men, who would perceive for us. Teaching that Enoch entered into the presence of the Lord in his flesh and blood body, that Enoch never died, for Christ Himself testifieth against any such entrance into the kingdom of heaven, as do the apostles and prophets. Of course, there more problems with Enoch, and the teachings of men. Lets go to Jude:
Jud 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these
Now, this expression occurs elsewhere, right in this very epistle. The literal rendering is "to these", not 'of these'. Well, how did Enoch prophecize to people who had not yet been born? But thats not the all of it friends. Anyone who knows Greek, will know that "Behold, the Lord cometh" is not a translation of this passage. This isn't the word "cometh", this is the word He came in the past tense.
And we read the same thing elsewhere:
"And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh" (Eph 2:17). NOT He is coming to do it, He has already done it. First thought is, this makes it worse. Of course it does. But worse for what? We want to know what this means, not what we think it means.
So should we just put down the words as they are written, And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied to these that were around him, saying behold, the Lord came in the past with with ten thousands of his saints, and He is going to do it again.
If the Lord already came with ten thousands of His saints, when was that? Genesis verse 2, and the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Let us remember in Jud 1:6, we read, "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation", He's throwing us back to some time when angels were involved in a fall, and there is enough evidence in Scripture to know that that fall took place long before the days of Noah.
So when the Lord comes down in judgment, He will only be doing what has already been done once, coming down in judgment on that Satanic rule that so abused his position that God had to destroy that world; and sure enough it started all over again, so that we've got a destroyed world in the days of Noah! And it was brought about by the same instrument, the sons of God and all that abuse. And in the midst of all that, Enoch stands, and he points back, and he points forward.
Heb 2:5
For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Well, who would have given any thought to angels being rulers of the world? This statement makes no sense without the knowledge that they had at one time been so. And this is the reason we read here that they will not be given the world to come. It is in this light, the statement makes sense, as we read in Isa 45:18, "the world was made to be the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it NOT IN VAIN (emphasis mine), He formed it to be inhabit" He did not make the heavens and the earth without form and void, they BECAME that way in Genesis 1:2.
Time for me to stop.
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