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Topic: Can the Holy Spirit of promise we are sealed with be broken?
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becauseHElives
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Sealed by the Spirit
In 2 Cor. 1:21-22, we read, "Now he that established us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God; who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." In Eph. 1:13-14, we read, "in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, -- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory." Ephesians 4:30 says, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption."
Calvinistic theologians take these passages to mean that one who has ever believed in the Lord is at that moment granted salvation from sin and its punishment, and that salvation is secured so that there is no possibility of it being lost, for he is "sealed and secured" by God and given a pledge that he can never be lost. It is often styled "eternal security of the believer," or "impossibility of apostasy."
We would have no argument with the idea of the eternal security of the believer if those who use the terms would use them as God does. That is, a "believer" is a faithful child of God who is "walking in the light, as He is in the light (1 Jn. 1:7), a sheep in the fold of Christ who is "hearing the voice of Jesus and following Him" (John 10:27-28). We contend that all the powers of evil on earth or in hell cannot cause a person to be lost who is following the voice of Jesus and doing His will. He has "eternal security." The questions, however, are: May a person who is a believer ever fall away from the faith or cease to be a believer? May a person's love for Christ grow cold? (Mt. 24:12). A person who was a 'goat' ceased to be a goat and became a sheep. May a person cease to be a sheep, and leave the fold? When we consider all the Bible warnings, we know that he can. So, in order to better understand the idea of being "sealed" and having an "earnest of the Spirit," let us examine those terms and see their meaning more completely.
There is little doubt that the term "earnest," from the Greek "arrabon" originally referred to what we call "earnest money" deposited by a purchaser as a down payment, and to be forfeited if the purchase was not complete, or the agreement broken. In the New Testament it is suggested that the Holy Spirit is given to a Christian as a divine pledge or down payment on the future blessings that God has in store for us.
Surely every Christian is at least dimly aware that every spiritual blessing he now has in Christ is but a foretaste, a sort of "down payment," of the life and blessings God has reserved in heaven for us "who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation reserved in heaven for us, ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1:4-5). Note that we are kept by the power of God, but it is through faith. The basic question with which we are dealing is, "Once the earnest money was given, did it necessarily follow that the thing purchased was unconditionally guaranteed?" The answer should be apparent whether one looks at any purchase today, or how the term applied in either the Old Testament or the New. There were and are terms of any contract, will or covenant. If one party does not abide by the terms, the earnest money that was put down is forfeit. Anyone who ever put up "earnest money" to buy a house may have discovered that.
1 John 3:23-24 is one among many passages that teach that abiding in Christ is dependent upon keeping His commandments. If we grieve the Spirit (Eph. 4:30, quench the Spirit (1 Thes. 5:19), do despite to the Spirit (Heb. 10:29), then we may break the contract or the relationship that existed when the earnest was given.
Now let us examine briefly what is meant by the "seal." The noun "sphragio" and the verb, "sphragizo" are used in various ways to indicate ownership, security, authentication, etc., in a way that is very similar to how we use the word "seal" in the English language. We seal a letter by moistening the glue. A notary puts his seal on a document to attest to the fact that the party or parties involved actually gave the testimony indicated, or that the signatures are valid. When the tomb of Jesus was sealed (Mt. 27:66), it was for the purpose of fixing it so the body could not easily be removed. It was not meant to be broken, but note carefully that although it was not meant to be broken, it was. When we seal a letter, it is not meant to be opened before it gets to its destination, but it can be. When a notary puts his seal on an agreement, the agreement is not supposed to be broken, but it can be.
When God gives the Holy Spirit to His children as an authentication that He has bought us, and we belong to Him, that seals an agreement that we have made with Him that we accept the authority of Jesus as Lord, and belong to Him forever. That in no way implies that we cannot break that agreement, and be unfaithful. When Abraham received "the sign of circumcision, as a seal of the righteousness of faith which he had" (Rom. 4:11) God was attesting to the fact that Abraham and his descendants who kept the ritual properly, and obeyed the law would be His special people. It did NOT signify that they could not break His covenant, be disobedient and be cut off from the blessings promised. Surely no person who reads the history of Israel could logically conclude otherwise.
To summarize: God has put His "stamp of approval" (seal) on us as His children by giving us His Spirit (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 3:16). If we demonstrate that we are His by producing the fruit of the Spirit, then this seal shows that we are owned by Him and are under His protection and authority. We may fail to do that, "break the seal" and be lost. Even in the context of Ephesians 4:30-32 when Paul says we are sealed unto the day of redemption, he warns us not to grieve the Holy Spirit, and to be kind and forgiving. Jesus said that God will not forgive us if we do not forgive others (Mt. 6:14-18). So we must conclude that though He has sealed us with the Spirit, and the Lord knows who are His (2 Tim. 2:19), if we do not depart from unrighteousness we will be lost, or as we might put it, the seal will be broken.
The Holy Spirit is both an earnest (a foretaste of what God has in store for us) and a seal, but those terms do not refer to the same function or purpose, for the Holy Spirit as a seal is showing that we belong to Him and are under His authority and care, and the Holy Spirit as an earnest is to give us an idea of what we shall have as a result of belonging to Him.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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helpforhomeschoolers
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You have to read the rest of the contest BA: if you boast against the branch the ROOT bear you but you bear not the ROOT.
What does that say to you?
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HisGrace
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I don't believe that Samson's strength laid in his hair, but his anointing was lost because of disobedience.
It's a great symbology when you say that the roots were still there, Bloodbought. God in his unconditinal love gave him a second chance because Samson hadn't lost total faith - his faith roots were still there.
However, because of his weakness Samson had planted some wrong seed and even though his stength was regained, he still was blind and ultimately was crushed to death.
If God has clearly warned us not to cross certain boundaries, those rules are forever, not to be changed three or six months down the road. As we see a very strong lesson has been learned regarding disobedience.
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epouraniois
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The Simplicity:
When the Apostle Paul preached the good news concerning Christ and His Church, at Ephesus, his ministry continued in Asia for the space of two years (Acts 19:10). We read that the Word of God grew mightily and prevailed, and that "all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus." And yet, at the close of his ministry, and of his life, he writes his last Epistle to Timothy, when he says "I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand" (II Timothy 1:15): "This thou knowest that all they that be in Asia have turned away from me."
We are told, on every hand, today, that we must go back to the first three centuries to find the purity of faith and worship of the primitive church!
But it is clear from this comparison of Acts 19:10 and II Timothy 1:15, that we cannot go back to the first century. No, not even to the apostle's own lifetime!
This turning away could not have been merely personal; but must have included his teaching also. For in chapter 2, verse 18, he speaks of those "who concerning the truth have erred." In chapter 3, verse 8, he speaks of those who "resist the truth." In chapter 4, verse 4, he speaks of those who "turn away their ears from the truth" and are "turned unto fables."
It was Pauline truth and teaching from which all had "turned away."
It was this turning away from the truth as taught by the Holy Spirit through Paul, especially as contained in the Epistle to the Ephesians:
Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to CREATE in himself of twain one new MAN, so making peace;
All in Asia turned away, and even today, people don't really want to goto heaven.
Ephesians, 5 times, with 5 being the number for grace, the term is given 'heavenly places'. All in Asia turned away. They still are turned away even today. Instead of recognising "the One Body" which God had made, men set about making their own "Bodies" and Sects! and with this ecclesiastical confusion came the loss of the truth as to the Christian's perfect standing in Christ as having died and risen in Him.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
There are times when we do things that will cause the Lord to depart from us, but the roots are still there and we still have potential to do exploits for God. All is not lost.
Some very good points, Bloodbought.
I believer that if we as Christians turn our back on God and totally sever ourselves from our salvation, we are lost, even though it is possible to be grafted back into the Kingdom by asking for forgiveness.
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Bloodbought
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Let us look at the cutting off from another angle.
Let us look at something that was cut off and caused loss of power but the roots were still there.
Judg 16:18 And when Delilah saw that he had told her all his heart, she sent and called for the lords of the Philistines, saying, Come up this once, for he hath shewed me all his heart. Then the lords of the Philistines came up unto her, and brought money in their hand.
19 And she made him sleep upon her knees; and she called for a man, and she caused him to shave off the seven locks of his head ; and she began to afflict him, and his strength went from him.
20 And she said, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he wist not that the LORD was departed from him.
When Samson’s hair was cut off he lost his power and the Lord departed from him and he didn’t know it.
They could cut off his hair and even shave it close, but there was something they couldn’t touch, they couldn’t touch the roots and his hair began to grow again.
21 But the Philistines took him, and put out his eyes, and brought him down to Gaza,
and bound him with fetters of brass; and he did grind in the prison house.
22 Howbeit the hair of his head began to grow again after he was shaven.
When his hair grew his strength returned.
28 And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.
29 And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left.
30 And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.
There are times when we do things that will cause the Lord to depart from us, but the roots are still there and we still have potential to do exploits for God. All is not lost.
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BORN AGAIN
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Bloodbought writes quote:
Hi Born again.
You say we are grafted in but we can be cut off again. Do you mean totally lost, or do you mean this is a branch that didn’t bear fruit and was pruned back, but the roots are still there and will grow again?
Romans 11
19 You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well;because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not you.[/quote]I would say totally lost. If the grafted-in Gentile returns to unbelief, s/he is just like an Israelite in unbelief, and Paul says that they will be cut off the olive tree again, just like the Israelite in unbelief was cut off.
They will be appointed a place with the hypocrites:
Matthew 24:51
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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The word 'adoption' is key, unlike today, back then an adoption could NEVER be altered, undone, or any such thing.
The Israelites have an adoption. Those gentiles who were of the stock of Isaac had an adoption.
Each of these are specific to a called out and chosen people. They have a hope which is peculiar to their calling.
Some were graphed into the tree called Israel.
After that a newly created church is declared. Like the ones that came before it, this church also has a specific adoption.
No Biblical adoptions can be altered. God has declared, He does not change His mind:
To Israel:
Psa 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
To those gentiles:
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
They are graphed into Israel, who's hope is earthly in its position.
The church which is His body is different. It is not graphed into Israel. His body is called into a heavenly position. This body is not called after the world began like these others. The church which is the fullness is different in every way because it is not the same in any way.
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Bloodbought
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Hi Born again.
You say we are grafted in but we can be cut off again. Do you mean totally lost, or do you mean this is a branch that didn’t bear fruit and was pruned back, but the roots are still there and will grow again?
The scriptures say when we are converted we become sons. This in my view is a relationship that cannot be undone. It is legally binding as far as I know. Once a son, always a son.
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois, you and I still have considerable differences about some of these groups.
For me, when the majority of Israel/Judah rejected the Lord, that majority of Israel/Judah was cut off the olive tree of Israel while believing Gentiles were grafted in their empty spots in the olive tree of Israel.
that is still the case now, and not "back then" as you seem to imply.
but if any of these grafted-in Gentiles end up in unbelief, that unbelieving Gentile (meaning us Gentiles in the church) can be un-grafted again.
isn't it as simple as that? it sure seems that way to me.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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quote:
Romans 11
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not you.
Since the LORD can and would ungraft any grafted-in Gentile, doesn't that mean that everything else would be "undone" too for that formerly-grafted-in Gentile?
Born Again
As far as I can tell, you are absolutely correct.
These children of Isaac who were graphed in contrary to nature could, as did Israel, fall into boasting and covetness, and even disbelief, for God was looking for overcomers.
They had alot to overcome, there the leaders of Israel at work, and the forces of demoniacs, all focused upon one thing, to make this Chirst thing to go away by any means necessary to prevent Israel from achieving the promised covenanted and glorious position she was and is to hold, by murder, sedition, transducers, by lying, anything.
And that is exactly what happened, it looked as if Satan had finally stood in the way of the plan of God, preventing Israel from receiving her King and the heavenly kingdom He was to bring, putting down all rule and authority.
In the end of it all, when Israel goes into her period, this period of blindness, the mystery of Israel's blindness, we find that God had not revealed all His plan, that He had a secret He hid in Himself, and upon the revelation of the mystery and the introduction of the church never before made known, that all who are in Asia had turned away, that even from the first they rejected this, that only Luke was with Paul. The instruction is to Timothy now, that he find some men somewhere who would care in this good deposit of knowledge revealed only to Paul.
If the gentiles then, like Israel, turned away, they were, as it were, broken off as were Israel. And beyond all of this, if Israel did not bear her fruit, they would not be able to stand on their own without her, without the tree, there are no branches left standing at all.
That was then, now we are in the dispensation of the grace of God, Eph3. 10-3;
And it should not have to be mentioned that the church that now is in view is the one of the heavenly calling. Israel shall be taken up again, but even in this, we read that when God does this, only one hundred and forty four thousand will overcome. That isn't very many, and it won't take place in the USA, but in Jerusalem, where they shall see Him return onto Mt Zion.
We are the church, or we are at least being called into it, but most people make their own churches on earth, rather than Eph 4. 3.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
So is it possible to know a Christian? The Bible says by their fruits ye shall know them, but then David didn’t exhibit much of these fruits, did he?
David was under the Levitical law - we are under the New Covenant law of love as commanded by Jesus.
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BORN AGAIN
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Romans 11
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not you.
Since the LORD can and would ungraft any grafted-in Gentile, doesn't that mean that everything else would be "undone" too for that formerly-grafted-in Gentile?
I would think so.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Keeping the commandments is not an indication that one is a Christian.
Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
This man’s behaviour made him seem like a Christian, but he neglected the most important commandment of all, namely, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” Ex 20:3. His god was his earthly wealth.
All of the references in the above quote emphasize the importance of keeping the commandments. However, no one is able to keep the commandments perfectly, not even a Christian. The only one that kept the commandments perfectly was Jesus.
The man in Luke 18:18 had the outward appearance of a Christian, but it was all a show of self-righteousness.
David, a man after God’s own heart put Uriah in the front line of the battle to have him killed so he could have his wife in marriage.
2 Sam 11:14 And it came to pass in the morning, that David wrote a letter to Joab, and sent it by the hand of Uriah.
15 And he wrote in the letter, saying, Set ye Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retire ye from him, that he may be smitten, and die.
The man who committed murder and adultery was the Godly man and the man who did his best to keep the commandments was ungodly.
So is it possible to know a Christian? The Bible says by their fruits ye shall know them, but then David didn’t exhibit much of these fruits, did he?
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becauseHElives
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WildB
You gave no answer,
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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epouraniois
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quote:
“If ye then be risen with Christ”,
What a statement…
To understand the Scriptures you can not pick the parts you like, that make Christianity something that the multitudes will attain to.
I believe it is the multitudes which are to be deceived, according to Christ in Mat24, it is the few who will have the love for the truth. Is that not correct?
Mat 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
'if' can be more than 'conditional'.
Ex. - Let us say that I am going to goto the store. My nieghbor sees me getting in my vehicle and says to me where are you going. I say, to the store. Nieghbor says:
If you're going to the store, can you pick me up some water while you're there?
Of course then, sometimes 'if' is not conditional, but there are more usages of it:
"IF" : THE VARIOUS CONDITIONS CONVEYED BY ITS USE. CB App 118 http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append118.html
1. ean = if haply, if so be that, from ei (No. 2) and an, haply, perchance. The exact condition is shown by the Mood of the verb with which it is used :
a. Followed by the Indicative Mood (with the Present Tense), it expresses the condition simply; without any reference to its being decisive by experience, or by the event, as in 1John 5:15, elsewhere, and in the Papyri.
b. Followed by the Subjunctive Mood, it expresses a hypothetical but possible condition, contingent on circumstances which the future will show (John 7:17).
2. et = if. Putting the condition simply.
a. Followed by the Indicative Mood, the hypothesis is assumed as an actual fact, the condition being unfulfilled, but no doubt being thrown upon the supposition (1Cor. 15:16).
b. Followed by the Optative Mood, it expresses an entire uncertainty; a mere assumption or conjecture of a supposed case (Acts 17:27. 1Pet. 3:14).
c. Followed by the Subjunctive Mood, like No. 1. b; except that this puts the condition with more certainty, and as being more dependent on the event (1Cor. 14:5).
For two illustrations, see Acts 5:38, 39. "If this counsel or this work be of men (1. b, a result which remains to be seen) ... but if it is of God (1. a, which I assume to be the case)", &c.
John 13:17. "If ye know these things (2. a, which I assume to be the fact) happy are ye if ye do them (1. b, a result which remains to be seen)".
Note four "ifs" in Colossian's, "if ye died with Christ" (2:20); and "if ye were raised with Christ" (3:1), both of which are No. 2 (assuming the fact to be true); "if any man have a quarrel" (3:13); "if he come to you" (4:10), both of which are No. 1. b, being uncertainties.
One other "if" in Colossians is 1:23 : "If ye continue in the faith" (eige = if indeed, a form of 2. a), which ye will assuredly do.
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
WildB
"if that which is perfect has come"
What are you refering to as that which is perfect?
The Word of God.
If we saints did wait for the "perfection" as some of you wait, would we be with our Lord in Force that shall fix?
Jude.1
1. [14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
[15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
[16] These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Just think about it.
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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WildB
"if that which is perfect has come"
What are you refering to as that which is perfect?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
No Born Again that is not my assumption
The Scripture say “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.”
Every member of the True Body of Christ has a part
We all must be willing to receive each others part to see the whole
The whole counsel of Yahweh
Until that which is perfect has fully come to earth “The Kingdom of Yahweh”
Just as there is a Merciful side of knowing Yahweh
There is a Judging side to knowing Yahweh
The Scriptures say He will not always strive with man
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Wild B : Has perfection already come?
I think NOT.
When the King returns, then will perfection have come.
No when the King returns hes going to break heads open with a rod of iron.
Is this what you think the word perfection in the text to mean?
You are confused about a perfected message and the end results of the BEMA.
I would rather err on the side that the word of God as we have it today to mean "that which is perfect has come" but which at that time was in the makeing of its perfection and has sence been compleated and in no more need of tounge tuneing.
Rev.22
from the post http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000069
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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No Born Again that is not my assumption
The Scripture say “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.”
Every member of the True Body of Christ has a part
We all must be willing to receive each others part to see the whole
The whole counsel of Yahweh
Until that which is perfect has fully come to earth “The Kingdom of Yahweh”
Just as there is a Merciful side of knowing Yahweh
There is a Judging side to knowing Yahweh
The Scriptures say He will not always strive with man
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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BORN AGAIN
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becauseHElives writes quote:
To understand the Scriptures you can not pick the parts you like
the Bible is a big book and it is a spiritual book; it is in a way a very deep book, continuously revealing its depth and glory as one reads and studies the Word over time.
For instance, all of us have been attracted to different parts of the Bible. Some of us have read the whole Bible 7 times and some books of the Bible 70 times (so to speak).
So becauseHElives, you wrote quote:
To understand the Scriptures you can not pick the parts you like
First of all, you are assuming that each Christian “knows all parts”, and that simply is not the case. After 25 years of being a Christian, I’m still finding “new parts” in the Bible.
So no one is “picking the parts they like”, although, in a way, they start with “the parts they like”. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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Bloodbought wrote quote:
When we become a born-again believer, we receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit of God and are sealed.
Can that seal ever be broken and if so what would one have to do to break it?
HisGrace wrote quote:
I believe we can break it by totally turning our backs on God.
if God can put His Holy Spirit inside of us, He can also take His Holy Spirit back out of us again if we break the New Covenant, of faith in His Son Jesus’s death on the cross on behalf of our sins.
If someone stops having faith in Jesus, God can just as easily take His Holy Spirit back out of us again:
Romans 11
19 You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well;because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not you.
here the Apostle Paul says that the Gentiles who were grafted in, if the Gentiles also returned to unbelief, for that was the cause why Israelites were cut off from their olive tree, by their branches being broken off for unbelief.
And Paul says that if we grafted-in Gentiles stop believing, God also will not spare us and He will cut us out of the olive tree again.
Romans 11
19 You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well;because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not you.
here the Apostle Paul says that if any of the grafted-in Gentiles also return to unbelief, which was the same cause why Israelites were cut off out of their own olive tree, for unbelief.
And Paul says that if we grafted-in Gentiles stop believing, God also will not spare us and He will cut us out of the olive tree again.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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becauseHElives
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“If ye then be risen with Christ”,
What a statement…
To understand the Scriptures you can not pick the parts you like, that make Christianity something that the multitudes will attain to.
Yeshua said many, would seek to enter but few would enter eternal life
"Therefore I testify to you this day, that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. (Acts 20:26,27
Is it possible to know for sure that someone is a true Christian?
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
quote:
If someone claims to be a born-again believer and trusting Christ for salvation and at the same time they are hassling fellow Christians and doing things that the worldling would not be seen doing, are we to assume that they will be saved but lose reward?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
The apostle Paul, after years of ministry in Ephesus and the surrounding areas, called the elders of the Ephesian church together for a final word before his departure. In this touching scene, Paul bared his heart and revealed his practice. What was important to him was not his own life (Acts 20:24), but the welfare of the church. Paul reminded them of his practice: "how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly and from house to house, solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:20,21). Sadly, he also predicted that after his departure, wolves would arise from their own midst (Acts 20:29-31). They had been prepared to deal with this, since Paul patiently taught them "the whole counsel of God."
Today, with more wolves, more deception, and more questionable religious information bombarding Christians through every conceivable media, are we to suppose that we no longer need the whole counsel of God? That is just what many have been telling us. The seeker sensitive church movement, one of the largest and most influential in America, is built on the premise that churches should provide what religious consumers want, not necessarily what the Bible says they need. Thousands of pastors are being trained through church growth seminars which mete out advice that is contradictory to Paul’s practice and what he advised Timothy in the pastoral epistles. We are told that many traditional Christian doctrines are not relevant to contemporary people. Furthermore, the common advice is that we should find out from the community around us what people think they need, and then set out to meet "felt needs." If people are not interested in the whole counsel of God, then supposedly we are foolish to declare it.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Bloodbought
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Well,I respect everyone’s view, but when I read what epouraniois said I needed to go for a walk and think deeply about it.
quote:
Col 3. 1-3, “If ye then be risen with Christ”, [now this is not the conditional “if”, rather the assumption of already being]. This is not saying, well, if you are, because I am not quite sure, you might be like so and so. It’s SINCE you have been. You have been identified with Christ in His resurrection. This is part of this glorious identification Paul writes to us gentiles we read in Ephesians. Well now, if that’s so, then "seek those things which are above [literally, those above things], where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection [mind] on the above things, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God".
Well now, that is quite a statement. Where has God put this eternal life, which is His gift? Has he handed it over to the believers and said now there it is, that’s yours, now you take care of it, and make sure you don’t lose it? Of course He hasn’t, oh no, it is perfectly safe where no one can get at it. Why would He trust us to keep it safe, because that’s just what would happen, we would go and do something silly and lose it. But that shall not happen, God has hidden it, and He’s hidden it so effectively, He’s hidden it in Himself. Can anyone think of a safer place by which God could place the surety of a Salvation He had in His mind before the world even began? I can’t. He hasn’t hidden it in the heavens, or with angels, or even the greatest created being, He’s hidden it in Himself, with Christ.
That all sounds very good if that “if” in Col 3 is not conditional. Is it possible to know for sure that someone is a true Christian? If someone claims to be a born-again believer and trusting Christ for salvation and at the same time they are hassling fellow Christians and doing things that the worldling would not be seen doing, are we to assume that they will be saved but lose reward?
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epouraniois
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I wanted to add to this because if man, after a brief and troubled existence for a few fleeting years, goes down to "dusty death", then all controversy concerning theological matters is a waste of time.
If there be no deliverance from sin and its dread
consequences, then all is vanity. To be in need of salvation implies that one is "lost." To be in
need of deliverance implies that one is in bondage or in danger. To discover that "no man can redeem" either himself or his brother, makes the question "What must I do to be saved?" the most imperative question mortal man can utter.
Israel, God's chosen people, are represented as being "lost sheep" [Matt. 10:6] and Christ
said of Himself and of His mission.
"The Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" [Luke 19:10].
Gentiles, too, are in the same category:
"If our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost" [2 Cor. 4:3].
Paul says in Romans 8. 38, that nothing can separate us from the love of God. Nothing. And it has been said, that those who profess to the Christian believer that no matter how much one will sin, no matter what sort of life you live you can just do what you like, and never lose your Salvation.
That of course has been settled. What we are going to find in this study, is that God in His matchless Wisdom has so arranged that that just cannot be. Oh yes, God knows all about that. You can’t tell God anything about the weakness of human nature. He knows. He has provided for it, in the believer. First there is one or two things we shall want to see. We read in the epistle to the Ephesians 4, v30, “And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption”. In chapter one v12-14, we have this sealing again brought before us, “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise”. So twice in Ephesians, we are assured that God has stamped His seal on this transaction. That is to say the work is finished, completed. He’s using a human Figure to bring before us the completeness of this glorious work. God has put His seal on it. “Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory”.
Now the point is, can the believer break this seal? Well, I say, that it is definitely written in the forth chapter that he can’t. How long is he sealed for? He is sealed until the day of redemption. And the day of redemption is the end, it s the day of glory. That is to say, all down through this present pilgrim pathway, the seal is there. It can’t be broken, praise God, until the day of redemption. So we have the work of Christ, and the work of the Holy Spirit in all these different ways, guarding, strengthening, keeping, holding, sealing, all to bring this glorious fact home to us, that once in Christ, we are saved. We are safe.
Not only that, but Ephesians also brings before us this wonderful doctrine of identification with Christ. When we read of the one baptism in chapter four, we find it is not the ‘type’, not the picture that sets identification forth by immersion in water, but The Reality: The Baptism of the Spirit. Colossians says this baptism is the working of God. You are raised through the operation and the working of God. It’s not by what any man is doing by immersing them. This is God doing it. God the Holy Spirit uniting the believer with the Savior, in all these aspects: His death, His burial, His quickening, His resurrection, His present cession, at the right hand of God. And presently, His glorious manifestation.
Now God has done that, can that be broken by the believer? We are not given one hint that there is anything the believer can do to break that identification. There isn’t one that I know of. You see, it is God’s work. Suppose that He had allowed man to have a little hand in it, then I would agree that there is a possibility, but no, all you and I have to do is believe it. To act upon it, to live by faith is what He is asking us to do. It cannot be marred by any fault of the believer. Then see to, of course, in Ephesians one, of His Will and His choice, starting in v3 we read, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us”. Now there is a certain number of people who have been chosen in Christ by the Father. Now, are some of those not going to get to glory? Well, we read of the church which is His body, “He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world”, before it ever existed, chosen in Christ. Some are not going to get there? Some are going to fail? Shouldn’t we have to say that at least part of God’s plan has been spoiled then? It must be so if this is he case; And yet, this surely cannot be. We find the work of the Son is so holy and so complete that He can place all His creation in its future place before it ever existed, and this calling is one “that we should be holy and without blame before him in love”. In chapter 5. 25, “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy [here are the words of ch1] and without [blame] blemish” in love”.
Now that’s the same number that the Father chose. Is this a mutilated church that is going to be presented? Is it a partial church? With some fallen out? Surely not, and if God cannot accept that, then why should we listen to anyone telling us that we should accept that sort of work which God works as being somehow incompetent. This is the exact number chosen in past eternity, redeemed, made fit, by the work of Christ. This is the glorious will of the Father, and we will be presented a completed church. So, we want to bear that in mind. Let us turn now to Colossians.
Col 3. 1-3, “If ye then be risen with Christ”, [now this is not the conditional “if”, rather the assumption of already being]. This is not saying, well, if you are, because I am not quite sure, you might be like so and so. It’s SINCE you have been. You have been identified with Christ in His resurrection. This is part of this glorious identification Paul writes to us gentiles we read in Ephesians. Well now, if that’s so, then "seek those things which are above [literally, those above things], where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection [mind] on the above things, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God".
Well now, that is quite a statement. Where has God put this eternal life, which is His gift? Has he handed it over to the believers and said now there it is, that’s yours, now you take care of it, and make sure you don’t lose it? Of course He hasn’t, oh no, it is perfectly safe where no one can get at it. Why would He trust us to keep it safe, because that’s just what would happen, we would go and do something silly and lose it. But that shall not happen, God has hidden it, and He’s hidden it so effectively, He’s hidden it in Himself. Can anyone think of a safer place by which God could place the surety of a Salvation He had in His mind before the world even began? I can’t. He hasn’t hidden it in the heavens, or with angels, or even the greatest created being, He’s hidden it in Himself, with Christ.
Hidden until Christ is manifested, not handing it over for even a moment, and we read in v4, that “When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory”.
And you will remember this, from Romans 11, that in all of God’s work, in all of God’s plans for the ages, His gift, His calling is without repentance. He’s not going to change His mind. Now, we’ve seen that Salvation is by His grace, not dependant upon anything of ourselves, that we cannot undo the finished work of Christ. The Scripture says God is not going to give it and then take it back again. He won’t do it with His earthly people Israel, in spite of all their sin and failure, we read “and so all Israel shall be saved…For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance”, [without change of mind, as that word is].
I think that when we keep all these things in front of our mind, we should have to find some very very clear Scripture to upset all this.
Keep in mind that the prize is set on top of Salvation, a prize to be won as an overcomer, or lost unto shame, to be revealed in resurrection.
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epouraniois
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Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (that’s written AGE. And must refer to the Kingdom AGE. You see, all the miraculous gifts during the Acts period were simply foretastes of the coming Kingdom of Israel’s inheritance in the earth. AND every believer had tasted, they all got one gift or another by the HS, see Mark 16. 17, 18)
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Now those are solemn words. God forbid that I should lessen them, or try to get out of it by saying he isn’t talking to saved people or that those were pretending to be saved when they are not. That would never do, as these are saved believers, for v4 tells us they’ve been enlightened, and that we find the same word coming out in ch10:32, we find they’ve been “illuminated”:
“But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated,” these weren’t the fakers, these were the real beleivers. And fortunately, he’s given us an example of what he is trying to say in v7:
“For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briars is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you”,
NOW I can’t think that YOU are like the ground that hast to be burnt. Look again. It does not say the ground is cursed, it says it is getting preciously near to it, it is what fails to come forth out of it whose end is to be burned. When the ground is burned, it’s still there afterwards isn’t it? Only those useless things which came out of it have no salvation, and that friend, are the works that are not fit, or meet as it were.
Hebrews is not dealing with THE Salvation of the beleiver, for these are believers, this is not an evangelistic message, is one to the overcomers, and speaks of those things which come with Salvation, things that accompany Salvation:
“and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak”.
They are told they are running a race, 12:1 “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith”.
Well, we can see losing a race, losing the prize that comes with finishing the course, but Jesus is both the author and the finisher of Faith. Faith gets one across the end run of the course for the glory of the prize, but the Lord Jesus has taken care of the first things first, before the prize was ever in the mind of Abraham. So a prize can be lost, but that’s not the same as becoming unsaved.
And this is the point. When we find our friend pressed on being saved, and losing that glorious Salvation which is in perfect safe keeping in God with Christ, it is because they have confused Salvation with Reward.
Now what I have in Christ I know because I am a believer, and in Christ and that is Salvation. Every believer is to know that Salvation is assured, and that we are to not lay again those foundations, but to continue on unto full growth [perfection in Heb. v1, 2] and what we continue onto is the prize, the goal. Every wieght that is be laid aside here then, is the law that had been but a picture of the true. Christ came to fulfill the law, so now it finds its application is past.
Every weight of the past then must be laid aside. We cannot carry it with us and expect to finish this race. And after Acts 28 Paul reveals that even this hope brought forward in Hebrews must be laid aside as a weight in Phi 3:13;
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus mindedI might not be a faithful servant, and I may not.
And there is that word perfect again:
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
I may disregard service and lose my Reward, for it is a personal choice we all meet, it is that part of salvation we must work out with fear and trembling, whether we deny this or not is up to us, but it is presented as fact when we rightly divide the word of truth.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
When we become a born-again believer, we receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit of God and are sealed.
Can that seal ever be broken and if so what would one have to do to break it?
I believe we can break it by totally turning our backs on God. Many may think that such a person still will make it to heaven. Darkness cannot dwell in the light. They wouldn't feel at home in heaven if they have completely denied Jesus and God down here.
We know that God will always forgive, but there comes a point where we can push out the Holy Spirit and totally shut him out,for just so long, that we become incapable of asking for forgiveness.
I'll go back to the old favourite that is always quoted whenever this topic arises. Many try to say that such a person was never converted in the first place, but carefully look at the bolded part.
Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore to repentance THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ELIGHTENED - THOSE WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED THE GOOD THINGS OF HEAVEN AND SHARE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come-- and WHO THEN TURN AWAY FROM GOD.
It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame.
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Bloodbought
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Reading the below named thread led me to another question and another topic.
Taken from the thread “how much is "earnest of the Spirit"?”
Originally posted by Caretaker December 03, 2005 03:14 AM.
quote:
2 Cor. 1:
21: Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22: Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Ehesians 1:
13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14: Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
This is the earnest, the suriety, the absolute sealed guarantee from God of our redemption because of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit of God.
Excellent explanation by Caretaker.
When we become a born-again believer, we receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit of God and are sealed.
Can that seal ever be broken and if so what would one have to do to break it?
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