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Topic: The Way of Salvation

Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

We are justified solely through the Blood of Christ.

Romans 5:1,9 “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:” “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Man’s legal standing with Heaven is one of condemnation, and worthy of the righteous wrath of almighty God. Romans 3:23 “ For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God;”

Justification is the act of God whereby He accepts the blood of Christ as the complete and satisfying sacrifice for all human sin, propitiation, thus changing our legal status and establishing a means of reconciliation with man.

Believers are justified by the grace of God through faith. Titus 3:7 “That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” Romans 3:28 “ Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” We see that the status of man is changed from that of the condemned to that of an heir, one who is able to inherit. Thus man is reconciled to God through the propitiation of Jesus Christ and restored to full legal righteous standing.

If one is truly saved, justified, then the Holy Spirit will begin the process of Sanctification, with the evidence of the Fruit of the Spirit. The Believer will turn their heart more and more to God, and thus from the heart keep His Commandments.

The word sanctification means to be set apart. The Holy Spirit is endeavoring to make the believer holy (set apart from the world), and spiritual (set apart to reflect the character of God). This is being accomplished in four phases.

First, the believer at conversion in receiving Christ, is set apart from sin (forgiven) and set apart to Christ, this is preparational sanctification. Matt. 23:19 “Ye fools and blind; for which is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift.”

Second, the believer is set apart from the worldly realm and is set apart to the Heavenly realm, this is positional sanctification. John 17:21 “That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”

The third form of sanctification sets apart the believer from the “old man” (sin nature), to the “new man” (thirst after righteousness). This is practical sanctification. 1Thess. 5:23 “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The fourth form of sanctification sets apart from the stain of sin and sets us apart to be presented pure and without blemish before the judgment seat of Christ. This is prospective sanctification. Eph. 5:27 “That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

What could be clearer than the contrast of fleshly fruit and spiritual fruit found in Galations 5:
19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26
Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

And these are the commandments which we are to keep:

1 John 3:

23: And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24: And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

timspong

I totally agree with you, the thread is trashed, the Emissary from Jahbulon has done great harm to the doctrine of being saved by the blood of Christ, and being that it refusses to deal with any issues that it itself brought up, I am going to close it.

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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

For my salvation, what da I gotta do Drew>?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The free gift of salvation is before all men, but if they refuse to receive it they will not possess it.

BELIEVE is the key. Course if one thinks that salvation is AUTOMATICLY given to every individual regardless of their rejection of Christ Jesus, then that deceived one has not yet grasped the basic premice of the simple Gospel of Christ.

Those who believe receive, those who reject are condemned already.

John 3:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 1:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 10:

8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14: How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15: And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

timspong
Advanced Member
Member # 5240

posted

I think this thread has degraded pretty much to ashes, however, I will add this if I may.

1co 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

This together with His resurrection pretty much sums it up for me. Please lets leave satan out of this and let God deal with him.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong

Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

So what, commentators long since gone, who had not the seals opened up to them as we have today is what you rely on to do what with? Totally fail to answer my very simple questions?

Come on dude, you are the one walking in here all proud and mighty with your accusations, just answer the questions.

How is it that if Judas was the son of perdition, Paul is then teaching he has not yet come, but shall come showing himself to be God?

Christ called Peter Satan, and all His disciples 'evil', I don't see how that affects my question. YOu also failed miserably to address 'hell', not to mention your belief that men goto heaven with Christ, contrary to Scripture. I think I can agree with you that we have different doctrines, perhaps even different dieties, no, make that probably.

And what is it that I must do to save myself?

You put it out there, accusing me as an Emmisary of Jahbulon would be found doing [a huge compliment], and all your cunning snakelike trickory will not make me overlook your accusational avoidance, recondite furtive slurrs, or any other falseness you yourself set forth here Drew. For my salvation, what da I gotta do Drew>?

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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

JFB Commentary:

the son of perdition--a title applied besides to Judas (the traitor, John 17:12), and to none else. Antichrist (the second "beast" coming up out of the earth); therefore he shall at first be "like a lamb, while he speaks as a dragon" (Revelation 13:11); "coming in peaceably and by flatteries," "working deceitfully," but "his heart shall be against the holy covenant" (Daniel 11:21,23,28,30). Seeds of "the falling away" soon appear (1 Timothy 4:1-3), but the full development and concentration of these anti-Christian elements in one person are still to appear. Contrast the King of Zion's coming as JESUS: (1) righteous or just; (2) having salvation; (3) lowly; whereas Antichrist is: (1) "the man of (the embodiment of) sin; (2) the son of perdition; (3) exalting himself above all that is worshipped. He is the son of perdition, as consigning many to it, and finally doomed to it himself (Revelation 17:18,11). "He whose essence and inheritance is perdition" [ALFORD]. AS "the kingdom of heaven" is first brought before us in the abstract, then in the concrete, the King, the Lord Jesus; so here, first we have (2 Thessalonians 2:7) "the mystery of iniquity," then "the iniquitous one" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Doubtless "the apostasy" of Romanism (the abstract) is one of the greatest instances of the working of the mystery of iniquity, and its blasphemous claims for the Pope (the concrete) are forerunners of the final concentration of blasphemy in the man of sin, who shall not merely, as the Pope, usurp God's honor as vicegerent of God, but oppose God openly at last.

From John Gills Exposition:

the son of perdition;
since these are not only the Apollyon, the king of the bottomless pit, the destroyer, the cause of the perdition of thousands of souls, for the souls of men are their wares; but because they are by the righteous judgment of God appointed and consigned to everlasting destruction; the devil, the beast, and the false prophet, will have their portion together in the lake that burns with fire, (Revelation 20:10) the same character as here is given of Judas, the betrayer of Christ, (John 17:12) .

Matthew Henry:

A brand put upon Judas, as none of those whom he had undertaken to keep. He was among those that were given to Christ, but not of them. He speaks of Judas as already lost, for he had abandoned the society of his Master and his fellow-disciples, and abandoned himself to the devil’s guidance, and in a little time would go to his own place; he is as good as lost. But the apostasy and ruin of Judas were no reproach at all to his Master, or his family; for, [1.] He was the son of perdition, and therefore not one of those that were given to Christ to be kept. He deserved perdition, and God left him to throw himself headlong into it. He was the son of the destroyer, as Cain, who was of that wicked one. That great enemy whom the Lord will consume is called a son of perdition, because he is a man of sin, 2 Th. 2:3. It is an awful consideration that one of the apostles proved a son of perdition. No man’s place or name in the church, no man’s privileges or opportunities of getting grace, no man’s profession or external performances, will secure him from ruin, if his heart be not right with God; nor are any more likely to prove sons of perdition at last, after a plausible course of profession, than those that like Judas love the bag; but Christ’s distinguishing Judas from those that were given him (for ei me is adversative, not exceptive) intimates that the truth and true religion ought not to suffer for the treachery of those that are false to it, 1 Jn. 2:19. [2.] The scripture was fulfilled; the sin of Judas was foreseen of God’s counsel and foretold in his word, and the event would certainly follow after the prediction as a consequent, though it cannot be said necessarily to follow from it as an effect. See Ps. 41:9; 69:25; 109:8. We should be amazed at the treachery of apostates, were we not told of it before.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
Judas is the epitome of lost opportunity and greed. For more than three years he spent intimate time with the incarnate God yet he never came to see Him as anything more than the means to satisfy his selfish desires. He never came to really know His heart or to love Him and believe in Him. He saw Jesus perform countless miracles and heard Him forgive men of their sins but he never understood the significance of why Jesus was upon the earth. Instead, he saw Jesus as the keeper of a fantastic power that would usher in the golden age of Israel; he thought that he would reap material prosperity from his association with Him. When that did not happen he determined to benefit from Jesus anyway, so he agreed to betray Him for the miserly sum of 30 pieces of silver. In the end, when he felt remorse for betraying Jesus, his unspiritual mind never thought of humbling himself before God and beseeching God for forgiveness; instead, as a materialist, he tried to deal with his guilt in a material way by returning the money. After all those years of missing out on who Jesus was and what He was accomplishing Judas missed his last opportunity for salvation.

Matt. 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

You are'nt even going to acknowledge that you haven't addressed any of my questions are you Jahbulon Drew, which is why I narrowed the many down to only two.

Take your time. But at least do try to see if you can pull it off mr Emmusary.

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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

Acts 4:
12: Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

1 John 5:
11: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Eph. 2:
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 3:
21: But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

John 3:
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

I agree wholeheartedly Drew, the Scriptures can make one wise unto Salvation, for without them we wouldn't even know Salvation was a subject would we?

But it becomes appearant you either cannot or willnot answer my simple questions.

And with so many many words too.

It's a real simple question, why do you think Paul is still speaking about the coming son of perdition some 25 years after Judas had repented - if, as you say, Judas was the son of perdition? and What must I do for Salvation?

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epouraniois
unregistered

posted

BORN AGAIN,

Not to side with that Emmisarry from Jahbulon, as it is appearant that it won't tell what exactly verse used was inapropriate, but also cannot say what it is that I must do to be saved under it's doctrinal understanding, and that I know you have a love for the truth I wish to bring this to your attention:

Angels have been called “men”. (Genesis 18:2, two men and YHVH, the two men called angels in 19:1, 15; and Luke 24:4, called angels in John 20:12.). In Daniel 9:21, Gabriel is not only called a man, but his name means "man of God". Satan himself is referred to as a man in Isaiah 14:16 (ish).

As it is written of Satan, it shall be said of him, 'is this the man'...

Nevertheless, Jahbulon's Emmisary has not responded to any of my question, which is a good sign of why the personal attacks come stalking as they do.

Satan hates it when true truth is being discussed.

The last thing it wants is for the parts which are lies that God's children believe to be shown for what they are, namely lies from the pulpit, for you see, the pulpit is where Satan works from. Not from bars, not from the corner crack dealer, but from pulpits.

So anytime the strong meat of truth is being absorbed, the enemy will show up declaring others to be the enemy of God. I believe I have posted something you read on Biblical Demoniacs, showing how difficult it would be to quote and declare more accurately than the spirit of Python within the woman who followed Paul was quoting. This is no different.

Normal people who know anything at all about Scripture have a wonderful desire to teach, as well as to learn. Those who cannot learn, cannot teach either, but those having the spirit of agenda can only attack ack ack ack...

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Lets look at the Greek word for transformed:

3345 metaschematizo (met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo);
from 3326 and a derivative of 4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively, to apply (by accommodation):

2 Cor 11:14-15
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I think it is a wonderful thing that Emmisarries of Jahbulon would come here to seek those who lift up Christ, it is a great compliment to be so attacked and falsely accused with the broad stroked brush of kubeia.

To this one of Jahbulon I only can say:

"Thy blood be upon thy head; for thy actions hath testified against thee."

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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

The Holy Scriptures are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus - 2 Timothy 3:15.

Jesus described for us two ways, the broad one leading to destruction and the narrow one that leads to life. How can I know the way that leads to heaven and avoid the other?

The Gospel is the true way to life because it is God's message to humanity. People have invented several religions but all of them are false. The Bible warns us that 'the world through its wisdom did not know God' (1 Corinthians 1:21).

God's message is recorded in the Bible. It was written by chosen people who were guided by the Holy Spirit. We can trust the Bible because it is God's book. We can also be confident that it is a sure guide to Heaven. The Holy Scriptures 'are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus' (2 Timothy 3:15).

What about the church's tradition? Jesus warned us against tradition (Mark 7:1-13). He accused the Jews that they were 'making the word of God of no effect through your tradition.' They should have remained faithful to the Bible. Similarly, church tradition has changed the clear teaching of the Bible. For example, the Roman Catholic Church commends the use of statues even though the second commandment forbids the making of graven images and bowing down before them (Exodus 20:4).

What about religious teachers? We should listen to teachers as long as their teaching is faithful to the Bible. Be like the people of Berea who 'received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so' (Acts 17:11).

What about my personal insight and wisdom? You should eagerly seek God's way, not your own. 'Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding' (Proverbs 3:5).

The Bible is the only sure guide to heaven. The person who learns, believes and obeys its message can say: 'Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path' (Psalm 119:105).

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

BORN AGAIN
unregistered

posted

epouraniois wrote

quote:
Satan believes that Christ was raised from the dead, is he saved?

Can you answer it or not?

Caretaker answered

quote:
10: For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. {bold by BA}

while Lucifer-Satan may believe that Jesus rose from the dead, Lucifer-Satan was not a man; this salvation is for man, not for spirit beings.
So what Satan believes is irrelevant, in this case.

God bless, [Cross]

BORN AGAIN

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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

This is salvation, not a mind belief but a heart belief, it is salvation for our Brothers and Sisters in the Upper Room, for the 3000 who came to Christ on the Day of Pentecost, salvation for Paul on the Damascus Road, and salvation down through the centuries.

9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

HEART BELIEF!!!!

The New Testament was written to the Early Church. The Book of Romans was an Epistle to the Believers at Rome. The Believers at Rome were made up primarily of Gentile Believers.

Romans 1:
1: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2: (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3: Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4: And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8: First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
9: For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10: Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
11: For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
12: That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
13: Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

What you have just quoted there, is written specifically to the Jews. It regards their ability to realize their kingdom, with their king coming in their lifetime, as per the hope of Israel which is the main thrust of the entire Acts period.

We all know that they did not, and were destoyed, but even they shall be saved, and what will it be like when they are but life from the dead.

I didn't ask you what could a Jew do to be saved back then.

I specifically asked you what I, ME, MYSELF, must do to be saved in the time that now is.

Satan believes that Christ was raised from the dead, is he saved?

Can you answer it or not?

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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

Quote:
and how is it, you have written thousands of words now, and not one have I read that lifts up Christ?

You ARE the coolest ever. And as such, rather than responding to the questions put to you, you attack, what a suprize, not.

Eph 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Eph 6:13
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Maybe you will answer this one:

What do I need to do to be saved?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And you eponarious have written many thousands of words in presenting your misinterpretation of scripture with a specific declaration that those who oppose your misinterpretations are directly opposed to God.

There will be no soft words from me to those who twist and pervert God's Word.

How is one saved:

Romans 10:
8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

But you eponarius do not follow the God of the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ as revealed in the scriptures, but a Jesus of your own manufacture.

You do not follow the Jesus who said,"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

I stand squarely against those who wrest scripture and teach contrary to the Word of God.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

and how is it, you have written thousands of words now, and not one have I read that lifts up Christ?

You ARE the coolest ever. And as such, rather than responding to the questions put to you, you attack, what a suprize, not.

Eph 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Eph 6:13
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Maybe you will answer this one:

What do I need to do to be saved?

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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

We are to use righteous judgement and to stand against those who bring error, such as you are doing.

Righteous judgement
2 Peter 2:
1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3: And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5: And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6: And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7: And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11: Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13: And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14: Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16: But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17: These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

1 Cor. 5:
9: I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12: For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Cor. 2:
9: But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15: But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16: For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Timothy 3:
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Main Entry: doc•trine
Pronunciation: 'däk-tr&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin doctrina, from doctor
1 archaic : TEACHING, INSTRUCTION
2 a : something that is taught b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : DOGMA c : a principle of law established through past decisions d : a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations

Main Entry: re•proof
Pronunciation: ri-'prüf
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English reprof, from Middle French reprove, from Old French, from reprover
: criticism for a fault : REBUKE

Main Entry: 1re•buke
Pronunciation: ri-'byük
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): re•buked; re•buk•ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old North French rebuker
1 a : to criticize sharply : REPRIMAND b : to serve as a rebuke to
2 : to turn back or keep down : CHECK
synonym see REPROVE
- re•buk•er noun

Main Entry: cor•rec•tion
Pronunciation: k&-'rek-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : the action or an instance of correcting : as a : AMENDMENT, RECTIFICATION b : REBUKE, PUNISHMENT c : a bringing into conformity with a standard d : NEUTRALIZATION, COUNTERACTION <correction of acidity>
2 : a decline in market price or business activity following and counteracting a rise
3 a : something substituted in place of what is wrong <marking corrections on the students' papers> b : a quantity applied by way of correcting (as for adjustment of an instrument)
4 : the treatment and rehabilitation of offenders through a program involving penal custody, parole, and probation; also : the administration of such treatment as a matter of public policy -- usually used in plural
- cor•rec•tion•al /-shn&l, -sh&-n&l/ adjective

Main Entry: righ•teous
Pronunciation: 'rI-ch&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: alter. of earlier rightuous, alteration of Middle English rightwise, rightwos, from Old English rihtwIs, from riht, noun, right + wIs wise
1 : actin

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

I invite you to follow me around, showing all who can see it, how love pours forth from your words.

I guess that is the one exception Christ made, judge nothing before it's time, unless it is your righteous judgment, LOL.

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Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

No, you are just so wrong to think you have learned it all, and even more so to not be able to distinquish between phrases and titles.

There is only one named to perish. He is called the son of perdition. He will show himself to be God. He is the one spoken of by Daniel the prophet according to our Lord.

You quote saying all you have to do is believe, but Satan believes and he is the one called the son of perdition, meaning, the son destined to perish.

The repentent Judahs was not that one, and niether was Peter Satan when Christ turned to him and said, Get thee behind me Satan.

You do err. You have said and I quote:

quote:
We also believe that the doctrine of eternal security should lead to a life of love, gratitude and obedience to God.

Then you go on to show your love for me by attacking me? gag.

quote:
The Greek meaning of aionios ("eternal," "everlasting") is indisputable.

So wrong, the concordance is not a dictionary, as it only shows how and where other words are translated, but not a definition.

Eternity is not the subject of Scripture, but God's outworking with the age times are, and thereis much problems easily resolved by properly using age times rather than forever. for ex, Israel was to have the sabbath for ever, but they don't do they, no, because it should have been translated age times.

To say that the son of perdition is not likened to Satan is so much self or group hypnosys:

2Th 2:3
. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This can only be Satan:

Isa 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Like I said, it is God's outworking, God's redemptive plan of the ages, and nothing can seperate us from the love of God.

Satan beleives, yet is the only one named as to perish. Period.

Now you can judge us all or only me or anyone to be perishing, but unless I am deceived, you are not God, for it is written:

Mt 7:1
. Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Mt 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Mt 7:3
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

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http://www.carm.org/uni/eternal_hell.htm

The teaching that there is an eternal hell in which hordes of mankind will suffer eternal punishment can be a difficult doctrine to accept. We hear so much about God's infinite love and how He desires that all men be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). However, those who develop their theologies based upon the "gentle" side of God do so with an incomplete picture. Not only is God loving (1 John 4:8-10), gracious (Exo. 33:19; 1 Pet. 2:3), and merciful (Exodus 34:6; Psalm 67:1; James 5:11), but He is also holy (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8), just ( Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6), and hates sin (Psalm 5:5-6; Hab. 1:13). God punishes the sinner (Jer. 50:31; Ez. 44:12; Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:9; 2 Pet. 2:9; Heb. 10:29).
The Bible teaches that there is a fiery hell, a place that Jesus warned people about.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).

Eternal fire is real. Jesus said it was. In fact, Jesus spoke a great deal about hell. It is what Jesus came here to save us from.
There will be a Day of Judgment when all people will face God. Those who are not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross will be cast out into hell where they will undergo eternal punishment. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer. That is why the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) is so important, because it saves people from eternal damnation:

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life, (John 5:24).

Following are a few verses that show the eternality of the hell and punishment. God uses different phrases to describe the same thing.

* "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).
* "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
* These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

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posted

The term "son of perdition" is a descriptive phrase pertaining to an individual, son of destruction, and in error you are applying it to Satan which the Word of God does not do.

You need to stop wresting scriptures out of their proper context to support your bias. The clearr reading of scripture stands against your pet misinterpretations.

As with so many others who have gone astray in their arrogance and misinterpretation of the Word, you deny the doctrine of Hell. You are in good company with the heresy of the JWs, and the SDAs.

The Greek meaning of aionios ("eternal," "everlasting") is indisputable. It is used many times referring to eternal life in heaven. The same Greek word is also used to refer to eternal punishments (Mt 18:8, 25:41,46, Mk 3:29, 2 Thess 1:9, Heb 6:2, Jude 7). Even in one verse - Mt 25:46 - the word is used twice: once to describe heaven and once for hell. "Eternal punishment" means what it says. There is no way out of this without doing violence to Scripture.

The Jehovah's Witnesses render "punishment" as "cutting-off" in their bogus New World Translation in an attempt to establish their doctrine of annihilationism, but this is impermissible. If one is "cut off," that is a one-time event, not an eternal one. If I am cut off the phone with somebody, would anyone think to say I am "cut off eternally?" This word, kolasis, is defined in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament as "(eternal) punishment." Vine (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words) says the same thing, as does A.T. Robertson - all impeccable language scholars. Robertson writes:

There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life.

{Word Pictures in the New Testament, Nashville: Broadman Press, 1930, vol. 1, p. 202}

Since it is preceded by aionios, then it is punishment which continues forever (not non-existence which continues indefinitely). The Bible couldn't be more clear than it is. What more could be expected?

Likewise for the related Greek word aion, which is used throughout Revelation for eternity in heaven (e.g., 1:18, 4:9-10, 5:13-14, 7:12, 10:6, 11:15, 15:7, 22:5), and also for eternal punishment (14:11, 20:10). Some attempt to argue that Revelation 20:10 only applies to the devil, but they must explain Revelation 20:15: "and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." The "book of life" clearly has reference to human beings (cf. Rev 3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:11-14, 21:27). It is impossible to deny that fact.

Now on to some annihilationist "proof texts":

Mt 10:28: The word for "destroy" is apollumi, which means, according to Vine, "not extinction, but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being." The other verses in which it appears make this meaning clear (Mt 10:6, Lk 15:6,9,24, Jn 18:9). Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament or any other Greek lexicon would confirm this. Thayer was a Unitarian who probably didn't believe in hell. But he was also an honest, objective scholar, so he gave the proper meaning of apollumi, in agreement with all other Greek scholars. The same argument applies to Mt 10:39, Jn 3:16 (same word).

1 Cor 3:17: "Destroy" is the Greek, phthiro, meaning literally, "to waste away" (much like apollumi). When the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., the bricks were still there. it was not annihilated, but wasted. So shall it be with the wicked soul, which will be wasted or ruined, but not blotted out of existence. We see the meaning of phthiro clearly in every other instance of it in the NT (usu. "corrupt"), where in each case, the meaning is as I have said (1 Cor 15:33, 2 Cor 7:2, 11:3, Eph 4:22, Jude 10, Rev 19:2).

Acts 3:23 refers to simply being banished from the people of God, not annihilation. "Soul" just means a person here (cf. Deut 18:15-19, from which this passage is derived; see also Gen 1:24, 2:7,19, 1 Cor 15:45, Rev 16:3). We see this usage in English when someone says, "There was not a living soul there."

Rom 1:32 and 6:21-2, James 1:15, 1 Jn 5:16-17 either refer to physical or spiritual death, neither of which means "annihilation." The first is separation of body from soul, the second, separation of the soul from God.

Phil 1:28, 3:19, Heb 10:39: "Destruction" or "perdition" is the Greek apolia. Its meaning as "ruin" or "waste" is clearly seen in, e.g., Mt 26:8 and Mk 14:4 (a waste of ointment). In Rev 17:8, when it refers to the Beast, it states that the Beast is not wiped out of existence: "...They behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Heb 10:27-31 must be understood in harmony with Heb 6:2, which speaks of "eternal judgment" (mentioned above in discussion of aionios). The only way to synthesize all the data presented here is to adopt the eternal hellfire view. The counter-arguments, on the other hand, almost always have simple contrary explanations.

Heb 12:25,29: Is 33:14, a verse similar to 12:29, says, "... who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" The metaphor of God as a fire (cf. Acts 7:30, 1 Cor 3:15, Rev 1:14) is not the same as hellfire, which is spoken of as eternal or unquenchable, within which the wicked suffer consciously (Mt 3:10,12, 13:42,50, 18:8, 25:41, Mk 9:43-48, Lk 3:17).

2 Pet 2:1-21: In v.12, "utterly perish" is from the Greek kataphthiro. In the only other place in the NT where this word appears (2 Tim 3:8), it is translated as "corrupt" in KJV. If the annihilationist interpretation were applied to that verse, it would read, "...men of nonexistent minds..."

2 Pet 3:6-9: "Perish" is the Greek apollumi (see comment on Mt 10:28 above), so annihilation, as always, is not taught, by virtue of the simple meaning of the Greek word. Furthermore, in v.6, where it is said that the world "perished" in the flood, it is obvious that it was not annihilated, but wasted, consistent with the other interpretations above.

Orthodox Christians must defend their beliefs as commanded in Scripture (1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3). This is a loving act, if what we speak is indeed the truth. The proclamation of biblical and Christian truth often makes people angry, but that should not deter us from doing it. On this issue, Protestants (excluding Adventists), Catholics, and Orthodox all agree (in their official doctrinal statements), so those squabbles don't even enter into the discussion. That fact, along with the biblical evidence above, ought to be sufficient to put the matter to rest, for anyone who respects the Bible and Christian, apostolic Tradition.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
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posted

After reading your well sounding doctrine, I would point out the many things, but suffice to deal with one at a time, namely, no one has ascended to heaven but Christ, and even there He is hid in God, not manifestly availible, that when He shall appear, the members of the church which is His body shall appear with Him at His appearance - Col3.4;
secondly, hell only means the grave.

From the appendixes of Dr. Bullinger's Companion Bible

"SHEOL". HEBREW, SHEOL.

The first occurrence of this word is in Gen. 37:35, where it is rendered "grave". It occurs sixty-five times in the Hebrew of the Old Testament; and only by studying each passage by itself can the student hope to gather the Biblical usage of the word. All heathen or traditional usages are not only worthless, but mischievous. The following are all the passages where the word "Sheol" occurs, with the rendering in each passage indicated thus : 1 = grave, 2 = pit, 3 = hell.

1. Gen. 37:35.
3. Ps. 18:5.
1. Ecc. 9:10.
1. Gen. 42:38.
1. Ps. 30:3.
1. Song 8:6.
1. Gen. 44:29, 31.
1. Ps. 31:17.
3. Isa. 5:14.
2. Num. 16:30, 33.
1. Ps. 49:14, 14, 15.
3. Isa. 14:9 (marg. grave).
3. Deut. 32:22.
3. Ps. 55:15 (marg. grave).
1. Isa. 14:11.
1. 1Sam. 2:6.
3. Ps. 86:13 (marg. grave).
3. Isa. 14:15.
3. 2Sam. 22:6.
1. Ps. 88:3.
3. Isa. 28:15, 18.
1. 1Kings 2:6, 9.
1. Ps. 89:48.
1. Isa. 38:10.
1. Job 7:9.
3. Ps. 116:3.
1. Isa. 38:18.
3. Job 11:8.
3. Ps. 139:8.
3. Isa. 57:9.
1. Job 14:13.
1. Ps. 141.7.
1. Ezek. 31:15.
1. Job 17:13.
1. Prov. 1:12.
3. Ezek. 31:16, 17.
2. Job 17:16.
3. Prov. 5.5.
3. Ezek. 32:21, 27.
1. Job 21:13.
3. Prov. 7:27.
1. Hos. 13:14, 14.
1. Job 24:19.
3. Prov. 9:18.
3. Amos 9:2.
3. Job 26:6.
3. Prov. 15:11, 24.
3. Jonah 2:2 (marg. grave).
1. Ps. 6:5.
3. Prov. 23:14.
3. Hab. 2:5.
3. Ps. 9:17.
3. Prov. 27:20.
3. Ps. 16:10.
1. Prov. 30:16.

As meaning "THE grave," it is to be distinguished from keber, A grave, or, burying-place (from kabar, to bury, first occurrence Gen. 23:4) : and bor, a pit, generally hewn in the rock, hence used of a cistern (Gen. 37:20) or a dungeon, &c., when dry. (See note on the word "well" in Gen. 21:19.)

THE SYNONYMOUS WORDS FOR "HELL", ETC.

"Hell" is the English rendering of two different Greek words in the N.T.

The English word is from the Anglo-Saxon hel, Genitive case helle = a hidden place, from the Anglo-Saxon helan = to hide.

It is in the N.T. used as the translation of two Greek words :--

I. Gehenna. Gr. geenna. This is the transliteration of the Heb. Gai' Hinnom, i.e. the Valley of Hinnom or "the Valley" of [the sons of] Hinnom, where were the fires through which children were passed in the worship of Moloch.

In the O.T. Tophet was the Heb. word used, because it was a place in this valley.

In our Lord's day the idolatry had ceased, but the fires were still continually burning there for the destruction of the refuse of Jerusalem. Hence, geenna was used for the fires of destruction associated with the judgment of God. Sometimes, "geenna of fire". See 2Kings 23:10. Isa. 30:33. Jer. 7:31, 32; 19:11-14.

Geenna occurs 12 times, and is always rendered "hell", viz. Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33. Mark 9:45, 47. Luke 12:5. Jas. 3:6.

II. Hades. Gr. hades, from a (privative) and idein, to see (Ap. 133. I. i); used by the Greeks for the unseen world.

The meaning which the Greeks put upon it does not concern us; nor have we anything to do with the imaginations of the heathen, or the traditions of Jews or Romanists, or the teachings of demons or evil spirits, or of any who still cling to them.

The Holy Spirit has used it as one of the "words pertaining to the earth", and in so doing has "purified" it, "as silver tried in a furnace" (see notes on Ps. 12:6). From this we learn that His own words "are pure", but words belonging to this earth have to be "purified".

The Old Testament is the fountain head of the Hebrew language. It has no literature behind it. But the case is entirely different with the Greek language. The Hebrew Sheol is a word Divine in its origin and usage. The Greek Hades is human in its origin and comes down to us laden with centuries of development, in which it has acquired new senses, meanings, and usages.

Seeing that the Holy Spirit has used it in Acts 2:27, 31 as His own equivalent of Sheol in Psalm 16:10, He has settled, once for all, the sense in which we are to understand it. The meaning He has given to Sheol in Ps. 16:10 is the one meaning we are to give it wherever it occurs in the N.T., whether we transliterate it or translate it. We have no liberty to do otherwise, and must discard everything outside the Word of God.

The word occurs eleven times (Matt. 11:23; 16:18. Luke 10:15; 16:23. Acts 2:27, 31. 1Cor. 15:55. Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14); and is rendered "hell" in every passage except one, where it is rendered "grave" (1Cor. 15:55, marg. "hell").

In the R.V. the word is always transliterated "Hades", except in 1Cor. 15:55 (where "death" is substituted because of the reading, in all the texts, of thanate for hade), and in the American R.V. also.

As Hades is the Divine Scriptural equivalent of Sheol, further light may be gained from Ap. 35, and a reference to the 65 passages there given. It may be well to note that while "Hades" is rendered "hell" in the N.T. (except once, where the rendering "the grave" could not be avoided), Sheol, its Hebrew equivalent, occurs 65 times, and is rendered "the grave" 31 times (or 54%); "hell" 31 times (4 times with margin "the grave", reducing it to 41.5%); and "pit" only 3 times (or 4.5 %).

"The grave", therefore, is obviously the best rendering, meaning the state of death (Germ. sterbend, for which we have no English equivalent); not the act of dying, as an examination of all the occurrences of both words will show.

1. The rendering "pit" so evidently means "the grave" that it may at once be substituted for it (Num. 16:30, 33. Job 17:16).

2. The rendering "the grave" (not "a grave", which is Hebrew keber or bor) exactly expresses the meaning of both Sheol and Hades. For, as to direction, it is always down: as to place, it is in the earth: as to relation, it is always in contrast with the state of the living (Deut. 32:22-25 and 1Sam. 2:6-8); as to association, it is connected with mourning (Gen. 37:34, 35), sorrow (Gen. 42:38. 2Sam. 22:6. Ps. 18:5; 116:3), fright and terror (Num. 16:27, 34) mourning (Isa. 38:3, 10, 17, 18), silence (Ps. 6:5; 31:17. Ecc. 9:10), no knowledge (Ecc. 9:5, 6, 10), punishment (Num. 16:29, 34. 1Kings 2:6, 9. Job 24:19. Ps. 9:17 (R.V. = re-turned), corruption (Ps. 16:10. Acts 2:27, 31); as to duration resurrection is the only exit from it (Ps. 16:11. Acts 2:27, 31; 13:33-37. 1Cor. 15:55. Rev. 1:18; 20:5, 13, 14).
III. Tartaroo (occurs only in 2Pet. 2:4) = to thrust down to Tartarus, Tartarus being a Greek word, not used elsewhere, or at all in the Sept. Homer describes it as subterranean (cp. Deut. 32:22, which may refer to this). The Homeric Tartarus is the prison of the Titans, or giants (cp. Heb. Rephaim, Ap. 25), who rebelled against Zeus.

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epouraniois
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If the son of perdition is Judas, the same Judas who repented, then why is it, that some 25 years later they are still awaiting the son of perdition's arrival?

2Th 2:3
. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

You friend, are simply believing whatever you have been taught, but the time now is at hand for you to begin to question those things that are contrary to Scripture, for there is only one named to perish in all of Scripture, and you can bet that that one is a believer!

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We believe that those who have by faith trusted Jesus Christ as Lord and
Savior are eternally secure and can never lose their salvation. We further
believe it is the privilege of all believers to be assured of their salvation; that
this assurance rests not in themselves, but in the promises of God; that the
Scriptures teach that such as are truly regenerate, being born of the Spirit,
will not utterly fall away and finally perish, but are kept by the power of God
unto the day of salvation. We also believe that the doctrine of eternal
security should lead to a life of love, gratitude and obedience to God. John
6:39; 10:27-29; Philippians 1:6; I Peter 1:3-5; I John 2:19; Romans 11:29.

We believe that at the moment of death, believers pass immediately into the
presence of Christ and remain there in joyful fellowship with Him until the
resurrection of the body at His second coming, after which they will be
forever with the Lord in glory. We also believe that at the moment of death,
the unsaved descend to Hell where they are kept under punishment until their
bodies are raised at the final judgment, after which they will suffer everlasting
conscious punishment separated from the presence of the Lord. Acts 17:31;
Matthew 25:31-46; II Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23; Revelation 20:11-15;
John 14:1-3; 3:16; II Thessalonians 1:7-10; Revelation 21:1-5.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

The "son of perdition" is Judas:

John 6:
70: Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71: He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Your overwhelming embracing of Universalism has caused you to employ eisegesis,

Main Entry: eis·ege·sis
Pronunciation: "I-s&-'jE-s&s, 'I-s&-"
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural eis·ege·ses /-"sEz/
Etymology: Greek eis into (akin to Greek en in) + English exegesis -- more at IN
: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas -- compare EXEGESIS

You need to open your heart and use exegesis of scripture within its proper Biblical context.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

The Eternal Security of the Believer

Is it scriptural proof, or is it fiction? Among professing Christians, there is a division on this subject. There are some who believe that once saved, they would put it, always saved. There are others which say, you could be saved today and lost tomorrow. The Armenians would take that view. The Calvinist would take the former view, once saved always saved.

For myself, I am always distrustful of schools for interpretation, and I would say that we who are as the noble Bereans, that is to say, we who are testing all we hear and say by the Word of God, always hesitate to attach ourselves to any school. We will extract all we can from any thought, but the final test is, What sayeth the Lord in Scripture. And so it is with this subject, and with that, let us bring it before the bar of God, and see if it teaches one or the other. We had better start off, with this fact, that the Scripture teaches collaboration in three tenses, Past Present Future.
PAST – starting when sin is removed
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.
PRESENT - our old man is crucified with him, is freed from sin’s power
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
FUTURE - gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Freed from the power of sin, Freed from the presence of sin, Because one day we are going to be conformed to the image of His Son and we are going to be spotless and holy as He is. Now if one believes that you can be Saved today and Lost tomorrow, you can heartily ascent to the past aspect of sin. Yes, you can say, I am being saved from its power, but I’m not infallible, I might slip and fall. And if I slip and fall, I can possibly lose Salvation. So they cannot believe, really, in a future Salvation for themselves, because they might miss it, they might slip and fall and its gone forever. Now that seems a pity doesn’t it, seeing as how Salvation is Lost if that is so. Well, we need to turn to the Word of God, and see if our initial supposition is founded in Truth or Fancy.

Col 2:13 “…having forgiven you all trespasses”. Note the past tense. If all means all, then this means past sins, present sins, future sins. So if All sins have been Forgiven, is it possible that any one sin can cause a loss of Salvation? If God says He has forgiven All sins, and we remember God’s Principle, He says that not only does He Forgive, but He Forgets.

What about that?
“I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more” (Jer. 31:34). If God can Forgive and Forget, and Put them behind His back, and all of those glorious Figures in Scripture, then how is it that one can trip that believer up and make that believer insecure about God’s Infinite Loving Mercy, Infinite Wisdom and Grace, His Unbounded Will, and take hold of the idea that the believer can forfeit Salvation?

What I thought we could do, is bring a number of Scriptures together and then think of them as a whole, where we can come together and see that we can honestly come to the Lord’s Salvation plan for us, and then Lose it through any fall or slip of our own.

In John chapter 10, starting at verse 27, we read, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and They Shall Never Perish,” (does that look as though they can, well no – because The Savior says they can’t; They Shall Never Perish, and not only that) “neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand”. (And the next verse says they can’t be plucked out of the Father’s hand)
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Well, if that isn’t a guarantee, then I don’t know what is! Three statements there. Three unambiguous statements saying They Shall Never Perish, strongly brought before us by the Savior Himself:
They are in my hands
They are in my Father’s hands
They cannot be plucked out
No exceptions made, He didn’t say they shall never perish until they slip and fall. Let’s now turn and see what Peter says, 1 Peter v. 3:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively (Living) hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance Incorruptible, and Undefiled, and that Fadeth not away, Reserved in heaven for you, Who are Kept”

(Kept by who? Kept by You? Oh no, that wouldn’t be good),
“Kept by the Power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

Kept, or guarded until the last time. That is future, at the Resurrection. So there is no doubt in Peter’s mind that some could go on for a short time, or even for a long time and then slip and lose Salvation. They’re kept by the power of God right on till the End. Now lets go to Philippians 1 v 3. Paul is thanking them for receiving him and all their loyal fellowship, and he says:

“I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing”, Now, what’s is “This Very Thing”? Well, its this:
“that He (God) which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” Look at the word perform, “will finish it”.
He who has begun is going to finish.
Well, Can God not finish His work if you have fallen away? Well, that can’t be true can it? God doesn’t do His Work by Halves, I think that what some have forgotten, is that the whole thing from start to finish is God’s work and not the believer’s.
He is the One who Saves
He is the One who Begins
And He is the One who Finishes

He doesn’t say, ok, now I’ve started you off and now you can go on on your own strength, oh no, Never. He who has begun is going to finish His Glorious Work. And Loved ones, if that wasn’t so, can’t you see, that the Plan that is made known in the Bible would never come to its Glorious Finish. It would be ruined, because some, who the Lord had Redeemed, just wouldn’t be there. Lets go back to the words of the Savior in John 17:11:

“And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are”.
Keep them, Guard them Father
Through thine own Name

Now, do you think that anyone is going to snatch Salvation away when they are guarded like that? Paul and Peter says you are guarded till that day of Glory. The Savior says the same thing.

“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept”,
He had kept them, He has kept them, and He keeps telling them that, they’ve been guarded, they are kept:

“and None of them is Lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled”.

He’s referring to the 12, primarily, but surely this is true for all that are His. The Lord has guarded, the Father has guarded, None of His are Lost. But that’s not all, come down to v 24:

“Father, I will”, Now, I can’t say that, I can’t go to the Father and say “I will” (see the 5 I wills of Satan in Isaiah 14:13-14), I can’t make demands like that! I have to come to the Father in supplication before the Great and Mighty God and pray for His Will, but this is The One Who Is Equal, Who Has Said, “I and the Father are One”.
“Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world".

This is the Will of The Son! now, are any going to drop out? are any going to slip and be turned away from God’s Glory who He has already foreordained and now making clear to all whom He Loves? Of course not, that just wouldn’t do, Christ says, All that thou hast given me will be with me and not one will be lost and they will see my Glory. Is that prayer of the Savior going to fail?
Surely this prayer cannot fail, “I have kept them”, and has His Power decreased, is He not able to complete His Plan for His children? Of course not.
Jesus Christ the same
yesterday,
and today,
and forever. All the true seed,
He has kept,
He is keeping,
and He they will be with Him, every single one. You can be sure that this is absolutely true, Praise His Name. lets go to Romans chapter 8, where we find the Godhead and His Love, who says:

“If God be for us, who can be against us?” Well, its not even worth considering is it? if you’ve got Almighty God for you, on your side, and that is then expanded, in verse 26 telling us we’ve got the Holy Spirit helping our weaknesses. He’s on our side and He’s making intercession for us, then later on not only the Holy Spirit, but the Lord in Glory.

Now those who believe that they can be Saved today and Lost tomorrow, they’ve got the Holy Sprit constantly interceding for them, AND they’ve got the risen Savior who’s doing the same thing, and then apparently that isn’t sufficient to Keep them. They can fall into some sin and then lose everything. Do you believe that? I can’t, I can’t, because I believe this is Absolutely Effective, and not only that, the Glorious challenge at the closing of this chapter would not be true if you could be saved then lost finally through our own failure. Paul says of his persuasion in verse 38:

“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord”.

Now wouldn’t it be Stupid to say, after all that language, that well, I might sin and lose God’s Salvation? Well lets take that and take comfort from it.
NOTHING can separate you from God’s Infinite Love, for God Is Love, and He is not the God of the Dead but of the Living, and not only that, but if your life is Hid in Christ With God, then NOTHING, NOONE, can take you, not even you yourself. Well, where does it say that you might ask, lets turn to Colossians 3, the first verses:

“Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory”.

Well then, what’s all this talk about losing something, because it is certainly safely hid With Christ IN God. But there must be something that says I can lose something, Yes, yes, there is something you can lose, but it can’t be speaking of the same thing, for God cannot contradict Himself. Lets go to Titus, where we find written to us who are Gentiles,
“Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began”.

He has promised us before the world began a sure hope, something we can most certainly hold and keep as our own truth, because if it is His Truth being made known to us, then it is our Truth as well. Now there are different spheres of blessings in the Bible, and although you CANNOT lose your Salvation, you can lose your prize. There is much to look at regarding the difference between your Salvation and continuing on in Faith for the receiving of a special Prize, or you can "draw back" so as to lose this Prize, but the Prize is not your Salvation.
Salvation is a gift,
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.not of yourselfs, lest any man should boast," (Eph 2:8-9)
The Prize is the Prize, it is the something in addition to your free gift of Salvation,
"the free gift is of many offenses unto justification", we read in Romans 5:15,16,18.

And you certainly want to continue on and receive the Prize, to be standing and hearing the words "Well done My good and faithful servant". Now, there is talk of working out your own Salvation, and this has to do with continuing on in your Faith and receiving the Prize. Work out your Salvation is to work for your Prize, or draw back and cast it away for some short term frill, casting off God for the moment. And THAT friends, is something every individual must seek to work out INDIVIDUALLY, to "work out your own Salvation".

This is a very, very short study on this Most Glorious Subject, which is nothing less than the Goal of God's Redemptive Plan for the Ages. A very short look into this vast subject, for there is so, so very much, much more to look at, but I thought this might help some come to terms with the scare tactic, doom and gloom type teachers who have something else on their minds, (usually your money), because it just is not so beloved. God Love You More Than You Know And More Than You Can Know.

In His Grace, to His Glory. Amen.

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epouraniois
unregistered

posted

Why would you be taking the accusitorial and judgmental position of Satan?

Have ye not read?

Mt 27:3
Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Mt 11:24
But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Even some who are saved are judged more harshly than they of Sodom and G.

What does that tell you?

Don't you know that it is the angels who fell? That they fell before flesh man ever walked under the sun?

Furthermore, the Bible never speaks of eternity. Adding your own ideas to attack me is highly questionable at best.

My suggestion, ask why I would say a thing, rather than like Satan, attack that which your learning sees as different.

The word damnation, I suggest you look it up, because it is the same word as judgment, and judgment is what we all look for, for He is not imputing sin, and where there is no law, there is no sin. Have ye not read?

Don't you know dear child, that if God forgives those who murdered Him, and says none has He lost but the son of perdition, then all are saved but the son of perdition, who is Satan? Don't you know there is nothing you can do to deserve it? Itis a free gift, but there is something you can lose, but it is called reward, prize, or crown, not the Salvation of God. It is the very purpose of His plan for the ages. don't you know this?

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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

epouraniois:

It IS written that none has He lost but the son of perdition.

When people fall from grace, they fall from the grace principle.

Many are called, but few are chosen for the reward of the overcomer status.

The works shall be burned, but the soul shall be saved, so as by fire.

Those who overcome shall not be HURT of the second death. God is a consuming fire.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

False!!!!!!

THOSE THAT THOU HAST GIVEN ME!!!

John 17:
7: Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8: For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9: I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10: And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11: And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12: While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
(The 11 are not lost, but Judas is lost)

13: And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14: I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15: I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16: They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17: Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18: As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19: And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20: Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21: That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22: And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24: Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25: O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26: And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Rev. 20:
10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

2 Peter 2:

9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11: Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Matt. 25:

41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It is ONLY through faith alone in Christ alone that one is saved, and those who reject Christ have rejected His propitiation and are eternally condemned.

Universal salvation is contrary to the Word and those who wrest scriptures to substantiate it are deceived.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

quote:
what is the way of salvation in 13 sentences or less

Why don't you just ask God to write a shorter letter, aye?

13 or less, what a weird number, how 'bout 12?

The first redemptive movement
The will of the Father
The work of the Son
The seal of the Holy Spirit
The plan of the age-times
The all in all things
It has been said, 'It is finished'
It shall be said, 'It is done'

2Cor 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Jn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Jn 10:29
My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

Jn 10:30
I and [my] Father are one.

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epouraniois
unregistered

posted

You can believe that God needs your help to bring forth to conclusion His redemptive plan for the ages, but it is not written.

It IS written that none has He lost but the son of perdition.

When people fall from grace, they fall from the grace principle.

Many are called, but few are chosen for the reward of the overcomer status.

The works shall be burned, but the soul shall be saved, so as by fire.

Those who overcome shall not be HURT of the second death. God is a consuming fire.

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BORN AGAIN
unregistered

posted

and, also, if the way of salvation is that difficult to explain (though I understand that you are trying to do, add all the benefits that you have "read about" in the Bible, but as fishing bait, this does give the impression that the way of salvation, or the way to salvation was long and very complicated.

I agree with timspong (sp??), who said in a post that salvation of Jesus Christ was simple, and should confound the wisdom of the wise.

I think as long as it is said to prospective readers that the way of and to salvation is itself very short and simple.

But, to ask then, if a person only had 13 sentences to write the answer (one each for the 13 tribes of Jacob-Israel) (or one each for the 13 disciples by including Matthias); what would your answer be to "what is the way of salvation in 13 sentences or less"?

God bless, [Cross]

BORN AGAIN

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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

His was the propitiation for all, but like any gift it must be received. Those who reject Christ are condemned already. There is NO UNIVERSAL salvation for those who reject Christ Jesus.

You wrest scripture into false doctrine.

John 3:
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rev. 20:
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Romans 3:
21: But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Quote:

Not only that, but there's the other side to this too:

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood

And this word 'propitiation' is the word 'atonement', and that's just what we all need. Freely saved by His grace, freely saved by His atonement. WE have been redeemed, and now what we need is cleansing from sin, and this is His blood, that atoning which cleanses us from all sin. And all this work is by His blood, God set this propitiation forth through faith in His blood.

Let's do get this clear in our mind. We need cleaning. We need freeing. And it's this glorious work of the Saviour that does this for us, it's the shed blood of Christ Jesus that has done this, and not for us only, but for the whole world, as it is written.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You wrest the scriptures in a vain attempt to prove your premice, but the result is contrary to the Word.

The means to good biblical theology is to examine the whole of scriptures without bias so that proper and correct doctrines can be determined. Of course, no one is without bias. But, that does not mean that we should give up trying to be objective. We must endeavor to let God's word lead us rather than our emotionalism and personal preferences make decisions for us, especially about doctrine. At least, that should be the goal.

What matters is what God has revealed in His word. So, are there scriptures in the Bible that plainly state that not all are saved? Yes, there are.

* "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14).

* "For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14).

* "And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27).

* "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27).

These verses are plain and clear. Not all are saved; in fact, few are. Whether or not we think this makes God a failure, or that it makes us sad, or upsets us, isn't really that important. If the Bible says it, that settles it. What is left is to make adjustments in our understanding and feelings in order to bring more in line with what God has stated.

After all, we do not know the mind of God. His ways are higher than our ways. I prefer to accept what it says than feel my way through theology.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

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1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

and if He wasn't perfect holy and undefiled, He couldn't be a savior, in fact, He wouldve needed a savior. our Christian faith is therefore not based upon anything which we might do, but it is wholly founded upon a person. The person of Christ, for no other foundation can be laid than is laid, which is Christ. of course the climax of His work was not in His life, but in His death. when we look upon the finished work of Christ, it becomes clear that the outworking of the plan of redemption is founded and centered upon His death. Yes, He was born to lay down His life, and we are told there was a reason for it.

The reason for it is very difficult to accept, but if we want truth, we should have to face certain facts. And these facts are wrapped up in this little word 'sin'. Yould hardly think one would have to prove a thing like sin, when we look around at the home, the nation, the world situation, what is the cause of it all? These problems can't stem from something that's good. They must come from something that's bad. Some frailty somewhere. Ecc 7:29 tells us, "God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions".

The Bible tells me this: "by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin" Rom 5:12. The absolute universality of death is proof that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Now Death is an enemy. Whatever it is, we know that it isnot something good, for I read in the Scriptures that the last enemy to be destroyed is Death, and Death is the result of sin. God said to Adam that in the day of eating of that tree, ...surely die. Doesn't matter if you think the story literally or figuratively, there it is, there was the reason sin entered the world and it was through disobeydiance. And Death has passed on to all men. We, all of us, are suffering from this malady whether we like it or not.

So it is this great thing called sin which God deals with in His Love. But not only in His Love, but He deals with it in His Righteousness. God could overlook sin, but in so doing, being the great moral governor of the universe He might not be righteous in so doing. If anybody could one day point the finger of scorn at Him, could say and so prove that He had been sinful in any way, then the whole scheme and plan of redemption would collapse.

When I come to the book of the Romans I am assured there that when He justifies, when He saves, when He puts sin away, His Holiness has not been comprimised in the least. He is Just, the Righteous One, and yet, He is the Justifier of all that believeth on Him. He is the Justifier right now, while we yet live. And, When I come to the Scriptures, I find "He hath poured out his soul unto death, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors".

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

I believe that we should know why the Scriptures place so much emphasis on the shed blood of Christ, and that if we should err here, we should err everywhere. The prelude; God would not allow His people to eat blood in any form whatsoever, in Lev 17:10 I read, "And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people". And v11 states, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood".

When I read then, that "he hath poured out his soul unto death", I am reading a Figurative way of saying that He laid down His life, He poured out His life principle. Christ alone had a unique death, unique because He was sinless, and He would never have died being without sin, and yet, He did die.

He dileberately laid down His life for you and for me, He somehow took upon Himself our sin, He was made sin for us.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I read that if sin is ever going to be put away, it has got to be born. It has got to be born of somebody. Now either I bear my own sin and die and eternal death, or He bears my sin for me and dies in my place in stead. Sin has got to be paid for, for the wages of sin is death. So He took upon Himself our sin, He paid the penalty for man's sin. "In the day that thou eateth, thou shalt surely die". Christ who created all things has come providing the gift of God, eternal life through the payment of our sin on that tree at Calvery.

let's see what the Word Itself actually teaches:

1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

He bore our sins, and we were healed by His stripes.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I am going to read later on, that He was reckoned with the transgressors. NOW, that word 'reckoned' is this word 'impute'. The very fact that sin will never be imputed unto us is because of the fact that it was imputed to Him. That's the point. He bore it instead.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

There it is, He was bruised, wounded for our tresspasses, not His, for He hasn't got any, and by His stripes we are healed that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Our sin was imputed to Him, He bore it, and all those expressions are saying something of the Love of God in this redemptive work on the tree that somehow our sin is not imputed, for it is imputed unto Him who knew no sin. Can you now see the reason for our call to walk worthy to that which we are called? Somehow, He bore our sin, "the Lamb of God,which taketh away the sin of the world", Joh 1:29.

That is why He had to die, so He could do that, take away the sin of the world. That is why so much given to that poured out blood, that He could take away our sin for us that we might be presented Holy. We, sinners,who deserve to die, but shall one day share in the Glory of Life, because He died for the unGodly.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now (knowingly) justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. *By His glorified resurrected Life, Justified by His death and resurrection, Justified by the Just and the Justifier who shed His blood, poured out His life for us, made righteous by His atoning blood*.

Justification. The thing we all need, that we must have, is based soley on the the blood of Christ, the shed blood on the tree, and in Eph's I read that it is not by anythhing man might do because man might boast if that were the case. No, He has thought of everything, written it down for our learning. Speaking the end from the beginning,that He would pour out His blood for our sin, for your's and for mine, indeed for the whole world:

And that is the one way, the only way a sinner can be made Holy, because of the shed blood of Christ.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins

This word 'forgiveness' literally means 'to set free' and is translated as such in the Gospels. It's the deliverance from bondage. What does sin do? It enslaves us, and it also defiles us. One thing that atoning blood of Christ does for us is that it snaps the chains. It breaks the bondage. The glorious work of the Son of God was only in picture in the OT, but there it was, bringing them out of bondage, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed", the Saviour says, Joh 8:36 . When the Lord Christ Jesus makes one free, it's the real thing. That's what His precious blood does right now for all those who believe in Him. His blood breaks the bondage of the old man nature wherefore He can put on the new man which is renewed day by day.

Not only that, but there's the other side to this too:

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood

And this word 'propitiation' is the word 'atonement', and that's just what we all need. Freely saved by His grace, freely saved by His atonement. WE have been redeemed, and now what we need is cleansing from sin, and this is His blood, that atoning which cleanses us from all sin. And all this work is by His blood, God set this propitiation forth through faith in His blood.

Let's do get this clear in our mind. We need cleaning. We need freeing. And it's this glorious work of the Saviour that does this for us, it's the shed blood of Christ Jesus that has done this, and not for us only, but for the whole world, as it is written.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Get that really good now, you are not your own, you are bought with a price and that price is the shed blood on the tree, the blood of Christ the Saviour, the Redeemer, the purchaser of the purchased possession.

Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? See where this comes from? This humblness of ours is what results from the acknowledgment in our being purchased by the blood of Christ. We are not our own! Like it or not, we are born slaves, slaves unto sin.

But the Lord Jesus Christ has come to free us. He has purchased us by His blood. He has purchased every single human being whether they do yet know this or not, He has done it, and has additionally said that none has He lost but that original one we know as Satan and the devil, the son of perdition;

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

After we heard, we were sealed. THat is, we knew we were sealed when we heard the good news of our Salvtion, at that time we could know that we were sealed. We could not know before we heard and believed, and likewise, those who do not yet believe cannot know that they are sealed by His blood wherein He has purchased them. And for how long were we sealed? "Until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory".

What about those who do not believe? I read that they too have been purchased, for He died for the ungodly even when they were yet in their sins. But they do not have the benefit of having Christ put on the new man now. No, they shall have to wait, wait until the resurrection, wherein the Lord has yet more of His glorious plan to save all His children waiting to unfold, of which we read a part of it is that they be taught by the priests of Israel, who will fulfill their commission to Baptise the nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the HS as per Math28.

I read that they will be resurrected unto their own shame rather than unto what is called "a better resurrection", and an 'out resurrection', the 'first resurrection' which is unto life in that age time. I read that in resurrection all will believe, every tongue will confess that Christ is Lord. Don't you all read that too? That every knee shall bow, and every tongue will confess? Do we not know this to be true?

He came to die, to make atonement, to justify the ungodly that they might have life and one day believe on His Name. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. He manifestly came to save sinners from the bondage which is death. He purchased even the ungodly with His blood.

Yes, the Lord has made 'better promises', built upon 'better things' for all that believe, but this in no way undermines His plan to save all that was lost. Only one I read of, who is already judged and named. That one, being Satan, who was already present and fallen in the Garden of God, and an enemy, the only enemy of God.

Throughout the NT, the apostles write to believers and firstly to those who might believe. They are first preached to about the Salvation of God, and upon believing they are immediately moved forward from this foundational understanding to be instructed in those 'better things' which have to do with 'reward' and 'prize'. And they are told that this reward is something in addition to the Salvation of God, that this reward is a prize for overcomers who endure unto the end as did the Christ in spiritual maturity, and that this prize can furthermore be lost, but that is another study, not that this one here is anywhere near complete, because it is not. God has said much much much more concerning His redemptive plan of the ages, in that, He made atonement for the sins of the whole world:

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

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